Alcohol Bill 2008 Re: Opening Hours (merged)

Terry

raido9 wrote: »

Insert my dick into your mothers mouth!

Hows that for humour.


Check and indeed mate. :pac:

Next one gets you banned.

I've got the power (to be sung).

Neamhshuntasach

Close down fast food places before nightclubs finish. Most fights tend to revolve around people hanging around town for an hour getting something to eat. Then have to stand in a taxi queue when they are starting to get groggy and are more liable to be angry and lash out at someone for ridiculous reasons. I go out into town around 3 times a week most weeks to late bars/night clubs and i haven't seen a fight in God knows how long in a night club or even outside one. I see more fights outside local pubs in suburbs than i do in town.

Terry

Neamhshuntasach wrote: »

Close down fast food places before nightclubs finish. Most fights tend to revolve around people hanging around town for an hour getting something to eat. Then have to stand in a taxi queue when they are starting to get groggy and are more liable to be angry and lash out at someone for ridiculous reasons. I go out into town around 3 times a week most weeks to late bars/night clubs and i haven't seen a fight in God knows how long in a night club or even outside one. I see more fights outside local pubs in suburbs than i do in town.

That has been proposed many times here in Leixlip.

The thing is, people will fight if they want to fight.
Be it in the chipper or the taxi rank or on the street or outside the nightclub.

humanji

Kiith wrote: »

Bad idea in my opinion. I also work shift, and think the Sunday thing is a terrible idea.

You want to get rid of Sundays? But that's when I do most of my sleeping.

The Artist

quote=Terry;56280953@
Plenty of people in Leixlip work shifts in Intel and HP (something like 6,000 employees between them) , so there is always a good crowd.

Crikey thats alot.
I suppose its pay day on thursday for the people in Lexip helps the trade on thursdays.
From where i live not a soul in the pubs on a thursdays but busy in the weekends.

Also, it's €3 a drink in the local hole on Thursdays.

Thats good,wish it is the same here,cheapest €5.10!

Terry

Firstly, most of the pubs are empty during the week.
The only one doing good business is my local.

Secondly, it's €10 into the nightclub, so you need to be drinking quite a bit in order to make it economically viable for you.
Thirdly, their pints taste like piss, so you have to drink bottles.

Peared

A good ole internet petition should sort the whole thing out to everybodys satisfaction.

stovelid

So everyone is going to converge and kick each others heads in, an hour earlier.

Nice one.

Phier

Peared wrote: »

A good ole internet petition should sort the whole thing out to everybodys satisfaction.

Probably not, but there may be a public protest coming up, also i'd urge any late bar/nightclub owners reading to get flyers printed up about the survey and the alcohol bill on their site & have them in their clubs come this weekend, speak to GUTN and their TDs (links on 1st page) and try to get media awareness any way they can think of.

jester77

kowloon wrote: »

<Something to do with Hitler and Nazis>

hmm, maybe it should be <Something to do with Cowen and Liberal Democrats>

Over here there's no nanny state and we can drink when we want

RandolphEsq

It is not the best for people to rely on the ina or whatever they call themselves in order to get later opening hours. Those are the guys that are only interested in getting more money. The do not care if you drink too much, get into a fight when you leave, lose your friends, have a good time etc. All they want is longer opening hours because the people want it. Supply & demand.
Do not show your support in the inia, they are only a load of tossers and don't care about the people themselves. Do your own campaigning and make your own voice heard yourself

RealEstateKing

will work until you can convince the Irish people that getting smashed out of your head isn't the pinnacle of human experience.

In countries with a more mature attitude to alcohol, this type of thing isn't an issue. The Irish, as only partially developed human beings, need to get lagered up to feel whole/talk to the opposite sex/dance/socialise/get laid.

In other more mentally healthy countries this is not the case. People might drink a few beers, they might not.

What we need to ask is how we get to where they are at? Then none of this would be an issue and clubs could stay open till whenever they want.

stovelid

RealEstateKing wrote: »

that getting smashed out of your head isn't the pinnacle of human experience.

It is.

RealEstateKing

alcohol is about 3% fun and 97% unwelcome side effects - slobbery speech, feeling like death the next day, sentimentality, aggresiveness, pissing like a fire engine, bad breath, watery eyes, being really annoying, being a bore for hours without realising it.

And all for less euphoria than you'd get from a good shag.

**** that.

Duggy747

RealEstateKing wrote: »

alcohol is about 3% fun and 97% unwelcome side effects - slobbery speech, feeling like death the next day, sentimentality, aggresiveness, pissing like a fire engine, bad breath, watery eyes, being really annoying, being a bore for hours without realising it.

And all for less euphoria than you'd get from a good shag.

**** that.

Can't handle your pints, eh? :pac:

I'm used to the nite-clubs on the west closing at 2:30 so this doesn't bother me too much. I don't agree with the Sunday closing time of 1, though. But then again, I'd probably be holed up in me local for a late bar rather than be in a nite-club on a Sunday.

RealEstateKing

Can't handle your pints, eh? :pac:

And is if in answer to my prayers, in comes the perfect example of the juvenile attitude I described.

"I can handle my pints" - there's nothing more or less macho about this than there is about being able to eat 10 cheeseburgers in a row (though the losers at BGRH might disagree) .

That's exactly kind of cultural conditioning Im talking about.

faceman

I dont expect that people would stay out any later if we had 24 hour opening, however irish mindset tells us we must protest being oppressed!

I could do a rant about responsible drinking but im not in the mood.

Instead i will be pro 24 hour and point out that not everyone who works in ireland works 9-5 therefore pub opening hours are not always convenient.

AARRRGH

Unfortunately Ireland is full of scum who don't understand the concept of responsibility. The Government trusted these people to not get totally drunk and cause trouble, but it hasn't worked.

I know the average boards.ie user probably has respect for their surroundings, but quite a lot of Irish people don't.

The 24 hour drinking in the UK has been quite problematic, and there are calls to scrap it.

I hate that it has come to this, but it seems the scum have forced this upon us.

Terry

RealEstateKing wrote: »

alcohol is about 3% fun and 97% unwelcome side effects - slobbery speech, feeling like death the next day, sentimentality, aggresiveness, pissing like a fire engine, bad breath, watery eyes, being really annoying, being a bore for hours without realising it.

And all for less euphoria than you'd get from a good shag.

**** that.

You're just not doing it right.

AARRRGH

Terry wrote: »

You're just not doing it right.

I agree. Alcohol can be great fun.

Hangovers can nearly be avoided with a big feed and lots of water before a long sleep.

raido9

Terry wrote: »

RealEstateKing wrote: »

alcohol is about 3% fun and 97% unwelcome side effects - slobbery speech, feeling like death the next day, sentimentality, aggresiveness, pissing like a fire engine, bad breath, watery eyes, being really annoying, being a bore for hours without realising it.

And all for less euphoria than you'd get from a good shag.

**** that.

You're just not doing it right.

+1

Duggy747

RealEstateKing wrote: »

And is if in answer to my prayers, in comes the perfect example of the juvenile attitude I described.

"I can handle my pints" - there's nothing more or less macho about this than there is about being able to eat 10 cheeseburgers in a row (though the losers at BGRH might disagree) .

That's exactly kind of cultural conditioning Im talking about.

Buddy, stop sucking on the lemon and put it down, your lack of humour is quite disturbing. I'm glad your moral fibre is keeping the civilised part of Ireland glued together while the rest of us yokels are rolling around in our own filth.

You call my attitude juvenile yet you described in your post that alcohol is 3% fun, feeling like death the next morning, being really annoying, etc. Sounds to me that's what you get for drinking like an idiot.

Lighten up or go away.

RealEstateKing

You call my attitude juvenile yet you described in your post that alcohol is 3% fun, feeling like death the next morning, being really annoying, etc. Sounds to me that's what you get for drinking like an idiot.

This is preciseley the point: Everybody in Ireland thinks that drink is neccessary for a sense of humour, fun, and haveing a good laugh.

It isn't. I can tell you this as somebody that doesnt drink (anymore) : Drink usually makes people loud, boring, and less funny than they are sober. In many cases it makes them irritatingly sentimental, and very often makes them lose any sense of how boring they are.

It is preciscley because of this attitude you are espousing "You must drink in order to be fun", that Ireland has these problems with alchohol.

We have linked alchohol to these pefectly normal human things (music, socialising, dancing, getting laid), because we need an excuse to get hammered. It's no more essential to life or being fun, than smoking weed or snorting coke. It's just another drug. It's only an accident of geography (other psychoactives dont grow in temperate climates), that it happens to be the one we use. Get over it.

faceman

RealEstateKing wrote: »

This is preciseley the point: Everybody in Ireland thinks that drink is neccessary for a sense of humour, fun, and haveing a good laugh.
.

I think thats a broad generalisation there

Dun laoire

They're punishing us for saying NO to Lisbon. :pac:
Like the farmer who starved his cattle because they would'nt leave the shed

Davidius

raido9 wrote: »

We saw it the first time, you've made your feelings clear. Can you not understand some people might like to be out longer. Having the choice would be good, and you know its not compulsary to stay till the end of the night, you can leave a nightclub whatever time you want.

Said it in two different threads, hence the repitition.

Also nope, can't understand it. The best hours are the ones with daylight.
Night is cold, dark and all around crappy. :pac:

RealEstateKing

I think thats a broad generalisation there

It sure is. Generalisations are neccessary any time you're talking about any phenomenon that is larger than a few people.

AARRRGH

RealEstateKing wrote: »

Drink usually makes people loud

I agree

RealEstateKing wrote: »

boring

I disagree, drinking normally makes people do things they wouldn't be brave enough to do. That's hardly boring!

RealEstateKing wrote: »

and less funny than they are sober.

I disagree, drunk people are often funnier and more fun than sober people.

Note I also don't drink (anymore).

toiletduck

Hmm with 24 hour opening we wouldn't have the inevitable rush of everyone getting home at the same time to post drunken sh!te on AH. It'd be easier on the servers.

Phier

dublindude wrote: »

The 24 hour drinking in the UK has been quite problematic, and there are calls to scrap it.

http://www.culture.gov.uk/reference_library/publications/3574.aspx

Suggests otherwise. Very few establishments have applied for the full 24-hours, and most of them are hotels from what i remember. Also, most places increased their opening hours by just one hour, roughly.

Putting the ridiculous idea of closing everywhere at the same time aside, the fundamental issue here is whether you believe that limiting the supply of something like alcohol will limit the demand. Personally i think it has the opposite affect.

AARRRGH

Phier wrote: »

http://www.culture.gov.uk/reference_library/publications/3574.aspx

Suggests otherwise. Very few establishments have applied for the full 24-hours, and most of them are hotels from what i remember. Also, most places increased their opening hours by just one hour, roughly.

I've read reports saying there are lots of problems now.

I'm too lazy to find them now (but if you really want to read them I'm sure Google will be willing to assist you.)

Phier wrote: »

the fundamental issue here is whether you believe that limiting the supply of something like alcohol will limit the demand. Personally i think it has the opposite affect.

We Irish are rebel by nature. Just look at Good Friday. The amount of boozing is ridiculous.

Saying all that, we have a huge drink problem in Ireland, and something needs to be done about it. I'm not sure if stricter opening hours are the way forward, but I'm in general in favour of doing something.

Phier

Summaries and media articles on the bill:

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/Publication%20of%20Intoxicating%20Liquor%20Bill%202008
http://www.odt.co.nz/news/politics/10014/liquor-licensing-bill-fast-tracked-parliament
http://newsweaver.ie/ipapolicybulletin/e_article001116852.cfm?x=b11,0,w

Bill explanatory memorandum:
http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/B3208D-memo-P&C.pdf/Files/B3208D-memo-P&C.pdf

The bill itself:
http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/bills/2008/3208/B3208D.pdf

email addresses for the Committee dealing with the bill.

[email]brian.oshea[at]oireachtas.ie[/email], [email]pat.rabbitte[at]oireachtas.ie[/email], [email]charles.flanagan[at]oir.ie[/email], [email]jdeenihan[at]eircom.net[/email], [email]dinny.mcginley[at]finegael.ie[/email], [email]dnaughten[at]finegael.ie[/email], [email]darragh.obrien[at]oireachtas.ie[/email], [email]thomas.byrne[at]oireachtas.ie[/email], [email]sean.connick[at]oireachtas.ie[/email], [email]Brendan.kenneally[at]oireachtas.ie[/email], [email]noel.treacy[at]oireachtas.ie[/email]

Genghiz Cohen

Are you sure putting the email addresses up like that is a good idea, considering spambots and stuff like that.

Phier

Good call.

Edited.

MikeHoncho

To be honest I dont mind them closing the bar earlier just dont particularly think that should be linked to the actual closing of the venue. Nightclubs should be able to go on not serving booze for as long as they want. Just serving juices, soft drinks and water while the music keeps playing. That would not only mean stagered closing times but also that people had actually sobered up a bit before they leave.

AARRRGH

MikeHoncho wrote: »

To be honest I dont mind them closing the bar earlier just dont particularly think that should be linked to the actual closing of the venue. Nightclubs should be able to go on not serving booze for as long as they want. Just serving juices, soft drinks and water while the music keeps playing. That would not only mean stagered closing times but also that people had actually sobered up a bit before they leave.

That's a pretty good idea actually.

Although the Gardai probably wouldn't trust the publicians.

lynchie

Where exactly in the bill above does it amend the closing hours for pubs etc.. I can see where they have introduced restrictions for off-license sales, but I cant see where they change them for events / night clubs etc..

kowloon

RealEstateKing wrote: »

will work until you can convince the Irish people that getting smashed out of your head isn't the pinnacle of human experience.

In countries with a more mature attitude to alcohol, this type of thing isn't an issue. The Irish, as only partially developed human beings, need to get lagered up to feel whole/talk to the opposite sex/dance/socialise/get laid.

I get so little as it is, get rid of the drink and I may as well use my mickey as a doorstop!

astraboy

RealEstateKing wrote: »

This is preciseley the point: Everybody in Ireland thinks that drink is neccessary for a sense of humour, fun, and haveing a good laugh.

It isn't. I can tell you this as somebody that doesnt drink (anymore) : Drink usually makes people loud, boring, and less funny than they are sober. In many cases it makes them irritatingly sentimental, and very often makes them lose any sense of how boring they are.

It is preciscley because of this attitude you are espousing "You must drink in order to be fun", that Ireland has these problems with alchohol.

We have linked alchohol to these pefectly normal human things (music, socialising, dancing, getting laid), because we need an excuse to get hammered. It's no more essential to life or being fun, than smoking weed or snorting coke. It's just another drug. It's only an accident of geography (other psychoactives dont grow in temperate climates), that it happens to be the one we use. Get over it.

O FFS. Yes many Irish people drink far too much, but go to many other countries and you will see the same. Friday nights in Boston will see plenty of pissed people with too much on board, and they are not all Irish! I enjoy a drink but frankly hate the need to get obliterated attitide. I like to have a few beers and enjoy myself, and being told to pack off home at 2am seems to smack of being treated like a child being told to go to bed. Some nights I go home early, others I just want to keep on going and if the music plays until 3am I would stay.

Dealing with the excessive consumption of alchol in Ireland requires a cultural shift, telling us all to bugger off home and shutting the bar at 2am means many more rounds of shots ordered at 1.30am as people try and get the most out of a short night. Allowing people to pace themselves, and wow, maybe go to a night club to listen to a decent DJ until 3am might not be a bad idea.

Again however, the gombeen men in the dail know whats best for me so I'd better listen.......:rolleyes:

JangoFett

Phier wrote: »

From the Clubbing forum, i thought this post deserved more eyes on it.




See http://www.giveusthenight.org for more information on what you can do/who you can contact.

Here's a list of FF TDs by constituency:

http://www.fiannafail.ie/tds.php

Usually you make an appointment through their website to talk to them
at their clinic, face-to-face is always better than an email.

Here's a recent report on the affects of the UKs 24-hour licensing,
the full 24-hours are used by very few premises and the roughly extra
hour opening time most places availed of hasn't affected public order
offenses at all. Probably because different places close at different
times unlike the ridiculous one time for all establishments our
government are proposing.

http://www.culture.gov.uk/reference_library/publications/3574.aspx

Business people like pretty graphs and stats, so maybe this will help
in drawing up a comparison, considering we have a similar drinking
culture to the english.

If the government bring it in...they bring it in. Most clubs I go to close at 2.30-3.00 anyway so makes no big difference, make sure your house has booze and have a session!!

Phier

I shouldn't have to though, they're also reducing off-license opening hours to 10pm if i remember, and if you know a gaff that has international acts playing until the wee hours i'd like to know about it.

I'm told this summary is the info given to the gardai:

Sale of alcohol

*Wine off-licences, which may be obtained at present directly from the Revenue Commissioners, will in future require a District Court certificate.

*The grounds on which objection may be made to the grant of a District Court certificate for any off-licence will be extended to include consideration of the needs of the neighbourhood and the adequacy of the existing number of off-licences in the area.

*Off-sales of alcohol will be permitted only between 10.30 a.m. and 10.00 p.m. (12.30 p.m. to 10.00 p.m. on Sundays).

*Provisions permitting early morning opening of public houses in the vicinity of fairs and markets will be repealed.

*In future, alcohol products must be displayed and sold in supermarkets, convenience stores, etc. in a specified area which is structurally separated from the rest of the premises or, where such separation is not possible, alcohol products must be displayed and sold from behind a counter (this will not affect specialist off-licences or duty free shops).

*Test purchasing of alcohol products will be permitted and it will apply both to on-licences and off-licences; appropriate safeguards for the protection of the young people concerned will be required.

Extended opening hours

*The public order ground on which the Gardai may object to the grant of a special exemption order by the District Court, or its duration, is being strengthened.

*In future, the District Court may not grant any such order unless the premises concerned comply fully with fire safety standards.

*A new statutory requirement to have a CCTV system in place in premises availing of special exemption orders for events to which the public are admitted are taking place, i.e. nightclubs and late bars, is being
introduced.

*In future, premises with theatre licences may only remain open after normal closing times if a special exemption order has been obtained from the District Court.

Public order

*New powers will permit a member of the Garda SÃ*ochána to seize any bottle or container which is in the possession of a person who appears to be under the age of 18 and which the member suspects, with reasonable cause, contains alcohol which has been consumed, is being consumed, or intended to be consumed, by a person under 18 years in a place other than a place used as a private dwelling.

*New powers will permit the seizure of bottles and containers containing alcohol where there is a reasonable apprehension of public disorder and which may be used to require a person to leave the place
concerned in a peaceable and orderly manner. Alcohol promotions and discount sales

The Bill provides for the making of detailed regulations in future to prohibit or restrict advertising or promoting the sale or supply of alcohol at a reduced price or free of charge on the purchase of any quantity of intoxicating liquor or of any other product or service. Regulations may also be made which will prohibit events or activities which are intended or likely to encourage excessive consumption of alcohol.

Penalties and sanctions

Certain fines in the Licensing Acts 1833 to 2004 and fines under the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994 are being increased (Schedules 1 and 2). In addition, a minimum closure period of two days will apply in the case of convictions for certain offences under the Licensing Acts.

RealEstateKing

O FFS. Yes many Irish people drink far too much, but go to many other countries and you will see the same. Friday nights in Boston will see plenty of pissed people with too much on board, and they are not all Irish! I enjoy a drink but frankly hate the need to get obliterated attitide. I like to have a few beers and enjoy myself, and being told to pack off home at 2am seems to smack of being treated like a child being told to go to bed. Some nights I go home early, others I just want to keep on going and if the music plays until 3am I would stay.

Dealing with the excessive consumption of alchol in Ireland requires a cultural shift, telling us all to bugger off home and shutting the bar at 2am means many more rounds of shots ordered at 1.30am as people try and get the most out of a short night. Allowing people to pace themselves, and wow, maybe go to a night club to listen to a decent DJ until 3am might not be a bad idea.

Again however, the gombeen men in the dail know whats best for me so I'd better listen.......

I agree, wholeheartedly. These proposals are really stupid: If any thing they perpetuate the Irish people's childish attitude to alcohol. It's putting a fence around alcohol that makes it seem like the 'be all and end all' to Irish people.

One of the reasons why the French, for example, dont hold alcohol in such high esteem as us Irish, is because from the age of about 12 most of them are drinking wine regularly with their parents, just a glass or two, no big deal.

For us, there's no booze at all until you start knacker-drinking at 14 or whatever - it becomes associated with rebellion and freedom and most Irish people are under it's influence for most of the most important 'rites of passage' in their lives: From first kiss, to first shag, to first time at a party: As a result it becomes far more ingrained in us than for other people. Change that, and you'd be on to something.

pickarooney

RealEstateKing wrote: »

I can tell you this as somebody that doesnt drink (anymore) : Drink usually makes people loud, boring, and less funny than they are sober. In many cases it makes them irritatingly sentimental, and very often makes them lose any sense of how boring they are.

I take it you're hammered right now then?

RealEstateKing

Yawn. Drinking is like really cool and it like makes you into like Keith Richards and stuff, could you be any more exactly like everybody else?

pickarooney

RealEstateKing wrote: »

Yawn. Drinking is like really cool and it like makes you into like Keith Richards and stuff, could you be any more exactly like everybody else?

Not any more than not drinking turns you into Cliff Richard. G'wan have an oul' beer. T'won't kill you.

RealEstateKing

far more than I care to remember. Its simply the attitude that not drinking means you're not fun that bothers me.

Just cause alcohol happens to be the drug that you use to accompany fun, doesnt mean there's an essential connection between the two. You need booze to have fun, I dont.

Its no different to some gurning trance monkey telling you you havent heard music till you've been listening to house while out of your face on Disco Burgers: "Its ****in' deadly man, the bass drum goes whoomp-whoomp-whoomp, and den it stops and goes whoomp-whoomp-whoomp again, magic."

And you think: Well I actually like to enjoy good music, not take pills to make crap music seem good. No different with booze, just that booze is a more mainstream version of the same thing.

astraboy

RealEstateKing wrote: »

I agree, wholeheartedly. These proposals are really stupid: If any thing they perpetuate the Irish people's childish attitude to alcohol. It's putting a fence around alcohol that makes it seem like the 'be all and end all' to Irish people.

One of the reasons why the French, for example, dont hold alcohol in such high esteem as us Irish, is because from the age of about 12 most of them are drinking wine regularly with their parents, just a glass or two, no big deal.

For us, there's no booze at all until you start knacker-drinking at 14 or whatever - it becomes associated with rebellion and freedom and most Irish people are under it's influence for most of the most important 'rites of passage' in their lives: From first kiss, to first shag, to first time at a party: As a result it becomes far more ingrained in us than for other people. Change that, and you'd be on to something.

Yep, I would like to see a few of those 'cafe-bars' proposed a few years ago, where you can sit outside on a footpath and enjoy a drink or two, not paying 15E into a club where the objective is to down as many shots as possible. So a definate change in attitude is needed. From my experience in the US, where the drinking age is 21, all it does is help to criminalize young people and forcing the drinking into house parties etc, people find a way around it, and at the end of the day people decide themselves how much and what they drink.

Frankly the closing of off licenses at 10pm is the nanny state at is worst, it means if I wish to get a DVD and bottle of wine at 11pm with my girlfriend then I can't, its essentially treating me like a child, something that I resent.

In fact longer opening hours in clubs would mean people spread their drinking over a longer period and may even drink less as they have to last a longer night. All in all I think this is a step backwards.

How about actively educating kids about alcohol at an early age, and also charging people that end up in A+E for drink related injuries etc. All this would help the attitude problem. Telling us we are bold boys and can't stay up past 2.30am smacks of the small minded attitude that seems prevalent in the dail at the moment.

faceman

astraboy wrote: »

Yep, I would like to see a few of those 'cafe-bars' proposed a few years ago, where you can sit outside on a footpath and enjoy a drink or two, not paying 15E into a club where the objective is to down as many shots as possible. So a definate change in attitude is needed. From my experience in the US, where the drinking age is 21, all it does is help to criminalize young people and forcing the drinking into house parties etc, people find a way around it, and at the end of the day people decide themselves how much and what they drink.

Im a drinker myself but i dont really agree with you here. Given irish 'culture', i dont see how introducing cafe bars is going to stem alcohol abuse or alcohol fuelled offenses/crimes. They cafe bars will still be serving alcohol.

Re the US, Ireland has a lower drinking age and longer opening hours than there. Yet alcohol hasnt dominated social culture in the US in the way it has here.

RealEstateKing wrote: »

One of the reasons why the French, for example, dont hold alcohol in such high esteem as us Irish, is because from the age of about 12 most of them are drinking wine regularly with their parents, just a glass or two, no big deal.

I dont agree. Most of the french people i know in Ireland and in France wouldn't agree with this statement either.

I dont really see how giving alcohol to kids at 12 years of age would teach kids not to abuse alcohol. Proper education that connects with younger generations is key.

Phier

Today FM, now.

shnaek

We are the rednecks of Europe. This is just another reason to consider leaving the country for the free thinking open minded pastures of the continent. :rolleyes: