IRA/UVF killings

ballybay_eh

Apologies if this topic is a bit sensitive. I'll remove if others feel it is.

I remember my father told me a story when I was young about some of the killings that took place during the Troubles. One story in particular came back to me recently but I can only remember the vaguest details about it.

Apparently a Gaelic football team were on their way back from a football match and there bus was stopped by either the IRA or the UVF (can't remember). They were made to get out of the bus and line up. They were then asked one by one what religion they were. All the players except for one were Catholic/Protestant (again, can't remember). All the players were shot except for the one player of the different religion.

Hopefully that will refresh someone's memory and they can fill in the gaps. It may be a sort of urban legend of the hatred and brutality of the times but I would like to know the full details. When? Where? And which "side" actually did the killing.

Fratton Fred

ballybay_eh wrote: »

Apologies if this topic is a bit sensitive. I'll remove if others feel it is.

I remember my father told me a story when I was young about some of the killings that took place during the Troubles. One story in particular came back to me recently but I can only remember the vaguest details about it.

Apparently a Gaelic football team were on their way back from a football match and there bus was stopped by either the IRA or the UVF (can't remember). They were made to get out of the bus and line up. They were then asked one by one what religion they were. All the players except for one were Catholic/Protestant (again, can't remember). All the players were shot except for the one player of the different religion.

Hopefully that will refresh someone's memory and they can fill in the gaps. It may be a sort of urban legend of the hatred and brutality of the times but I would like to know the full details. When? Where? And which "side" actually did the killing.

I would hazard a guess and say the details of that story change depending on who is telling it.

Lizzykins

I think that was a massacre of protestant workmen on their way to or from work. Sometime in the 1970s. There was one Catholic amongst them and they tried to hide him as they thought it was UDA/UVF gunmen who had stopped them. Unfortunately it was the IRA and they shot all the protestant guys-10 of them as far as I remember. The catholic guy survived. Desperate times.

brianthebard

Wtf what was wrong with the ah thread?Are you trolling op?

Fabio

It was linen workers...I remember studiying a poem by Patrick Kavanagh I think which was based on the whole event...very sad.

Lizzykins

No that's years after patrick Kavanagh died.

OS119

ballybay_eh wrote: »

Apologies if this topic is a bit sensitive. I'll remove if others feel it is.

I remember my father told me a story when I was young about some of the killings that took place during the Troubles. One story in particular came back to me recently but I can only remember the vaguest details about it.

Apparently a Gaelic football team were on their way back from a football match and there bus was stopped by either the IRA or the UVF (can't remember). They were made to get out of the bus and line up. They were then asked one by one what religion they were. All the players except for one were Catholic/Protestant (again, can't remember). All the players were shot except for the one player of the different religion.

Hopefully that will refresh someone's memory and they can fill in the gaps. It may be a sort of urban legend of the hatred and brutality of the times but I would like to know the full details. When? Where? And which "side" actually did the killing.

the story is remarkably similar in structure to the Kingsmill massacre/attack/attrocity (delete according to taste) in the 1976.

short version: a van full of construction workers (i think on the way to a project for the security forces - hence the 'justification') is stopped out in the middle of nowhere in South Armagh by a PIRA ASU dressed in British camouflage uniforms. they ask for the mens religions and the one Catholic bloke is told to 'fcuk off and don't look back', the eleven men remaining - the prods - are then shot. 10 died, 1 survived.

PIRA, not liking being blamed for a nakedly sectarian murder-fest and the opprobrium that decended on them from 'their people', decided that they didn't do it and an organisation that no one had heard of previously or since, the South Armagh Republican Action Force came forward to take the blame.

two of the M-16 rifles used in the attack were found in a PIRA arms dump in Cullyhanna, South Armagh, in 1990, collectively they had been used in 17 killings between 1974 and 1990.

its quite possible that other events took a broadly similar course, and therefore that the story told by the op doesn't relate specifically to Kingsmill, but sadly that is one of the rather more sordid realities of 'the troubles' - something so appalling could indeed have half a dozen 'peers'.

Zebra3

I may be wrong, but from what I can remember from reading Bandit Country years ago, the attack was carried out in retaliation for the killing of a number of innocent Catholics in the south Armagh area by Loyalists over a preceding number of months/years and the IRA's thinking behind the attack was also to warn Loyalists not to even think about targeting random Catholics (as summed up in Loyalists ATD graffitti).

Lizzykins

OS119 wrote: »

the story is remarkably similar in structure to the Kingsmill massacre/attack/attrocity (delete according to taste) in the 1976.

short version: a van full of construction workers (i think on the way to a project for the security forces - hence the 'justification') is stopped out in the middle of nowhere in South Armagh by a PIRA ASU dressed in British camouflage uniforms. they ask for the mens religions and the one Catholic bloke is told to 'fcuk off and don't look back', the eleven men remaining - the prods - are then shot. 10 died, 1 survived.

PIRA, not liking being blamed for a nakedly sectarian murder-fest and the opprobrium that decended on them from 'their people', decided that they didn't do it and an organisation that no one had heard of previously or since, the South Armagh Republican Action Force came forward to take the blame.

two of the M-16 rifles used in the attack were found in a PIRA arms dump in Cullyhanna, South Armagh, in 1990, collectively they had been used in 17 killings between 1974 and 1990.

its quite possible that other events took a broadly similar course, and therefore that the story told by the op doesn't relate specifically to Kingsmill, but sadly that is one of the rather more sordid realities of 'the troubles' - something so appalling could indeed have half a dozen 'peers'.

That'e exactly how I remember it.

BetsyGray

Terrible times. I remember that story now that you recount it. I just don't understand how anybody could be so cold blooded.

McArmalite

brianthebard wrote: »

Wtf what was wrong with the ah thread?Are you trolling op?

Agreed.

Lizzykins wrote: »

I think that was a massacre of protestant workmen on their way to or from work. Sometime in the 1970s. There was one Catholic amongst them and they tried to hide him as they thought it was UDA/UVF gunmen who had stopped them. Unfortunately it was the IRA and they shot all the protestant guys-10 of them as far as I remember. The catholic guy survived. Desperate times.

Yes indeed, it was a particularily vicious time in the north, some of the darkest days ever. It sounds like the Kingsmill massacre on January 5, 1976 when undoubtably the South Armagh IRA stooped down to the level of the loyalists/british forces in the spiralling secterian slaughter at the time, using the cover name of the South Armagh Republican Action Force just like the RUC using the Special Patrol Group or the SAS/brit dirty tricks dept. using the title 14th Intelligence to try and deflect blame. Some may say that the Kingsmill massacre was just a gut reaction by the local IRA to the random murders of nationalists perpetrated by the loyalists/british forces, but I for one do not think that their can be any excuse for this gross indiscrimate murder.

The Kingsmill massacre was in reaction to the murder of six Catholics in South Armagh the previous day January 4, 1976 by the loyalists and RUC personnell. Three of the dead were brothers from the Reavey family and the other three were from the O'Dowd family. The RUC personnell invovled was Special Patrol Group members Billy McCaughey* and John Weir.

For those who may doubt the allegations of RUC invovlement, the Barron Enquiry into the Dublin and Monaghan bombings of 1974, found a chain of ballistic history linking weapons and killings, to which McCaughey admitted involvement. These "included, in 1975, three murders at Donnelly's bar in Silverbridge, the murders of two men at a fake UDR checkpoint, the murder of IRA man John Francis Green in the Republic, the murders of members of the Miami showband and the murder of Dorothy Trainor in Portadown. In 1976, they included the murders of three members of the Reavey family, and the attack on the Rock Bar in Tassagh."


* ( McCaughey was also a former bodyguard to Ulster Unionist MP John Taylor, and also a member of the Ulster Protestant Volunteers, a paramilitary group founded by Ian Paisley which speaks for itself as yet another example of the close relationship between the loyalist terrorists, the RUC and the 'respectable' political wing of unionism )

Fratton Fred

McArmalite wrote: »

but I for one do not think that their can be any excuse for this gross indiscrimate murder.

you just tried giving one.

dresden8

Fratton Fred wrote: »

you just tried giving one.

That's more historical context really.

Fratton Fred

dresden8 wrote: »

That's more historical context really.

True, but I'm not sure there is much of a difference. I've no doubt the butchers that murdered the Reaveys and O'Dowds will use historical context in explaining why that happened.

its all hate filled sectarian murder at the end of the day.

McArmalite

dresden8 wrote: »

That's more historical context really.

Exactly.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

True, but I'm not sure there is much of a difference. I've no doubt the butchers that murdered the Reaveys and O'Dowds will use historical context in explaining why that happened.

its all hate filled sectarian murder at the end of the day.

The murders of the Reavey and O'Dowd family memebers which preceded the Kingsmill massacre 24 hours before hand and obviously is a part of the context in any discussion regarding Kingsmill.

The historical context the loyalists would have in mind is that they were just doing their bit to maintain their britishness by terrorising the taigs by butchering a few of them just like their ancestors did in and out of a british uniform in the 'good old days'.

Fratton Fred

McArmalite wrote: »

The murders of the Reavey and O'Dowd family memebers which preceded the Kingsmill massacre 24 hours before hand and obviously is a part of the context in any discussion regarding Kingsmill.

The historical context the loyalists would have in mind is that they were just doing their bit to maintain their britishness by terrorising the taigs by butchering a few of them just like their ancestors did in and out of a british uniform in the 'good old days'.

Maybe the Loyalists would use the Tullyvallen Massacre as their justification. But I'm sure the guys who carried that out managed to justify it to themselves somehow.

It just goes on and on mate, Like I said, its hate filled murder at the end of the day.

ilkhanid

"That's more historical context really.". Yes, just as the Shankill bombing provided the historical context for the murders at Kennedy way and Greysteel.
Also...I notice Sinn Fein are always demanding that the truth about loyalist killings and their collusion with the RUC be revealed. I wonder do they have the same eagerness for the truth about Kingsmills to be exposed?

gurramok

ilkhanid wrote: »

Also...I notice Sinn Fein are always demanding that the truth about loyalist killings and their collusion with the RUC be revealed. I wonder do they have the same eagerness for the truth about Kingsmills to be exposed?

The RUC were supposed to uphold the law and represent everyone in the community, not the IRA, hence the RUC should be made more accountable if they were to be respected as guardians of the law.

ilkhanid

"The RUC were supposed to uphold the law and represent everyone in the community, not the IRA, hence the RUC should be made more accountable if they were to be respected as guardians of the law."
And that is supposed to let the IRA off the hook? I personally, and everybody else that believed in the rule of law and that was opposed to violence have the right to hold the authorities to account. People who committed hundreds of pitiless murders have no moral high ground to stand on, and that they should demand that the authorities should by right satisfy demands for truth that they themselves deny are acting with the vilest hypocrisy. So when the RUC killed innocents it was worse than what the IRA did, was it? When the RUC/British colluded they betrayed the trust invested in them, but that that somehow moves the slaughter perpetrated by the IRA onto a higher plane..that is a repulsive notion. We have the right to judge the police/military but SinnFein/IRA never believed in the first place that the RUC represented the community. They saw them as enemy combatants in a war.They reserved the right to kill anybody on the British/loyalist side without any justification save their own spurious ones by which tens of thousands of people were regarded as legitimate targets, armed or unarmed,soldier or civilian . But when their own were killed unarmed they whined about the British breaking the rules. Rules which applied only to the British. This hypocrisy extends even to the terminology they employed. Anybody familiar with SinnFeinnspeak will notice that when UDA/UVF/British went out to murder they went as "British/Loyalist death Squads" but when the IRA went out to murder they went as "Active Service units" or "Volunteers".As I said we have the right to judge collusion and state murders. Sinn Fein don't. So to have the people that lied and feigned ignorance and refused comfort to the relatives of the disappeared for decades and still have nothing to say about atrocities like Kingsmills and Tullyvallen standing on their high horses wagging their fingers and admonishing others is a bit rich.

gurramok

Its not a murder competition on who murdered the worst you know. It's about justice and the security forces are supposed to uphold the law unlike the bandits.

You've just contradicted yourself here

ilkhanid wrote:

"So when the RUC killed innocents it was worse than what the IRA did, was it? When the RUC/British colluded they betrayed the trust invested in them, but that that somehow moves the slaughter perpetrated by the IRA onto a higher plane..that is a repulsive notion"

You've given the likes of IRA a platform a defence of a war. 194 unarmed non-paramilitary civilians including lots of children who were INNOCENT were murdered by the security forces and nothing was investigated about them. You do not seem to care??

See here for yourself http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/violence/sutton.htm

Contrast that to hundreds if not thousands from paramilitaries that have been jailed.

If those security forces perpetrators were brought to court, convicted and imprisoned, the RUC would of got a bit of respect from the Nationalist community instead of turning to paramilitaries for protection.
Collusion has been proved in North Belfast, look up the PSNI investigations.

There is no point bitching to me about IRA killings to me as you will not see me defend them, i bring up these unsolved murders as highlighted by moderate nationalists in the SDLP, the victims families and as well as the likes of SF.

ilkhanid

Of course I care. Where did I say otherwise? Where exactly do you claim I denied collusion? Its only justice that the truth of these events comes out.What I am saying is that it is the rankest hypocrisy for the IRA/SinnFein to be making these demands for truth as opposed to other parties like the families, the Irish government and the SDLP demanding the same thing. There is plenty of pressure on the British etc to come clean from all kinds of people,from all sides. But the relatives of those murdered by the IRA in murky episodes like Kingsmills are relatively forgotten and that's the way SinnFein likes it. To see Gerry and his crowd shamelessly parading their grievance while people they killed are quietely forgotten is stomach churning.

McArmalite

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Maybe the Loyalists would use the Tullyvallen Massacre as their justification. But I'm sure the guys who carried that out managed to justify it to themselves somehow.

It just goes on and on mate, Like I said, its hate filled murder at the end of the day.

No " It just goes on and on ". It goes on because britian partitioned the country in order to sustain a secterian society in the northeast of the country, not end it. The conditions of repression from 1922 to 1969 ensured that violence would some day erupt. When people tried to peacefully bring about reasonable change, the backlash of the british state forces of the RUC, B Specials and unionist mobs was to try and violently repress it, hence the troubles.

McArmalite

ilkhanid wrote: »

"That's more historical context really.". Yes, just as the Shankill bombing provided the historical context for the murders at Kennedy way and Greysteel.

Yes, but Kennedy Way and Greysteel couldn't have happened in the first place if the british had not armed the loyalists to begin with.

John Dallat who is an MLA for the SDLP in Derry, has said that a rifle used in the Greysteel incident was one of two weapons found by anglers after the Castlerock shootings but before the Greysteel attack took place. He alleges that a Special Branch officer moved the guns to protect the loyalists identity. The Police Service of Northern Ireland has refused to comment on the claims.

ilkhanid wrote: »

Also...I notice Sinn Fein are always demanding that the truth about loyalist killings and their collusion with the RUC be revealed. I wonder do they have the same eagerness for the truth about Kingsmills to be exposed?

Well I'm not a memebr of SF, but they have stated on several occassions as part of a South Africa style truth commission, they support the exposure of all actions carried out by Republican organisations the various IRA's, INLA, Catholic Reaction Force etc. Here are some of the guidelines that they have stated should be the remit for a Truth Commission -

· Full co-operation by all relevant parties is essential to the success of any commission;
· There should be no hierarchy of victims;
· All processes should be politically neutral;
· Any future panel should be international and independent;

More on this link http://www.sinnfein.ie/news/detail/35418

ilkhanid

I don' recall Sinn Fein saying "That's all right, we'll wait for the truth about collusion when the truth commission sits" . They are always demanding it right now.The tribunal on Bloody Sunday is deliberating as we speak.Why don't they come out with truth about some of their crimes right now?They point the finger at the British but trying to get the truth about anything from them is like to get blood from a stone. How long did we have to wait to begin to get the truth about 'The disappeared'. Sure even now they lie to our faces as if we we idiots "We never heard of DAD,We had nothing to do with the Northern Bank Robbery,nothing to do with the murders of Frank Kerr,Robert Mccartney, Paul Quinn,etc etc" And we're supposed to believe that as soon as this mooted commission sits they are going to do a volte-face and start telling the truth about everything. Somehow I don't think we should hold our breath.
And as for this piece of nonsense"...all actions carried out by Republican organisations the various IRA's, INLA, Catholic Reaction Force etc." Organizations? Like the Catholic reaction Force? Ah, yes...I understand,just like the Red Hand Commando was a separate organization from the UVF. Yes, of course it was.

McArmalite

ilkhanid wrote: »

I don' recall Sinn Fein saying "That's all right, we'll wait for the truth about collusion when the truth commission sits" . They are always demanding it right now.The tribunal on Bloody Sunday is deliberating as we speak.Why don't they come out with truth about some of their crimes right now?They point the finger at the British but trying to get the truth about anything from them is like to get blood from a stone. How long did we have to wait to begin to get the truth about 'The disappeared'. Sure even now they lie to our faces as if we we idiots "We never heard of DAD,We had nothing to do with the Northern Bank Robbery,nothing to do with the murders of Frank Kerr,Robert Mccartney, Paul Quinn,etc etc" And we're supposed to believe that as soon as this mooted commission sits they are going to do a volte-face and start telling the truth about everything. Somehow I don't think we should hold our breath.
And as for this piece of nonsense"...all actions carried out by Republican organisations the various IRA's, INLA, Catholic Reaction Force etc." Organizations? Like the Catholic reaction Force? Ah, yes...I understand,just like the Red Hand Commando was a separate organization from the UVF. Yes, of course it was.

Rant, rant, rant :pac: rant, rant, rant :pac: rant, rant, rant :pac: ......ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Fratton Fred

McArmalite wrote: »

Rant, rant, rant :pac: rant, rant, rant :pac: rant, rant, rant :pac: ......ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Hello Mr Pot, let me introduce you to Mr Kettle;)

IrishToffees

The dog in the street knows after 800 years of suffering and been treated as 2nd class citizens was inevitably going to lead to an uprising and most definitely the reunification of our Island! We took the almighty British empire on, and brought her to her knees!. When she had plans of world domination we stood up to the fight. Role on our (IRISH) Islands reunification!

Judgement Day

IrishToffees wrote: »

The dog in the street knows after 800 years of suffering and been treated as 2nd class citizens was inevitably going to lead to an uprising and most definitely the reunification of our Island! We took the almighty British empire on, and brought her to her knees!. When she had plans of world domination we stood up to the fight. Role on our (IRISH) Islands reunification!

Dream on if you think there's going to be a united Ireland. Incidentally, the only time that the island of Ireland has ever been a united entity was under British rule.

IrishToffees

ye boys thought ye could take over the world and your next door neighbours bet ye with stick and stones! Creditability.....Blair been led around by Bush on a lead. JOKE! Joke Nation..we have figured ye out a long long time ago!

Denerick

It sounds very similar to a 1922 killing by Dan Hogan and the Monaghan IRA. A group of B Specials were travelling across the border to a football match. At Clones Hogan and the lads dragged them out of the train and shot them in the street. This was a 'retaliation' to a group of IRA men being detained in Derry I think. More like cold blooded murder to me!

Denerick

IrishToffees wrote: »

The dog in the street knows after 800 years of suffering and been treated as 2nd class citizens was inevitably going to lead to an uprising and most definitely the reunification of our Island! We took the almighty British empire on, and brought her to her knees!. When she had plans of world domination we stood up to the fight. Role on our (IRISH) Islands reunification!

Why is it that extremists and dreamers are always so bloody inarticulate?