Web Design Pricing

WebExpert

Hi,

I have set up a website design company in the north of the country. There are too many web designers so the market is very competitive. Its a tough area.

Anyway, for the first few websites that I have designed I have charged around €350 and €50 per year for domain registration and shared hosting. These were static sites with the only programming really being a PHP contact form. I optimised it for SEs and also am running a link building campaign for free. For any dynamic sites I would charge anything between €600 and €6000 depending on what is needed.

Are these rates too cheap? What generally are the going rates?

Also, at the rates specified above do you think it would be possible for me to get sub-contract work from other web design companies? I can do a maximum of 15 10 page static websites per week so its just a matter of getting the business. I know that the work I do will match any web design company in the country.

Thanks for any advice, I would be very interested in hearing from other web designers.

The Mighty Ken

WebExpert wrote: »

Are these rates too cheap?

Probably. It all depends on the quality of the work you're turning around.

WebExpert wrote: »

Also, at the rates specified above do you think it would be possible for me to get sub-contract work from other web design companies?...I know that the work I do will match any web design company in the country.

That's a fairly bold statement. Even if Irish Web shops are mostly crap. If you're as good as you think you are then PM me your portfolio and I'll throw plenty of work your way. However...

WebExpert wrote: »

I can do a maximum of 15 10 page static websites per week

Are you talking about bespoke designs? That's two per day which is, quite frankly, ridiculous. Professional designers generally take at least 3 or 4 days to come up with concepts.

WebExpert

Hi Mighty Ken,

You can put me to the test, I would have no problem doing 1 free website for you to prove the quality of my design. That way you have nothing to lose.

Normally it actually does take me 3 to 4 days to turn around a full website especially if a lot of changes are required. However, in that time I could be working on another 3 to 4 also. The actual look and design of the final designs are always extremely professional. The delay is usually caused by the client wanting face to face meetings and a lot of paperwork. To date I have only officially done a few websites, Im basically a free lance designer. I would ask for 5 days for a 10 page static website just to make sure I get it right.

The 10-15 is possible but as you say the overall level of the service may lack a professional approach i.e. no reports on the work, sloppy content etc.

I am currently updating my new website and will PM you a link Monday or Tuesday. I have done work in Ireland, Northern Ireland, England and Portugal. It was simply through contacts that I got this work but I now realise there is potential for me, especially as a free lance due to my rates and quality of the work.

Thanks for your reply

Trojan

I echo Ken's scepticism regarding the speed of production vs quality. (I.e. Fast/Good/Cheap - pick any two.) I'm also interested in seeing your portfolio.

There was an interesting thread on website pricing here, feel free to read it, but please don't pull up old arguments again or we'll have to lock this one as well

Webmonkey

I'd be interested to see how one could come up with possibly 10 - 15 designs in a week. Be interested in seeing your portfolio OP

The Mighty Ken

WebExpert wrote: »

You can put me to the test, I would have no problem doing 1 free website for you to prove the quality of my design. That way you have nothing to lose.

That's your first mistake right there. You should never work for free and I would never expect you to. It cheapens the industry. This isn't a cottage industry and you're not baking scones by the way. The crafting of a professional website to a level that I would consider acceptable requires a massive wealth of knowledge on both the creative and technical ends. The triviality with which you seem to be carrying out your trade makes me very skeptical. However, PM me the link to your portfolio and prove me wrong!

Axwell

Would also be interested in your portfolio as have work to outsource from time to time but would be skeptical if you say you can turn around a site in 3 to 4 days while also working on other sites. But as Ken said you can prove me wrong. Look forward to seeing your work!

forbairt

I could see someone doing 10 designs in a week ... but 10 coded designs ... conforming to standards and all being unique (to a certain degree at least) and pages / content / images ... and so on

While also dealing with customers ...

I'm looking forward to seeing the portfolio

kjt

forbairt wrote: »

I could see someone doing 10 designs in a week ... but 10 coded designs ... conforming to standards and all being unique (to a certain degree at least) and pages / content / images ... and so on

While also dealing with customers ...

I'm looking forward to seeing the portfolio

+1

ChicoMendez

forbairt wrote: »

I could see someone doing 10 designs in a week ... but 10 coded designs ... conforming to standards and all being unique (to a certain degree at least) and pages / content / images ... and so on

While also dealing with customers ...

I'm looking forward to seeing the portfolio

+2

pontovic

Yep me too

Gordon

/me awaits bubblesque webpage(s)ireland site to appear shortly.

BRENSH

Personally i would be able to build (programming wise) professional and intelligent websites. I have a very strong knowledge of Javascript and PHP. I am only a student in university and I dont think it takes an amazing wealth of knowledge. It took me a year to know the basics. I am now fairly good and the programming side of it. My biggest problem is design. If I got a spec I would be able to wip up something.
To get to my point I don't think learning professional grade web design isnt too difficult at all. I think the prices are very high considering some of the prices. Like a web page is made up of a knowledge of client side language, databases, server side language, security knowledge, some mark up language and communication protcols knowledge. If you see my website. That was made a long time ago so dont judge me by that. I am not talking about the likes of google or anything. Just companies that design website for others.

aidan_walsh

BRENSH wrote:

Like a web page is made up of a knowledge of client side language, databases, server side language, security knowledge, some mark up language and communication protcols knowledge.

This is development. These focus on design. There is a world of difference.

Webmonkey

BRENSH wrote: »

Personally i would be able to build (programming wise) professional and intelligent websites. I have a very strong knowledge of Javascript and PHP. I am only a student in university and I dont think it takes an amazing wealth of knowledge. It took me a year to know the basics. I am now fairly good and the programming side of it. My biggest problem is design. If I got a spec I would be able to wip up something.
To get to my point I don't think learning professional grade web design isnt too difficult at all. I think the prices are very high considering some of the prices. Like a web page is made up of a knowledge of client side language, databases, server side language, security knowledge, some mark up language and communication protcols knowledge. If you see my website. That was made a long time ago so dont judge me by that. I am not talking about the likes of google or anything. Just companies that design website for others.

Was http://irishradioportal.com/ done by you?

WebExpert

Thanks for all the replies. I will PM everyone in a few days with a link to my own website and portfolio. The portfolio will be small but should get the design capabilities across to you. The websites in the portfolio will range from 7 to 8 out of 10. I am capable of going up a few notches. Nevertheless I think that at least some of you will find my designs up to standard.

If there is anyone else that would like to see a small taste of my work please either reply here or PM me.

Thanks

aidan_walsh

WebExpert wrote:

I will PM everyone in a few days with a link to my own website and portfolio.

Why not just post it?

Gauge

I'd be interested in seeing your portfolio.

WebExpert

aidan_walsh wrote: »

Why not just post it?

I may do in a week or two but I would like to get some private feedback first before going all out public with it. Just my preference.

turgon

WebExpert, Id like to see your portfolio

Id like to see where everyone is at and to compare it to my own work etc.

herya

turgon wrote: »

WebExpert, Id like to see your portfolio

Id like to see where everyone is at and to compare it to my own work etc.

Me too, thank you!

BRENSH

Yes it as. About a year ago. I learned a lot since then. There are a lot of faults with though. Its not very extensible. I try to use the zend framework. About design I am useless at it. I have been meaning to improve it.

nikimere

Sounds like a piss take.
Post your portfolio here. I will eat my boxer shorts if you a producing 2 high quality bespoke static website a day.
Post your portfolio link here

WebExpert

Its not a joke, I can do 2 websites per day - 2 static websites that look professional and tidy. I work long hours at present anyway, mostly doing private software systems for a few companies. Also, I can work most weekends.

My portfolio will be small but will give an idea of what Im capable of. I think you will be pleased with the quality.

heggie

post a link or stop touting your services, its very easy to say all that -even post one site/layout you've done. 2 websites per day (of good quality) is unheard of

WebExpert

Hi,

Ok, I will post one.

Ive done www dot isasensing .co.uk

The contact page doesn't exist, they are going to do this themselves as its on their server. I did everything on that website aprt from some graphics taken from their Portugeese website.

The above website, I would rate it about 8/10 but it was done quickly. 7 hours over 3 days I think.

Please let me know what you think, I know its far from perfect but professional and tidy enough for quick work.

nikimere

Looks like i wont be eating my boxer shorts
I don't mean this to sound bad (just don't have the time to word it nicely).
I personally would rate that site at about 3/10.
I much prefer the Portuguese site: www.isa.pt

It's better than something an average Joe would make but you could do an awful lot better. It's a little chunky and clumsy looking, and the red has permanently burnt a hole in my retina. Also it doesn't render properly in firefox.

forbairt

nikimere wrote: »

the red has permanently burnt a hole in my retina.

+1 ... I thought I might have been just tired or something ... I don't think I can see right after viewing that for a minute

WebExpert

Ok,

thanks very much for the feedback.

The red was not my idea.

WebExpert

nikimere wrote: »

Looks like i wont be eating my boxer shorts
I don't mean this to sound bad (just don't have the time to word it nicely).
I personally would rate that site at about 3/10.
I much prefer the Portuguese site: www.isa.pt

It's better than something an average Joe would make but you could do an awful lot better. It's a little chunky and clumsy looking, and the red has permanently burnt a hole in my retina. Also it doesn't render properly in firefox.

If you would rate this 3/10 then I would like to see the websites you rate 8/10

WebExpert

Hi,

Here is a 2nd one, this one took 9 hours. Its a related company to the above. Some changes were made from the original design but I did the full template:

www. futumeter.ie/

heggie

looks like the industry won't be revolutionised just yet. 61 errors, and broken on a mac, you do blow your own horn don't you!

WebExpert

heggie wrote: »

looks like the industry won't be revolutionised just yet. 61 errors, and broken on a mac, you do blow your own horn don't you!

They made a lot of changes themselves. Please don't blame me for those issues but I can easily fix them

Webmonkey

WebExpert wrote: »

If you would rate this 3/10 then I would like to see the websites you rate 8/10

I would also rate it 3,4/10 - sorry to sound harsh

For a start it has 69 HTML errors that doesn't look too good

The Mighty Ken

Listen mate - 3 out of 10 is being very generous. I'm not trying to offend you purposely but the first step you need to take towards being a good Web designer is to stop being so deluded and take a look around you to see what the real pro's are producing. If it's any consolation, you're in the same boat as hundreds of other noob Web designers who think they're the dog's bollox. The fact is that you have a long way to go before you can call yourself a heavyweight... or even a middleweight.

Having said all of this, there is potential there. The site you've shown us is very basic and looks aged (something like that would have passed for a site back in the mid-late 90's). Still, at least there's understanding of grid and structure and you've made some (albeit a blundered) attempt at understanding Web standards. Your site would be about above average for someone starting out so kudos to you in that regard.

If you want to see some 7/10 - 10/10 efforts, have a look at sites such as CSS Beauty, Design Shack, etc.

WebExpert

Webmonkey wrote: »

I would also rate it 3,4/10 - sorry to sound harsh

For a start it has 69 HTML errors that doesn't look too good

No problem Webmonkey, I will work on future designs to raise the standard. This feedback is extremely valuable.

The HTML errors I can fix easily. Can you advise me on other areas where I need to improve?

WebExpert

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

Listen mate - 3 out of 10 is being very generous. I'm not trying to offend you purposely but the first step you need to take towards being a good Web designer is to stop being so deluded and take a look around you to see what the real pro's are producing. If it's any consolation, you're in the same boat as hundreds of other noob Web designers who think they're the dog's bollox. The fact is that you have a long way to go before you can call yourself a heavyweight... or even a middleweight.

Having said all of this, there is potential there. The site you've shown us is very basic and looks aged (something like that would have passed for a site back in the mid-late 90's). Still, at least there's understanding of grid and structure and you've made some (albeit a blundered) attempt at understanding Web standards. Your site would be about above average for someone starting out so kudos to you in that regard.

If you want to see some 7/10 - 10/10 efforts, have a look at sites such as CSS Beauty, Design Shack, etc.

Thanks Ken.

Can I just say, the CSS Beauty site looks not so good to me, a nightmare for me to read. The other website is very good and I can produce websites to this standard also, I would rate 9/10.

I think I have the capability, its just that there are so many different opinions flying around. Technical type people seem to like totally different websites to "normal" people.

Thanks. Can you advise me more on how to improve?

Axwell

On www.isasensing.co.uk any particular reason why you need an image on the about us page that is 1.3 meg is size? Surely as a web expert you would have had the time in those 7 hours to do a bit of image optimisation, also the images in the flash banner are blurry and distorted.

http://www.futumeter.ie/ - links at the bottom to the 3 sections have the border appearing around the titles, text on the Gas page isnt aligned properly, all sits to the left.

I think you hyped yourself up a bit too much to begin with - your work isnt terrible but you didnt help with all the comments about how good it was and then showing work that most people would say is average but then when you have all these errors in the background on top of that well that just makes it worse again.

Also i would assume Ken is telling you to look at the designs on CSS Beauty not the site itself to see how good sites should look.

WebExpert

Axwell wrote: »

On www.isasensing.co.uk any particular reason why you need an image on the about us page that is 1.3 meg is size? Surely as a web expert you would have had the time in those 7 hours to do a bit of image optimisation, also the images in the flash banner are blurry and distorted.

http://www.futumeter.ie/ - links at the bottom to the 3 sections have the border appearing around the titles, text on the Gas page isnt aligned properly, all sits to the left.

I think you hyped yourself up a bit too much to begin with - your work isnt terrible but you didnt help with all the comments about how good it was and then showing work that most people would say is average but then when you have all these errors in the background on top of that well that just makes it worse again.

Thanks Axwell.

The futum website changes were mostly made by them but I agree with you on the isasensin website too.

Thanks

heggie

in addition to what's mentioned you really need to learn how to design. By that I mean, the use of a grid, eye paths, typography, colour interaction etc, there's no point in having a well coded ugly site.

forbairt

The sites aren't that bad ... (apart from the red thing)

As was just said ... you've hyped yourself up too much.

Yes ... one can put together 15 websites in a week no hastle. Unfortunately what you've shown us is that you can put together 15 unpolished websites in a week. You're mentioning some of them taking 9 hours and 7 hours ??

Given that is roughly 2 days you're releastically talking about being able to put together 7 unpolished websites in a week. Now if you start to polish up the websites further you're down to 3 or 4 a week ... Add into the mix administration / meeting customers .. tweaking designs ... creating a highly polished design and some other work in there and you'll be luck to get 1 - 2 websites done in a week.

This is me talking from experience .. others may differ but I doubt it. I've a number of projects on the go all the time not to mention support and other things so it can be every 2 or 3 weeks that I release a website or even more depending on what I'm doing.

The Mighty Ken

WebExpert wrote: »

Can I just say, the CSS Beauty site looks not so good to me, a nightmare for me to read. The other website is very good and I can produce websites to this standard also, I would rate 9/10.

CSS Beauty isn't really supposed to look good. It's the designs that it showcases that are supposed to be the example! Admittedly they're not all good but, by and large, these are the kind of gallery sites you want to visit to get inspiration.

WebExpert wrote: »

I think I have the capability, its just that there are so many different opinions flying around. Technical type people seem to like totally different websites to "normal" people.

Thanks. Can you advise me more on how to improve?

There are no real hard or fast answers that I can give you to help you become a better designer overnight. The bottom line is that you have to love design. You have to live it and breathe it and appreciate it in all it's forms - not just on the Web. You also have to practice. I'm a developer but the best designers that I've worked with spent years with no life and an inordinate number of late nights in front of their computers, mastering their art. Then there are people who, despite working their asses off, will never be any use due to lack of the specific type of talent and aesthetic taste that it takes.

It's a tricky one but most people can become at least decent, professional level designers with a lot of hard work and a passion for their jobs. But if you're lazy and deluded into thinking you're some sort of a demi-god before you've even made it out of the starting blocks, then you're completely f**ked. That's the best advice I can give you - learn more about design, work hard at it, be humble and realistic about your ability and know your weaknesses.

Gauge

There's nothing I can say that hasn't already been said, but here's a couple of things that stood out to me, the areas you should improve on:

- Large images scaled down to a smaller size using code. No. I'm using broadband and half your images are taking forever to show. This is a pet peeve of mine.
- Between your two pages, I'm getting over 90 errors when I attempt to validate them. You should definitely try to make sure your pages validate.


I reckon you would do well to learn about CSS, and some colour theory and typography. TBH the lack of hours you put into these sites really shows. Your pages look ok if my browser is maximised, but if I make the window smaller it all goes to hell. Lots of potential though. Where are the sites that you said you would give 9/10 to though?

turgon

Ok tbh Web Expert I dont think you deserve all of the criticism thats being dished out. The sites arent awful, and they look to me very much what sites like that usually look like.

However, Im not saying there perfect. Not to be arrogant or anything, but I would advise you learn css far more throughly (www.yourhtmlsource.com/css/ is where I learned). Sorry now if im going over my head (Im young enough, and dont have professional experience: Im talking as an amateur but I fully use valid xhtml and css) and sound like Im lecturing, but If you can fully implement css into your site you can seriously cut down on the sizes of pages and produce more harmonious sites.

One more point: very important to test your sites in different internet browsers. The numbers using Firefox are (thankfully) on the rise.

WebExpert

turgon wrote: »

Ok tbh Web Expert I dont think you deserve all of the criticism thats being dished out. The sites arent awful, and they look to me very much what sites like that usually look like.

However, Im not saying there perfect. Not to be arrogant or anything, but I would advise you learn css far more throughly (www.yourhtmlsource.com/css/ is where I learned). Sorry now if im going over my head (Im young enough, and dont have professional experience: Im talking as an amateur but I fully use valid xhtml and css) and sound like Im lecturing, but If you can fully implement css into your site you can seriously cut down on the sizes of pages and produce more harmonious sites.

One more point: very important to test your sites in different internet browsers. The numbers using Firefox are (thankfully) on the rise.

Thanks.

Whilist I accept the critism on here I do think that there was a purpose in it in that web deisgners are very fearful of low cost web design in Ireland. There is a competitive edge to the nature of the replies.

Out of this thread and having seeing my "portfolio" 2 web design companies have shown an initial interest in doing business by contacting me via PM. Therefore, I must be doing something right.

I know I can improve much more but my prices will remain at €350 for a full static website. I think this is both fair and that my work is worth this amount.

I have just started my own website and I will post a link tomorrow when its finished.

Thanks for all the feedback, both positive and negative.

heggie

i dont think that reply is fair. you came on here stating you are a **** hot developer/designer and have since learned that is far from the truth. There are SO many cowboys (of which you are one at the moment if you are selling those 'websites'). You've been offered advice on how to improve, and create a quality product, but retort thinking that your undercutting a professional service - you're not. Some of your clients sooner or later will want a more professional solution, and it'll be 350 wasted.

smemon

I agree with most of what's being said...

On futumeter i think there's too many images and i don't think the colour scheme matches personally.. red/white and that awful blue on the background just hurts my eyes.

Also the diagram beside the header is just too busy...

But the logo / nav text etc... looks pretty good and for €350, i'm sure the client is happy and at the end of the day i'm sure the client doesn't give a toss about standards or a few xhtml errors if everything works.

On http://www.isasensing.co.uk/, the footer doesn't render for me properly in FF3, it's almost left aligned whereas the main body is center aligned.

It's also a bit too eye burning for me but again, if mr client is happy with it and doesn't care about colours and what not, then you can erase this post from your memory

Having said all that, if i were designing/developing a site myself for someone and getting paid, i'd feel guilty handing it over not validating. I'd also SEO it and do basic things like re-direct the non www to www etc... But that's just me trying to do everything i can for the client when in reality i shouldn't for the cash being paid - like i said i doubt the client cares or even notices.

WebExpert

heggie wrote: »

i dont think that reply is fair. you came on here stating you are a **** hot developer/designer and have since learned that is far from the truth. There are SO many cowboys (of which you are one at the moment if you are selling those 'websites'). You've been offered advice on how to improve, and create a quality product, but retort thinking that your undercutting a professional service - you're not. Some of your clients sooner or later will want a more professional solution, and it'll be 350 wasted.

The clients were extremely happy. The one in Galway is doing really well, told me that they got many business inquiries through their site. Im not a cowboy, my website designs are good according to the clients.

The XHTML validation is only a requirement for public bodies as far as I know?

heggie

what? quality should be a requirement. I'm not a car mechanic, so if someone sold me a lemon I wouldn't know unless I see immediete problems with the car. It is irresponsible to be selling such a service imo, it's a bad product end of. You need to ask your self, do you really want to do this as a career? if you do then I suggest taking some of the advice here, educate and improve yourself and be proud of the work you do

Sully

heggie wrote: »

i dont think that reply is fair. you came on here stating you are a **** hot developer/designer and have since learned that is far from the truth. There are SO many cowboys (of which you are one at the moment if you are selling those 'websites'). You've been offered advice on how to improve, and create a quality product, but retort thinking that your undercutting a professional service - you're not. Some of your clients sooner or later will want a more professional solution, and it'll be 350 wasted.

To be fair, while I agree with some of what your saying - its up to the client at the end of the day to look over a portfolio and see for themselves. Iv met plenty of businesses who pick either very expensive designers who have no variation in their design or designers who are simply awful.

I think all clients should look over the portfolio of the designer, see if its something they like (the quality of the design) and if so - negotiate a price with them.

A lot of people think with their money, and not with their head I wouldn't like the quality shown by the OP and he is nowhere near the "hot stuff". But for 300euro, I can see why people picked him.

Sully

WebExpert wrote: »

The XHTML validation is only a requirement for public bodies as far as I know?

Nope. Your website should always validate. Might not be possible to get it 100% perfect, but you should try your best. The same applies to accessibility guidelines.