Deconstructing...Kayroo (1,000th post)

Mellor

Ok, I'll go a bit more in depth. Seeing as Conor is staling.

As was mentioned, talking too much and generally playing low suited connector (type hands) OOP.

It has been mentioned but, seriously don't tap the tank as much. There are different levels to this of course, example when the Japanese guy (can't remember the name now), was being berated by "Nibbles", you hinted to shut up. This is the basic tank tapping, (where the player was making a terrible play, and telling him why won't make a difference) which you don't do too much anyway, but often you'll tell players why what they did was poor, or why you took a certain line, normally to defend a line when you hit. These are the players, like Nibbles, that know the basic plays and moves, but mis-apply. Occasionally, but less and less, you instruct these players at the table, why the CB was bad, or that that managed to get the min from a hand.

Now, I may sound like a hypocrite, and its true that I get invoved in post hand commenting on a hand. But a key difference, is that I try not to instruct (which helps ther players, and I try to simply ask. Ask why they did that, ask what they had etc. If they think their line was good, don't tell them it wasn't, ask them why. As with this approach, you gain much more info, their thought process, their level of thinking in the game etc,
Alot of people will probably say ideally, just don't do it; remain quiet.
But this is not a theory thread, its your Deconstruction. And you're not going to remain quiet.

Mellor

Mellor wrote: »

. And you're not going to remain quiet.

Not a chance no.

Also, I was chatting to ConBro and I doubt he'll do a post tbh, although Theresa is mad for him to for needling purposes.

TommyGunne

Yeah Mellor makes a good point. Just reading his post made me realise how easy it is to get a line on you cos you are so open about talking why you do stuff at the table. Talking at the table is fine, in fact I really enjoy it, and think its definitely +EV to have you there for enjoyment and keeping the fish in a decent mood, but talk about stuff that doesn't involve telling people how you play.

I played in the Jackpot for a few months before anyone knew me or my game. The first day I was at your table you basically told everyone what level you thought at.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

CourierCollie wrote: »

Though I think you should try to refrain from commenting on just how bad my, or the other fishies play is( something about 'tapping the fishtank').

THIS times a million. If someone is a fish, DON'T TELL THEM THEY ARE A FISH

apologies for the caps lock, but it needs to be done in this situation

Conbro

Was kinda hoping to be torn apart.

Okay so if you insist. Ive ignored the temptation to crticise your game up to now due mainly to the reason that my own game is in such a mess at the moment. However its good for my self esteem to be reminded that there is somebody out there playing worse than myself, hence my visit to the jackpot on Thursday night. While your game has improved immeasurably over the last year or so, it is still riddled with faults at all levels from the moment you walk in the door of the cardroom to how you assess a critical river decision. Here are my main criticicisms oy you as a poker player[ I'll get around to the personal stuff later:D]

1. Pay more attention to the players at your table and the dynamics of a game. As much as I enjoy your company and conversation at the table, youre constantly doing yourself a disservice, and putting yourself at a huge handicap by ignoring more important issues.

2.Your preflop range, from every position is generally far too wide although youre improving in this area. Its tempting to call with any two cards against the fish in the jackpot pf but alot of the time you're simply not deep enough to make these plays. Even with small pocket pair your implied odds need to be 11/1. Ive seen you call off more than 15% of your stack preflop in these situations.

3. Your cbet frequency is far too high for the games you're playing in. Your opponents in the jackpot will rarely drop top pair on an uncoordinated board.
AK, AQ etc lose their value greatly in these games, a point I dont think you've fully taken on board.

4.You tend to get married to top pair/poverpair hands. You need to concentrate more on your opponents possible holding.

5. Pick your bluffing spots more selectively. A bluff against a player with any sort of competence has to make some sort of sense. Youre bluffs are usually far too agresseve are usially made when its hard to credit you with any strength.

Thats all I have time for at the moment. Despite these faults your game has improved a great deal over the time Ive played with you. Your involvement in boards has obviously helped bring on your game a lot. Keep up the hard work and Im sure you'll continue to improve.
Cheers,
Conor

Macspower

Hi Keith,

wow only a 1000 posts.... thought ud have more...

I love your table chat... livens up the game... love seeing you tilt people..... even the dealers!

criticism: one I can think of is you rarely fold to a 3 bet... you are very inclined to call and fold to a flop bet... it's one I noticed ..

gl with your game which has improved as mentioned earlier

Mac

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

RoadSweeper

Never come into jackpot un-shaven again. Ugh!

CourierCollie

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

do the simple thing more often.

Pretty much nailed it there.
I know I haven't seen nearly enough hands. But from what I have seen, it looks to me as if you're more interested in outplaying the good players. Rather than just maximising your profit from a table.
Kinda depends on what your motivation for playing is though. For me it's pure entertainment, breaking even over the year is a success. Losing circa €5k over the year I'd consider a reasonable price for the experience.

RedJoker

Conbro wrote: »

2.Your preflop range, from every position is generally far too wide although youre improving in this area. Its tempting to call with any two cards against the fish in the jackpot pf but alot of the time you're simply not deep enough to make these plays. Even with small pocket pair your implied odds need to be 11/1. Ive seen you call off more than 15% of your stack preflop in these situations.

7.5/1

Conbro wrote: »

3. Your cbet frequency is far too high for the games you're playing in. Your opponents in the jackpot will rarely drop top pair on an uncoordinated board.
AK, AQ etc lose their value greatly in these games, a point I dont think you've fully taken on board.

That should make AK and AQ go way, way up in value.

Marq

you tilt me massively at the table. that's when I'm dealing.
From what I've observed you seem to have fundamental flaws in your thinking, and you talk an awful lot of shíte that gives away information about your own range rather than inducing information from your opponents.

I've only played with you once and that was well over a year ago, and I admit that my opinion is shaped by watching you in the busto-stakes round of each tournament, which given your reported success in the jackpot, I imagine you only play for fun (so you might be better when you're focussing on the big games in the jacks).

Mellor

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Give up more and let them have it more often. I'd rather be considered a "weak" player who is consistently profitable than a "strong scary" player who everyone gives platitudes to despite the fact that they are broke half the time. Only playing in the live arena and paying attention to how the playing base of a club like the Jackpot rates it's regs will skew your perceptions of how you should play and what you should aspire to. Just because you are "winning reg" doesn't mean that you have to table coach and try to make some heroic attempt to win every raised pot you enter.

Play less hands, fold more often, do the simple thing more often.

+1
Nail on head

Conbro

7.5/1

If youre going to contradict me, at least make sure you're right. You're odds of flopping a set may be roughly correct, but you're implied odds need to be considerably higher for various reasons thathave been well documented at this stage .

That should make AK and AQ go way, way up in value.
28-06-2008 23:08

Again you're mistaken. Continuation bets rarely work against loose players that tendto call pf with atc and check call with any pair on the flop

opr

Conbro wrote: »

If youre going to contradict me, at least make sure you're right. You're odds of flopping a set may be roughly correct, but you're implied odds need to be considerably higher for various reasons thathave been well documented at this stage .

lol

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055269469

Opr

Cheers for all the replies lads.

Doesn't help that you get set v set and then c-called 3 street by a gutshot straight draw when I flop trips for him to fill a backdoor flush first night you try and take these comments on board but thanks all the same.

Conbro

That was pretty sick Keith, along with a few other situations you were invloved in. If its any consolation, you played very well imo.

Conbro

Conbro wrote: »

That was pretty sick Keith, along with a few other situations you were invloved in. If its any consolation, you played very well imo.

Cheers Conor. Genuinely did attempt to implement the things people had said here along with a few other things. Just sick that I had a bad night really. Particularly after winning the Fitz R/E.

Goodluck2me

opr wrote: »

lol

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055269469

Opr

lol

RedJoker

Conbro wrote: »

If youre going to contradict me, at least make sure you're right. You're odds of flopping a set may be roughly correct, but you're implied odds need to be considerably higher for various reasons thathave been well documented at this stage .

The probability of flopping a set or better (except for 3 of a kind on the board) is 1 - (48/50)(47/49)(46/48) = 11.755%. So the odds of flopping a set (or better) is 88.245/11.755 which is 7.507/1.

Implied odds should be way higher then 11/1 but it depends on the situation.

Conbro wrote: »

Again you're mistaken. Continuation bets rarely work against loose players that tendto call pf with atc and check call with any pair on the flop

You said:
"Your opponents in the jackpot will rarely drop top pair on an uncoordinated board. AK, AQ etc lose their value greatly in these games"

If my opponents will rarely fold a pair to me then hands like AK and AQ, which make TPTK type hands that can be played like the nuts in this game, should go way up in value.

Conbro

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...p?t=2055269469

So after all the time you spent with this theory, you come on here and totally contradict yourself. Lmfao

RedJoker

Conbro wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...p?t=2055269469

So after all the time you spent with this theory, you come on here and totally contradict yourself. Lmfao

You said you need 11/1, you just pulled this number out of your arse. The probability of flopping a set is 7.5/1. Implied odds need to be at least twice that in almost all situations.

So 11/1 is never going to be a correct answer. Giving a fixed number for implied odds doesn't make any sense since it's so situation dependent. A fixed number for odds of flopping a set can be shown mathematically though.

Or is there another contradiction I'm missing?

Theresalwaysone

Conbro wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...p?t=2055269469

So after all the time you spent with this theory, you come on here and totally contradict yourself. Lmfao

Few Questions for ConBro:

TAG players opens MP, you are on the button with 77. You call?

Laggy player opens he BTN, you have 44, You call?

Which hand has greater implied odds? Why?

Mellor

RedJoker wrote: »

You said:
"Your opponents in the jackpot will rarely drop top pair on an uncoordinated board. AK, AQ etc lose their value greatly in these games"

If my opponents will rarely fold a pair to me then hands like AK and AQ, which make TPTK type hands that can be played like the nuts in this game, should go way up in value.

RJ, I think you misunderstood CBs post.

He said they rarely top pair and c-betting is bad as AK goes down in value.
I believe he was refering to c-betting an AK that hasn't made a pair. As in c-betting a flop you miss. Into players that won't fold any hand that hit.
Obviously, against these players, AK hands go up in value when you hit the flop.
And as a whole AK increases in value,
But conbro was refering specificly to a tendency to c-bet all flops, and the fact that always c-betting missed flops against these players causes AK in this spot to lose value. Losing value in these spots obviously cause AK overall to lose some value, (not the same as being -EV, just having a lower EV)