Dunkettle idiocy (Rail / Park & Ride Thread)

Chris_533976

I have to say 'I told you so' but I predicted this the day I found there was a P&R to be built at Dunkettle.

Land row puts key rail station in jeopardy

By Sean O’Riordan
A ROW over who owns a plot of land has put the future of a new multi-million euro railway station in jeopardy.


Iarnród Éireann’s plans to build a new station and 360-space park and ride facility on the outskirts of Cork have run into trouble, after the National Roads Authority (NRA) claimed it owned the land and needed it for one of its own projects.

The station at Dunkettle is one of three to be created along the Cork-Midleton railway line, which is due to be reopened early next year.
Cork County Council has approved planning permission for the station.

But the NRA has objected to An Bord Pleanála and is adamant that it has to use the land for a key upgrade of the Dunkettle interchange, which is the busiest junction in Cork.

“The NRA supports improvements in public transport, but we are disappointed that we weren’t formally consulted on the plans by Iarnród Éireann,” said the NRA spokesman.

He said the land was earmarked for large NRA improvements at the Dunkettle interchange, which will have to be undertaken in the future to prevent it from becoming gridlocked.

In addition, the NRA claimed there were several other more suitable locations Iarnród Éireann could use for the facility.
However, the war of words intensified last night after the rail company claimed that the NRA didn’t actually own the disputed land.

“The fact of the matter is it is not their land. It is registered to Cork County Council for transport needs and the park and ride facility comes within this ambit,” said an Iarnród Éireann spokesman. He claimed the rail company did consult the NRA before applying for planning permission.

However, the spokesman admitted that the appeal to An Bord Pleanála had “the potential to impact” on the railway company’s plans at Dunkettle. “We will try and work constructively with Cork County Council and the NRA to see if we can resolve this issue,” he said.

P&R can be moved, Dunkettle upgrade is more important than a station. There are plenty of other places nearby they can put it.

Amtmann

Hmm. What upgrades do the NRA propose for Dunkettle?

Zoney

I'm in favour of more emphasis on public transport over roads, but there is no avoiding the need to upgrade Dunkettle. It's crazy for them to build P+R here, especially considering that is not just public transport - it is for people to pour in there with their private cars, clogging up approach roads into Dunkettle perhaps even more!

deRanged

at least it won't hold up the new line.
they can go ahead with the station whenever they get the land sorted.

sure, it'll add some traffic to Dunkettle, but the idea is that that the traffic would be heading to town anyway, whereas now it'll stop in Dunkettle. that's got to be better than before.

Chris_533976

Fraid not. As it stands that traffic would head across the current DC into town. Thats one of the few freeflow movements at Dunkettle. With the P&R it would have to navigate the roundabout, adding to the current problems.

@Furet - No details have been released by the NRA etc yet. I have no idea whats planned

deRanged

but isn't the idea for traffic from glanmire and the east, to use the park and ride instead of continuing into town?
am I right in thinking that the P&R is to go at the field by the Ibis?
If so this traffic could access the P&R from the back roads from glanmire and come off the N25 at the Little Island overpass, drive past the Island train station (this is the bit I never understood) and head up to the P&R?
traffic coming down from watergrasshill direction can take the first left and use the slip road to Bury's Bridge to access it also.
I may well have it wrong of course.

Victor

Parallel thread: http://www.railusers.ie/forum/showthread.php?t=4396

Bogger77

Chris_533976 wrote: »

I have to say 'I told you so' but I predicted this the day I found there was a P&R to be built at Dunkettle.



P&R can be moved, Dunkettle upgrade is more important than a station. There are plenty of other places nearby they can put it.

Where between Cobh Cross and Dunkettle would you suggest? N25 Carrigohill to LittleIsland is pretty much build on reclaimed land or causeway. Unless the P+R is build at the IDA park in Carrigtohill, there's no where close to an existing N25 junction, and close to the Rail Line, with lots of solid firm land to build on. From Glounthane past little Littleisland and onto the Ibis on the old road, there's steep hills on one side, and marsh land on the other, apart from the Container transfer area.
If not Dunkettle or Carrigtohill, then it'd have to be almost in Middleton, Whiterock/Ballyrichard area.

Chris_533976

Where theres that big moving gantry crane thing (not sure of the name), its an Irish rail storage site or something. Its half empty and has been torn apart recently. Take half of that and put the P&R there. A much more logical place with far more room for a station than cramming it all into Dunkettle. The ground mightnt be the hardest in the world but that hasnt stopped them building an industrial estate on it on the other side of the DC.

corktina

that was where id assumed it would be ....

deRanged

the moving gantry thing is in the old freight yard.


it was looking fairly derelict but now a transport company (Nolan transport) has taken over a fair chunk of it. much of the rest is used for storage of kegs, containers and some rotting old school busses. I had always thought it would be the ideal place for the P&R - plenty of infrastructure already in place and far enough not to interfere with the tunnel etc.
it is swampy ground (as is all the ground in the area) but surely if it can take containers and haulage it can be a car park.

The second option is the disused section of ground near the defunct IBIS hotel.


You can still see where the old N25 used to go years ago.


The council have a planning notice up about improving the back road over from glanmire bridge (click to download) to Bury's bridge.

Chris_533976

To me, the fact that they're considering anything OTHER than that freight yard is absolutely ridiculous

Victor

The freight yard is known as North Esk. The problem with that site is it is quite far east and doesn't serve Glanmire / Riverstown very well - people would need to double back.

deRanged

That whole area is called North Esk - including the industrial area across the slip road off the N25.
The reason I included the planning notice is because that road - Glanmire Bridge to Bury's Bridge (the rail bridge the slip road off the N25 crosses) comes across from Glanmire/Riverstown direction. This would allow the population of Glanmire/Riverstown to access the park and ride without needing to hit the slow traffic of the main roundabouts. Theoretically it'd be quite handy for those residents. Lights at the bridge would probably become necesssary though.
It's also the road that the 900 or whatever houses they want to build around Dunkettle house will use for access, and has a slip road onto the N8 southbound a hundred yards or so from the tunnel roundabout.

Victor

So this is a copy of the variation that included the park and ride in the development plan. Its not online on the Cork County Council website for some reason - maybe this is why the NRA missed it. The variation modifies both the overall county development plan and the local development plan, hence it is in two parts.

There are two issues:
1. It is really difficult to make the interchange freeflow without the site suggested for the park and ride.
2. The access to the site suggested for the park and ride is problematic:
a. It can't come off the existing roundabout as it is already overly busy.
b. If the interchange is upgraded the park and ride still won't have access as any potential access will be designed out to make the interchange freeflow.

Neither of these is fatal, as you could access the park and ride from the local roads, but it does make the P&R car park rather complicated with two slip roads running through it and another two elevated slip roads over it.

I also attach a drawing with a suggested layout for the interchange upgrade. The design would probably need to be quite close to this if it is to be fully free-flowing. The main problem arises with the slope down to the tunnel, which prevents the layoutt from being mirrored. The P&R site is outlined in white.

http://localhostr.com/files/ce21aa/Dunkettle%20-%20Amendment%201.pdf
http://localhostr.com/files/8f97e6/Dunkettle%20-%20Enviromental%20Statement%20for%20Amendment%201.pdf
http://localhostr.com/files/a1eb76/Dunkettle%20-%20Variation%205.pdf
http://localhostr.com/files/dbab25/dunkettle4a.jpg

Dkettle

Victor wrote: »

The freight yard is known as North Esk. The problem with that site is it is quite far east and doesn't serve Glanmire / Riverstown very well - people would need to double back.

From the point of view of driving from Glanmire along Dunkettle Road to access the park and ride, it really is neutral whether it is in North Esk or right beside the Dunkettle Interchange. The access to the P&R will be from almost the exact same point on the existing road, and the choice will basically be between turning left or right, driving 200m in either direction to park the car. As a potential pedestrian user of this station there would be very little in it on foot either.

The "Interchange" site definitely gives better spacing between the Dunkettle and Little Island stops, but if its main function is P&R who does that really matter to?

Victor

The freight year site would be nearer the houses also.

Typewriter

Glanmire to get €6m upgrade for key road

CORK County Council is planning a significant road upgrade that will allow more than 1,200 homes to be built and provide a link to a new park-and-ride railway station.

Amtmann

green_jesus wrote: »

Glanmire to get €6m upgrade for key road

CORK County Council is planning a significant road upgrade that will allow more than 1,200 homes to be built and provide a link to a new park-and-ride railway station.

*sigh*

You've got to hand it to those "developers".

invincibleirish

What a joke, i have no doubt both the road and houses will be built, but will the P&R and train station? plus with any potential upgrade of Dunkettle Interchange in the works land will be at a premium around Dunkettle anyway, its time for a bit of JOINED UP THINKING at local level instead of developer led initiatives!

Dunkettle will be another Mount Oval if O Flynn gets his way.

Dkettle

O'Flynn appears to be letting this planning application die on the vine, there has not been an answer to by his company to the request from the council for further information nearly 9 months ago.

Interestingly when Cork Coco / RPS had a public evening for this road upgrade their spiel mentioned use of the road as a feeder bus route for Dunkettle station, but had no allowance for bus stops.

Unfortunately, from my selfish perspective, there is no sign of any action on Dunkettle Station, I think it would have massive benefits for Glanmire if there was a half decent feeder bus, but I would be very surprised if we see any movement on the station / P&R / Road / houses in the next 3 years or so.

If any of you are travelling from the North / East into Cork City though, Little Island station is situated 1 junction (2km) east of the Dunkettle Roundabout, just off the N25, has free parking, and is 7 minutes to Kent for €1.60. Beats circling around the city (very slowly) for parking any day.

So basically my point is there is Park and Ride for about 50 cars already in the place, it's just one of the area's best kept secrets.

BluntGuy

In response to thread title itself, I think the real idiocy of Dunkettle was how short-sighted its design was in the first place.

AugustusMaximus

BluntGuy wrote: »

In response to thread title itself, I think the real idiocy of Dunkettle was how short-sighted its design was in the first place.

Should have been a cloverleaf junction from the start.

The sad thing is that we haven't learned from our mistakes and are continuing to make non-freeflow junctions. The idiocy of it all is staggering.

BluntGuy

AugustusMaximus wrote: »

Should have been a cloverleaf junction from the start.

The sad thing is that we haven't learned from our mistakes and are continuing to make non-freeflow junctions. The idiocy of it all is staggering.

Indeed. And if you think Dunkettle's bad, look at the idiocy that's just around the corner...

M9/N25/N24
M18/M6/M17
M20/M22

And my personal favourite:

The M8/M22 junction

And don't get me started on the DOOR. There's so much scope for bad junction design there it almost makes me weep.

amacachi

BluntGuy wrote: »

And don't get me started on the DOOR. There's so much scope for bad junction design there it almost makes me weep.

If they ever get around to building it I shan't read anything about it, I don't like looking at things that I know will depress me :P

Victor

green_jesus wrote: »

Glanmire to get €6m upgrade for key road

CORK County Council is planning a significant road upgrade that will allow more than 1,200 homes to be built and provide a link to a new park-and-ride railway station.

Its interesting that they are suggesting that cyclists should go over the hill rather than down the river valley.

Typewriter

You can see the original Dunkettle train station appear @ 0:50 in this youtube video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=z4U5MWhTpnM

Typewriter

Dunkettle train station stopped in its tracks
By Sean O'Riordan

Saturday, December 05, 2009

IARNRÓD Éireann's plans to build a new commuter railway station on the Cork-Midleton line have been shunted into the sidings by An Bord Pleanála.

The semi-state company had applied for planning permission to build the station at Dunkettle but was involved in a row with the National Roads Authority (NRA) over land ownership.

Cork County Council had granted Iarnród Éireann permission for two platforms, a footbridge, a 367-space park and ride facility and ancillary works at the site. But the NRA appealed the decision.

The NRA said the land was in the registered ownership of Cork County Council, but argued it was originally purchased in the early 1990s by the Department of the Environment for national road-related purposes.

In its submission to the planning appeals board, the NRA said established procedures required the council to obtain prior approval from the National Roads Authority for any disposal of the land to Iarnród Éireann.

The NRA said it did not give permission and insisted there was every prospect that all, or at least part of the land concerned, would be required for the upgrade of the Dunkettle interchange.

The NRA argued the land - valued at €4 million - formed part of a current consultancy study for the junction upgrade. The NRA said the land should therefore be preserved for that purpose.

It was also suggested there was up to four other sites nearby which would be equally suitable for a railway station along with a park and ride facility.

Bord Pleanála refused Iarnród Éireann permission on the grounds it would be premature to build anything on the land until the NRA had finalised its future plans for the Dunkettle interchange.

Deputy Deirdre Clune (FG) said it was unfortunate the NRA, Iarnród Éireann and Cork Co Council could not have had better lines of communication earlier in the process to agree a site that was acceptable to all parties.

"Instead, we have a situation where taxpayers' money was wasted and we are left with a project that has to go back to the drawing board," Ms Clune said.

"The travelling public are the main losers here as they have been denied the opportunity to use a rail line operating at its most efficient."

This story appeared in the printed version of the Irish Examiner Saturday, December 05, 2009

Oh well back to the drawing board.

Zoney

Have to echo the TD's pinpointing of the main issue here, a lack of early communication. Much as the station should be a priority and should probably already be under construction, it would be pretty disasterous if Dunkettle Interchange can't be suitably upgraded (of course that should probably also be under construction).

As regards Dunkettle Interchange, even if it was enough to build it in its current form at the time (which some allowance may perhaps be made for) it should absolutely have been in an arrangement that had definitive plans to "finish" the junction later. I.e. there shouldn't all this time later be such deliberation over what land is to be used - as even if it was OK to build a limited junction to begin with, plans should have been made back then for freeflow.

This goes for the other junctions too (I do not necessarily think M17/M18/M6 will require freeflow in possibly even the medium term, but it should be built in an arrangement that allows easy upgrade later).

invincibleirish

Not an engineer but surely with a little foresight and knocking of heads together with the NRA, IR and the council, that an arrangement could be made to accomodate everyone's plans for the site?

BluntGuy

Nope, because one of the seeming requirements of semi-state bodies is to have absolutely no communication with other semi-state bodies.

This situation is utterly intolerable, and has left a sound plan (apart from location) in tatters, meaning relief for commuters will be delayed yet again for another few years.

IE, the NRA and Cork County Council are all to blame for this mess.