Borrowing to buy BOI Shares????????

drunkmonkey

Oafley Jones wrote: »

Tulip bulbs are a steal at the current prices, you should invest in them.

LOL ;)that was a great documentry, I think OP could do with having a look at it...

Supercell

Great post pocketdooz.
I was half thinking of jumping in myself but after thinking long and hard about why the BOI stock is in freefall i decided not to.
Your post confims pretty much what i was thinking - you'd want to be insane to invest in an Irish bank at the start of a recession.

pocketdooz

boomboombazza wrote: »

ah i'll just tell them it for something else. My salary is ok so they should give me 20k handy enough

God, why did I bother writing the above answer to this thread and wasting 10 minutes of my day ?

This is obviously a level judging by this response ^^^

PoleStar

I think the OPs position can be summed up nicely by the phrase "trying to catch a falling knife".

Anyhow I think the OP really needs to realise that when he buys the shares he will not have an asset, just a liability as the shares will most certainly fall after buying them.

And again as someone else said, how low can BOI go? Well it can go to ZERO................

uberwolf

Goggin was on Newstalk on Saturday. One of the parting comments read out was of a staff member who had just borrowed around the figure you're talking about to buy BOI shares.

My response was poor fool. Metaphorically now, literally soon.

drunkmonkey

BOI could go bust when the full extent of the propery bubble becomes clear...

All the other OP's are right, you'd be a loon to buy Irish Banking shares now, you could possibly lose money for the next 4 straight years in a row, In japan it took 5 years for the banks to come clean about there huge non performing loans.....12 years for the economy to recover..

Irish Property Prices rose 380pc since 1996, Switzerland rose by 5pc, there's a correction due and people with over inflated mortages could be in serious trouble....along with the banks who facilated the charade.....

Public Opinion will demand the Government bail out the people before the banks......and you can kiss your 20k goodbye......

Buy yourself a mix of food, water , energy and mineral stocks.... they will never go out of fashion.....

boomboombazza

boomboombazza wrote: »

your post is seriously condesending (sic), no need to talk to me like i'm a retard.

The fact that you are considering leveraged speculation would suggest you are one.

Clytus

OP....just look at history....following the Wall street crash it took 40 years for the DOW to fully recover!

Anyway...BOI have a huge exposure on its mortgage laon book in the UK to Buy to let loans.....and Citigroup have downgraded BOI to a "sell" rating.

Your NUTS!!!

Mind you...following 911 everyone said M.O Leary was off his pallet when he put in a huge order for planes....that he ended up getting at knockdown prices.....and how much is he worth now??

punchestown

justfortherecor wrote: »

It's a nonstarter anyways, as a poster above already said, no bank will loan you money to invest in shares.

Shares can be used as security in terms of securing a loan though. A lien is put on the shares until such time as the borrowings against them have been repaid with the lender at which point the lien is removed and the shares can be traded upon. Most stockbrokers facilitate this. Maybe see if your lender would be willing to loan on the strength of your current holdings?

punchestown

In relation to the above scheme (and I am neither for nor against it) has the op or any of the posters given credence to the payment of dividends on the stock?
I note from this time two years ago, there have been 4 dividend payments (€1.18 in total per share, not sure if thats before or after DIRT) Would it be reasonable to expect similiar dividend payments in the coming years or is the advice given above assuming BOI is heading tits up?

rugbyman

I am buying BoI shares on monday morning. I am investing my childrens savings of 6,000. Was a bit put out that i did not buy at 5.30 this am ,when they were 5.48 later but i now note they are around 5.1 this evening.

there have been lots of interesting replies, esp the long one, but quite a bit of over the top anti stuff. i think the op may have a good enough idea, esp bearing in mind there will be dividends. At no stage did he say they might go to 16.

While on here i want to air my fav whinge. If I ,or you, had gone to any broker or banker in the last ten years and asked their opinion on irish bank shares in which you wanted to put your grannies money, they would have come out with the usual rot. good, well managed company, sound fundamentals,healthy profits, attractive dividends etc. It is highly inlikely that any advisor would have put you off. it is very difficult to get straight talking advice in this country . All the bank/insurance/investors are in the one camp,know each other, and live close/ socialise. When have you read a bad forecast on any Irish company in any newspaper other than the Phoenix.

I bought 6,000 worth of shares in 1987. when one of then 2,500 shares bought at 1.00 Pounds went to 1.42 I was up a grand. Did I sell? No.
they are now 16.cents
The entire portfolio would not get 3,000 euro today.

Supercell

rugbyman wrote: »

I am buying BoI shares on monday morning. I am investing my childrens savings of 6,000. Was a bit put out that i did not buy at 5.30 this am ,when they were 5.48 later but i now note they are around 5.1 this evening.

there have been lots of interesting replies, esp the long one, but quite a bit of over the top anti stuff. i think the op may have a good enough idea, esp bearing in mind there will be dividends. At no stage did he say they might go to 16.

While on here i want to air my fav whinge. If I ,or you, had gone to any broker or banker in the last ten years and asked their opinion on irish bank shares in which you wanted to put your grannies money, they would have come out with the usual rot. good, well managed company, sound fundamentals,healthy profits, attractive dividends etc. It is highly inlikely that any advisor would have put you off. it is very difficult to get straight talking advice in this country . All the bank/insurance/investors are in the one camp,know each other, and live close/ socialise. When have you read a bad forecast on any Irish company in any newspaper other than the Phoenix.

I bought 6,000 worth of shares in 1987. when one of then 2,500 shares bought at 1.00 Pounds went to 1.42 I was up a grand. Did I sell? No.
they are now 16.cents
The entire portfolio would not get 3,000 euro today.

You sir, are delusional.

I hope your children remind you of that on years to come as they grow old enough to realise that you squandered their inheritance.

pocketdooz

rugbyman wrote: »

I am buying BoI shares on monday morning. I am investing my childrens savings of 6,000. Was a bit put out that i did not buy at 5.30 this am ,when they were 5.48 later but i now note they are around 5.1 this evening.

there have been lots of interesting replies, esp the long one, but quite a bit of over the top anti stuff. i think the op may have a good enough idea, esp bearing in mind there will be dividends. At no stage did he say they might go to 16.

While on here i want to air my fav whinge. If I ,or you, had gone to any broker or banker in the last ten years and asked their opinion on irish bank shares in which you wanted to put your grannies money, they would have come out with the usual rot. good, well managed company, sound fundamentals,healthy profits, attractive dividends etc. It is highly inlikely that any advisor would have put you off. it is very difficult to get straight talking advice in this country . All the bank/insurance/investors are in the one camp,know each other, and live close/ socialise. When have you read a bad forecast on any Irish company in any newspaper other than the Phoenix.

I bought 6,000 worth of shares in 1987. when one of then 2,500 shares bought at 1.00 Pounds went to 1.42 I was up a grand. Did I sell? No.
they are now 16.cents
The entire portfolio would not get 3,000 euro today.

Good man - put your childrens savings into BOI - that's a great idea !!!

Judging by your last buy you seem to have the market sewn up.

Please let the rest of us in on it when your figure the bond marker out too ! LOL

Hopefully your kids have no plans of going to college . . .

Mate, in all seriousness - put your kids savings in a 8% account with Anglo or Halifax. Don't put them into BOI shares. You clearly have no idea what you are doing.

stevedublin

what company did you buy for a pound a share in 1987 and are now only worth 16 cent?

irish_bob

stevedublin wrote: »

what company did you buy for a pound a share in 1987 and are now only worth 16 cent?

id say either one that made leg warmers or those old mobile phones that weighed slightly less than a concrete block
you know the ones micheal dougleas used in wall street

rugbyman

to supercell somehow during the day " fool" became delusional.

My dad told me many years ago that to call someone a fool implied that one was not a fool oneself, of which one cannot be certain.

Pocketdooz, you have a way with words and I like your logic but I think AIB and BOI are good long term buys. perhaps not worth borrowing for ,but maybe so.


Steven D The shares were Glencar, then 1 pound, went up to 1,42 down to 16 at one time. now 40/50/60 not too sure. the others were Waterford Glass, perhaps at 1.32, though that seems unbelievable, must google it.

Regards.

Time Magazine

rugbyman wrote: »

Pocketdooz, you have a way with words and I like your logic but I think AIB and BOI are good long term buys. perhaps not worth borrowing for ,but maybe so.

Honest question: If AIB and BOI are such good buys, why isn't their price higher right now?

pocketdooz

rugbyman wrote: »

to supercell somehow during the day " fool" became delusional.

My dad told me many years ago that to call someone a fool implied that one was not a fool oneself, of which one cannot be certain.

Pocketdooz, you have a way with words and I like your logic but I think AIB and BOI are good long term buys. perhaps not worth borrowing for ,but maybe so.


Steven D The shares were Glencar, then 1 pound, went up to 1,42 down to 16 at one time. now 40/50/60 not too sure. the others were Waterford Glass, perhaps at 1.32, though that seems unbelievable, must google it.

Regards.

First off, apologies about the tone of my previous post. I shouldn't have been sarcastic. I just feel that from your post you are way out of your depth. You talk about not buying at 5.30, then they were 5.48 etc.etc. This either reads like someone who is joking or is not familiar with the topic.

Secondly, thanks for the compliment. If you read my original post I say . . . quote

"Bank of Ireland are a good LONG TERM investment at their present valuation. Long term is ambiguous though as it could be 2/3/5/10 years before we see a full turn around.

That's why it's called speculation. NEVER BORROW TO SPECULATE, YOU WILL GO BROKE "

My point was that they are a good LT investment BUT . . . this is a tricky time to be investing and it is not a good idea to put something as important as your kids savings (of €6000) into volatile shares like BOI. If you get Dublin airport bonds they pay over 6.5% guaranteed, Anglo has a savings account that pays 8% and AIB currently have a childrens savings account that pays 10% (there are obviously T&Cs with these) -

*** At these rates your kids savings will grow from €6000 to €25000 in 15 years (I dont know what age your kids are) . . . this is a secure investment. For BOI shares to show this level of return they would have to grow to €23 a share (never going to happen mate ! - not even at the height of the Celtic Tiger / Property boom did they get to these dizzying valuations.) ***

Options like these are a better idea in the current market in my opinion. Again, this is my opinion and you're perfectly entitles to tell me to go and ***** if you want. Either way, I hope it works out for your savings. All the best.

boomboombazza

pocketdooz wrote: »

My point was that they are a good LT investment BUT . . . this is a tricky time to be investing and it is not a good idea to put something as important as your kids savings (of €6000) into volatile shares like BOI. If you get Dublin airport bonds they pay over 6.5% guaranteed, Anglo has a savings account that pays 8% and AIB currently have a childrens savings account that pays 10% (there are obviously T&Cs with these) -

*** At these rates your kids savings will grow from €6000 to €25000 in 15 years (I dont know what age your kids are) . . . this is a secure investment. For BOI shares to show this level of return they would have to grow to €23 a share (never going to happen mate ! - not even at the height of the Celtic Tiger / Property boom did they get to these dizzying valuations.) ***

Options like these are a better idea in the current market in my opinion. Again, this is my opinion and you're perfectly entitles to tell me to go and ***** if you want. Either way, I hope it works out for your savings. All the bes.

i like your other post and this one. you seem to me to be the only one in this post who knows what they are talking about.the rest are giving the usual rubbish opinions that they read somewhere on the net.

I will take your advice on board,i'm having second thoughts having heard what you guys have to say but i still think it is a good long term investment. your correct I am young. i'm 22. most of my investments (not shares) have been pretty risky/balls to the wall so far and i haven't done too bad at all. i suppose thats my style i'm a firm believer that high risk yields high dividends. the michael o'leary thing is a prime example.


maybe i need a bad investment to shake me up a bit and make me more cautious. i'm not afraid of going broke like the rest of you bean counters.you may have steady average income and if thats good enough for you then fine.yes,i would like to be minted and you dont get minted with out taking risks.if i do go broke it will only make me more hungry for success.

someone said something about being a 'sophisticated investor'. i am aware of the term and understand it but i dont see why i wont be able to buy BOI shares. i already own 200 BOI shares.i'm a BOI customer and have had large loans with them previously which have been repaid. I wont have a problem getting a loan from them;)

probably going to hold off on BOI for a while but it's still an option

pocketdooz

boomboombazza wrote: »

i like your other post and this one. you seem to me to be the only one in this post who knows what they are talking about.the rest are giving the usual rubbish opinions that they read somewhere on the net.

I will take your advice on board,i'm having second thoughts having heard what you guys have to say but i still think it is a good long term investment. your correct I am young. i'm 22. most of my investments (not shares) have been pretty risky/balls to the wall so far and i haven't done too bad at all. i suppose thats my style i'm a firm believer that high risk yields high dividends. the michael o'leary thing is a prime example.


maybe i need a bad investment to shake me up a bit and make me more cautious. i'm not afraid of going broke like the rest of you bean counters.you may have steady average income and if thats good enough for you then fine.yes,i would like to be minted and you dont get minted with out taking risks.if i do go broke it will only make me more hungry for success.

someone said something about being a 'sophisticated investor'. i am aware of the term and understand it but i dont see why i wont be able to buy BOI shares. i already own 200 BOI shares.i'm a BOI customer and have had large loans with them previously which have been repaid. I wont have a problem getting a loan from them;)

probably going to hold off on BOI for a while but it's still an option

One quick example - back in 2003/2004 I worked in New York.

One of my mates worked as a foreign exchange trader for Refco, at the time the largest currency trading firm in the world. They were high flyers and he made a lot of money. They were going public on the NYSE and were the next big thing.

They were a can't lose proposition - buy it and you'll double your money in 6 months type of thing. My friend bought $25,000 worth - I bought some too. Not that much but a substantial amount, a good chunk of my savings at the time.

They floated on Monday at $23 a share, Tuesday they were up to $28 a share - great return, we were on easy street !

Wednesday the CEO got found out as having made a doggy transactio worth $400m through the company. Closed at $12.

Thursday they closed at $5, by Friday they were worth 6 cents on the pink sheets.

$25,000 turned into $60 in a week.

Trust me mate - after an experience like this you will start to do your own research and not believe the press. The greatest investment tool is compounded interest - steady, reliable investments will outperform pie-in-the-sky ones continually.

But, if you have to go and risk it all, the best of luck with it ! I hope it works out for you.

By the way, wait til 2011 and re-evaluate your opinion on M. O'Leary

It's only when the tide goes out that you find out who's swimming naked. Ryanair have no hedging on their oil costs - let's see if O'Leary is still a genius when oil breaks $200 a barrel and the dollar rebounds.

My two cents.

pocketdooz

PS - boom bb, one thing you should 100% read is Fortune's Formula by William Poundstone. (second would be 'rich dad poor dad' and then third is 'when genius fails')

Remember - it's only what you learn after you know it all that really counts . . .

Enjoy

chump

pocketdooz wrote: »

By the way, wait til 2011 and re-evaluate your opinion on M. O'Leary

It's only when the tide goes out that you find out who's swimming naked. Ryanair have no hedging on their oil costs - let's see if O'Leary is still a genius when oil breaks $200 a barrel and the dollar rebounds.

My two cents.

But how will he be in any WORSE a position than any other airline company.

What is the longest any airline hedges for? 6months, 1 year? Would you hedge now?

What is so good about hedging anyway? You are betting on market movements and paying a fee for the liberty. If you have the appropriate working capital facilities in place it may make more sense NOT to hedge.


I honestly cannot see how Ryanair will be worse off that any other airline if oil oil breaks $200. The company passes on the extra cost to the consumer - big deal? Who is going to undercut them?

Are they not the most cost efficient airline in the industry?

Idu

I would have thought airlines were constantly hedged to offset any price increases on their balance sheets but the price increase would still affect them in terms of cash flow

Idu

Antithetic wrote: »

Honest question: If AIB and BOI are such good buys, why isn't their price higher right now?

because they aren't a good buy. A stock's price will more often than not accurrately reflect their market position and the underlying fundamentals of the stock. Right now banking stocks the world over are in the toilet and this is reflected in the stock prices of AIB and BOI.

I get the feeling from this thread that people think that because BOI were trading higher before that it stands to reason their price will go up again. Stocks don't work like that. As pocketdoo has already pointed out there is no rule that says a stock cant go to zero

chump

janets_on_clubs wrote: »

I would have thought airlines were constantly hedged to offset any price increases on their balance sheets but the price increase would still affect them in terms of cash flow

Totally confused with this statement?

Minder

I am curious as to why either of the potential BOI investors (rugbyman and the OP) would decide to buy at this moment. I know the OP hasn't bought yet. What is the basis of your decision to buy today? for example. Because they are cheaper than yesterday? Will they be cheaper tomorrow? The shares haven't rebounded yet, and looking at the long term chart, they took a bounce in late 2007, before falling to todays level. Why is a five euro a good entry point? Why not 4.50 or 4 or 2.... Do you have a strategy that determines your entry point - and exit? Do you have a target price at which you will sell? If not, why not? Would you get a better rate of return somewhere else - high interest account as someone has already suggested? (not with borrowed money).

I'm not expecting an answer btw, these are just some questions you need to ask yourself before making a commitment to buy any shares...

Idu

chump wrote: »

Totally confused with this statement?

me too now that I read back over it. What I was trying to say was that airlines should have an unrealised profit on a hedged oil position which will offset the increasing cost of having to physically buy the oil they use. This will only show up on a balance sheet though so the increased cost of actually having to buy the oil will still affect the cash flow of the airline.

So in the case of Ryanair having no hedged position the effects will be more noticeable on their bottom line than other airlines and as such they will struggle to keep undercutting other airlines

Iago

I've invested in BOI shares, not a life changing amount but enough to notice the pinch if it was to drop to zero. I've done so because I think that over time, be that 1/3/5/10 years the price will rebound significantly enough for me to make a good profit from them.
At worst I believe I'll get my money back and only have lost out on potential earnings rather than capital by the time I'm done.

While I appreciate the fact that they have a high exposure (particularly in the commercial sector) in both Ireland and the UK, their very limited exposure to the american sub-prime crisis combined with the price they've dropped to makes them attractive in my eyes. I don't believe the Irish market will bottom out so far that the stock price won't get back to at least €6 at some point over the next 3-10 years and therefore to my mind they're a reasonable investment that may pay a good dividend, but should at worst breakeven.

Of course I've invested money that I had put aside and wouldn't borrow to buy these shares but I do think they're a good long term play.

Idu

Iago wrote: »

I've invested in BOI shares, not a life changing amount but enough to notice the pinch if it was to drop to zero. I've done so because I think that over time, be that 1/3/5/10 years the price will rebound significantly enough for me to make a good profit from them.
At worst I believe I'll get my money back and only have lost out on potential earnings rather than capital by the time I'm done.QUOTE]

General question but lots of people seem to be talking about BOI being a good long term investment but people seem to have a huge time range connected to that, as in ranging from 1 year to 10 years.

My question to you guys who have invested or want to invest, do you have a price where you want to get out and are willing to wait x amount of time for it to reach that or is it a case of "in x amount of years I'm going to sell this stock regardless"?

punchestown

boomboombazza wrote: »

most of my investments (not shares) have been pretty risky/balls to the wall so far and i haven't done too bad at all.

i'm a BOI customer and have had large loans with them previously which have been repaid. I wont have a problem getting a loan from them;)

If you have previously done well from investments, you should not need to be borrowing one big lump sum. The money being made from previous investments should be redistributed in other forms of investment (keeping the eggs from the one basket)