Bulking up & Supplements

billyhead

Hi,

I am trying to bulk up at the moment and would just like your opnions on my diet and weight training plan. I am 6ft and 65kg and hope to put on at least 1 1/2 stone in lean muscle. I also have a very low body fat. The last time I was measured for it in the gym 2 weeks ao the trainer said my bodyfat % was risky, so I do need to increase this.

My diet is

9am-Big bowl of muesli or porridge with 1 scoop of whey protein and full fat milk and a cup of green tea

11am- Apple and a small handful of nuts

1pm-sandwhich consisiting of 2 slices of brown bread, about 100 grams of tuna or salmon froma tin or 150grams of chicken with cheese, tomatoe & lettuce

3pm-Protein bar

5pm -Gym
Post workout shake of 1 scoop of protein and halp a pint of milk

7pm-Dinner usually a stir fry of 150grams of rice or pasta with loads of veg and 200 grams of chckien or fish consisting of tuna and salmon or crab meat and prawns. I pour 2 Tablespoons of Flax oil over the dinner.

9pm-Usually have a big peice of fruitcake with a Danone yougurt poured over it. (I am addicted to fruit cake)

10pm-Protein shake consiting of 2 scoops and half a pint of milk.
I also drink about 3 litres of water per day and 2-3 cups of coffee.

I train with weights (full body: 3 days a week). This is usually made up of CHEST
Dumbbell Chest Press (2x10-12)
Cable Crossovers, Pec Dec or Incline Flys (2x10-12)

BACK
Wide Grip Pulldown (2x12)
Seated Lat Row (2x10-12)

SHOULDERS
Dumbbell Shoulder Press (2x10-12)

BICEPS
Barbell Curls (2x10-12)

TRICEPS
Triceps Press Machine or bench dips (2x10-12)
Pulley Pushdown (2x12)

LEGS
Leg Press or Squats (2x15)
Semi-stiff Legged Deadlifts (2x15)
Leg Curl (2x10-12)
Calf Raises (2x20)

and I do cardio 3 days a week consisting of 40 mins cycle into work and 40 miinutes out. On my one rest day I go for a long walk I have a racer and do push myself relatively hard on the cycle.
Should I take any more supplements apart from whey protein i.e creatine and if so what would you recommend. Also I know I should probaly incorporate eggs into the diet but to be honest I dont really like them. I should probaly drop or reduce the cardio aswell. What do you think

mack1

Seems very little to be eating to me, espeically for somebody doing as much exercise as that. Minus your 9pm and 10pm meals I would eat double what you eat, for bulking you should be eating a lot more.

Your full body workouts are fine, personally I wouldnt bother with the smaller isolation type exercises as all and just concentrate on large compound movements to add size.

dave80

billyhead wrote: »

Hi,

I am trying to bulk up at the moment and would just like your opnions on my diet and weight training plan. I am 6ft and 65kg and hope to put on at least 1 1/2 stone in lean muscle. I also have a very low body fat. The last time I was measured for it in the gym 2 weeks ao the trainer said my bodyfat % was risky, so I do need to increase this.

My diet is

9am-Big bowl of muesli or porridge with 1 scoop of whey protein and full fat milk and a cup of green tea

11am- Apple and a small handful of nuts

1pm-sandwhich consisiting of 2 slices of brown bread, about 100 grams of tuna or salmon froma tin or 150grams of chicken with cheese, tomatoe & lettuce

3pm-Protein bar

5pm -Gym
Post workout shake of 1 scoop of protein and halp a pint of milk

7pm-Dinner usually a stir fry of 150grams of rice or pasta with loads of veg and 200 grams of chckien or fish consisting of tuna and salmon or crab meat and prawns. I pour 2 Tablespoons of Flax oil over the dinner.

9pm-Usually have a big peice of fruitcake with a Danone yougurt poured over it. (I am addicted to fruit cake)

10pm-Protein shake consiting of 2 scoops and half a pint of milk.
I also drink about 3 litres of water per day and 2-3 cups of coffee.

I train with weights (full body: 3 days a week). This is usually made up of CHEST
Dumbbell Chest Press (2x10-12)
Cable Crossovers, Pec Dec or Incline Flys (2x10-12)

BACK
Wide Grip Pulldown (2x12)
Seated Lat Row (2x10-12)

SHOULDERS
Dumbbell Shoulder Press (2x10-12)

BICEPS
Barbell Curls (2x10-12)

TRICEPS
Triceps Press Machine or bench dips (2x10-12)
Pulley Pushdown (2x12)

LEGS
Leg Press or Squats (2x15)
Semi-stiff Legged Deadlifts (2x15)
Leg Curl (2x10-12)
Calf Raises (2x20)

and I do cardio 3 days a week consisting of 40 mins cycle into work and 40 miinutes out. On my one rest day I go for a long walk I have a racer and the push myself relatively hard on the cycle.
Should I take any more supplements apart from whey protein i.e creatine and if so what would you recommend. Also I know I should problay incorporate egss into the diet but to be honest I dont really like them. I should probaly drop or reduce the cardio aswell. What do you think

howe long have you been training like this and have you gained any weight since starting?

Jimmy Bottlehead

Just got the record, I'm not pushed on eggs either, but scramble 2 or 3, and then mix them in with beans, add some (brown) toast and you're sorted for a high calorie meal. Works for me anyways!

billyhead

Dave,

I have only recently started this schedule (within the last 6 weeks), and I have gained one kilo (I know its hardly anything). Prior to this I only ever did cardio training (I took part in road running, Cross country races etc and traithlons/duathlons so the traing was prioritsed towards this i.e lots of running, biking and swimming. But now I really ant to bulk up the frame as I don't think been scrawny or very lean suits my bone structure/build etc.

Degsy

billyhead wrote: »

Hi,

I am trying to bulk up at the moment and would just like your opnions on my diet and weight training plan. I am 6ft and 65kg and hope to put on at least 1 1/2 stone in lean muscle. I also have a very low body fat. The last time I was measured for it in the gym 2 weeks ao the trainer said my bodyfat % was risky, so I do need to increase this.

My diet is

9am-Big bowl of muesli or porridge with 1 scoop of whey protein and full fat milk and a cup of green tea

11am- Apple and a small handful of nuts

1pm-sandwhich consisiting of 2 slices of brown bread, about 100 grams of tuna or salmon froma tin or 150grams of chicken with cheese, tomatoe & lettuce

3pm-Protein bar

5pm -Gym
Post workout shake of 1 scoop of protein and halp a pint of milk

7pm-Dinner usually a stir fry of 150grams of rice or pasta with loads of veg and 200 grams of chckien or fish consisting of tuna and salmon or crab meat and prawns. I pour 2 Tablespoons of Flax oil over the dinner.

9pm-Usually have a big peice of fruitcake with a Danone yougurt poured over it. (I am addicted to fruit cake)

10pm-Protein shake consiting of 2 scoops and half a pint of milk.
I also drink about 3 litres of water per day and 2-3 cups of coffee.

I train with weights (full body: 3 days a week). This is usually made up of CHEST
Dumbbell Chest Press (2x10-12)
Cable Crossovers, Pec Dec or Incline Flys (2x10-12)

BACK
Wide Grip Pulldown (2x12)
Seated Lat Row (2x10-12)

SHOULDERS
Dumbbell Shoulder Press (2x10-12)

BICEPS
Barbell Curls (2x10-12)

TRICEPS
Triceps Press Machine or bench dips (2x10-12)
Pulley Pushdown (2x12)

LEGS
Leg Press or Squats (2x15)
Semi-stiff Legged Deadlifts (2x15)
Leg Curl (2x10-12)
Calf Raises (2x20)

and I do cardio 3 days a week consisting of 40 mins cycle into work and 40 miinutes out. On my one rest day I go for a long walk I have a racer and the push myself relatively hard on the cycle.
Should I take any more supplements apart from whey protein i.e creatine and if so what would you recommend. Also I know I should problay incorporate egss into the diet but to be honest I dont really like them. I should probaly drop or reduce the cardio aswell. What do you think

Eat more meat at 9am,11am,3pm and 9pm.Instead of proetin shakes try to eat a piece of steak,or a tin of tuna or a chicken breast.remeber you need calories as well as a full-range of amino acids to build muscle.And i dont know what you're playing at with the slice of fruitcake with danone youghurt over it,susbtitute it for a home-made burger or something.

Dubdude

Just looking at your training i think you should do more back and shoulder exercises to balance out your full workout cause your doin more chest and legs than you are back and shoulders

kevpants

6ft tall and 65kg? You are at the skinny end of the skinny scale.

The good news is you can save yourself a fortune in protein powders and bars because milk is the answer my friend. Drink 2 -4 litres a day. Seriously. You need calories AND protein. Shakes are great for a shot of pure protein but you need the fat and everything else in milk. Milk is the easist way of getting what you need cos you just knock it back.

You can also forget the bicep curls, triceps etc etc for the moment. You don't have enough muscle mass for them to make a difference.

SQUAT!

And do it alot. Never grace the legpress machine ever again. Squat 3 times a week and TBH you don't need much else until you stack on the muscle. The only other 2 exercises you should even be considering now are the bench and the deadlift.

I'm speaking from the standpoint of somone who wasted years working all my bodyparts for little or no results. Follow the above and feel your jeans / T-shirts get tighter week by week.

As a beginner you'll really enjoy it because the results will come thick and fast.

Al_Fernz

kevpants wrote: »

Never grace the legpress machine ever again.

I have to say that I love the leg press. Started leg pressing on my squat days and I've been very happy with the size and strength results.

Don't get me wrong, if I was given a choice between squats and leg press squats win hands down. However, I wouldn't be so quick to knock them.

kevpants

Al_Fernz wrote: »

I have to say that I love the leg press. Started leg pressing on my squat days and I've been very happy with the size and strength results.

Don't get me wrong, if I was given a choice between squats and leg press squats win hands down. However, I wouldn't be so quick to knock them.

I know what you mean Al but it's supplementary to the squatting and more suited to a good squatter trying to raise their game than a beginner. I was trying to get him focused on squattting stop wreckin me buzzzz!!

Canis Lupus

kevpants wrote: »

6ft tall and 65kg? You are at the skinny end of the skinny scale.

That's what I was thinking. I'm 6ft and hover between 85 and 87kg. I'm not overly muscular or fat at this moment in time. I couldn't even imagine where I could lose 22kgs from to drop to 65kg. Maybe chop off both legs?

billyhead

Thnaks for the advice lads. Keep it coming. The weight is as a result of lots of cardio training over the last 2 years and honestly not enough calories to sustain it. It got to a point that I felling very worn out (possibly overtrained) form being knackered all the time, sore and losing my libido (don't laugh). Thats why I seroiusly know I need to bulk up and up the body fat.

kevpants

billyhead wrote: »

Thnaks for the advice lads. Keep it coming. The weight is as a result of lots of cardio training over the last 2 years and honestly not enough calories to sustain it. It got to a point that I felling very worn out (possibly overtrained) form being knackered all the time, sore and losing my libido (don't laugh). Thats why I seroiusly know I need to bulk up and up the body fat.

Squats will make you a god damn sexual tyranosaurus...just like me.

The Freeman

Canis Lupus wrote: »

That's what I was thinking. I'm 6ft and hover between 85 and 87kg. I'm not overly muscular or fat at this moment in time. I couldn't even imagine where I could lose 22kgs from to drop to 65kg. Maybe chop off both legs?

i'm 76kg coming in at 12 stone and can't imagine being being any lighter(even though i was just over 11 stone 2 months ago)

op. eat 1gram of protein pre lb of weight you are and eat it spread out over 6 meals as your doing and i wouldn't bother with the cake either, eat lots of chicken breasts(i must eat 3 per day every day) and take it easy on the tuna too,keep up on the flax oil also, i use udo's oil and take a tablespoon with 3 meals a day, i suggest you do the same to make sure you get your efa's daily amount, don't take it all together(easier for your body to break down and won't waste it)

Degsy

And dont forget your carbs!!Too many people advocate low carb diets for all sorts of reasons but the fact is that if you're bulking you NEED them and lots of em.
Spuds,pasta,wholegrain bread,oatmeal etc.
Get the carbs down lots!

The Freeman

if i was you i'd ease with the cardio while your bulking man!



very informative for gaining mass

http://www.gain-weight-muscle-fast.com/

and check out the thread i started yesterday here about how important squats are also

Al_Fernz

kevpants wrote: »

Squats will make you a god damn sexual tyranosaurus...just like me.

I thought you were trying to convince they guy to do squats?

OP, having a low libido and being worn down and generally feeling crap is no laughing matter and I don't think anybody would take the pi$$ out of somebody who has the cojhones to admit it. Increasing your calories and testosterone levels will remedy these problems.

1) Eat more, especially fat. Throw in some beef, eggs, cheese, nuts and more milk. You need saturated fat in your diet for test production. Stop using supplements as protein sources where you can. Replace with whole foods like beef etc. That way you are getting a more nutriently diverse diet that will supply your body with all the ammino acids, vitamins, minerals etc. There's a lot more to a muscle building diet than protein. Fat, saturated fat, zinc, iron, vitamins etc etc. are important too.

2) Squat, deadlift and bench. Seriously like. Heavy compound exercises like these promote a hormonal response increasing test levels and muscle growth.

3) Rest and sleep as much as possible.

4) Have some fun and let your hair down. You don't need to overthink this too much.

I hope this helps.

billyhead

Thanks Al for the advice. Yeh the loss of libido and th general feeling of been worn out was worrying me. Its still present so I do know that I need to bulk up to a respectable weight. I can't lift to heavy at the moment so I will need to build this up. Would you suggest a ceratin rep range and number of sets for the Deadlift, Bench and sqaut.

Rgds
Billyhead

Vegeta

Al_Fernz wrote: »

3) Rest and sleep as much as possible.

Was just going to say this too

Yeah fair play dude, I like that you are taking a structured approach to this. I loves the structure me

When i was in college I weighed 63kg at one stage for a kickboxing comp. My friend showed me a pic of myself in first year in college and my god I look like a completely different person now at 85kg. Sure I have about 3-4kg of fat I could do with losing but meh i am bigger stronger and happier.

Again just want to point out that it is a slow process so don't get put off by slow progress. Slow progress is still progress. Take a picture of yourself and put it away for 6-12 months and then have a look at it

eroo

First off,cut out cardio.40 min cycle in,and then 40 min cycle out home?Your burning calories that should be used to gain muscle weight.Also,just eat all around you!And remember;

''Eat BIG,lift BIG and thinkBIG''

Al_Fernz

billyhead wrote: »

Thanks Al for the advice. Yeh the loss of libido and th general feeling of been worn out was worrying me. Its still present so I do know that I need to bulk up to a respectable weight. I can't lift to heavy at the moment so I will need to build this up. Would you suggest a ceratin rep range and number of sets for the Deadlift, Bench and sqaut.

Rgds
Billyhead

Billy,

I think you misunderstood me when I said that you should lift heavy. What I meant is that you should lift as heavy as you can with good form. It doesn't matter what weight is on the bar as long as it challenges you.

I don't think finding the correct rep and set scheme really is the most important issue. Making sure that you learn the correct technique in the lifts is. 5x5, 4x8, 3x12 all have there merits for a beginner. That's the thing - as a beginner you will make progress regardless of the rep and set scheme as long as you are lifting a challenging weight with good form.

My advice for you would be to take a week off from the gym and make sure to eat handsomely. Research squat and deadlift form. There are a ridiculous amount of articles on these exercises online. Make sure that when you do go back to the gym these exercises are imprinted in your brain.

When you go back you should be bursting with energy and enthusiasm. I would do the following routine:

Day 1:
Squat 5x5
Bench 5x5
Chin-up 3 sets to failure - when you can do 8 reps in all three sets add weight

Day 2:
Deadlift 5x5
Military Press 5x5
Dips 3 sets to failure - same deal as the chins

Alternate the routines. Start off all exercises with an empty bar in week 1 and add weight when you are confident with your form and are completing the desired reps and sets. Make sure to leave a day in between workouts for rest and recovery. Try and go at least twice a week, but three times would be better IMO-
i.e Mon - Day1 workout
Wed - Day 2
Fri - Day 1
Mon next week Day 2 etc.

Cycling into work is cool. I'm a socially conscious guy myself and would never disprove of somebody reducing our demand for petrol. Cycling 3 times a week for 40 minutes are so isn't going to adversely effect your gains too much provided you make sure to take it relatively easy (don't try to be Lance Armstrong!) and eat well.

Make sure your rest days are exactly that. Sit at home, hang out with mates , go to the pub, watch old re-runs of Kenan and Kel, whatever you like. Do not do any intense exercise.

Two points that need re-emphasizing:
1) Eat lots.
2) Lift with good form - check this like Santa with a naughty or nice list. Ask for experienced people's opinions, video yourself and never ever round your back.

I really hope this helps man. Best of luck with it!

Rocket!

Hey Billy, Ive been trying to bulk up as of late as well and theres a few things that are really working for me.
1). Keep eating! I know everyone has already said it but im going to reiterate it again, its that important! Milk and peanut butter. They're the****. Im drinking 2 litres of milk and what must be 200g of peanut butter a day and thats majorly upped my calorie intake.

2). Squats, Deads, Bench! Im not long doing them so im no expert but I can already honestly say they are the holy trinity of weightlifting. Get your form right and you'll see lightning fast gains. Within a week I started to feel immensly stronger. Theyre savage.

3). Sleepy time! I dont know if its the extra work im puttin into my workouts or because of that sleepy feeling you get after you eat loads, but Im forever taking naps these days. I cant sit in front of the tele without falling asleep. Its a bit pathetic.:o Whatever the case, the extra rest is doing me the world of good.

Lastly, keep listening to Al and Kev. Those guys really sorted my routine out and got me on the right track! They really know their stuff. Take a look at my thread (it should be a few pages back), it might have some bits of info that might be of use to you.

Best of luck.

billyhead

Thanks Al and Rocket for the great advice. I will start your routine Al next week.
Rgds
Billy

S320

billyhead wrote: »

Thanks Al and Rocket for the great advice. I will start your routine Al next week.
Rgds
Billy

I wouldn't fully agree with the reps being so low for a beginner. To do 5 reps properly means you would have to be doing some serious weight for it to be a challenge. I would recommend sets of 3 with 8 reps. There should be enough weight on the machine/bar that you are starting to struggle by rep 6. If it is no effort to complete a set, then the weight is too low. Rest between sets can also have an input on your results. Too quick and you'll struggle with the remaining sets, too long and the muslce has time to recuperate.

The squats, dead lift and bench are definitely recommended because they are using all the large muscle groups. If you like the leg press use it as well, there is no reason not to, just mix it up.

You are definitely doing a lot of cardio for someone who wants to bulk up. If you are going to continue the cycle to work you will definitely have to up your calorie intake. That cycle probably burns everything your eating at the moment leaving nothing over for your workouts. (and why you're feeling tired).
Keep an eye on your calories so you know whats goin in and out. I cycle 6 miles to work, it takes about 30 mins and I burn about 450 calories. I know everyone's different but as a rough guide you are probably burning over a 1000 calories on your cycle alone, never mind the rest of your workouts.

What you're eating is good and its obvious you have gotten some advice on what to eat, you just need to eat more of it. I would most definitely NOT recommend 2-4 litres of milk everyday as someone suggested, thats just ridiculous. Thats too much calcium, too much lactose and you wouldn't be able to breathe on your bicycle with the state your mucous membrane would be in!

For your height you are definitely underweight and it will not be a quick process, but stick with it. When you start getting the right calories in combined with the tough workouts, I guarantee you the Libido will go in the complete opposite direction.

kevpants

S320 wrote: »

I would most definitely NOT recommend 2-4 litres of milk everyday as someone suggested, thats just ridiculous. Thats too much calcium, too much lactose and you wouldn't be able to breathe on your bicycle with the state your mucous membrane would be in!

Source on how that much milk would give you too much of everything? Proof of effect on cardio performance?

Mark Rippetoe wrote:

Milk is quite literally better than steroids for a novice lifter to grow on, and no supplement produces the same effect.

It is because over thirty years of direct observation has demonstrated to me that when trainees drink one gallon of milk added to their regular diet and train in a progressive linear fashion, they gain significant muscular bodyweight, and those that do not drink their milk, even in the presence of progressive linear training, fail to do this. They also fail to continue progressive linear training for the same length of time, because this is facilitated by the steady weight gain. I understand that you're asking me if I have controlled for other factors such as failure to do the program correctly, and the answer is yes, of course I have, because I am not a complete idiot. Those that will not do the program are not being considered when I make these remarks, because that would be too fukcing obvious a hole in my analysis. The difference in the milk drinkers is that THEY GET BIGGER THAN THE ONES WHO WON'T DRINK THE FUKCING MILK. Please tell me that you understand this now.

I'm not making this up I'm only passing on what a guy, who has more success in getting skinny guys bigger than anyone else, says.

S320

kevpants wrote: »

Source on how that much milk would give you too much of everything? Proof of effect on cardio performance?



I'm not making this up I'm only passing on what a guy, who has more success in getting skinny guys bigger than anyone else, says.

Of course the guys on the milk got bigger than the guys not on the milk. That's pretty obvious because one group are getting a blast of protein everyday when the other group are getting none. But you only need to look at the side of the milk carton to see what else you're putting in your body. The suggestion was 2-4 litres a day. Lets go on the middle ground with 3 litres:

"Source on how that much milk would give you too much of everything?"

Consuming 3 litres of LOW FAT milk every day will get you the following nutrients:

Calcium: 3,720 mg - 480 % of RDA (Recommended Daily Allowance) Actual RDA is 800 - 1,000 mg
Fat: 156 grams
Protein: 102 grams
Carbs: 156 grams (of which are sugars - 156 grams)
Vit B12: 1200 % RDA

All of that, every day? Are ya mad?! I won't deny that drinking that everyday will help you put on weight and build muscle if your working out.. but it doesn't mean it's a good or safe way to do it.

Excess calcium long term can cause Arteriosclerosis, cardiovascular disease, heart disease and stroke, high blood pressure, low stomach acid, muscle / joint pains, depression, fatigue, glaucoma, higher risk for several cancers.

Getting that much fat from all your food intake never mind one source is not recommended.

All the carbs in the milk are sugars so they wont even be any good for his daily cycle.

There are much better ways of getting the required nutrients into the body, and easier ways considering you still need 3 litres of water on top of that!!

"Proof of effect on cardio performance?"
You ask anyone who has been running or cycling for a long time and they will tell you what dairy does to you. If you have a race coming up, you cut all dairy out for at least a week so you can clear your lungs and mucous membrane out. Believe me, when you are running or cycling at race pace struggling for oxygen it is not pretty when everything is lined with Dairy! I'm sure Billyhead knows this quite well as a triathlete.

"It is because over thirty years of direct observation has demonstrated to me..."
Time to move on from the old studies and realise that you will not read a fitness book or up-to-date web site that will tell you to drink 4 litres of milk.

"Milk is quite literally better than steroids for a novice lifter to grow on, and no supplement produces the same effect."
Again, move with the times and realise that there are most certainly steroids (which I dont agree with) and supplements that will do a much better job than milk.

Al_Fernz

S320 wrote: »

I wouldn't fully agree with the reps being so low for a beginner. To do 5 reps properly means you would have to be doing some serious weight for it to be a challenge. I would recommend sets of 3 with 8 reps. There should be enough weight on the machine/bar that you are starting to struggle by rep 6. If it is no effort to complete a set, then the weight is too low. Rest between sets can also have an input on your results. Too quick and you'll struggle with the remaining sets, too long and the muslce has time to recuperate.

5x5 routines have delivered and will continue to deliver results for many, many trainees.

You mightn't like it but you can't deny that it works.

S320

Al_Fernz wrote: »

5x5 routines have delivered and will continue to deliver results for many, many trainees.

You mightn't like it but you can't deny that it works.

I dont deny it works but 5x5's are better suited for someone who has already been lifting and is used to it. If ur only doin 5 reps on a large muscle group the weight would have to be very high. 5 sets of such a high weight is gonna leave a beginner pretty torn. It could take at least 3 days for the fibres to repair themselves.
To go from being a cardio focused triathlete to high weight low reps is not the way to go. There were already comments on getting his form right first. He won't do that with high weights.
Get used to the exercises, the form, let the muscles get used to a bit of weight, do that for a couple of weeks, then pile the weights on. To put on the weight that he wants/needs is gonna take months. This won't happen in a month so don't risk bad form and injury.

Al_Fernz

S320 wrote: »

I dont deny it works but 5x5's are better suited for someone who has already been lifting and is used to it. If ur only doin 5 reps on a large muscle group the weight would have to be very high. 5 sets of such a high weight is gonna leave a beginner pretty torn. It could take at least 3 days for the fibres to repair themselves.
To go from being a cardio focused triathlete to high weight low reps is not the way to go. There were already comments on getting his form right first. He won't do that with high weights.
Get used to the exercises, the form, let the muscles get used to a bit of weight, do that for a couple of weeks, then pile the weights on. To put on the weight that he wants/needs is gonna take months. This won't happen in a month so don't risk bad form and injury.

If you actually read any of the thread properly you will see that the OP was advised to use a weight that they can complete all the sets and all the reps with good form. I clearly emphasized that form was more important than the weight lifted.

Al_Fenz wrote: »

you should lift as heavy as you can with good form. It doesn't matter what weight is on the bar as long as it challenges you.

kevpants

S320 wrote: »

Consuming 3 litres of LOW FAT milk every day will get you the following nutrients:

Calcium: 3,720 mg - 480 % of RDA (Recommended Daily Allowance) Actual RDA is 800 - 1,000 mg
Fat: 156 grams
Protein: 102 grams
Carbs: 156 grams (of which are sugars - 156 grams)
Vit B12: 1200 % RDA

All of that, every day? Are ya mad?! I won't deny that drinking that everyday will help you put on weight and build muscle if your working out.. but it doesn't mean it's a good or safe way to do it.

Sorry I don't know what's bad about that. It's a short term solution to stack on some mass. How is it unsafe? He's a skinny guy who'll be pushing himself harder than he ever has and trying to get bigger. What's gonna happen ,B12 overdose? You just piss that out. Calcium overdose? What are the consequences in the short term?

S320 wrote: »

Excess calcium long term can cause Arteriosclerosis, cardiovascular disease, heart disease and stroke, high blood pressure, low stomach acid, muscle / joint pains, depression, fatigue, glaucoma, higher risk for several cancers.

He's only going to be doing it short term. If you read the little stories in the Metro in the morning theres a new one every day telling me too much of something I'm ingesting will kill me. I really call into question these lists of ailments caused by everyday food.

S320 wrote: »

Getting that much fat from all your food intake never mind one source is not recommended.

By who?

S320 wrote: »

There are much better ways of getting the required nutrients into the body, and easier ways considering you still need 3 litres of water on top of that!!

What better ways of getting it as easy as knocking back a pint of liquid that can fit inbetween meals and snacks therefore increasing his daily intake?

Why does he need 3 more litres of water. Who the hell needs to drink that much water? He's not a plant.

S320 wrote: »

"Proof of effect on cardio performance?"
You ask anyone who has been running or cycling for a long time and they will tell you what dairy does to you. If you have a race coming up, you cut all dairy out for at least a week so you can clear your lungs and mucous membrane out. Believe me, when you are running or cycling at race pace struggling for oxygen it is not pretty when everything is lined with Dairy! I'm sure Billyhead knows this quite well as a triathlete.

I have asked, just this weekend actually. Ex triathlete, mountainbiker and now a road cyclist. Says in his experience milk has a brigade against it. No evidence it negatively affects cardio in his opinion. Sure some people it just doesn't agree with but the amount of people claiming to be"lactose intollerant" versus those that are are fairly lobsided I'd imagine.

S320 wrote: »

Time to move on from the old studies and realise that you will not read a fitness book or up-to-date web site that will tell you to drink 4 litres of milk.

Ummmmm it's called Starting Strength...

S320 wrote: »

Again, move with the times and realise that there are most certainly steroids (which I dont agree with) and supplements that will do a much better job than milk.

Really, evidence? For an absolute beginner Rippetoe claims to have seen both scenarios and milk comes out on top. Probably alot to do with the fact a beginner wouldn't be using anabolics correctly but however, it shows the milk does a job.

S320

Al_Fernz wrote: »

If you actually read any of the thread properly you will see that the OP was advised to use a weight that they can complete all the sets and all the reps with good form. I clearly emphasized that form was more important than the weight lifted.

I read the thread fine. You're missing my point.
Lets use an example. Someone starting out on weights, for lets say a bicep curl, would be advised to do 10-12 reps of 10-15 kgs dumbells (depending on the person but it would be a good start). It will allow good form and it would put the muscle under some pressure to complete the 12 reps.
If you were to use the same weight for only 5 reps you would get good form but the muscle would not be put under any pressure. (The idea of doing a set would be to bring the muscle close to or to fatigue. If the muscle is not brought close to fatigue it is pretty much a waste of time.)
To do five reps of a bicep curl and reach near fatigue would require the weight to be put up to at least 22 if not 25 kg's. It's a pain in the arse holding a dumbell that heavy never mind trying to get someone new to weights to lift that with good form.

So if you keep the weight low to keep good form, 5 reps is not enough to fatigue the muscle. If you put the weight high enough to fatigue the muscle in 5 reps, the form will not be good. Thats why the reps should be higher (8-10)
I'm just stating in my opinion that high weight and low reps are not suitable for a BEGINNER. I've no problem with someone doing that when they have been doing weights for a reasonable amount of time.

You "clearly emphasized that form was more important than the weight lifted." I completely agree with you. My argument is that you cannot do that with such low reps and high weights for a beginner.

If you were learning how to swim you would'nt be asked to do 800 metres butterfly. I think this is the same situation.

S320

Sorry I don't know what's bad about that. It's a short term solution to stack on some mass. How is it unsafe? He's a skinny guy who'll be pushing himself harder than he ever has and trying to get bigger. What's gonna happen ,B12 overdose? You just piss that out. Calcium overdose? What are the consequences in the short term?

Calcium: If you don't have a problem with taking 480 % of the recommended calcium dose EVERY day for several weeks, than that's your own perogative. Sure what do the doctors know?

Protein: 102g. No problem with that until you add it to the rest of your diet and add it up. 2g per KG weight = 130g of protein/day. Excess protein is stored as fat. If you want to simply gain weight any way possible, job done.

Carbs: 156 grams (of which are sugars - 156 grams) I'm not even going to warrant an answer as to why thats bad for you.

Getting that much fat from all your food intake never mind one source is not recommended.
By who?

Fat: The recommended daily fat intake is 10-20 grams. If you dont have a problem with taking 8 times your fat allowance EVERY day for several weeks, than that's your own perogative. Sure what do the doctors know?

Why does he need 3 more litres of water. Who the hell needs to drink that much water? He's not a plant.

Drinking 3 litres of milk does not make up your water allowance just because there's water in it. A minimum of 2 litres of water a day is recommended. Haven't you heard this before? And if you are excercising regulary then it ups to at least 3 litres.

I have asked, just this weekend actually. Ex triathlete, mountainbiker and now a road cyclist. Says in his experience milk has a brigade against it. No evidence it negatively affects cardio in his opinion. Sure some people it just doesn't agree with but the amount of people claiming to be"lactose intollerant" versus those that are are fairly lobsided I'd imagine.

Was the question you asked based on drinking 4 litres of it everyday or just milk in general? I have no problem with milk, I drink 2-3 pints a week. I have a problem with 4 litres a day.

Ummmmm it's called Starting Strength...

Fair enough. It's just one book of many out there and the first I have heard of that tells you to drink that much milk.

LightningBolt

S320 wrote: »

Fat: The recommended daily fat intake is 10-20 grams. If you dont have a problem with taking 8 times your fat allowance EVERY day for several weeks, than that's your own perogative. Sure what do the doctors know?

You're completely wrong on that one there. Guidelines usually place it in the 70-90gm range depending on the size/sex.

g'em

S320 wrote:

Protein: 102g. No problem with that until you add it to the rest of your diet and add it up. 2g per KG weight = 130g of protein/day. Excess protein is stored as fat. If you want to simply gain weight any way possible, job done.

But the OP is looking to gain weight. In order to do this he needs to eat an excess of calories. If any macro is going to provide a more efficient, cost (metabolically speaking) effective way to do that it's to increase protein consumption. I agree with you that up to 4L of milk a day is excessive, but as 'bulking up' foods go, milk is pretty good fodder.

S320 wrote:

Carbs: 156 grams (of which are sugars - 156 grams) I'm not even going to warrant an answer as to why thats bad for you.

All sugars are not metabolised equally. Lactose, while still a sugar (heck even broccoli once broken down can technically be called a sugar!) it's now thought to be extremely effective for fat metabolism in a high fat diet and can lower triglyceride and non-esterified fatty acid levels. Granted, their rodent studies, but human clinical studies don't seem to have been published yet. It also helps regulate calcium metabolism. Also, lactose ranks around 5 on the Glyciemic Load index - no insulin spikes there, so the proclamation of milk sugars being detrimental to the OP is kind of moot. I'd be a lot more concerned about other possible sugar sources in his diet tbh

S320 wrote: »

Calcium: If you don't have a problem with taking 480 % of the recommended calcium dose EVERY day for several weeks, than that's your own perogative. Sure what do the doctors know?

This would be of concern, but it's not quite that black and white either. The Upper Limit for safe calcium ingestion is 2,500mg per day and most people with a diet reasonably rich in dairy would routinely meet and surpass that limit. You also have to consider the calcium absorption factor involved - that is, just because he's ingesting x amount of Ca per day, it doesn't mean all of it will be accessible to the body. In fact, the high levels of protein in a high dairy diet would most likely increase Ca excretion.

S320 wrote:

Fat: The recommended daily fat intake is 10-20 grams. If you dont have a problem with taking 8 times your fat allowance EVERY day for several weeks, than that's your own perogative. Sure what do the doctors know?

That recommendation is very outdated at this stage. Too much fat will, indeed make you fat purely as a result of increased calorie intake against expenditure, but a recommendation of 10-20g is a throwback from the 70s. Even by conservative estimates the OP could ingest 60 grams of fat a day without worry. Factor in his higher than average exercise levels and the resistance training and his body's fat demands will almost certainly be higher still.

S320 wrote:

Drinking 3 litres of milk does not make up your water allowance just because there's water in it. A minimum of 2 litres of water a day is recommended. Haven't you heard this before? And if you are excercising regulary then it ups to at least 3 litres.

We've all heard it, but it too, is being disproven (incidentally this study was re-visited and reviewed in early 2008). The water requirements for any individual are just that; individual. 3L of milk a day though, would provide plenty of aqua for almost anyone.

S320 wrote:

Was the question you asked based on drinking 4 litres of it everyday or just milk in general? I have no problem with milk, I drink 2-3 pints a week. I have a problem with 4 litres a day.

I think anything in excess can prove problematic, but as always things aren't always simple.

The OP wants to gain weight. To do that they must increase calories. What's the best way to do that? Well we could argue that until the cows come home but imho increasing protein and good fats is the way to do it. Certainly for a lifter the fats will be necessary to meet the increased endochronological stresses produced by regular resistance training. The OP is also human, and as strong as human will may be, it's not many people who can adhere to a regime of cooking 5 or 6 perfect meals per day with perfect macronutrient breakdowns and perfect micronutrient profiles. So instead you have to look at what is healthy, but also convenient and effective and for many people milk provides that niche.

kevpants

LightningBolt wrote: »

You're completely wrong on that one there. Guidelines usually place it in the 70-90gm range depending on the size/sex.

He's wrong on more than just that.

As far as the sugars go, I think the GI number of milk is 30'ish. That aint a big number.

Also all the fat inhibits the insulin spike associated with the sugars thus the OP won't store it all as fat like he would with eating sugary snacks etc.

All the carbs (sugars or not) and fat are needed to stop him catablozing muscle to fuel his new bulking regime.

If you read the OP rather than just trying to prove ME wrong you might be able to give better advice. His BF% is worryingly low as is his overall weight. The diet nazis can recommend a diet of twigs and berries all they want but they pretty much push the same agenda in each case. I wouldn't be recommending this diet if he was a fairly chunky guy to begin with.

Hanley

Al_Fernz wrote: »

I thought you were trying to convince they guy to do squats?

OP, having a low libido and being worn down and generally feeling crap is no laughing matter and I don't think anybody would take the pi$$ out of somebody who has the cojhones to admit it. Increasing your calories and testosterone levels will remedy these problems.

1) Eat more, especially fat. Throw in some beef, eggs, cheese, nuts and more milk. You need saturated fat in your diet for test production. Stop using supplements as protein sources where you can. Replace with whole foods like beef etc. That way you are getting a more nutriently diverse diet that will supply your body with all the ammino acids, vitamins, minerals etc. There's a lot more to a muscle building diet than protein. Fat, saturated fat, zinc, iron, vitamins etc etc. are important too.

2) Squat, deadlift and bench. Seriously like. Heavy compound exercises like these promote a hormonal response increasing test levels and muscle growth.

3) Rest and sleep as much as possible.

4) Have some fun and let your hair down. You don't need to overthink this too much.

I hope this helps.

Rocket! wrote: »

Hey Billy, Ive been trying to bulk up as of late as well and theres a few things that are really working for me.
1). Keep eating! I know everyone has already said it but im going to reiterate it again, its that important! Milk and peanut butter. They're the****. Im drinking 2 litres of milk and what must be 200g of peanut butter a day and thats majorly upped my calorie intake.

2). Squats, Deads, Bench! Im not long doing them so im no expert but I can already honestly say they are the holy trinity of weightlifting. Get your form right and you'll see lightning fast gains. Within a week I started to feel immensly stronger. Theyre savage.

3). Sleepy time! I dont know if its the extra work im puttin into my workouts or because of that sleepy feeling you get after you eat loads, but Im forever taking naps these days. I cant sit in front of the tele without falling asleep. Its a bit pathetic.:o Whatever the case, the extra rest is doing me the world of good.

Lastly, keep listening to Al and Kev. Those guys really sorted my routine out and got me on the right track! They really know their stuff. Take a look at my thread (it should be a few pages back), it might have some bits of info that might be of use to you.

Best of luck.

They're two really good posts. The rest of the thread certainly went downhill fast after them tho

Hanley

S320 wrote: »

Fat: The recommended daily fat intake is 10-20 grams. If you dont have a problem with taking 8 times your fat allowance EVERY day for several weeks, than that's your own perogative. Sure what do the doctors know?

.

I stopped reading after that, but let me clarify something RE: rep ranges.

For beginners, the most important thing to do is learn the big lifts (squat, bench and dead) correctly. How does one do that? Lots of repetitions while they're fresh. Why does one do that?? Because as you get tired during a set form breaks down and the reps start to look different. Not a great situation to be in if you're trying to learn how to consistently repeat something so each rep looks like the one before and the one that will follow.

The solution? 5x5 or 8x3. Nobody is talking about using near max weights for these. They're talking about using weights that may be slightly challenging and provide enough resistance to have to use good form. Furthermore, using something like Rippetoe's Starting Strength program means that the lifter gets a lot of repitition during the week too (since they're squatting, benching and deadlifting 2-3x a week). Trying to do that with weights that bring you to failure wouldn't work since you probably wouldn't recover.

Which is going to allow someone to learn faster.... doing a movement 2-3x a week and having maybe 90-95% of the reps they do done while they're fresh and foucsed. Or.... doing the movement 1x a week where only about 75% of the reps they do will be while they're "fresh"?

Not a very difficult question in my opinion.

Al_Fernz

S320 wrote: »

My argument is that you cannot do that with such low reps and high weights for a beginner.

Well I know two people personally who have put on some size and increased their strength by adopting a similar 5x5 style routine. Not to mention that there are lots of people who have made great progress by adopting Mark Ripptoe's Starting Strength template. Put it this way - if I was starting to lift weights again I would do the routine that I posted.

Dumbells? Bicep curls? WTF? Did you even read the routine I posted?

Your argument is contradicted by real-life anecdotal evidence.