[PR] Cyclists Welcome Continuing Ban on Motorbikes Use of Bus Lanes

Victor

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Cyclists Welcome Continuing Ban on Motorbike Riders Use of Bus Lanes

Date: 28 July 2008. For immediate use.

The Dublin Cycling Campaign welcomes the Road Safety Authority's recent announcement that it cannot recommend the opening up of bus/cycle lanes to motorbike use.

The Dublin Cycling Campaign has never agreed with the use by some motor bike riders of bus/cycle lanes. A general and unwarranted assumption has been made by too many motor bike riders that it is permissible to ride in bus/cycle lanes and there seems to be no Garda action to enforce the existing legal ban. [see SI No. 182 of 1997. Section 32. (2).]

The Campaign now calls on the Garda to enforce Section 32 of the road traffic regulations No. 182 of 1997 where only omnibuses and bicycles are permitted legally to be in a bus/cycle lane. Taxis are permitted to use these lanes only while on business – that is with the meter operational and a fare present.

This also should mean that action will be taken against taxi drivers who are driving in a bus/cycle lane without a fare on board and the meter operational. A recent survey conducted by this Campaign determined that 56% of taxis in the bus/cycle lane in Pearse Street had no passenger present.

There are too many vehicles using bus/cycle lanes where the driver is overtaking cyclists too close (failing to leave a separation distance of a least 1.5 m) and too fast. This intimidates cyclists.

If this society is to meet its Kyoto transport greenhouse gas reduction targets more commuters are going to have to abandon their cars and take up cycling to work, college and school. Riders need to feel safe on urban roads and in bus/cycle lanes.

ENDS

lord lucan

if most cyclists started to obey the rules of the road i'd have some sympathy. i drive a motorbike and use buslanes regularly. i don't speed in them and pull out of the way of buses/taxis when neccesary and afford cyclists all the room needed. it then sickens me to see cyclists go straight through red lights,mount paths etc and think they are somehow above the law but bleet about motorbikes in buslanes. it's a joke and from my experience even the cops know it.

faceman

What did the RSA base that decision on? It works in many other countries and cities.

Emissions from motorcycles are far lower than (most) buses and cars.
It is safer for motorcyclists to ride in a bus lane.
It prevents bikers from filtering on the wrong side of the road

With such a low percentage of commuters currently cycling, Ireland's atrocious weather and given that more and more people are moving to satellite towns, I fail to see how we are going to see any large increase in cyclists on the road.

Ironic that the Dublin Cycling Campaign is pushing for strict enforcement of bus lane use when there is no enforcement of traffic laws (which cyclists must obey) on the road for cyclists.

Then again, if you charge every cyclist who doesnt have lights on their bike and breaks red lights, that remove 90% of cyclists from the road...

John_C

lord lucan wrote: »

if most cyclists started to obey the rules of the road i'd have some sympathy. i drive a motorbike and use buslanes regularly.

.....[/hypocrisy]

cyclopath2001

Show-piece cycle facility outside of Dublin Tourism's HQ.

Zoney

lord lucan wrote: »

if most cyclists started to obey the rules of the road i'd have some sympathy. i drive a motorbike and use buslanes regularly. i don't speed in them and pull out of the way of buses/taxis when neccesary and afford cyclists all the room needed. it then sickens me to see cyclists go straight through red lights,mount paths etc and think they are somehow above the law but bleet about motorbikes in buslanes. it's a joke and from my experience even the cops know it.

Tbh a lot of motorists do not observe the rules of the road much better than the average cyclist. Was crossing a junction at green man today and a car sped down the road managing to get halfway through the junction before stopping.

It's a lot more serious too even the minor issues where motorists don't observe the rules - e.g. indicators (esp. at roundabouts and left turns!!). Not using them can mean a dead pedestrian or cyclist.

Steve

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Show-piece cycle facility outside of Dublin Tourism's HQ.

I fail to see how ^^^ that's relevant to motorbikes using bus lanes tbh.

Personally, I don't see why motorcyclists shouldn't be allowed use bus lanes - they don't take up much space on the road and it's a lot safer than them squeezing between lines of cars.
IMO it would be a fair use of otherwise empty road space.

Pete4779

lord lucan wrote: »

if most cyclists started to obey the rules of the road i'd have some sympathy. i drive a motorbike and use buslanes regularly. i don't speed in them and pull out of the way of buses/taxis when neccesary and afford cyclists all the room needed. it then sickens me to see cyclists go straight through red lights,mount paths etc and think they are somehow above the law but bleet about motorbikes in buslanes. it's a joke and from my experience even the cops know it.

That's damn right. A crazy cyclist could hit you and kill you, whereas you doing 40kph on a motorcycle would barely scratch a cyclist at all in a collision.

Same with pedestrians - they cross the road when there is a red man on the lights! FFS! I don't speed, but one of those lawbreaking jawwalkers could kill me if they hit while breaking the law. I on the other hand in my car wouldn't even dent a pedestrian's head if I rolled over it.

lord lucan

John_C wrote: »

.....[/hypocrisy]

i'm not holding myself up as some sort of irish road safety hero. i'm merely making the point that cyclists go on about what a rough time they have on our roads but a lot(not all) of them do their cause no favours by completely disregarding the rules of the road themselves. most bikers will admit to using buslanes,check a thread on the motorbike forum and you'll see many who've been waved on by the cops or the cops have turned a blind eye. as has been mentioned,if you were to pull every cyclist for lack of lights etc. there'd be seriously fewer bikes on the road. there's multiple breaks of rules governing our roads every day all over this country,some imo. are more serious than others,motorbikes in buslanes is not a serious one imho.

cyclopath2001

lord lucan wrote: »

if you were to pull every cyclist for lack of lights etc. there'd be seriously fewer bikes on the road. there's multiple breaks of rules governing our roads every day all over this country,some imo. are more serious than others,motorbikes in buslanes is not a serious one imho.

It's the theory of the 'one broken window'. Let one window in a neighbourhood remain unrepaired and pretty soon the whole place goes bad.

As my picture illustrates, there's a very laissez-faire attitude to the law in general, lots of 'Irish solutions' where laws are passed and then selectively enforced according to unwritten rules. If you look over in 'motoring', you'll see that so-called 'petrol heads' are in engaged in a campaign of civil disobedience against speed limits they find inconvenient, cheered on by other posters pretending to be Gardai.

By all means, fine cyclists and motorists for failing to stop on amber, ditto for no lights at night, speeding or obstruction. It's time this country took itself and its laws seriously.

As for motorcyclists, I'd be happy enough if they stayed out of the few cycle tracks that are actually passable. Cars are main problem, the amount of space wasted is absurd.

kdouglas

I agree with not having motorbikes in Cycle lans, they are for cycling, but motorbikes should definitely be allowed use bus lanes, much safer than filtering through a line of traffic.


I also used to cycle alot around Dublin city centre and can understand what it's like to be a cyclist, I sometimes didn't stop at a red light, but only if the pedestrian light was green at a junction or it was safe for me to go straight and stay out of the way of traffic, i'd never go through if there was going to be other traffic crossing, that's just suicide.
The main reason for doing this was simply to keep moving, on a bike or in a car, getting moving again is as simple as opening the throttle/pressing the accelerator, when stopping on a push bike, it wastes alot of energy to have to stop and get moving again.

penexpers

lord lucan wrote: »

i'm not holding myself up as some sort of irish road safety hero. i'm merely making the point that cyclists go on about what a rough time they have on our roads but a lot(not all) of them do their cause no favours by completely disregarding the rules of the road themselves. most bikers will admit to using buslanes,check a thread on the motorbike forum and you'll see many who've been waved on by the cops or the cops have turned a blind eye. as has been mentioned,if you were to pull every cyclist for lack of lights etc. there'd be seriously fewer bikes on the road. there's multiple breaks of rules governing our roads every day all over this country,some imo. are more serious than others,motorbikes in buslanes is not a serious one imho.

Would most motorbike riders admit to using cycle lanes whenever it suits them?

bauderline

It would be my experience that most laws which are not enforced are either unenforcable or just plain dumb.

P.

Hotblack Desiato

penexpers wrote: »

Would most motorbike riders admit to using cycle lanes whenever it suits them?

No. I've never used a cycle lane (i.e. off road, or with continuous white line) and have never seen a motorcycle using an off-road cycle lane.

'Cycle lanes' with broken white lines can be legally used by all traffic. Yes, yes, I know.

The subject of this thread is not cycle lanes, but bus lanes.

How on earth cyclists can be OK with having buses fly past them with millimetres to spare, craxy taxi antics, but give out about motorcycles (far narrower and m/c riders appreciate the dynamics and risks of riding a two wheeled vehicle, cagers don't) beats the hell out of me.

Idiotic announcements like this one erode what little credibility the Dublin Cycling Campaign has left.

Any cyclist I've spoken with has no problem with bikes in bus lanes, but all sorts of stories about buses and taxis. I've seen Dublin Buses run cyclists off the road FFS.

murphaph

penexpers wrote: »

Would most motorbike riders admit to using cycle lanes whenever it suits them?

I would admit to using a bus lane, not a cycle lane unless it's one with dashed lines "when it suits me" however is all the time because so many car drivers simply don't see me so it's safer for me to stay in the bus lane when/where possible. I make sure I give cyclists a wide berth, always signalling as I pass them as I consider them just as vulnerable on the road as myself. I always make sure not to hinder a bus in a bus lane in any way and beyond that I can't see what harm it is if it's a much safer alternative to mixing with blind car drivers.

I often see bicycles using bus lanes even where there's a dedicated 'high quality' cycle track just to the left. I don't moan about it-I understand the cyclists don't like the way off road cycle tracks invariably have multiple give ways at every bus stop and junction so they prefer the buslane.

Bikers and cyclists have much more in common than in difference.

murphaph

ninja900 wrote: »

No. I've never used a cycle lane (i.e. off road, or with continuous white line) and have never seen a motorcycle using an off-road cycle lane.

'Cycle lanes' with broken white lines can be legally used by all traffic. Yes, yes, I know.

The subject of this thread is not cycle lanes, but bus lanes.

How on earth cyclists can be OK with having buses fly past them with millimetres to spare, craxy taxi antics, but give out about motorcycles (far narrower and m/c riders appreciate the dynamics and risks of riding a two wheeled vehicle, cagers don't) beats the hell out of me.

Idiotic announcements like this one erode what little credibility the Dublin Cycling Campaign has left.

Any cyclist I've spoken with has no problem with bikes in bus lanes, but all sorts of stories about buses and taxis. I've seen Dublin Buses run cyclists off the road FFS.

Exactly-bikers can give a wide berth to cyclists whereas buses and taxis simply push past with inches between them and the cyclist. It does make the Dublin Cycling Campaign look rather silly.

Quint

I think the reason for this ban is because politicions and DTA want everyone cycling and on public transport. For some reason they discourage motorcycles even though they cut congestion. A spokesman for dublin transport authority on the The Right Hook a while back actually said 1 motorcycle takes up the same space as 1 car on the road!
It was proven in England that it's far safer for bikers to use buslanes, I know a lot of cyclists and they have no problem with it, I didn't when I cycled. I don't know who this Dublin Cycling Campaign is, but it doesn't represent me or any cyclist I know.

markpb

I've been an (inactive) member of DCC for a few years and I fully support their work but I completely disagree with them on this policy. I've no problem with *courteous* bikers in the bus lane and, if they're careful, I don't even care about them using the bike lane if the traffic is backed up.

Duzzie

penexpers wrote: »

Would most motorbike riders admit to using cycle lanes whenever it suits them?

I am a motorcyclist and I never use cycle tracks. When I am riding and have the option of filtering or using a cycle lane, I will always filter.

As others have said, the vast majority of bikers who do use bus lanes give cyclists a wide berth. After all we are as vulnerable, an infact more so than cyclists.

Cyclists are under very little threat from Motorcycles, they are much more vulnerable to being hit by cars, taxis and busses. It is a fact that your average motorcyclist is alot more aware of what is going on around them than your average car driver.

The safety benifits of motorcyclists using bus lanes has been very well demonstrated in trials in the UK and in the rest of Europe. Cyclists do have an argument to make on a number of issues but opposing motorcycles in bus is not one of them. Motorcylists show cyclists a lot more respect than most car drivers and tend to give them plenty of space.

jimmycrackcorm

I've taken up cycling, I have no problem with bikers in the bus lane as I think they are more vulnerable to traffic conditions and are consequently more aware of the dangers to cyclists themselves. I too would prefer being overtaken by a motorbike than by a bus or taxi.

monument

If motorcyclists want to be arguing for use of the bus lanes, fine.

But could some of you cut out the anti-cycling bull****, and keep your non-factual nonsense about cycling to your self? Please and thank you.

Just to be clear, I am bit bewildered by the Dublin Cycling Campaign statement. But I'd imagine it is taken from the point of view of not wanting more traffic in the bus lanes when trying to promote cycling while there is no curb-separated cycling lanes around the city.

faceman wrote: »

With such a low percentage of commuters currently cycling, Ireland's atrocious weather and given that more and more people are moving to satellite towns, I fail to see how we are going to see any large increase in cyclists on the road.

Dublin City Council reported a 17 percent increase in cycling in the last year. Is that large enough? And more and more people are also living in apartments and higher density developments than ever before.

"Ireland's atrocious weather"??? Dublin's weather is close to the weather in Copenhagen, where there is a high rate of cycling.

faceman wrote: »

Ironic that the Dublin Cycling Campaign is pushing for strict enforcement of bus lane use when there is no enforcement of traffic laws (which cyclists must obey) on the road for cyclists.

Sorry, but are the DCC advocating for cyclists to be allowed to break the law? If not, I can't see your point.

Maybe you're try to go along the lines of "all cyclists break the law", so, it's ironic? Because with the reputation motorcyclists have, that would be quite ironic.

lord lucan wrote: »

if most cyclists started to obey the rules of the road i'd have some sympathy. i drive a motorbike and use buslanes regularly. i don't speed in them and pull out of the way of buses/taxis when neccesary and afford cyclists all the room needed. it then sickens me to see cyclists go straight through red lights,mount paths etc and think they are somehow above the law but bleet about motorbikes in buslanes. it's a joke and from my experience even the cops know it.

You have to be taking the piss?

faceman wrote: »

Then again, if you charge every cyclist who doesnt have lights on their bike and breaks red lights, that remove 90% of cyclists from the road...

lord lucan wrote: »

...if you were to pull every cyclist for lack of lights etc. there'd be seriously fewer bikes on the road.

I'd very much so welcome police enforcement on cyclists without lights... but what do the two of you mean by there be fewer bikes on the road?

Bike lights don't cost that much to get, but what could you two mean anyway? Are the cyclists going to be brought before a court and banned from the road?

lord lucan wrote: »

...there's multiple breaks of rules governing our roads every day all over this country,some imo. are more serious than others,motorbikes in buslanes is not a serious one imho.

I would agree with you, but as cyclopath2001 points out once there's one broken window, there'll be more. Even with traffic laws alone, it's why New York like zero tolerance works - it is the opposite and positive to the broke window theory.

Zebra3

ninja900 wrote: »

How on earth cyclists can be OK with having buses fly past them with millimetres to spare, craxy taxi antics, but give out about motorcycles (far narrower and m/c riders appreciate the dynamics and risks of riding a two wheeled vehicle, cagers don't) beats the hell out of me.

Idiotic announcements like this one erode what little credibility the Dublin Cycling Campaign has left.

Any cyclist I've spoken with has no problem with bikes in bus lanes, but all sorts of stories about buses and taxis. I've seen Dublin Buses run cyclists off the road FFS.

Totally agree with that. As a cyclist and a motor biker.

murphaph wrote: »

Bikers and cyclists have much more in common than in difference.

Yep, DCC are fighting the wrong war here.

cyclopath2001

monument wrote: »

Bike lights don't cost that much to get,

I think that cyclists could adapt and comply far more quickly to a stricter regime than motorists.

But to get back on topic, the reason why the issue of motorbikes in cycle tracks is related to motorbikes in bus lanes, is that once you let them into the bus lanes, they can then also use the cycle tracks with broken white line markings. With some motorbikes being the size of a small car, that's just not appropriate. I'm regularly overtaken by motorbikes, who then get stuck in front of me trying to go through gaps barely adequate for bicycles. Since the law is mostly not enforced, we can already see for ourselves what would happen if the law was changed.

As to Dublin Cycling Campaign, their heart's in the right place, but thyey don't pick the right battles to fight.

uberwolf

I can't understand why motorbikes cause a safety problem for cyclists relative to buses and taxi's. They have a greater appreciation, and don't squeeze past.

faceman

monument wrote: »

If motorcyclists want to be arguing for use of the bus lanes, fine.

But could some of you cut out the anti-cycling bull****, and keep your non-factual nonsense about cycling to your self? Please and thank you.

I aint attacked cyclists. i will attack dangerous habits and poor city planning.

wrote:

Dublin City Council reported a 17 percent increase in cycling in the last year. Is that large enough? And more and more people are also living in apartments and higher density developments than ever before.

How did they produce this data? I find it difficult to believe. Does it include suburbs where kids cycle to school

wrote:

"Ireland's atrocious weather"??? Dublin's weather is close to the weather in Copenhagen, where there is a high rate of cycling.

Yes but cycling promotion is Copenhagen is completely different.
There are dedicated cycle lanes which are often separate to the main road.
There are bicycle hire stands all over the city.
The city is relatively flat in terms of terrain.
Traffic rules are strictly enforced for cyclists.
Public transport has facilities for cyclists to bring their bike on.
Scooters are permitted to use cycle lanes

wrote:

Sorry, but are the DCC advocating for cyclists to be allowed to break the law? If not, I can't see your point.

Maybe you're try to go along the lines of "all cyclists break the law", so, it's ironic? Because with the reputation motorcyclists have, that would be quite ironic.

What do the DCC do to promote safe cycling? MAG Ireland do alot to promote safe motorcycling. Is it comparable?

What reputation do motorcyclists have?

wrote:

I'd very much so welcome police enforcement on cyclists without lights... but what do the two of you mean by there be fewer bikes on the road?

Bike lights don't cost that much to get, but what could you two mean anyway? Are the cyclists going to be brought before a court and banned from the road?

If cyclists were charged with breaking traffic laws there would be less cyclists on the road. So do we promote bicycle safety by brushing traffic laws aside for the most vulnerable road user????

cyclopath2001

uberwolf wrote: »

I can't understand why motorbikes cause a safety problem for cyclists relative to buses and taxi's. They have a greater appreciation, and don't squeeze past.

Actually, the Cycling Campaign did not say that motorbikes were a safety problem for cyclists.

My opinion is that they are a nuisance if they obstruct cyclists having overtaken a cyclist ,they stop in a cycle track because their vehicles are too big. Under the present overtaking law, you must not overtake, if to do so would cause inconvenience to another.

Personally, I'd agree to them being permitted in bus lanes, if they were not permitted to use any kind of cycle track and if the overtaking regulations were properly enforced.

What the Cycling Campaign said was "There are too many vehicles using bus/cycle lanes where the driver is overtaking cyclists too close (failing to leave a separation distance of a least 1.5 m) and too fast. This intimidates cyclists.. They referred specifically to taxis without passengers and I think I could also add private-hire buses and security vans to the list.

faceman wrote:

What reputation do motorcyclists have?

General perception would be : Speeding, weaving through moving traffic at high speed, illegal overtaking, amber light offences, illegal use of bus lanes, parking on footpaths and a high injury and fatality rate.

Red Alert

Motorcyclists, in my opinion, have more consideration for other motorists than cyclists do. No other road users apart from the cyclists routinely break traffic lights and hog the road for long stretches. Many don't check over their shoulder before starting off, yet more don't realise that a signal to turn left or right only shows intent and doesn't confer right of way.

cyclopath2001

Red Alert wrote: »

No other road users apart from the cyclists routinely break traffic lights

I don't deny cyclist ride through red lights, but what you say is not based on fact.

The rule is to stop on amber and before the stop line. Every day, I see a great many drivers failing to do stop at each and every traffic junction. Mostly cars don't break red lights because there is somebody stopped in front of them. On my route home is a right hand filter junction where traffic must wait for a dedicated geen light. Motorists routinely ignore the red, often cutting across a pedestrian crossing which is lit for pedestrians.

Red Alert wrote: »

and hog the road for long stretches.

Cars hog enormous amounts of roadspace.

Red Alert wrote: »

Many don't check over their shoulder before starting off, yet more don't realise that a signal to turn left or right only shows intent and doesn't confer right of way.

Many drivers don't know that when overtaking a vehicle in the same lane as themselves, they must give way to that vehicle, if it's turning.

If we adopted a zero tolerance policy on traffic offences, motorists would have the most to lose.

Red Alert

Cyclists routinely break lights outside of the 'changing' phase. For example, they think they can break pedestrian lights whilst pedestrians are crossing, they don't obey rules like 'straight ahead arrows'. There's a difference between someone running a red light when the lights change (because as a motorist you'll be vigilant for someone doing that just after a change) and blatantly disregarding the traffic signals as the clear majority of cyclists do.

Cars consume more road space, as they are physically bigger. Same goes for buses. What I mean by hogging road space is when a cyclist who could pull in and let a bus full of people by on a narrow road won't do it, and then the bus has to plod along at about 10 mph behind them.

I have constantly to make sudden allowances for dangerous road behaviour by cyclists.

Ste.phen

I have to agree with some of the other posters here, there are a HUGELY disproportionate number of cyclists that not only run red lights, but completely ignore them, along with other laws.
We need better enforcement for everyone; cars, cyclists and motorcycles. My own pet hates as a cyclist are:
Other cyclists *starting* to move off when the lights are red, and not going to change anytime soon
Cars using bus lanes they shouldn't be in, and beeping at me on my bike because they have to slow down to not kill me

faceman

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

General perception would be : Speeding, weaving through moving traffic at high speed, illegal overtaking, amber light offences, illegal use of bus lanes, parking on footpaths and a high injury and fatality rate.

So bar the speeding and illegal use of bus lanes, bikers are just like cyclists?