New motorway verge maintenance & planting: non existent!

Amtmann

Over two months ago I contacted the NRA with a query/complaint regarding roadside maintenance after construction of new lengths of HQDC/motorway.

My main complaint was that in contrast to the M7 from Portlaoise to Naas, the M8 and M9, from what I've seen, have been very scantily planted on the embankments, which are infested with weeds and stringy brown grass which is never cut. Needless to say, it's not a pleasant sight.

To date I've received a two-sentence acknowledgment from them that my email has been received and forwarded, yadda yadda yadda. That was 3 weeks ago.

Does anyone know if the NRA is to plant more trees and shrubs along the embankments of all the interurbans? In my view Portlaoise to Naas (M7) and Watergrasshill to Dunkettle (M8), as well as newer parts of the Cork SRR are well tended to/planted, and look aesthetically pleasing. What of the rest of the motorways?

Random

Honestly I couldn't care less how the flowers luck - they've got a lot more work to do on most roads before that would even be a consideration for me.

Amtmann

Random wrote: »

Honestly I couldn't care less how the flowers luck - they've got a lot more work to do on most roads before that would even be a consideration for me.

In the grand scheme of things, trees and shrubs don't cost all that much, and they provide a lot: They improve a road's aesthetic; they conceal the roads they're planted along; they block noise; they prevent adjacent areas from being taken over by weeds; and they provide nesting sites for birds - an important boon when one considers that acres of hedgerow and habitat are obliterated during construction works.

I just feel that when you do something, you should do it properly.

Nuttzz

im sure this is something they can come back to, the key priority should be get the interurbans finished, they can be tarted up later when the budget allows for it

Chris_533976

Build it first, plant it later.

tenandtracer

That's the problem with this country - bad planting!

Zoney

Trees also act as a wind barrier and help hold the banks together on cuttings and embankments.

There's really no excuse for not sorting out verges on newer motorways - the arguments for planting the verges of earlier motorways still apply. It's not like they even have to worry about the median now on the new sections!

Carawaystick

the nra have a big ( hundred or so pages) document of what to plant beside new roads, trees are only to be used back aways frowm the road to avoid falling trees and leaves causing hazards from what I remember.

http://www.nra.ie/Publications/DownloadableDocumentation/Environment/file,3481,en.pdf

Amtmann

Carawaystick wrote: »

the nra have a big ( hundred or so pages) document of what to plant beside new roads, trees are only to be used back aways frowm the road to avoid falling trees and leaves causing hazards from what I remember.

http://www.nra.ie/Publications/DownloadableDocumentation/Environment/file,3481,en.pdf

There's a bit in there about the "potential" offered by embankments to plant a mosaic style of trees and shrubs. Would I be naive to presume that the NRA will indeed plant these banks in the years ahead?

Run_to_da_hills

There is a lot more the NRA can do besides planting trees and shrubs. IE they can concentrate on removing the evil cable barriers throughout the country that are known to decapitate motorcyclists and replace them with more suitable concrete medians. I appreciate the good job they are doing by ridding the M50 of them. Motorists particularly on a motorway should consentrate on road ahead of them rather than looking trees and shrubs.

Amtmann

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

There is a lot more the NRA can do besides planting trees and shrubs. IE they can concentrate on removing the evil cable barriers throughout the country that are known to decapitate motorcyclists and replace them with more suitable concrete medians. I appreciate the good job they are doing by ridding the M50 of them. Motorists particularly on a motorway should consentrate on road ahead of them rather than looking trees and shrubs.

You're missing the point.

Run_to_da_hills

Furet wrote: »

You're missing the point.

No im not missing the point, Traffic safety should have a priority over motorway aestetics. Ie NRA should consentrate on more important things than planting trees and shrubs. I would prefere to see solid concrete medians and edges rather than hedges and bushes knitted together with deadly cable barriers. Trees can also be a hazzard on the verges if a car, truck or motorcycle looses control and ends up on a verge particularly if there is no solid protection barrier which there is not on any of the interurban motorways.

godtabh

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Motorists particularly on a motorway should consentrate on road ahead of them rather than looking trees and shrubs.

There was a study done in the Newcastle about the Angle of the North as people thought that there was an increase in accidents as a result people looking at it.

They looked at accidents for 5 years before and 5 years after construction. There was no evidence to suggest that it had an impact on road safety.

We don’t have massive embankments that would require planting to keep them stable. They money spent on planting (which can get expensive) should be used else where.

Amtmann

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

No im not missing the point, Traffic safety should have a priority over motorway aestetics. Ie NRA should consentrate on more important things than planting trees and shrubs. I would prefere to see solid concrete medians and edges rather than hedges and bushes knitted together with deadly cable barriers. Trees can also be a hazzard on the verges if a car, truck or motorcycle looses control and ends up on a verge particularly if there is no solid protection barrier which there is not on any of the interurban motorways.

With respect, you are missing it. I am not referring to planting on the median. I agree with you that concrete is superior in all respects. I'm talking about the sides of the roads, i.e., the verges, not the median.

How much "concentration" do you think it would take for the NRA to plant the verges? The answer is, not much. And you're forgetting about the road's impact on the houses, people and communities they're built beside and through. My own area, for example, drew tourists anually because of its greenery. Since the M8 opened, the long brown stringy grass together with thistles, burdock and ragwort, which are all weeds -- and illegal weeds at that -- have since colonised the entire length of the M8, making it extremely ugly. It is now an eyesore for everyone in my community, and it's getting worse because now all those weeds are moving from the motorway edge to surrounding areas, particularly close to new overbridges and connecting spurs where those were built.

The roads that are built are already "safe", as far as that goes. What they are not, however, is environmentally friendly. That's important. You might not think so, but it is.

Also, who says anything about planting trees that could fall onto the roadway? No one. Shrubs would do, and would provide plenty of wind cover, noise breaking, weed control, wildlife habitat, and would improve the look of the roads. By all means trees could be planted where suitable. The condition of a road and its banks bespeaks a lot about how a nation cares for its landscape. Roads become a geographic feature of a landscape. You might pass by a 20 meter stretch of thistle-infested embankment in 3 seconds and not even see it. But please, spare a thought for someone like me, who lives beside it and who has to look at it always.

PS -- Hawthorn shrubs, bought en masse, might cost €1 - 1.50 each and are self-propagating.

Amtmann

The picture was taken in June, and has since gotten far worse as the grass is now dying, and weeds have grown up and have gone to seed. Bear in mind too that these have colonised far beyond the road, infesting many adjacent once verdant areas.

Now that sloping embankment is between 30 and 45 feet high on both sides. Where is the danger in planting low-growing hawthorn, for example?

godtabh

Furet wrote: »

and illegal weeds at that

Whats an illegal weed? One thing comes to mind but I doubt its that

Furet wrote: »

What they are not, however, is environmentally friendly. That's important. You might not think so, but it is.

PS -- Hawthorn shrubs, bought en masse, might cost €1 - 1.50 each and are self-propagating.[/QUOTE]

How much would it cost to plant the whole of the M50 upgrade works (and including upkeep and the like?)

Amtmann

Noxious weeds, such as ragwort, hogweed, thistle and burdock, are illegal. This means that as a landowner, you are obliged to eradicate them. Fact. Farmers can be (and have been) fined for allowing those plants to grow unchecked on their lands, and the same applies to NRA lands and council lands.

The M7 is already thickly planted. It was still delivered well within budget. Considering 10,000 euro can be spent on a large sign advertising a scheme which will be taken down after a few years, I think that money would be better spent planting 10,000 self-propagating plants.

darkman2

[/QUOTE]

How much would it cost to plant the whole of the M50 upgrade works (and including upkeep and the like?)[/QUOTE]


Thats the issue I think - not buying the shrubs but maintenance. Furet parts of the N8 are literally out in the middle of nowhere - no country has fully landscaped highways along their entire length because it is not practical and upkeep costs much much more then actually buying the shrubs. They should landscape as much as is practical - near towns and cities. After that I really dont see the point. Tourists want to see ragged Irish countryside after all.

Amtmann

darkman2 wrote: »

Thats the issue I think - not buying the shrubs but maintenance. Furet parts of the N8 are literally out in the middle of nowhere - no country has fully landscaped highways along their entire length because it is not practical and upkeep costs much much more then actually buying the shrubs.

With the variety of plants available, it is possible to select many species that require minimum maintenance. I point to the verges (not the median) of the N8 from Watergrasshill to Dunkettle as a possible example (though clearly such high trees aren't suitable everywhere, I think you get the idea). Hazel, hawthorn, holly and blackthorn -- all native and lowgrowing, requiring little to no maintenance -- would be ideal.

They should landscape as much as is practical - near towns and cities. After that I really dont see the point. Tourists want to see ragged Irish countryside after all.

Except that's not what they'll see. Instead, they'll see savanah-style brown stringy grass infested with thistles and burdock, and hundreds of kilometers of it at that. And it's not just about tourists: a motorway, to the casual user, is something they drive on without thinking very much about it. Fair enough. But what of people and communities along them? It becomes a feature, a landmark, for people living along them. If your neighbours garden was full of nettles and rubbish, you might have a word with him or even complain. Towns don't enter Tidy Towns competitions because they have to. People have an innate desire to want their environs to be attractive. That goes for people living beside motorways too.

Planting along motorways should not be considered some sort of optional extra. A road isn't just a river of tar. Many unseen features, such as drainage filters and cattle underpasses are incorporated without drivers even being aware of them. Planting should be too. The key thing here is sustainability and environmentally friendliness: this should not have to be emphasised in this day and age. Planting should be factored in as an integral part of any road scheme just as cats eyes are. I say all that as an avid road and car enthusiast, not as some anti-road eco nut.

dowlingm

are there any water barrels being used in m-way medians in Ireland? I'm seeing them pop up more and more here as they tend to absorb the force of a vehicle veering off, especially at junctions, but explode to release that force rather than presenting a wall-like obstacle.

Victor

Not to my knowledge, the only similar things that you see are the red and white fake Jersey Barriers at roadworks, which are typically half full.

Capri

Never mind the planting - how about the pruning !!!
If you travel out from Heuston along the N4 Chapelizod By-Pass, the trees are overgrowing into the Bus Lane on both sides. Saw a crashed Maxima in behind the 'overgrowth' one time ( I was driving a truck so I was high up ), you wouldn't have seen it if you were in a car.
And as for road signage, saw a 'Sign Washing ahead' sign the other day - just about copped the chap in the overgrowth - how about a 'Sign washing and uncovering ahead' sign :P

jmkennedyie

Personally, I'm glad to hear that NRA are not landscaping/maintaining recklessly (if I read correctly).

Certainly motorways offer an opportunity to restore / replace some important types of habitat including low-maintenance unimproved grassland and hedgerow, maybe with the odd stand of deciduous trees and wetland.

I think I browsed the NRA guidelines a few years back and it looked wildlife, safety, maintenance friendly. Possibly lack of obvious planting may be due to time of year...might need to wait till winter/spring 09 before planting the recently opened schemes.

Veering a bit off topic, recently I've been convinced that planting should be of native species unless there is a very good reason, and of local stock (i.e. not from nurseries in Eastern Europe, for example, where the plants will not have the genetic optimisations for the local climate and flora/fauna here).

Also, I'd like to put in a good word for thistles, nettles and other 'weeds':). These are valuable native wildflowers that provide shelter and food directly and indirectly for our native insects, birds and mammals. They're not in anyone's way - especially if it is a motorway .

One last thing...Tidy Towns were mentioned...actually they too have been convinced of the importance of biodiversity and now actively give marks for unimproved grasslands, wild meadows, nettle patches, etc. Rather than mow the complete grass strips on the sides of roads they suggest mow the first two or three feet and leave the rest to the native wildlife...mowing once/twice a year depending on type of habitat required.

Chris_533976

I reckon in other countries they'd say all that about wild areas, here it just happens due to 'being lazy'

Amtmann

Ok, I've taken a few pictures. Note that the predominant colour is a sickly brown, not green, which is how Tipperary used to look. Note also that these pictures were all taken along a 5-mile stretch between Cashel and New Inn; but that the problem of unsightliness spans the entire length of the Cashel to Mitchelstown scheme.

Amtmann

Some more...

BluntGuy

I kinda like too when there is nice greenery to look at. The Cashel-Mitchelstown stretch is so... barren.

Amtmann

BluntGuy wrote: »

I kinda like too when there is nice greenery to look at. The Cashel-Mitchelstown stretch is so... barren.

Absolutely. And it needn't be. People forget that a road becomes a fixed, geographic landmark. Prominent interrubans in particular should be treated as such.

mysterious

What I'd like to know why have they stopped planting trees.


Did Nra have a word with George Bush saying trees won't help tackle Global warming.

I'm nearly certain thats whats it's about.......


To be honest a few shrubs and trees makes a boring 120 mile grass verge of lets say the new M7, a little more less boring, me thinks.


NRA get planting. We will be grateful, to see the job well done.

Amtmann

mysterious wrote: »

What I'd like to know why have they stopped planting trees.


Did Nra have a word with George Bush saying trees won't help tackle Global warming.

I'm nearly certain thats whats it's about.......


To be honest a few shrubs and trees makes a boring 120 mile grass verge of lets say the new M7, a little more less boring, me thinks.


NRA get planting. We will be grateful, to see the job well done.

The NRA seems to have embraced a trendy new planting philosophy: that of landscaping to mimic the geographic and floral look of the area upon which new roads get built. Sounds good in theory.

Tipperary is mostly pastoral - green fields, etc. So tree-planting isn't really done, because in theory the embankments ought to look pastoral too. This is unbelievably stupid. Obviously Tipp's fields are green and lovely because they're grazed - by cattle, sheep and rabbits. Embankments, however, are not. So instead of a nice, neat tightly clipped grassy bank, we get scraggly, stringy weeds looking like brown savanah.

I've emailed my pictures to South Tipp County Council. I hope posters here will look at them and see what I mean. It's one thing to whizz by the many acres of waste and weediness in a few minutes, quite another to live beside such abominations.

BluntGuy

With those ugly-as-hell concrete barriers being dominant features on many of our new motorways, our roads need about as much landscaping as they can possibly get.

In the grand scheme of a road project, decent landscaping really isn't that much to ask. I'm not asking for trees on every metre of the road, lush flora forming a perfect decor about the roadside. I'm simply asking for nice, presentable roads that don't make me feel like I'm driving through some sort of barren, sunburnt stretch of the Sahel.

Consider the M8. It should sweep majestically through the wonderful golden vale in Ireland. Indeed there are many beautiful sites to see such as the Galtee mountains, its wonderful coniferous forest and the lush fields that surround the road.

But the immediate roadside is disgusting. Hideous, arid-looking, weed-like plants cover the embankments. This is the flaming golden vale! You're driving through some of the best agricultural land in the country. But the road certainly does not give that impression.

Motorways do not have to look spectacular, but they shouldn't be bland and unpresentable. Look at the M7. Beautiful piece of road. There's nothing exceptional about it. It's just like any other piece of motorway. But look at the lovely landscaping. It makes you feel like you're driving through a lush, rich landscape, rather than an exhausted one.

A few people don't seem to care about the way our roads are presented, and that's a dissappointing attitude to have. We spent the last decade or so largely expanding our network, we may even in a few years time have one of the most impressive motorway networks in Europe. So how about a bit of pride for our roads, rather than the lacklustre "ah sure, they're just bits of tarmac" attitude some of us seem to display.

KevR

When I drove on the M6 in England recently some sections were well kept lanscaping wise, others were very poorly kept.

On the sections which were poorly kept (weeds and ugly **** all over the embankments) it gave the impression that the actual road was poorly kept/maintained/not in the best condition to drive on (even though it was in fine condition to drive on).

In contrast, the sections which had embankments that were very well kept gave the impression of a well maintained motorway and it was generally more pleasurable driving on these sections because of it.

Might not make much sense to some people, but that's just the impressions I personally got from the contrasting sections.

Good landscaping is not 100% essential (in operational terms) but it's definetly worth the effort. And the operators of tolled motorways in this country should definetly put in this extra effort in my opinion.

KevR

KevR wrote: »

When I drove on the M6 in England recently some sections were well kept lanscaping wise, others were very poorly kept.

On the sections which were poorly kept (weeds and ugly **** all over the embankments) it gave the impression that the actual road was poorly kept/maintained/not in the best condition to drive on (even though it was in fine condition to drive on).

In contrast, the sections which had embankments that were very well kept gave the impression of a well maintained motorway and it was generally more pleasurable driving on these sections because of it.

Might not make much sense to some people, but that's just the impressions I personally got from the contrasting sections.

Good landscaping is not 100% essential (in operational terms) but it's definetly worth the effort. And the operators of tolled motorways in this country should definetly put in this extra effort in my opinion.

I think it's more to do with the fact that when motorways were built in the 70s or earlier, there wasn't really anything in the budget for landscaping.

I remember when a bypass was built where I used to live, the old section of road ended up like an "oxbow lake", landscaping consisted in levelling the piles of spoil and dumping a bit of topsoil over it (if there was any around).

BTW, that particular bypass still looks that way even today.

Zoney

Furet wrote: »

The NRA seems to have embraced a trendy new planting philosophy: that of landscaping to mimic the geographic and floral look of the area upon which new roads get built. Sounds good in theory.

No, that's their usual philosophy (and indeed of many others in Ireland, both in public and private sector): Make it up as we go along... Don't bother even a cursory examination as to whether the latest bright idea is remotely sensible.

At least a lack of planting presumably costs less, unlike say, putting up illogical motorway gantry signage that has to be later replaced.

BluntGuy

Zoney wrote: »

At least a lack of planting presumably costs less, unlike say, putting up illogical motorway gantry signage that has to be later replaced.

I'm sorry for bringing this off-topic but just a quick question: has the hideous N7 Naas Bypass one-panel-per-lane gantry signage been replaced? I couldn't believe it when I saw those awful gantries for the first time two years ago. I haven't been up in a while, have they changed it?

Húrin

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

No im not missing the point, Traffic safety should have a priority over motorway aestetics.

Plants on the sides of motorways are not about aesthetics. They are functional.

Stark

BluntGuy wrote: »

I'm sorry for bringing this off-topic but just a quick question: has the hideous N7 Naas Bypass one-panel-per-lane gantry signage been replaced? I couldn't believe it when I saw those awful gantries for the first time two years ago. I haven't been up in a while, have they changed it?

They changed it in most places. Now it's one panel for the turnoff, and a wide green panel with 3 lane arrows for the mainline. I think they still have the old panels for when you approach the M7 though.

darkman2

This thread sums up the level of delusion that still exists in this country for me. The country is undergoing an economic collapse. I think people need to get their priorities in order - fast!

In an ideal world yes we should have nice roads - sadly we are turning into a poor country again that quite literally cannot afford to do anything now. And the worst is yet to come. Think Ireland in the 50's - because that's the pace of progress we will have in the next decade at least. There will be no more roads, no more new railways, hardly any construction whatsoever from 2010 onward. Maybe then reality will hit home. Will the many people, and some of you may well be those people, who lose everything in this catastophe give a damn about verges on motorways?

I know it's a little issue in the grand scheme of things - but you can thank the people that destroyed this country for not having our roads maintained. This country is destroyed. Some people just don't seem to get it yet.

Zoney

darkman: a lot of these roads were planned and/or built during the boom. It's perfectly reasonable to complain about any corners that may have been cut. Maybe it's not a priority but this is a commuting and transport forum and the OP has brought up the subject. What do you want - people to say "ah sure it's grand"?

If people stop complaining about even such small things as untidy finishes to roads - it lets people off the hook. There is too much of people being let off the hook.

Amtmann

darkman2 wrote: »

This thread sums up the level of delusion that still exists in this country for me. The country is undergoing an economic collapse. I think people need to get their priorities in order - fast!

My God, you're right! Let's stop sweeping the streets while we're at it.

Furet

Furet wrote: »

My God, you're right! Let's stop sweeping the streets while we're at it.

If those shrubs growing next to the central concrete barrier on the M6 near Rhode get any bigger, they'll need to close the overtaking lane!

They are allowing debris to accumulate as well.

munchkin_utd

Deleted User wrote: »

If those shrubs growing next to the central concrete barrier on the M6 near Rhode get any bigger, they'll need to close the overtaking lane!

They are allowing debris to accumulate as well.

Indeed.
On the way to and from Cork on the M4 and M7/M8 last week there were a number of shreds of truck tyre in the overtaking lane in various places. Not the safest and especially in the overtaking lane.

In germany a radio announcement is made for people to avoid the objects when this happens, and then they are cleared ASAP.
In Ireland they are just left there for 1000 years till they bio-degrade. (although the steel might take longer!)

Ireland will never be as efficient as germany. But its no excuse for having dangerous roads.

sheelbee

Amtmann wrote: »

The picture was taken in June, and has since gotten far worse as the grass is now dying, and weeds have grown up and have gone to seed. Bear in mind too that these have colonised far beyond the road, infesting many adjacent once verdant areas.

Now that sloping embankment is between 30 and 45 feet high on both sides. Where is the danger in planting low-growing hawthorn, for example?

Anyone see the circus !! ? I was on the M50/ M4 Roundabout an saw at least 4 people on stand on mowers cutting the steep banks, believe me it was a scary sight, men and machines whizzing up and down the slopes (must have been 30/40 degree angle what really worried me was if yhey lost control there was little or no run off area,,,,Surely this will end in a tragic accident.

Trick of the Tail

For the first time, this week, I saw a van with Motorway Maintenance parked up in the verge in the M9 with some blokes cutting the grass, and more unexpectedly, further on - a van with NRA on the side and two geezers picking up litter.

The NRA taking responsibility for motorway maintenance?

Victor

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

For the first time, this week, I saw a van with Motorway Maintenance parked up in the verge in the M9 with some blokes cutting the grass, and more unexpectedly, further on - a van with NRA on the side and two geezers picking up litter.

The NRA taking responsibility for motorway maintenance?

On some of the motorways, the NRA has agreed multi-county contracts for light maintenance.

road_high

I was just commenting on this the other day to a work colleague. There are new dedicated teams cutting the grass and cleaning the motorway. They have NRA own vans and equipment. This was on the M9, I assume the others are the same now. Definitely a noticeable improvement on the patchwork attempts the Councils used make, so far at least.

M4Girl

The MMaRC contracts (A, B and C) have taken over motorway maintenance and renewal outside the PPP areas. Roughly, A is east, B is west and C is south. I can't post links but a map is on the NRA website under Network Management/Our Road Network.