Who will use the new M3?

chewed

For all those commuters in Meath/Cavan, who will be using the new M3 and paying the tolls?

Is it still the plan to have 2 tolls on the road? The original plan was to have a toll at Pace near Clonee, and another south of Navan. I would assume that the prices would be around €2 for each toll. So, for instance, if someone had to commute from Kells to Tallaght (using the M3 and M50), they would be paying €12 per day or over €3,000 per year!

Victor

Alternatively they could do a more sensible commute.

Seth Brundle

How? Bus?
Realistically the bus will not suit someone working in say Ballymount or Stillorgan unless they want to spend half of their day commuting

Victor

I'm suggesting that Kells to Tallaght is a silly commute and they should move or change jobs.

_Kaiser_

kbannon wrote: »

How? Bus?
Realistically the bus will not suit someone working in say Ballymount or Stillorgan unless they want to spend half of their day commuting

+1 I know the Greens and a lot of people on this forum seem determined to force us all onto overcrowded, unreliable public transport, but the reality is that it's not an option for most people - especially if you live in the country.

Most people who are stuck on the N3 in their cars every day aren't there because they want to be, but because the alternatives are even worse.
Until the powers that be wake up to this, people will continue to drive everywhere.

Anyway, back to the original question...
What'll happen is most people who would be affected by both tolls will use the current N3 as they do now, just as the M4 is largely deserted anytime I'm down that way.

Seth Brundle

I travel to Leitrim a bit and I will continue to use the M4/N4 - I refuse to use the new M3

_Kaiser_

Victor wrote: »

I'm suggesting that Kells to Tallaght is a silly commute and they should move or change jobs.

Not everyone can just "change jobs" Victor. Most jobs - for example in IT - are in the Dublin area, ironically because, as bad as our infrastructure is, Dublin is probably the best.

As for moving.. Move where? The closer to Dublin you are the more expensive the rent/mortgage. Most people - especially in the current economic climate - can't just afford to have to pay out several hundred extra every month (not to mention uprooting any kids, partner etc) so they make the best of the situation which in this example involves a lengthy commute every day.

Gurgle

Victor wrote: »

I'm suggesting that Kells to Tallaght is a silly commute and they should move or change jobs.

Yeah, they should sell their house in Kells and buy one in Tallaght....
Its hard to understand how they survive out there without the smell of burning cars in the first place.

Of course, since its only 70km from Kells to Tallaght, there may be some people there who thought a 70km commute with motorways all the way wouldn't be too bad.

In a modern first world country, that commute would take ~45 minutes each way, and cost maybe €4 a day on tolls.

What pessimist could possibly have thought they would be paying €12 per day to sit on the M50 for 2 hours each way?

amacachi

Or they could stop behaving like snobs and/or spoilt brats. Oooh, I want a country house but I want a high-paying job in the city. If you can manage it then great, if not then it's not up to the government, well it shouldn't be, to cater to your idea of a perfect little world.

Yes, a 70km commute could take 45 minutes, in an ideal world of travelling at the speed limit the eintire time, assuming that the place of employment is right on the main road.

steyr fan

Read in the Indo today that planning permission has been granted for a train station at Hansfield, Clonee, and another at Dunboyne. Interesting to see M3 v's Navan Train competition.

ardmacha

Most people - especially in the current economic climate - can't just afford to have to pay out several hundred extra every month

With petrol, tolls, and wear and tear on a car anyone commuting a longish distance is already spending several hundred a month.

_Kaiser_

It's not just purely financial (and public transport outside Dublin isn't cheap btw! - see my post in the other recent thread on how you commute to work).

But as a rough example. Renting a 4 bed, 3 storey house in the Virginia area of Cavan is about €750 per month at the moment per daft.ie. Renting a similarly sized house in Dublin would cost AT LEAST double this. You'd want to be spending an awful lot on your car before you could justify this.

Public transport in this country is slow, unreliable, overcrowded, dirty, staffed by too many ignorant jobsworths who clearly aren't made familiar with the term "Customer Service", often filled with scumbags, and it generally goes places that suits the operator (for example, CIE's obsession with "An Lar") rather than the customer. Then there's the convenience, flexibility and comfort of driving your own car - something which Public Transport in this county can never hope to match.

As a result of all this, Public Transport is seen (including by those who have the power to change it) as the option for those who have no other alternative, and it's treated and funded as such.

Even if there was a bus stop right outside my door and another at the entrance to my office, I'd still drive every time.

Riamfada

It is not just for the convienience of commuters but also opens the North West to commercial trucks via the M50 and port tunnel lessing the importance on degrading secondary roads.

amacachi

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Even if there was a bus stop right outside my door and another at the entrance to my office, I'd still drive every time.

Wow, you're open to debate.

Looking at it subjectively, if it was 750 a month extra to rent in Dublin, working on the basis of 12 euro a day for tolls, theres 240 euro of that saving gone. Along with whatever you're going to be spending on petrol. Then there's a little thing called spare time which plenty of people seem to put 0 value on.

_Kaiser_

amacachi wrote: »

Wow, you're open to debate

I used Dublin Buses/DART/rail for the best part of 25 years and would never go back to it again.

A journey from Blanchardstown to Coolock that would take me between 20 and 45 mins (depending on the time of day) by car, would take at least 90 mins and involve transferring buses at least once (depending on which route I used).

Getting from Blanchardstown to Shankhill at 7.30am took just under an hour via the City Centre by car. By public transport, it involved the dangerously overcrowded Maynooth line train, then a (frequently delayed/missing) DART and a shuttle bus - again another 80 mins+

Getting a 39 to town from Blanch took anywhere from 45-90 mins - that's AFTER the 30 mins you'd often have to wait (for a bus that according to the timetable ran every 7 mins) in the first place! Then you have to stand for most of the journey pressed against other commuters in the again overcrowded lower saloon.

Now why would I choose a bus/train over my warm/cool, dry, comfortable (guaranteed a seat), flexible (can leave when I want/need to and change my route as I need to on the way) efficent (2.0 TDI Passat) car again??

amacachi

Don't think those transfers would apply if the bus went straight from your doorstep to work

Don't get me wrong, public transport is very hit and miss, but I do like how you ignored the other part of my post.

Stark

ardmacha wrote: »

With petrol, tolls, and wear and tear on a car anyone commuting a longish distance is already spending several hundred a month.

That's what I was thinking as well. I often wonder how many of these people buying cheaper houses in the middle of nowhere actually factor in the costs of their commute. I remember hearing people in work (Blanchardstown) before discussing houses in Portlaoise and how "there's a motorway all the way"! :eek:

Then driving home to visit the parents in Cork, I passed a sign just outside Portarlington with a message along the lines of "If you bought with us, you'd be home by now". Looked at my watch, which said 8pm and thought "well thank Christ I didn't"

Kaiser2000 wrote:

But as a rough example. Renting a 4 bed, 3 storey house in the Virginia area of Cavan is about €750 per month at the moment per daft.ie. Renting a similarly sized house in Dublin would cost AT LEAST double this. You'd want to be spending an awful lot on your car before you could justify this.

You could easily spend €20 worth of petrol on a round trip between Virginia and Dublin I reckon, especially if the traffic is heavy as it would be on a morning commute. That's about €400 worth of petrol a month and petrol isn't getting much cheaper. Then you add on the cost of wear and tear on your car and you've already eaten a good deal into the chunk of those savings. And of course then there's the fact that commuting that distance each day doesn't amount to anything of a life.

_Kaiser_

amacachi wrote: »

Don't think those transfers would apply if the bus went straight from your doorstep to work

Touche! but unfortunately I'd wager there's very few people who get door-to-door service from public transport.

Don't get me wrong, public transport is very hit and miss, but I do like how you ignored the other part of my post.

My bad...

amacachi wrote: »

Looking at it subjectively, if it was 750 a month extra to rent in Dublin, working on the basis of 12 euro a day for tolls, theres 240 euro of that saving gone. Along with whatever you're going to be spending on petrol. Then there's a little thing called spare time which plenty of people seem to put 0 value on.

Spare time? Using public transport is - in my experience - MORE time consuming than driving.

As for the savings.. a quick search on daft.ie for a similar house in Swords (which isn't exactly close to D1 either!) shows rental prices ranging from €1700-2200 per month. That's over €1000 extra PER MONTH than my example in Virginia. There's no way running my car costs me that and I have all of the aforementioned benefits over the bus/train as I listed earlier.

_Kaiser_

Stark wrote: »

You could easily spend €20 worth of petrol on a round trip between Virginia and Dublin I reckon, especially if the traffic is heavy as it would be on a morning commute. That's about €400 worth of petrol a month and petrol isn't getting much cheaper. Then you add on the cost of wear and tear on your car and you've already eaten a good deal into the chunk of those savings. And of course then there's the fact that commuting that distance each day doesn't amount to anything of a life.

It depends where you're commuting to/from. I was living/working in Blanchardstown for years so even coming from as far as Virginia, you're going to avoid most of the worst of the traffic along the way

As for fuel costs - admittedly it's been a while since I filled her to the brim - but my 2.0L TDI diesel Passat does about 1100km to a full tank, or in real terms about 10-12 days of driving. A full tank (last time I did fill it) was about €95 so that is still a good bit less than €400.

amacachi

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Touche! but unfortunately I'd wager there's very few people who get door-to-door service from public transport.


My bad...

Spare time? Using public transport is - in my experience - MORE time consuming than driving.

As for the savings.. a quick search on daft.ie for a similar house in Swords (which isn't exactly close to D1 either!) shows rental prices ranging from €1700-2200 per month. That's over €1000 extra PER MONTH than my example in Virginia. There's no way running my car costs me that and I have all of the aforementioned benefits over the bus/train as I listed earlier.

I wasn't talking about using public transport, but living closer to your work. If the savings aren't there in your case then fair enough. If you're happy enough commuting the distance you are then fair enough, more power to ya, but it's when people get a job many miles from home and then whinge about the infrastructure, they're who I have an issue with.

_Kaiser_

amacachi wrote: »

I wasn't talking about using public transport, but living closer to your work. If the savings aren't there in your case then fair enough. If you're happy enough commuting the distance you are then fair enough, more power to ya, but it's when people get a job many miles from home and then whinge about the infrastructure, they're who I have an issue with.

Well I do agree that people who buy a house in the country before they look into the commute - as often seen in posts on this very forum - can't really complain.

I'm actually luckily enough myself though that I don't have to do the Dublin commute anymore as I work in Meath, so either way (from Blanch or Virginia) it's no more than 35 minutes for me.

My point is though that it's a bit disingenious for some posters to come on here and declare "change jobs/move closer/get the bus" as a one-size-fits-all solution to people who are doing the daily commute.

amacachi

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Well I do agree that people who buy a house in the country before they look into the commute - as often seen in posts on this very forum - can't really complain.

I'm actually luckily enough myself though that I don't have to do the Dublin commute anymore as I work in Meath, so either way (from Blanch or Virginia) it's no more than 35 minutes for me.

My point is though that it's a bit disingenious for some posters to come on here and declare "change jobs/move closer/get the bus" as a one-size-fits-all solution to people who are doing the daily commute.

Again though I think the main issue is that they've made the choice and now have to live with it or do something about it. Glad we agree for the most part anyway.

watty

There is effectively a €10,000+ tax on moving house.
Houses in Dublin can cost x2 to x3 more than elsewhere
High Tech jobs are migrating to Dublin.

If you have kids at school/college that also can mitigate against moving.


Tolls and "taxs" on house moving should be unconstitutional and there should be a serious effort for infrastructure and support to have companies setup outside Dublin.

I have to commute Limerick to Dublin. I can see no alternative. I get no tax rebate on the rent I have to pay on weekday apartment accommodation. I'm not surprised that people will get trapped into commuting past 3 trolls. It would cost me over €200,000 to move.

Tolls are inefficent too. VAT & duty on Petrol/Diesel is efficient and penalises by efficency and distance (usage). Car Tax Disc is efficient and penalises by vchle type. A 3rd tax is iniquitous as mostly there is no alternate and the other taxes pay far more than the roads costs. Stick a few more cents on Fuel Duty and Tax Disk if you must, but tolls is wasting our money to fat cats producing nothing.

ardmacha

Tolls and "taxs" on house moving should be unconstitutional

the alternative to once off taxes on houses is some type of "rates" on houses payable every year. If we had such taxes rather than relying on stamp duty then the public finances wouldn't be in such a mess. House sales volume has halved, reducing stamp duty revenue greatly.

But every effort should be made to get business to set up in Meath Kildare etc where there are increased populations.

amacachi

Yeah, everything should be the same price everywhere and enforced by the government. Wait, didn't somewhere try that before?

Seth Brundle

steyr fan wrote: »

Read in the Indo today that planning permission has been granted for a train station at Hansfield, Clonee, and another at Dunboyne. Interesting to see M3 v's Navan Train competition.

Having PP is different from having finance to build it!

testicle

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Not everyone can just "change jobs" Victor. Most jobs - for example in IT - are in the Dublin area, ironically because, as bad as our infrastructure is, Dublin is probably the best.

As for moving.. Move where? The closer to Dublin you are the more expensive the rent/mortgage. Most people - especially in the current economic climate - can't just afford to have to pay out several hundred extra every month (not to mention uprooting any kids, partner etc) so they make the best of the situation which in this example involves a lengthy commute every day.

No one suggested they move closer to Dublin. Move somewhere out the N7 or N11, no tools out those roads, and closer to Tallaght.

_Kaiser_

testicle wrote: »

No one suggested they move closer to Dublin.

Actually they did:

Victor wrote: »

I'm suggesting that Kells to Tallaght is a silly commute and they should move or change jobs.

testicle wrote:

Move somewhere out the N7 or N11, no tools out those roads, and closer to Tallaght.

I think the whole problems with just moving house have already been covered by myself and particularly Watty above.

L1011

Stark wrote: »

I remember hearing people in work (Blanchardstown) before discussing houses in Portlaoise and how "there's a motorway all the way"! :eek:

I'm waiting for people to start using that logic for commuting to Dublin from Galway in a few years time - already work with someone who does Portumna -> Tallaght!

BrianD

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

+1 I know the Greens and a lot of people on this forum seem determined to force us all onto overcrowded, unreliable public transport, but the reality is that it's not an option for most people - especially if you live in the country.

Most people who are stuck on the N3 in their cars every day aren't there because they want to be, but because the alternatives are even worse.
Until the powers that be wake up to this, people will continue to drive everywhere.

Anyway, back to the original question...
What'll happen is most people who would be affected by both tolls will use the current N3 as they do now, just as the M4 is largely deserted anytime I'm down that way.

Bus Eireann operate a very good service on the N3. The route 109 has high frequency of service with moderb buses (some of them the hew high capacity type). It is subject to being stuck in traffic like everybody else but least you have the advantage of the bus lanes. So it would be unreasonable of you to state that there is no alternative.

Leaving aside the proposed rail link to Navan, I suggest that you check out the bus service as that is the only efficient form of public transport that will ever be availble to service the sprawl that exists north of Dublin.

Bottom line is that some people think in this country that there should be a bus that departs from outside their front door at a time of their choosing to the destination they choose. A private car offers the convenience of personal point to point transport but the trade off is that there will be a cost.

While it might be a bit flippant for somebody to suggest you move house and avail of a more efficient work-home commute, the remark does underline that many of these suburban type developments in rural areas are unsustainable developments in the long run.

IIMII

Also a wee problem of the near impossility of parking anywhere to use the bus..

Fraid I'm in the car brigade even though I hate traffic.

Re using the M3, I'll definitely use it between Navan and Dunshaughlin. I'll have to look at the tolled bit from Dunshaughlin to Dunboyne to see if it's worth avoiding

Cost benefit analyses type of thing.

I'm more worried about how much of an impact the M50 upgrade will have at Blanch to be honest - thats the real killer