JC Decaux signs start appearing - Shocking.

spockety

This is already over on Motors, but I'm sure a lot of you don't read that forum regularly.

It's pretty flabbergasting, and everyone with an interest in commuting and road safety in general should see what we're up against from our own authorities.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055329731

AlekSmart

Incredible stuff.This just HAS to be stopped in it`s tracks immediately before the City Councils actions are DIRECTLY responsible for serious injury or death.

Surely as City Manager,Mr Tierney is required to exercise some form of professional overview over his councils decisions ?

Let there be NO doubt but that in the event of any such serious accident in the vicinity of these Advert Frames then the City Manager PERSONALLY will have to account for his PERSONAL decision to ignore and,it would appear,subvert the planning and approval process which is there to PREVENT scenario`s such as this occurring.

The actions of Dublin City Council under his stewardship has allowed this scheme to proceed in the face of serious concerns from within and without the council chamber.

Whilst I am prepared to live with that fact I most certainly am not prepared to accept what has materialized whereby a Statutory Body blatently ignores the rules of Commonsense and places it`s citizens at hugely increased risk of death or injury !

markf909

Surely the Guards can be notified of this?

If they can be responsible to the placing of bus poles then they ought to be able to do something about this calamity.

paulm17781

Out of curiosity, why are these even here? Is it for the council to get some extra revenue? They're awful looking things, I've seen 2 so far and they do an excellent job of being in the way.

L1011

paulm17781 wrote: »

Out of curiosity, why are these even here? Is it for the council to get some extra revenue? They're awful looking things, I've seen 2 so far and they do an excellent job of being in the way.

Its for the council to get free BIKES...

Hotblack Desiato

AlekSmart wrote: »

Incredible stuff.This just HAS to be stopped in it`s tracks immediately before the City Councils actions are DIRECTLY responsible for serious injury or death.

Arguably the city council's O'Connell Street project has already caused needless deaths. Having no differentiation between road and pavement is madness. Nothing happened as a result of that tragedy so...

Surely as City Manager,Mr Tierney is required to exercise some form of professional overview over his councils decisions ?

They just do not care about road safety. Cyclists think that DCC just doesn't care about them, actually they don't show any evidence of caring about anyone. E.g. ped crossing buzzers switched off, ped crossing countdowns installed but not switched on, all sorts of hazards affecting motorists from bad signage to potholes to failure to ensure contractors leave the road in a fit state after opening it.

Let there be NO doubt but that in the event of any such serious accident in the vicinity of these Advert Frames then the City Manager PERSONALLY will have to account for his PERSONAL decision to ignore and,it would appear,subvert the planning and approval process which is there to PREVENT scenario`s such as this occurring.

I wish I could share your lack of cynicism, but I can't, he and DCC do not have to account for anything to anyone and they know it.

The actions of Dublin City Council under his stewardship has allowed this scheme to proceed in the face of serious concerns from within and without the council chamber.

It is an utter disgrace. The people of Dublin have been sold out by DCC.

Stark

MYOB wrote: »

Its for the council to get free BIKES...

Nice. A bicycle should come in handy for colliding with pedestrians stepping out from behind billboards.

I don't think the bikes are even free tbh. I think you have to pay a deposit and rental fee for them.

OTK

MYOB wrote: »

Its for the council to get free BIKES...

The bikes are not free. JC Decaux have agreed to supply a bike rental service in Dublin in exchange for the right to display millions of euro worth of advertising on these dangerous signs for a number of years. There are only a small number of bikes involved. The terms of the agreement are secret due to 'commercial sensitivities'. Both JC Decaux and Dublin city council have long histories of corrupt activities.

http://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited/feeds/afx/2008/05/28/afx5055127.html
http://www.rte.ie/news/2003/1119/redmond.html

etc etc

IanCurtis

I saw one of these in Rathmines the other day and couldn't work out what it was for - now I know.

It is a disgrace to say the least. As someone pointed out, all they do is get in the way.

It's only a matter of time before someone takes a sledgehammer to them.

Bards

just sent the AA a mail making them aware of the thread. maybe we might see Conor Faughnan making a statement

MadsL

Right folks - I'm on the warpath now. I need your help. That's YOU, not someone else - "Ask not what your city can do for you......" [I suggest posting a thanks to say you have done your part - oh and spread the word]

Below are the mobile numbers of the Inner City councillors who have bullied by dublin city management into accepting this deal with JC Decaux. If you feel as I do that this should be removed then call or text them: (send an email to your friends pointing them to this thread)

Don't wait for 'someone else' to do this, and don't rely on 'the media' - It's your city, and these are your councillers. Be polite - but insist on action NOW! (tonights full council meeting) before someone gets hurt. Tell them you will be watching tonight's council meeting on the web.
http://www.dublincity.public-i.tv/site/#webcast

Inner City Councillors:
Cllr Christy Burke 086 8126347
Cllr Aodhan O'Riordan 086 8190336
Cllr Mick Raffety 087 2351547
Cllr Tom Stafford 086 3036962
(I have left off Deputy Lord Mayor Emer Costello who has been very vocal on these)


Details of consistant failure to address this safety issue;
Dublin City Council at various fora have been repeatly warned of this danger.

John Henry of the Dublin Transportation Office warned Dublin City Council on 7th March 2007 (at the time planning applications were made) that this type of structure "constituted a traffic hazard" I have attached his letter to the Planning Office outlining the DTO stance on this type of structure and the dangers both to pedestrian safety and the risks of driver distraction.
http://www.dublincity.ie/AnitePublicDocs/00066031.pdf

On 9 th, 10th and 11th October, 2007 at the An Bord Pleanala Oral Appeal Hearing of the the grant of planning permission of 24 advertising structures again the submission of the Dublin Transportation Office highlighed their concern on basis of traffic hazard.

In relation to one case of the 24 that were brought before the board, that of a sign outside BDO Simpson Xavier on Mercer Street similarly sited at the kerb edge, Mr. Eoin Madden, Senior Engineer, Traffic & Roads, conceded the appeal;

"With regard to implications for the safety of pedestrians, Mr. Madden for the planning authority stated that the proposed sign would not pass a road safety audit and accepted the case made in the appeal at the oral hearing as endangerment to pedestrian safety in that the sign would block pedestrian views towards oncoming traffic exiting the two public carparks."
http://www.pleanala.ie/documents/reports/223/R223148.pdf

The Inspectors Report following the hearing re-enforced these public safety concerns:

"In spite of the cases made in the oral hearing submissions and the reference to the prevalence of similar signage in other cities, I am not convinced that adverse risk of distraction to motorists or other road and footpath users leading to endangerment of public safety can be eliminated."
http://www.pleanala.ie/documents/reports/223/R223101.pdf

Following the findings the concerns of the An Bord Pleanala Inspector were voiced in Council in March 2008, a report was requested on the Health and Safety aspects by Cllr Emer Costello in relation to these findings. To date that report has not been published.

Yet the planning authority have decided to take a 'suck it and see' approach to road safety, there is a perfectly adequate methodoly to conduct a Stage 2 road safety audit prior to construction, however in this case have opted to only insist on a Stage 3 road safety audit (in other words construction followed by audit - in the meantime while we are waiting for this audit, lives are endangered)

MadsL

A repost .... just for reference...
Now this is just taking the p1ss.... Dorset St/Synott Place

Planning Montage - note the scale is wrong on the structure (compare height with traffic lights)


As erected;


Establishing shot - Spot the child in a buggy anyone (how about at 50kph?)


Stepping out...


Erected in the wrong place.


You have to be kidding me......

5. The developer shall comply fully with the following requirements of the Roads & Traffic Planning Division; a) The proposed structure shall not impede any road signs, traffic lights, pedestrian crossings, vision along kerb edge lines or any other road infrastructure. This may require a slight adjustment in the proposed location as submitted.

Slight adjustment I would recommend here would be about 3 metres to the left....into a skip!


From the pedestrian crossing...taken whilst standing on the tactile ped crossing surface.....



Completely obscures cycle lane...

Motorists viewpoint



Spot the ped walking out?


This goes beyond the argument of advertising on our footpaths. This is criminal negligence on the part of DCC, JCDecaux and the contractor. Someone will die at this crossing unless this is removed NOW!

These structures have been slammed by the Dublin Transportation Office, described as a road safety hazard by An Bord Pleanala, a report on their safety has been requested by a city counciller to which no response has been given. If I were a lawyer representing a injury or death compensation claim at this point. I would also be citing the Corporate Manslaughter Bill 2007

Grossly negligent management causing death:
A high managerial agent may be guilty of grossly negligent management causing death if he knew or ought to have known of a substantial risk of death or personal harm and failed to take reasonable efforts to eliminate that risk. Penalties for grossly negligent management include:

A fine; and/or
Up to 12 year's imprisonment; and or
A Disqualification Order whereby the managerial agent may be disqualified from acting in a management capacity by the court for a period not exceeding 15 years.

Breach of the order gives rise to a fine of €3,000,000 and/or 2 years imprisonment and/or further disqualification for 10 years.

L1011

OTK wrote: »

The bikes are not free. JC Decaux have agreed to supply a bike rental service in Dublin in exchange for the right to display millions of euro worth of advertising on these dangerous signs for a number of years. There are only a small number of bikes involved. The terms of the agreement are secret due to 'commercial sensitivities'. Both JC Decaux and Dublin city council have long histories of corrupt activities.

http://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited/feeds/afx/2008/05/28/afx5055127.html
http://www.rte.ie/news/2003/1119/redmond.html

etc etc

Free in the 'not costing the council cash' sense of free. Of course they'll find a way to screw over Joe Public in the process...

Metrobest

I don´t think the signs are really that bad... come on.. think of the benefits. FREE BIKES!!!!!!

In cases where the signs may impair the view of traffic lights, overhead traffic lights should be erected, which are easier for drivers to see.

A few minor adjustments might be needed here and there, but the advertisements are pretty small anyway so they don´t get in the way. It´s the same situation in Paris and Brussels and nobody´s complaining there. No doubt if Dublin city council decided to pay for the system out of public money there would be an outcry, so the trade off for these subtle ads is a free bike system for the city like Bicing here in Barcelona or Velib in Paris. Cyclists numbers will multiply and the city council will have the mandate to increase facilities for cyclists in the city.

MadsL

Just heard an emergency motion will be put to the Council tonight calling for a complete halt to all work until a Health and Safety review has been conducted.

Tune in ... they usually have to be taken before 9pm

Meeting just started

http://www.dublincity.public-i.tv/site/#webcast

Well done everyone!

Rawr

Clear Channel run a very similar system here in Oslo, Norway. You got citybikes hooked up to ad-panels all over the place. You have to pay the equivalent of a tenner for a pass that lasts the entire year.

Link: http://www.visitoslo.com/?cat=58934&tl=%3Fsp=GB%26dv_variables=visitoslo/inc/variables%26icp=visitoslo/produkt%26PR=23_7057_3

It is really handy.

But the bike racks here are usually placed away from the road in convenient locations (such as bus/tram stops). What I see in these images is just plain mad. That is obviously placed to advertise to passing motorists.

Has safety really been sacrificed to make a quick buck?

MadsL

I don´t think the signs are really that bad... come on.. think of the benefits. FREE BIKES!!!!!!

Don't be fooled. The bikes will not be free. In Paris (similar scheme)

"An annual pass for the pick-up and drop service costs €29 ($40) and a one-day pass is €1. The first half-hour of each journey is free; the users are then charged on a rising scale to encourage short bike usage. Accounts can be topped up by credit card at each bike station or on the website."

1. Not free - this is lost revenue to DCC of approx €100m-€150m over 15 years
2. Credit Card needed (In Paris it has to be French one - so no use to tourists)
3. It has been indicated that the deposit for the bikes with be €120 payable by credit card.
4. Paris got 13 bikes per advert, dublin was promised 4 per advert.
5. Originally removal of 100 48sheet billboards (often illegal anyway) 4 toilets, a wayfinding scheme and heritage trail were included in the deal - this has been 'trimmed' somehow to 50 48-sheets removed, no toilets, no wayfinding scheme.

Dublin City could have easily extended the free eco cabs scheme at much lower cost to our safety and the lost revenue to the city, or have implemented the bike scheme. 450 bikes is a joke - far too few.

MadsL

The City Council just passed a emergency motion (unanimously and agreed as without debate) that;

All work be halted on the JC Decaux scheme until a complete health and safety report has been issued (words to that effect)

One of the councillors mentioned the emails and texts that he received - so thank you all that made the effort.

:D:D

Rawr

MadsL wrote: »

The City Council just passed a emergency motion (unanimously and agreed as without debate) that;

All work be halted on the JC Decaux scheme until a complete health and safety report has been issued (words to that effect)

One of the councillors mentioned the emails and texts that he received - so thank you all that made the effort.

:D:D

Fair play to you MadsL, and everyone who sent a message in!
It's mad to think how effective Boards can sometimes be!!:D

KC61

MadsL wrote: »

The City Council just passed a emergency motion (unanimously and agreed as without debate) that;

All work be halted on the JC Decaux scheme until a complete health and safety report has been issued (words to that effect)

One of the councillors mentioned the emails and texts that he received - so thank you all that made the effort.

:D:D

Indeed, well done.

However, the City Manager pointed out that DCC is in a contractual situation with JC Deceaux which overrides any motion passed by the councillors.

He did, however, agree to examine the structure at this particular location as a matter of urgency.

MadsL

However, the City Manager pointed out that DCC is in a contractual situation with JC Deceaux which overrides any motion passed by the councillors.

This is the contract he won't allow the councillors to see......

smoke and mirrors?

jank

Credit Card needed (In Paris it has to be French one - so no use to tourists)

I was in Paris a few months ago and i got a bike via my irish credit card.

niall2j

Well done to all those who took action on this - the disregard for public safety by all involved in this scheme is truly shocking.

For what it's worth you have my full support!

monument

MadsL wrote: »

2. Credit Card needed (In Paris it has to be French one - so no use to tourists)

I used an Irish MBNA credit card on the Velib system just about two weeks ago.

MadsL wrote: »

4. Paris got 13 bikes per advert, dublin was promised 4 per advert.

...

450 bikes is a joke - far too few.

They're some of the main points on the billboards-for-bicycle dead and I think a new thread might be in order to talk about it more.

January

And yet, the structure is still there.

Run_to_da_hills

This whole bike thing is a scam to get more and more people into an in debt cashless society. Credit card dept alone is a very serious problem in Ireland and we could with less of it and NOT more of it. The vulnerable will be tempted to apply for Visa cards so that they can avail of these.

The commuters that will be using them will be the less well off that do not have their own scooters or bicycles or that cannot afford taxis. I have seen these same bicycles scattered about London Suburbs and many of them are compatible with certain issues of the London’s Oyster card.

spockety

As of this evening there is plastic fencing erected around the one on Dorset Street, or just beside it...

Rawr

Here in Oslo you can buy a special bike smart-card from assigned agents or their website.

It's a cheap subscription for the entire year, and only other major catch is that you are cycling a crazy bike with an advert on it's wheel (very like the image above.

http://www.visitoslo.com/?cat=58934&tl=%3Fsp=NO%26dv_variables=visitOSLO/inc/variables%26icp=visitOSLO/produkt%26PR=23_7057_3

I stand by this system (at least the one here), it works very well here and is incredibly handy. It's almost as fast as taking the bus / tram around town!

But there are several things that can seriously screw it up for Dublin. Some thoughts:
-It can be real dangerous to cycle in Dublin town
-The cyclelanes / tracks generally suck.
-Many know this and don't cycle in Dublin
-Tourists don't know this and may suffer seriously as a result
-Scumbags (both drunken and otherwise) will do their anti-socially best to destroy any city-bikes they encounter, dramatically shortening their operational life-expectancy.

Negitive stuff alas, but worth a head-scratching either way.

Run_to_da_hills

Rawr wrote: »

But there are several things that can seriously screw it up for Dublin. Some thoughts:
Negitive stuff alas, but worth a head-scratching either way.

You forgot to mention the Luas tram tracks :eek:

Hotblack Desiato

A bike-lending scheme was tried in Dublin before, they all ended up in the canal within a week.

Forget the bikes, they're just a smokescreen to get the highly intrusive and highly lucrative advertising in place. FFS it is actually aimed at motorists. Even if not obscuring traffic lights AND pedestrians AND junctions like the one pictured in this thread, they will still distract drivers.

Zoney

It is absurd that it was let get as far as even the concept drawing. There shouldn't have even been the remotest possiblity of this being a runner for the company, if we had sensible authorities.