Deconstructing...Kayroo (1,000th post)

I asked Ste and since my legal article is nowhere near ready I figured a Decon thread would be most useful for me.

I don't expect this to be pretty to be honest and I have a thick skin. I really would like to improve my game this summer and I think the best way to begin any process of improvement is to identify and address your weaknesses. That said, I know I am the owner of many weaknesses so look forward to hearing your perspectives on them. I have been playing too long to be as stagnant in my approach to the game as I am.

Thanks in advane to everyone who replies. Don't expect it to be a monster as I have mostly only played around the Dublin circuit. Oh and Conbro...be nice.

BigCityBanker

talk less and concentrate more on table dynamics.

BIGMICKG

BigCityBanker wrote: »

talk less and concentrate more on table dynamics.

lol couldnt agree more with this. its bound to be a chatty table with u on it. altough i dont think this is a bad thing. dont really like commenting in these threads tbh. but from what ive seen u have excellent hand reading skills. not much else to say

TommyGunne

I've always enjoyed playing with you. Any advice I give is to be taken with a grain of salt cos I haven't played much with you in a good while though.

Imo you need to concentrate on your own line a lot more. You sometimes take the weirdest lines where straightforward ones are much better. When bluffing you often misrep or rep too narrow a range also imo.

You could do with a little more focussed aggression too. You can be aggressive, but it is often in bad spots, while you would not be as aggressive in better spots for it.

The main thing though is how I felt you dealt with ranges. Although you hand read quite well, you often get caught up in trying to pin someone on a hand. ie you could work a bit on assigning ranges.

From your posts here though you have been improving a hell of a lot from last summer, when I used to play with you regularly. I have no doubt that you would be a much tougher opponent now (without implying that you weren't then). GL and keep it up.

Slash/ED

What TommyGunne said, I haven't really played with you at all in a good while and when I did it was only at full ring live cash where you just played the kind of standard, solid game required to beat it.

The best way to really improve your game from there, imo, is to just play alot of 6 max cash online, and post and discuss HH's. Really there's no substitute for experience and in terms of quantity and quality online will teach you far far more than the basic game required to beat the Jackpot cash game.

That said just like TG, it's been a long time since I've played regularly with you and I'd imagine your game has improved alot since then anyway so that's about the only thing I can say really.

Theresalwaysone

Gonna take a while, will come back to this when I have given it more thought. I also cant wait for Conbro's reply.

strewelpeter

Pic please, not sure if you are yourself or the other you I think you might be:cool:

Slash/ED

Kayroo would be the chattier of the two you're thinking of...

Theresalwaysone

OK, here goes. I have an awful lot of table time with you, and this is just IMO.

Your reasoning for a move is nearly always totally influenced by one dynamic only, what I mean is, if you decide to raise you might only focus on how strong your hand is. You might only focus on wanting to get it heads up because your hand is vulnerable. You might only raise because they're were limpers, you dont ever really put all the dynamics together and come to a fuller/more correct decision.

You ignore/dont understand (whichever) implied odds. For example, you have on occasion called LP raises from the sb with hands speculative hands heads up when the original raiser is short stacked. There is no value here. This is quite a big leak of your imo.

You don't pay enough attention. This is linked with my first point. You tend to ignore position a lot, particularly how it affects hand ranges and strength. An UTG raise from a tight player or a loose spewy player does not affect your calling/raising/folding range.

Tommy Gunne said it and it hasnt changed, you are too weak in some spots and far to aggressive in others. Examples include that time you went mad with the AJ against me with the 55 on the paired board. That aggression was unwarranted, granted my call was spewy but my point stands I had shown enough interest by the turn that you didnt need to put the rest in.

You are also too weak in spots, you wont raise for fear of losing your customer. I think this stems from not assigning ranges and trying to pin hands on people, it clouds your judgement and while leads you to play very well if the player has the particular hand you thought,on the whole, against villains range you lose a lot of value or end up stacking yourself.

I wouldn't go as far to say your hand reading is superb. Its not. Again this is linked to point one. You read quite well, but you never believe yourself. This is another huge leak. One hand I remember is that Hand versus IanMC in the jackers, you called the turn lead with the bare ace rag etc.

Some things you do well;

Talk. You keep the table banterful, this is +EV.
You beat the live games fine, your game is perfect for this, if a little loose.
Your bet sizing is rarely bad.

I'll think of more as I go and add em in etc.

GL mate(sorry about the shredding).

Silver-Tiger

BigCityBanker wrote: »

talk less and concentrate more on table dynamics.

Agreed,
I over heard a conversation between two mates saying john motson was on their table in the jackpot,
I asked John Motson WTF??
They answered , they guy who commentates on everything. I knew who they were talking about straight away.

Gl with the thread.

sickpuppy

I remember one time leaving the jackpot because of your constant chatter,
for fear id assault you.
Never have i felt the urge to punch a stranger as much as yourself at the table maybe you do have a higher than average IQ well done does not mean the rest of the table wants to here about it :pac:

Mellor

sickpuppy wrote: »

I remember one time leaving the jackpot because of your constant chatter,
for fear id assault you.
Never have i felt the urge to punch a stranger as much as yourself at the table maybe you do have a higher than average IQ well done does not mean the rest of the table wants to here about it :pac:

lol tilt much



Focus:
You seam to find yourself in situations where you are getting "exactly the right price to call". Now alot of the time you are right where a lesser player folds, but by limpin bad hands, or calling small raises with speculative hands.

An example of this, I was short and on the button, you expected me to push a huge range. You called in the CO, and I pushed, you then had a border line call to make,
If you knew I was going to push then calling before is wrong.
Example, if you were button and I the CO, your call is wrong, my investing a small amount you increase the pot and reduce the amount you call, so it becomes neutral.

Manipulating pot odds to make a call neutral like this is wrong.


Other than that, the chat is fine, if people tilt or give out info its +EV

CourierCollie

sickpuppy wrote: »

I remember one time leaving the jackpot because of your constant chatter,
for fear id assault you.
Never have i felt the urge to punch a stranger as much as yourself at the table maybe you do have a higher than average IQ well done does not mean the rest of the table wants to here about it :pac:

I'd be on the opposite side of the fence regarding this. Anytime I've been to the Jackpot, and I don't get to hear Kayroos chatter, is a disappointing experience for me.
Don't know your game well enough to comment. Though I think you should try to refrain from commenting on just how bad my, or the other fishies play is( something about 'tapping the fishtank').

jbravado

sickpuppy wrote: »

I remember one time leaving the jackpot because of your constant chatter,
for fear id assault you.

LOL.

I dig. When I first started playing I hated you, literally HATED you.
It probably wasnt helped by one of the most ridiculous ever hands where you floated the flop with no pair no draw-then picked up a gutshot on the turn and set me in when I couldnt fold even if I thought I was dead duck as I was getting around 12-1 on my money. Old man river spewed up the middler ftw and I literally rememeber thinking "free money".
I wouldnt change a thing about your continious speech/speech play as personally I know when I didnt know you it tilted me so much I played a lot of hands against you, a lot of the time oop and with the proverbial bag of spanners.
Apologies I havent a huge amount of hands over the last year so nothing hugely constructive to offer. I have heard from a few sources that you have improved immeasurably which I guess wasnt hard but defo agree you could pay a lot more attnetion to whats ACTUALLY going on at the table.
Your an intelligent guy and Im sure if you applied yourself you could improve your game no end-you beat jacks game well enough afaik but shouldnt let it stunt your devolpment.
FWIW now I know you a bit better-I enjoy being at your table (free money aside) and wish you all the best in the future.

Forgot to add in that ridic hand I had the nut flush draw (all spade flop. Man that hand still tilts me.)

sickpuppy

sickpuppy wrote: »

I remember one time leaving the jackpot because of your constant chatter,
for fear id assault you.
Never have i felt the urge to punch a stranger as much as yourself at the table maybe you do have a higher than average IQ well done does not mean the rest of the table wants to here about it :pac:

Sorry if I ruined your night. I remember the exact night you are talking about and I was doing my best to really wind ConBro up. Apologies if I had a negative effect on your night.

There are certain players I focus on to tilt (jbravado was one, the value in getting Sam to tilt is HUGE) and I know a consequence of this is I can annoy some people. Apologies, never ever my intention.

Thanks for the replies so far guys. Can someone wake Conbro up so I can feel bad about myself a bit?

sickpuppy

You didnt ruin my night prob saved me money i didnt mean to have a personal attack on you
some people take a little time to warm too perhaps you are one of them

Theresalwaysone

sickpuppy wrote: »

You didnt ruin my night prob saved me money i didnt mean to have a personal attack on you
some people take a little time to warm too perhaps you are one of them

haha.

He is just as annoying years after you meet him as he is on Day one. Only as time passed you realise more and more of it is BS.

THERE, I said it.:cool:

Conbro

Im doing my bollox online so I was going to leave my reply to later when Im a bit calmer. However if you want a real honest response at this moment in time then Ill duly oblige:D

I remember the exact night you are talking about and I was doing my best to really wind ConBro up

The only way you'll get me on tilt is by outplaying me and lets face it..

Theresalwaysone

Conbro wrote: »

Im doing my bollox online so I was going to leave my reply to later when Im a bit calmer. However if you want a real honest response at this moment in time then Ill duly oblige:D




The only way you'll get me on tilt is by outplaying me and lets face it..

Someone post the popcorn pic. This is gonna be great.

Also, its very easy to tilt Conbro. VERY.

Conbro

Conbro wrote: »

Im doing my bollox online...

Conbro wrote: »

The only way you'll get me on tilt is by outplaying me and lets face it..

Wow I must suck so...:D Popcorn at the ready

Killme00

Theresalwaysone wrote: »

Someone post the popcorn pic. This is gonna be great.

Also, its very easy to tilt Conbro. VERY.

I concur.

All you have to do is suck out on him and lets face it, Keith is very very good at that!


:pac:

Killme00

Killme00 wrote: »

I concur.

All you have to do is suck out on him and lets face it, Keith is very very good at that!


:pac:

I give coaching in racing -v- superior players.

Trippie

Deleted User wrote: »

I give coaching in racing -v- superior players.

well you certainly run good against me then again dont most ppl

AKQJ10

Invest in a bicycle

AKQJ10

AKQJ10 wrote: »

Invest in a bicycle

That one for me or Trippie?

AKQJ10

Both

wendelsailor

I like the fact that your so quiet and calm at the table. You tend to really focus on your hands and you don't bother getting involved in the banter. Ive never met someone with such a Zen like attitude to poker. It's almost as if you are not aware of anything going on around you.

wendelsailor

wendelsailor wrote: »

It's almost as if you are not aware of anything going on around you.

QFT

zuroph

so kayroos deconstruction is "he talks too much"?
i look forward to mine..."dont know you"

zuroph

zuroph wrote: »

so kayroos deconstruction is "he talks too much"?
i look forward to mine..."dont know you"

I'm a bit disappointed actually. Was kinda hoping to be torn apart. There may be an element of "don't mess with the fish" about the posts here. Darn it!

zuroph

yeah, the ones before were much more in depth.

been wondering about this, i want deconstructing, my game needs serious sorting out, but since im not in dublin, i guess no1 here is going to be able to help me much.

Mellor

Ok, I'll go a bit more in depth. Seeing as Conor is staling.

As was mentioned, talking too much and generally playing low suited connector (type hands) OOP.

It has been mentioned but, seriously don't tap the tank as much. There are different levels to this of course, example when the Japanese guy (can't remember the name now), was being berated by "Nibbles", you hinted to shut up. This is the basic tank tapping, (where the player was making a terrible play, and telling him why won't make a difference) which you don't do too much anyway, but often you'll tell players why what they did was poor, or why you took a certain line, normally to defend a line when you hit. These are the players, like Nibbles, that know the basic plays and moves, but mis-apply. Occasionally, but less and less, you instruct these players at the table, why the CB was bad, or that that managed to get the min from a hand.

Now, I may sound like a hypocrite, and its true that I get invoved in post hand commenting on a hand. But a key difference, is that I try not to instruct (which helps ther players, and I try to simply ask. Ask why they did that, ask what they had etc. If they think their line was good, don't tell them it wasn't, ask them why. As with this approach, you gain much more info, their thought process, their level of thinking in the game etc,
Alot of people will probably say ideally, just don't do it; remain quiet.
But this is not a theory thread, its your Deconstruction. And you're not going to remain quiet.

Mellor

Mellor wrote: »

. And you're not going to remain quiet.

Not a chance no.

Also, I was chatting to ConBro and I doubt he'll do a post tbh, although Theresa is mad for him to for needling purposes.

TommyGunne

Yeah Mellor makes a good point. Just reading his post made me realise how easy it is to get a line on you cos you are so open about talking why you do stuff at the table. Talking at the table is fine, in fact I really enjoy it, and think its definitely +EV to have you there for enjoyment and keeping the fish in a decent mood, but talk about stuff that doesn't involve telling people how you play.

I played in the Jackpot for a few months before anyone knew me or my game. The first day I was at your table you basically told everyone what level you thought at.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

CourierCollie wrote: »

Though I think you should try to refrain from commenting on just how bad my, or the other fishies play is( something about 'tapping the fishtank').

THIS times a million. If someone is a fish, DON'T TELL THEM THEY ARE A FISH

apologies for the caps lock, but it needs to be done in this situation

Conbro

Was kinda hoping to be torn apart.

Okay so if you insist. Ive ignored the temptation to crticise your game up to now due mainly to the reason that my own game is in such a mess at the moment. However its good for my self esteem to be reminded that there is somebody out there playing worse than myself, hence my visit to the jackpot on Thursday night. While your game has improved immeasurably over the last year or so, it is still riddled with faults at all levels from the moment you walk in the door of the cardroom to how you assess a critical river decision. Here are my main criticicisms oy you as a poker player[ I'll get around to the personal stuff later:D]

1. Pay more attention to the players at your table and the dynamics of a game. As much as I enjoy your company and conversation at the table, youre constantly doing yourself a disservice, and putting yourself at a huge handicap by ignoring more important issues.

2.Your preflop range, from every position is generally far too wide although youre improving in this area. Its tempting to call with any two cards against the fish in the jackpot pf but alot of the time you're simply not deep enough to make these plays. Even with small pocket pair your implied odds need to be 11/1. Ive seen you call off more than 15% of your stack preflop in these situations.

3. Your cbet frequency is far too high for the games you're playing in. Your opponents in the jackpot will rarely drop top pair on an uncoordinated board.
AK, AQ etc lose their value greatly in these games, a point I dont think you've fully taken on board.

4.You tend to get married to top pair/poverpair hands. You need to concentrate more on your opponents possible holding.

5. Pick your bluffing spots more selectively. A bluff against a player with any sort of competence has to make some sort of sense. Youre bluffs are usually far too agresseve are usially made when its hard to credit you with any strength.

Thats all I have time for at the moment. Despite these faults your game has improved a great deal over the time Ive played with you. Your involvement in boards has obviously helped bring on your game a lot. Keep up the hard work and Im sure you'll continue to improve.
Cheers,
Conor

Macspower

Hi Keith,

wow only a 1000 posts.... thought ud have more...

I love your table chat... livens up the game... love seeing you tilt people..... even the dealers!

criticism: one I can think of is you rarely fold to a 3 bet... you are very inclined to call and fold to a flop bet... it's one I noticed ..

gl with your game which has improved as mentioned earlier

Mac

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

RoadSweeper

Never come into jackpot un-shaven again. Ugh!

CourierCollie

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

do the simple thing more often.

Pretty much nailed it there.
I know I haven't seen nearly enough hands. But from what I have seen, it looks to me as if you're more interested in outplaying the good players. Rather than just maximising your profit from a table.
Kinda depends on what your motivation for playing is though. For me it's pure entertainment, breaking even over the year is a success. Losing circa €5k over the year I'd consider a reasonable price for the experience.

RedJoker

Conbro wrote: »

2.Your preflop range, from every position is generally far too wide although youre improving in this area. Its tempting to call with any two cards against the fish in the jackpot pf but alot of the time you're simply not deep enough to make these plays. Even with small pocket pair your implied odds need to be 11/1. Ive seen you call off more than 15% of your stack preflop in these situations.

7.5/1

Conbro wrote: »

3. Your cbet frequency is far too high for the games you're playing in. Your opponents in the jackpot will rarely drop top pair on an uncoordinated board.
AK, AQ etc lose their value greatly in these games, a point I dont think you've fully taken on board.

That should make AK and AQ go way, way up in value.

Marq

you tilt me massively at the table. that's when I'm dealing.
From what I've observed you seem to have fundamental flaws in your thinking, and you talk an awful lot of shíte that gives away information about your own range rather than inducing information from your opponents.

I've only played with you once and that was well over a year ago, and I admit that my opinion is shaped by watching you in the busto-stakes round of each tournament, which given your reported success in the jackpot, I imagine you only play for fun (so you might be better when you're focussing on the big games in the jacks).

Mellor

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Give up more and let them have it more often. I'd rather be considered a "weak" player who is consistently profitable than a "strong scary" player who everyone gives platitudes to despite the fact that they are broke half the time. Only playing in the live arena and paying attention to how the playing base of a club like the Jackpot rates it's regs will skew your perceptions of how you should play and what you should aspire to. Just because you are "winning reg" doesn't mean that you have to table coach and try to make some heroic attempt to win every raised pot you enter.

Play less hands, fold more often, do the simple thing more often.

+1
Nail on head

Conbro

7.5/1

If youre going to contradict me, at least make sure you're right. You're odds of flopping a set may be roughly correct, but you're implied odds need to be considerably higher for various reasons thathave been well documented at this stage .

That should make AK and AQ go way, way up in value.
28-06-2008 23:08

Again you're mistaken. Continuation bets rarely work against loose players that tendto call pf with atc and check call with any pair on the flop

opr

Conbro wrote: »

If youre going to contradict me, at least make sure you're right. You're odds of flopping a set may be roughly correct, but you're implied odds need to be considerably higher for various reasons thathave been well documented at this stage .

lol

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055269469

Opr

Cheers for all the replies lads.

Doesn't help that you get set v set and then c-called 3 street by a gutshot straight draw when I flop trips for him to fill a backdoor flush first night you try and take these comments on board but thanks all the same.

Conbro

That was pretty sick Keith, along with a few other situations you were invloved in. If its any consolation, you played very well imo.

Conbro

Conbro wrote: »

That was pretty sick Keith, along with a few other situations you were invloved in. If its any consolation, you played very well imo.

Cheers Conor. Genuinely did attempt to implement the things people had said here along with a few other things. Just sick that I had a bad night really. Particularly after winning the Fitz R/E.

Goodluck2me

opr wrote: »

lol

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055269469

Opr

lol

RedJoker

Conbro wrote: »

If youre going to contradict me, at least make sure you're right. You're odds of flopping a set may be roughly correct, but you're implied odds need to be considerably higher for various reasons thathave been well documented at this stage .

The probability of flopping a set or better (except for 3 of a kind on the board) is 1 - (48/50)(47/49)(46/48) = 11.755%. So the odds of flopping a set (or better) is 88.245/11.755 which is 7.507/1.

Implied odds should be way higher then 11/1 but it depends on the situation.

Conbro wrote: »

Again you're mistaken. Continuation bets rarely work against loose players that tendto call pf with atc and check call with any pair on the flop

You said:
"Your opponents in the jackpot will rarely drop top pair on an uncoordinated board. AK, AQ etc lose their value greatly in these games"

If my opponents will rarely fold a pair to me then hands like AK and AQ, which make TPTK type hands that can be played like the nuts in this game, should go way up in value.

Conbro

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...p?t=2055269469

So after all the time you spent with this theory, you come on here and totally contradict yourself. Lmfao