[PR] Cyclists Welcome Continuing Ban on Motorbikes Use of Bus Lanes

monument

faceman wrote: »

How did they produce this data? I find it difficult to believe. Does it include suburbs where kids cycle to school

It's from the Dublin City Traffic survey, recording the numbers entering the city between 7am and 10am.

faceman wrote: »

Yes but cycling promotion is Copenhagen is completely different.
There are dedicated cycle lanes which are often separate to the main road.
There are bicycle hire stands all over the city.
The city is relatively flat in terms of terrain.
Traffic rules are strictly enforced for cyclists.
Public transport has facilities for cyclists to bring their bike on.
Scooters are permitted to use cycle lanes

But you were talking about the weather - you said: "Ireland's atrocious weather". Now, you're moving on to another myth about flatness??? Dublin is also relatively flat for the most part. But there are other cities in Denmark which are not. The country's second city, Aarhus, was described to me by a source there as hilly. It also has high level of cycling.

Copenhagen's city bike rental - unlike Paris etc - isn't anything to be writing home about. There may be stands around the city, but the bikes are in very very short supply. Using normal rental is recommended if you go there.

And, yes there are kerb-separated cycling lanes and yes there is integration with their metro, and regional trains. But these aren't things that will happen over night. It's worth noting that Copenhagen hasn't always been a cycling wonderland - most of what is in place today was put in place in the last 20 to 30 years.

faceman wrote: »

What reputation do motorcyclists have?

Motorcyclists have a very bad reputation. One that I'd say they all do not all deserve. But funny enough you lot seam to be ok with tarnishing another group of road users with a thick brush.

faceman wrote: »

If cyclists were charged with breaking traffic laws there would be less cyclists on the road. So do we promote bicycle safety by brushing traffic laws aside for the most vulnerable road user????

Your first sentence there is flawed logic, people are not put off the road for breaking any traffic laws. They normally have to be acting recklessly.

Red Alert wrote: »

Motorcyclists, in my opinion, have more consideration for other motorists than cyclists do. No other road users apart from the cyclists routinely break traffic lights...

30 mins at a Dublin junction... http://www.cianginty.com/2008/02/road-safety-yea.html

The city centre is not much better. Cars are always breaking lights etc - and it's far worse when they do.

Igy wrote: »

I have to agree with some of the other posters here, there are a HUGELY disproportionate number of cyclists that not only run red lights, but completely ignore them, along with other laws.

What exactly is a "HUGELY disproportionate number" - 40%? 50%? More?

More importantly how many are acting recklessly?

faceman wrote: »

cyclopath2001 wrote:

General perception would be : Speeding, weaving through moving traffic at high speed, illegal overtaking, amber light offences, illegal use of bus lanes, parking on footpaths and a high injury and fatality rate.

So bar the speeding and illegal use of bus lanes, bikers are just like cyclists?

No.

Cyclists don't weave thought traffic at high speed, there is not a high injury and fatality rate for cyclists, cyclists are not known for illegal overtaking, and parking a bicycle on a footpath is not illegal.

But, even if it was only speed alone, motorcyclists are far more dangerous to pedestrians, cyclists, and them selves.

Zebra3

monument wrote: »

But you were talking about the weather - you said: "Ireland's atrocious weather". Now, you're moving on to another myth about flatness??? Dublin is also relatively flat for the most part. But there are other cities in Denmark which are not. The country's second city, Aarhus, was described to me by a source there as hilly. It also has high level of cycling.

Myth about flatness? You've obviously never been to Copenhagen.

Hotblack Desiato

monument wrote: »

Cyclists don't weave thought traffic at high speed

This is nonsense although frequently claimed by car drivers.
When they are stuck or moving very slowly, something going past at 10mph faster than them appears a lot quicker than it is. Factor in their usual total lack of rear observation

there is not a high injury and fatality rate for cyclists

The casualty rate per km for cyclists is actually higher than for motorcyclists.

cyclists are not known for illegal overtaking

Are you implying that motorcyclists are? Filtering is not illegal.

and parking a bicycle on a footpath is not illegal.

AFAIK it is illegal to park a bicycle on a footpath except at a designated place.
Whatever about the inadequate provision of facilities for cyclists, they provide almost nowhere in Dublin city centre where a motorcycle can be parked legally.

But, even if it was only speed alone, motorcyclists are far more dangerous to pedestrians, cyclists, and them selves.

So it's ok if cyclists break the law? No. I'm a vulnerable road user (motorcyclist) and cyclists who ride recklessly put me at risk. Motorcyclists have been killed crashing into, or attempting to avoid, cyclists who broke red lights.

monument

Zebra3 wrote: »

Myth about flatness? You've obviously never been to Copenhagen.

I didn't mean a myth about Copenhagen, but when it is used as an example you'll nearly always have another person saying "but it's flat". Anyway, my point is, I'm told Denmark's second city is hilly and still has high numbers of cycling. For the record I have been to Copenhagen.

ninja900 wrote: »

The casualty rate per km for cyclists is actually higher than for motorcyclists.

I can't find casualty rate per km for cyclists and motorcyclists in Ireland, but I found this from the RSA...

Vulnerable Road Users 1
Vulnerable road users are pedestrians, motor cyclists, cyclists, young children and older people.

• 6 out of 10 of those who have died on our roads in the last six years are vulnerable road users
• 2 out of 10 are pedestrians
• 1 out of 10 is a motor cyclist
• 1 out of 30 is a cyclist

Vehicle speed is the primary contributor to these fatalities.

At 60 km/h 9 out of 10 pedestrians will be killed in an impact with a vehicle.

At 50 km/h 5 out of 10 pedestrians will be killed in an impact with a vehicle.

At 30 km/h 1 out of 10 pedestrians will be killed in an impact with a vehicle.

The same document here (PDF), has some interisting reading about cyclists and motorcyclists...

Motorcyclists

Motorcycles represent less than 2% of licensed vehicles but account for 12% of road deaths.

Between 1996 and 2003, almost 2,000 motorcyclists were killed or seriously injured. 19 This equates to a motorcycle fatality rate in Ireland of 1.5 per 1,000 licensed motorcycles, the highest in Europe. According to
OECD figures, a motorcyclist is 2 to 3 times more likely to be killed in Ireland than in other European countries 20.

In addition to the human cost, it is estimated that the economic cost of motorcycle crashes involving fatalities and injuries from 1996 to 2003 was over €1 billion.

Road collision data indicates that males in the 25 to 34 year age bracket are over-represented in motorcycle fatalities (34%) and injuries (27%).

The majority (65%) of motorcyclists are killed in single vehicle crashes outside built-up areas where it is more likely that high-speed and powerful bikes are major contributory factors.

However, the majority (75%) of bikers are injured as a result of collisions within towns and cities.

The majority of these crashes are the result of a collision involving a motorcycle and another vehicle. In the period 1996 to 2004, 81% of casualties were as a result of collisions with a car and 10% involved a collision with a goods vehicle.

Cyclists

Accounting for 3% of all road deaths, an average of 12 cyclists are killed and 29 seriously injured annually on Irish roads.

The groups most at risk are the very young and older cyclists. Almost 20% of cyclist fatalities are under 17 years of age with the 10 to 14 year age group being the most at risk. However, by far the most vulnerable cyclists on Irish roads are those over 55 who account for 36% of fatalities.

Most cyclist fatalities are the result of a collision between the cyclist and another road user, typically a car (47%) or a goods vehicle (36%).

59% of fatalities occur in rural areas while 85% of cyclist injuries happen inside built-up areas.

So, with cyclists those at most risk are comparable to those at most risk with walking. But with motorcyclists it's the fit and able and mostly in single vehicle crashes.

[EDIT:] Maybe I'm missing something here, so I'm open to correction. [end edit]

ninja900 wrote:

monument wrote:

faceman wrote:

cyclopath2001 wrote:

General perception would be : Speeding, weaving through moving traffic at high speed, illegal overtaking, amber light offences, illegal use of bus lanes, parking on footpaths and a high injury and fatality rate.

So bar the speeding and illegal use of bus lanes, bikers are just like cyclists?

No.

Cyclists don't weave thought traffic at high speed, there is not a high injury and fatality rate for cyclists, cyclists are not known for illegal overtaking, and parking a bicycle on a footpath is not illegal.

But, even if it was only speed alone, motorcyclists are far more dangerous to pedestrians, cyclists, and them selves.

Are you implying that motorcyclists are? Filtering is not illegal.

I'm not implying anything. I was replying to a thread of posts, as seen above.

ninja900 wrote:

AFAIK it is illegal to park a bicycle on a footpath except at a designated place.

Is it? Could you tell me under what law?

ninja900 wrote:

So it's ok if cyclists break the law? No. I'm a vulnerable road user (motorcyclist) and cyclists who ride recklessly put me at risk.

I never said it was ok for cyclists to brake the law, I said: "But, even if it was only speed alone [which separates cyclists from motorcyclists], motorcyclists are far more dangerous to pedestrians, cyclists, and them selves."

ninja900 wrote:

Motorcyclists have been killed crashing into, or attempting to avoid, cyclists who broke red lights.

In Ireland?... Any chance of backing that up?

Tarabuses

lord lucan wrote: »

if most cyclists started to obey the rules of the road i'd have some sympathy. i drive a motorbike and use buslanes regularly. i don't speed in them and pull out of the way of buses/taxis when neccesary and afford cyclists all the room needed. it then sickens me to see cyclists go straight through red lights,mount paths etc and think they are somehow above the law but bleet about motorbikes in buslanes. it's a joke and from my experience even the cops know it.

I am a bit puzzled by this thread since I regularly see motorbikes using the bus lane. In fact a motorcyclist colleague at work told me he was entitled to do this:rolleyes: I also see motorbikes using cycle lanes both with and without broken line markings. What ban

Victor

Guys, this has gone way off topic. The point being made is that there is already too much traffic in bus and cycle lanes and DCC are merely agreeing to the decision (by a group that included motorcyclists, but not pedal cyclists) to retain the ban. The point is also made, particularly about taxis.

DCC supports garda action against everyone who breaks the law. That said, some laws could do with updating.

A personal point of view, but the current status quo is useful - motorcyclists behave in bus lanes because they know they aren't meant to be there and the gardaí leave them alone once they don't over do it.

monument wrote: »

Is it? Could you tell me under what law?

A bicycle is a vehicle, it is illegal to park a vehicle on the footpath.

Tarabuses

Victor wrote: »

A personal point of view, but the current status quo is useful - motorcyclists behave in bus lanes because they know they aren't meant to be there and the gardaí leave them alone once they don't over do it.

Well that really takes the biscuit! I tried to bring the thread back on topic but I cannot accept that point of view. What is overdoing it? Driving in bus lanes to undertake the "obedient" traffic?

Quint

This is turning into a war between cyclists and motorcyclists! Both do plenty of illegal manouvers, i've no problem with cyclists breaking the lights, seems no cyclists has a problem with motorcycles in bus lanes so DCC are claiming this as a victory, presumably just to look good, it's definitely not a representation of cyclists!
Anyway, for congestion reasons, surely motorcycles should be encouraged into Dublin, like every other heavily congested city in the world?

cyclopath2001

Quint wrote: »

surely motorcycles should be encouraged into Dublin, like every other heavily congested city in the world?

Agreed in principle.

The main concern is the way motorcyclists get in the way of cyclists, especially in on-road cycle tracks. Some motorbikes are the size of a small car and just don't fit.

As the law stands at the moment they should not be in bus lanes, but they ignore the law and also invade cycle tracks which are inside bus lanes, using their speed and bulk to intimidate cyclists.

It's not clear if the people who've been abusing cyclists generally in this thread are motorcyclists, but if they are, they're going the wrong way about winning allies to have the law changed.

Quint

I don't think being friendly in a thread on boards will make a difference in getting the law changed. And after Gayo, MAG Ireland and tests that proved it's safer couldn't convince anyone to change the law, don't think it ever will! Motorcycles are rarely even considered as a form of transport by the DTA even though they're by far the best way of getting around the city. And the only allies needed is the police, the buslane thing has always been illegal but never enforced, I drove in the bus lane past police in glasnevin twice last week and there was no problem.
I drive in bicycle lanes too, but never once blocked a bicycle either. I know i'll never be stopped for that either.

faceman

monument wrote: »

Stuff...

I dont think Victor wants us to continue this discussion on this thread further, but I'll glady address your points in a new thread.

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Some motorbikes are the size of a small car.

The fish that got away - "i swear Ma, it was THIS big"! I dont know any standard bikes that are that big??

We're getting into an "us vs them" argument now. Given that I ride a motorcycle, drive a car and occasionally cycle to work Im not sure which demograph i should fall into.

Rawr

I'm pro-cycling myself and I have to say that I have no problem with Motorcycles in the Bus-lane.

I see a lot of tarring with the same brush here in this thread...cyclists break the rules, motorcyclists are fast and dangerous etc...

It doesn't really help the argument, which I guess is - should Motorcycles share the Bus-lane with it's other users? Within the scope of that, my view is that, yes, Motorcycles should be allowed. I don't see them as any more dangerous to a cyclist as a huge double-decker coming up your arse.

There will be reckless motorcyclists, that's a given. In the same way that there will be reckless cyclists, motorists etc... But I prefer to think of a person as innocent until proven otherwise, and just because a person dons a helmet and mounts a 2-wheel motor, I don't automatically see them as a threat to one's life. (Although visions of a Mad-Max like road chase come to mind:D) Same goes for the Bus-Drivers in the lane, I don't automatically think that they are out to kill me with their bus.

I have seen speeding and reckless motorcyclists, revving their motors and booting down side-roads for various reasons, but I've also seen that in motorists, and various other things from show-boating cyclists messing around...it's a fact of life that there will be clowns around, where sane people observe the rules and know the reasons for them.

I recon that road manners are the responsibility of all road-users, regardless of what you are riding / driving. I don't like this taking of a certain type of road user and saying - 'You are all bad because....'

In the end, we're all just trying to get somewhere.

/hippie speech

cyclopath2001

faceman wrote: »

The fish that got away - "i swear Ma, it was THIS big"! I dont know any standard bikes that are that big??

I was not referring to 'standard' bikes. I encounter all kinds of motorbikes, some very big, trying to squeeze down a cycle track (in a bus lane) with an effective width of 1 metre, usually just after they have overtaken, cut in front of me and forced me to stop. Not only is that kind of overtaking illegal, but under present law, they shouldn't be in the bus lane anyway.

I think if you compare the width of some of the big touring motorbikes with a Fiat Cinqucento or a Smart Car, my statement will be found to be just a small exaggeration for humourous effect. Feel free to quote me some motorbike widths and models and we can have a look at the suitability of these for using on-road cycle tracks of less than 1.5 metres in effective width..

Bottom line is that if motorcyclists played nice and stayed out of cycle tracks, I might consider supporting the legalising of their use of the balance of a bus lane.

Victor

Rawr wrote: »

It doesn't really help the argument, which I guess is - should Motorcycles share the Bus-lane with it's other users? Within the scope of that, my view is that, yes, Motorcycles should be allowed. I don't see them as any more dangerous to a cyclist as a huge double-decker coming up your arse.

Actually, the double decker isn't as much a risk as one might think based on size. A huge problem for cyclists is people passing too close to the side - buses rarely do that*. If the bus behind is too big for the gap, there driver isn't going to try anything. This is why it is good for a cyclist to command the centre of the lane when there is a risk of inappropriate overtaking by other vehicles.


* There is a problem with buses pulling back into the left and boxing in cyclists agaisnt the kerb

Rawr

I agree with you Victor. That's why I made the comparison there between the Motorbike and the Double-Decker. I'm thinking that the danger is perceived to be greater than it really is.

Red Alert

I take issue with the word 'abusing cyclists' - the fact of the matter is that cyclists behave in a dreadful fashion and by virtue of not needing a license they can get away with breaking many laws. I'm not a motorcyclist, just a car driver to answer that poster.

Most motorcyclists I've come across are obedient of the law, and make safe decisions based on the road conditions at the time. Personally I'd have no problem legalising their entry into bus lanes.

As with anything, there's always the possibility for local arrangements in certain areas - such as a 'No Motorbikes' sign on a bus lane.

cyclopath2001

Red Alert wrote: »

I take issue with the word 'abusing cyclists' - the fact of the matter is that cyclists behave in a dreadful fashion and by virtue of not needing a license they can get away with breaking many laws. I'm not a motorcyclist, just a car driver to answer that poster.

But this is abuse. It's unbalanced and not based on fact. Motorists break far more regulations than cyclists. They do so more often and with more serious results. Cyclists can be and are penalised, with or without a driving license.

The above line of debate is a distraction from the practical issue of whether or not motorcyclists pose a nuisance or hazard to cyclists in bus lanes and the cycle tracks within them.

murphaph

What about a compromise? On buslanes with parallel off street cycle lanes/tracks make it compulsory for cyclists to use these and allow motorbikes in the bus lane to try to keep the bikers safe.

On roads with no cycle lane/track but with a buslane, only allow buses and cyclists in the bus lane.

(I'm against taxis being allowed to use buslanes at any time as I fail to see the benefit to society of doing so. It's public transport in only the most technical sense!)

vektarman

I'm open to correction on this but aren't there some bus lanes in Dublin open to motorcyclists, eg. Blackhall place (southbound), South great Georges street when turning right on to Dame street, North Frederick street and Parnell street east?

murphaph

vektarman wrote: »

I'm open to correction on this but aren't there some bus lanes in Dublin open to motorcyclists, eg. Blackhall place (southbound), South great Georges street when turning right on to Dame street, North Frederick street and Parnell street east?

I think some of them are actually "no entries" with the above exceptions. There was one on Pearse Street anyway which was like this. It had a manky non-tsm compliant exception plate stuck on it as an afterthought.

vektarman

murphaph wrote: »

I think some of them are actually "no entries" with the above exceptions. There was one on Pearse Street anyway which was like this. It had a manky non-tsm compliant exception plate stuck on it as an afterthought.

I agree, however it does show that there are 'bus' lanes in Dublin where cyclists and motorcylists share the same lane legally, I'm just wondering why this can't spread to the rest of the city.

Hotblack Desiato

vektarman wrote: »

I agree, however it does show that there are 'bus' lanes in Dublin where cyclists and motorcylists share the same lane legally, I'm just wondering why this can't spread to the rest of the city.

Also don't forget that motorcycles legally and safely share the bus lanes with buses, taxis and YES, even cyclists.. in the non-bus-lane hours.

The safety arguments being put forward are nonsense. Motorcycles already share bus lanes with cyclists, legally outside bus lane hours, illegally within those hours, but there is no evidence whatsoever of any safety issue. None.

Bus lanes are a traffic management tool, anyway, not a safety tool. It's arguable whether they improve cyclist safety at all. I think everyone is in agreement that we need proper cycle lanes wherever possible, and sticking a bit of red tarmac into a bus lane that's often barely wide enough for a bus anyway is a sad joke.

So we should be looking at bus lanes only from the traffic management point of view. There is simply no case to exclude motorcycles from bus lanes, whether with 'cycle lane' or not, they do not hold up buses, taxis etc. and do not endanger cyclists. But the official argument is basically to oppose this in any way possible, e.g. misquote outdated UK policy documents which have been superseded (bikes in bus lanes working very well in an increasing number of UK cities), then bring up spurious safety arguments, then to say "ah well if we let them in then everyone will want to get in" which is just ridiculous nonsense. Motorcyclists are well used to hearing ridiculous nonsense though. John Henry of the DTO once claimed that a valid reason to exclude motorcyclists from bus lanes was that they were 'higher than cars'.

Minds are made up on this one and really there is no point having a 'debate', the official position will not change. It's like when the Green Party call for a 'debate' on nuclear power, when we all know they will not contemplate it under any circumstances (except to hypocritically buy it from France and the UK, but that's another thread...)

Victor wrote: »

Guys, this has gone way off topic. The point being made is that there is already too much traffic in bus and cycle lanes

Perhaps, but that's a nonsense where motorcycles are concerned, as they do not get stuck in the bus lanes. Cyclopath is claiming that motorcycles are getting stuck in cycle lanes, I've never seen this and would not support motorcycles being legally allowed into the cycle lane part of a bus lane anyway. It's a bogus argument as far as I'm concerned, any sensible motorcyclist will go out of their way not to obstruct cyclists.

and DCC are merely agreeing to the decision (by a group that included motorcyclists, but not pedal cyclists) to retain the ban. The point is also made, particularly about taxis.

Whether DCC agree to the ban or not is irrelevant, it's a national legislative ban.

With respect, you, the media and the general public have been sold a pup about 'consultation' with motorcyclists. It's rubbish, it didn't happen. MAG Ireland was not invited to sit on this review body, report to it, or even officialy informed that the review was taking place. If there really were motorcyclists sitting on this review body, I'd love to know who they were, who they were representing - it wasn't Irish motorcyclists as a whole, that's for sure.

DCC supports garda action against everyone who breaks the law.

Again, what is the relevance of this comment, I'm puzzled.
DCC have actually been supportive of motorcycling in the sense of allowing the right turn at Sth. Gt. George's St, left turn at Dawson St. etc. but these are nominally bus lanes only, there are markings but no blue bus lane sign (the ban on cars is enforced by a no left/right/entry sign as appropriate.) It makes no sense at all to allow motorcycles into these pseudo bus lanes but not into 'real' ones which are identical to all intents and purposes.
The best solution is to do as the UK does - no national ban, allow local authorities to allow motorcycles in bus lanes as they see fit. Then everyone can lobby their local authority, not have some RSA body, the make up of which is unknown, which is unelected and answerable to nobody, deliberating behind closed doors.

cyclopath2001

ninja900 wrote: »

Cyclopath is claiming that motorcycles are getting stuck in cycle lanes, I've never seen this

Never? Seriously, not ever? You're going out on a limb there.

ninja900 wrote: »

any sensible motorcyclist will go out of their way not to obstruct cyclists.

Agreed then: Let's allow only sensible motorcyclists use bus lanes. Now, what will we do about the others, the idiot motorcyclists?

I share your frustration about the lack of consultation and the way valuable road space that could be used more efficiently by motorbikes is presently being wasted by cars. I've seen motorbike traffic in various countries in Asia, they're great people movers, often not very fast, but constantly flowing.

Quint

I always thought the problem with bus lanes is the buses. Get rid of them and taxis, and leave the bus lanes to bikes and motorcycles

glenn_lfc

I dont understand what the point of not having motorbikes in the bus lanes would be. bus lanes are designed to help and promote busses as means of transport - IN ORDER TO FREE UP CONGESTION.

I have a daily commute through town and have the option of driving a large saloon car which I will be the only passenger or taking my motorbike.
Surely its in the DCCs and other commuters interestests that I take the bike.

We should be given some incentives for biking

Edit:
Bus lanes YES. Cycle lanes- ABSOLUTELY NOT. Their journey is risky enough and again- an incentive of their own lane for safety

monument

I generally take what the RSA says with a bucket of salt, but with stats like the ones in this post here any government, safety body, transport body etc to openly promote motorbike usage would be crazy.

DCC supports garda action against everyone who breaks the law

Again, what is the relevance of this comment, I'm puzzled.

I'm guessing the relevance of what he is saying is that the Dublin Cycling Campaign isn't just picking on bikers.

I take issue with the word 'abusing cyclists' - the fact of the matter is that cyclists behave in a dreadful fashion and by virtue of not needing a license they can get away with breaking many laws. I'm not a motorcyclist, just a car driver to answer that poster.

The police do stop cyclists for braking the law. And having a license or not doesn't seam to affect the general bad standard of driving in this country.

The difference is, as cyclopath2001 pointed out, motorists' bad driving is more likely to harm them self and/or others.

The best solution is to do as the UK does - no national ban, allow local authorities to allow motorcycles in bus lanes as they see fit. Then everyone can lobby their local authority, not have some RSA body, the make up of which is unknown, which is unelected and answerable to nobody, deliberating behind closed doors.

It looks like it was not just the RSA acting on their own, from the Motors supplement in the Irish Times: "A spokesman for the RSA said an expert group comprising gardaí, Dublin City Council, the Dublin Transport Office and expert motorcyclists, had been established to consider the TRL report and recommended no change. The spokesman added that a report was being prepared for the Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey."

With respect, you, the media and the general public have been sold a pup about 'consultation' with motorcyclists. It's rubbish, it didn't happen. MAG Ireland was not invited to sit on this review body, report to it, or even officialy informed that the review was taking place. If there really were motorcyclists sitting on this review body, I'd love to know who they were, who they were representing - it wasn't Irish motorcyclists as a whole, that's for sure.

They probably should have had better consultation, but no lobby group etc can really claim to represent all motorcyclists, motorists, cyclists, etc.

Pineapple stu

Can anyone tell me why some cyclists think its ok to use a cycle line in the wrong direction i.e towards oncoming traffic.

monument

Because they are idiots.

Acts like that endanger them selves and others.

glenn_lfc

Monument let me throw some stats back at you if i may,


Im presuming that we are mainly talking about rush hour, city centre driving here btw.


You pointed to the RSA stats and the high levels of death of bikers. Remember that these figures are just lumped together. 40% of those who were killed were at the weekend.

PLUS nearly 70% of all motorbike deaths in last 10 years were outside what the RSA calls "built up areas" or in high speed limit areas.

That should put the dangerous drivers causing deaths in the city argument to rest.

The police do stop cyclists for braking the law.

I would LOVE to see some figures of people who action has been taken against for cycling offences. I'd imagine its a one handed counting job.

I drive and bike through dublin city every day and they both have risks- biking obviously higher but to cut my commute from an hour and a half to 30 mins I am willing to take risks (of that of other careless drivers). As I said above it surely is more benificial to reward bikers -both pedal and motor in a city.

monument

The RSA also adds: "However, the majority (75%) of bikers are injured as a result of collisions within towns and cities". And how many bike commutes include sections which are "outside what the RSA calls "built up areas" or in high speed limit areas"?

Also promoting commuting motorcycling is likely to increase weekend usage too.

glenn_lfc wrote: »

I would LOVE to see some figures of people who action has been taken against for cycling offences. I'd imagine its a one handed counting job..

Yes, it is likely a low number, but for reasons which can be explained:

1. Cycling - like motorcycling - accounts for a low percentage of total traffic.
2. Cyclists are the least likely traffic to harm the road users at most risk - pedestrian.
3. Bicycles cannot archive high speeds and speeding is one of the main law enforcement targets.
4. Traffic light offences - one of the main things cyclists have been accused of on this thread - go unchecked for the vast majority of traffic, not just cyclists.