Which way will you vote (if at all)

bogwalrus

Scofflaw wrote: »

Maybe, maybe not. I voted No first time at Nice, because the government really was taking the piss. They haven't been great this time either, but they are streets ahead of where they were on Nice I. As far as I recall, the booklet they sent out basically said "this is a very complicated document, and you should just vote Yes because you've no chance of understanding it." Nor was there anything like the material available - no guides, no analyses, next to nothing.

I appreciate this will start a load of people jumping up and down telling me that it's exactly the same this time, but it ain't. Nice I was dreadful. Nice 2 was better, but still nothing like this one - there's a positive avalanche of information, to the point where people are suffering overload rather than anything else.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I'm being positive and believing certain excuses:o Besides the universe always listens to me. If i truly believe and want something i will get it right smack in the face. thats how ff got elected. There was no real good alternative though.

Bad thing is the universe always hides trojans in what it gives me (like ff).........ive been up too long.nite

BrianD

Personally, I'ma reluctant YES. Reluctant as I don't think I should have to vote on this treaty. It should be passed into law in the Dail and that's that.

We elected a Dail and a Government who negotiate treaties and pass laws on our behalf. Where were the Shinners and Libertas when the original negotiations were underway? What will the mandate be if the No vote prevails and what exactly will be renegotiated? What exactly will be changed if we can go back for another bite? Nothing.

If 160 out of 166 dail deputies support the treaty how do the shinners propose mandating the government to negotiate? Or do we just accept the mandate from private interests? The no vote give out about faceless bureaucrats in Brussels but are happy to accept unelected private interests?

johnnyq

BrianD wrote: »

Personally, I'ma reluctant YES. Reluctant as I don't think I should have to vote on this treaty. It should be passed into law in the Dail and that's that.
?

It's funny actually I was discussing things with djp..something can't remember his name and when I mentioned about how we look to our politicians for advice, I was politely laughed out of it. Yet other yes voters want the decision to be only in the hands of those politicians. It just goes to show the diverse range of opinions within both camps.

BrianD

johnnyq wrote: »

It's funny actually I was discussing things with djp..something can't remember his name and when I mentioned about how we look to our politicians for advice, I was politely laughed out of it. Yet other yes voters want the decision to be only in the hands of those politicians. It just goes to show the diverse range of opinions within both camps.

What makes me laugh if that if the NO camp have a problem with the Lisbon Treaty then it's a little bit late in the day to start arguing about it now. Many of the issues - and most of the No rationale is based on supposition on what might happen in theory - weren't created with the Lisbon treaty they started out a long time ago. Where were you then?

Then there's the neutrality joke. We're neutral in name only. Let's be honest with ourselves. We never joined NATO because it would be bizarre to be in a military pact with the UK with the situation in the North. We were quite happy to have NATO effectively defend Ireland during the cold war. Waving the neutral flag safe in the knowledge that NATO would never allow Ireland to be attacked.

As an EU citizen I was disgusted to see the events of the Balkans during the 1990s - ethnic cleansing, concentraion camps etc within the borders of Europe. The EU sat idely by and it was really the AMericans who sorted things out. I would be quite happy to have Ireland in a standing EU force to intervene if such barbarity was ever to land on our doorstep again.

Kovik

This one's quite easy.

Who's campaigning for a yes vote?

Every single credible politician in the country who stand to gain nothing at all from the vote going either way.

Who's campaigning for a no vote?

Sinn Féin and the chief executive of a US Defense contractor that spent years exploiting Eastern European industries after the fall of the USSR.

You shouldn't even have to look at the treaty to tell which way to cast your ballot.

johnnyq

Kovik wrote: »

This one's quite easy.

Who's campaigning for a yes vote?

Every single credible politician in the country who stand to gain nothing at all from the vote going either way.

Who's campaigning for a no vote?

Sinn Féin and the chief executive of a US Defense contractor that spent years exploiting Eastern European industries after the fall of the USSR.

You shouldn't even have to look at the treaty to tell which way to cast your ballot.

This is exactly the point I've been making on the poster thread. If people actually read the facts rather than choosing between the fire and the frying pan of political parties, we might actually get a proper informed vote.

It's still not too late. Go to the neutral www.lisbontreaty2008.ie website and it's all there on one page. If you're happy vote yes if not vote no. Please don't be chosing between FF and Sinn Fein to make your decisions.

dc69

Kovik wrote: »

This one's quite easy.

Who's campaigning for a yes vote?

Every single credible politician in the country who stand to gain nothing at all from the vote going either way.

Who's campaigning for a no vote?

Sinn Féin and the chief executive of a US Defense contractor that spent years exploiting Eastern European industries after the fall of the USSR.

You shouldn't even have to look at the treaty to tell which way to cast your ballot.

Thats absolute ****,the "credible" politicians are voting yes because they dont want to be embaresed.Why not actually read it before you discredite sinn fein for advising no.(i dont vote sinn fein)

We gain nothing by voting yes and lose alot.

Kovik

I was being facetious in my post.

On the issues, a Yes from me is a certainty. This is an administrative reform treaty that trends the EU toward proportional representation, a move I welcome. There is no impact on Irish neutrality, economic policy or social issues like abortion (which bizarrely I saw raised on Questions and Answers this week).

I have yet to hear a negative suggestion from the No campaign that isn't either speculative conspiracy theory or derived from already existing EU policies.

Kovik

johnnyq wrote: »

This is exactly the point I've been making on the poster thread. If people actually read the facts rather than choosing between the fire and the frying pan of political parties, we might actually get a proper informed vote.

There is consensus among 96% of the Dáil that this is a good move. It's only Sinn Féin launching an absurd No campaign (like they have always done with regards Europe).

If there's a "problem" at all (from a Yes perspective) it's that people aren't voting by partisan affiliation, but reacting to scare tactics and outright deceit.

johnnyq

Kovik wrote: »

There is consensus among 96% of the Dáil that this is a good move. It's only Sinn Féin launching an absurd No campaign (like they have always done with regards Europe).

If there's a "problem" at all (from a Yes perspective) it's that people aren't voting by partisan affiliation, but reacting to scare tactics and outright deceit.

All I hope is that people are informed, do not just go on what the politicians say, don't believe the threats and actually think about their vision of a better europe and whether it is being delivered by this treaty.

Duffman

I'll be voting yes because I have no strong desire to harm this country.

Call Me Jimmy

dc69 wrote: »

We gain nothing by voting yes and lose alot.

Relative to all the other countries I don't see that we lose much at all and still have more than we should have. Of course we have to compromise like everyone else (spain loses 2!! Comissioners as the guy on prime time said) but they are ok with it because they see the broader picture. I think we do gain a more democratic europe, just like all the other states. But I'm sure as you read that you'll dismiss me as some sort of FF phallus-masseur

johnnyq

Duffman wrote: »

I'll be voting yes because I have no strong desire to harm this country.

I'm voting no for the same reason.

Call Me Jimmy

johnnyq wrote: »

I'm voting no for the same reason.

I think that's the nature of voting different ways though lads!

Mr.Nice Guy

johnnyq wrote: »

I'm voting no for the same reason.

Ditto. A Yes vote would be a disaster for small nations like ourselves. Greater efficiency is all well and good but not at the expense of Ireland's sovereignty.

DOCARCH

Kovik wrote: »

This one's quite easy.

Who's campaigning for a yes vote?

Every single credible politician in the country who stand to gain nothing at all from the vote going either way.

If you are FF and you don't toe the party line, you're out. Kenny is on the same side of the EU 'house' as, and I beleive very pally with, Angela Merkel (in some respects the mastermind if this Treaty) and I believe that Labour are really only half-heartedly behind the Treaty (with government aspirations and I'm sure they have not impressed many of their memebers!)

My very simplistic view of this is the Trearty is that it is good for Europe as whole (probably more so if you are France and Germany), not so good for Ireland. Therefore if I, as an Irish person, am being asked to vote on it, I think the obvious choice is NO.

Read Shane Ross's view which I think personally is an intelegent view (from a credible politician): http://www.shane-ross.ie/archives/325/vote-no-to-giscards-lisbon-swindle/

As Shane Ross says, Cowen and Kenny are eurojunkies! I would agree. They will be looked after!!!

Just to add:
Our esteemed leader Mr. Cowen has not read the Treaty,
Our EU Commissioner says you are an idiot if you try to read it,
and
The head of the Referendum Commission admits he can't understand it!

I just don't understand how somebody could through caution to the wind and vote YES ???

Kovik

johnnyq wrote: »

All I hope is that people are informed, do not just go on what the politicians say, don't believe the threats and actually think about their vision of a better europe and whether it is being delivered by this treaty.

I just hope people treat the astonishingly stupid assertions being made by Libertas and Sinn Féin as astonishingly stupid and aren't scared into a No vote.

marksquirt

zig wrote: »

so you and your colleagues are taking out your bitterness of politians on the rest of the country and helping them get denied the chance of a prosperace future.

Actually I never said what way I was going to vote and I would not presume about the way others would vote despite our discussions. It's called the Freedom to Vote and the Freedom of Speech both of which I'm entitled to. I simply made an observation from talks in work

Mr.Nice Guy

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Ditto. A Yes vote would be a disaster for small nations like ourselves. Greater efficiency is all well and good but not at the expense of Ireland's sovereignty.

Lol

I'll join you in the Tent in greenham common.
Bring a flask of tea and sandwiches..
I met my first real life no voter yesterday who is now voting yes.I discovered after a very short time talking to him that he was labouring under a lot of mis information.

Gillie

I'm still not sure! I was on my way to the polling station this morning but decided against it as I haven't made up my mind. I just wonder about the reasons being given to vote no. A lot of them seem mis-guided or just untrue!

I'm gonna have to read a bit more before I head to the polling station later today!

edanto

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

at the expense of Ireland's sovereignty.

Specifically, how is Ireland's sovereignty affected by this treaty? If it is in relation to the changing voting procedures then can you explain why we should be a special case compared to the other countries? What exactly is unfair about the new procedures?

If it is in relation to the increased number of policy areas that are coming under EU remit, can you please explain how that is a bad thing, since our experience to date has been almost exclusively good?

cornbb

Gillie wrote: »

I'm still not sure! I was on my way to the polling station this morning but decided against it as I haven't made up my mind. I just wonder about the reasons being given to vote no. A lot of them seem mis-guided or just untrue!

I'm gonna have to read a bit more before I head to the polling station later today!

Check the links in my sig, one is the Referendum Commissioner's website on the treaty (a neutral body) and the other is a Prime Time debate on RTE, the first 5 mins or so explain the key points of the treaty pretty well.

By the way, has anyone been following the results of this poll and if so does there seem to be a trend of people voting in one or other direction?

VoidStarNull

DOCARCH wrote: »

Kovik wrote: »

This one's quite easy.
Read Shane Ross's view which I think personally is an intelegent view (from a credible politician): http://www.shane-ross.ie/archives/325/vote-no-to-giscards-lisbon-swindle/
???

Unfortunately Shane Ross does not discuss the treaty on its merits. He urges a NO vote on the basis that a sinister conspiracy of EU and Irish politicians is trying to do us all down. The same sort of paranoid, defensive arguments have been made by several other NO campaigners. What happened to the confident, out-going Ireland that we saw emerge in the 1990s?

There is no conspiracy. Europe has made it clear over many years that they are willing to work with us in a spirit of cooperation. There is no secret clause in the Lisbon treaty that others want to use to remove our independence/low tax/neutrality/virginity.

Shane Ross also opposed the introduction of the Euro,saying it would be a disaster.
Speaks for itself really.

trotter_inc

I'm going to vote YES because we've benefited so much from being in the EU since we joined, with the way the economy is going we need the foreign investment we can get. The No campaigners are making the whole treaty seem like a government conspiracy, like we're going to be screwed if we vote Yes.

A lot of people I know are saying that they are going to vote No because the government have not informed us properly. It's a complicated treaty but there is plenty of simple explanations on the Lisbon Treaty website, some people are just too lazy to use some initiative and learn about it properly themselves.

That's my two cents anyway

trotter_inc

Gillie wrote: »

I'm still not sure! I was on my way to the polling station this morning but decided against it as I haven't made up my mind. I just wonder about the reasons being given to vote no. A lot of them seem mis-guided or just untrue!

I'm gonna have to read a bit more before I head to the polling station later today!

I was in exactly the same boat as you, I drove past the polling station on my way to work but decided to wait until this afternoon. After reading a lot of articles this morning I'm a firm Yes.

The No campaigners arguments are all scare tactics which are grossly exaggerated.

ruskin

edanto wrote: »

Specifically, how is Ireland's sovereignty affected by this treaty? If it is in relation to the changing voting procedures then can you explain why we should be a special case compared to the other countries? What exactly is unfair about the new procedures?

If it is in relation to the increased number of policy areas that are coming under EU remit, can you please explain how that is a bad thing, since our experience to date has been almost exclusively good?

Why must Ireland, as a neutral country "progressively improve our military capabilities" when our health sevice, etc. is in a sham?

I am certain that our sovereignty will be affected in that if another member state is a subject of agression, we MUST make OUR military services available

cornbb

ruskin wrote: »

I am certain that our sovereignty will be affected in that if another member state is a subject of agression, we MUST make OUR military services available

Do you have any parts of the treaty or other facts to base that upon or did this certainty appear out of thin air?

faceman

ruskin wrote: »

Why must Ireland, as a neutral country "progressively improve our military capabilities" when our health sevice, etc. is in a sham?

I am certain that our sovereignty will be affected in that if another member state is a subject of agression, we MUST make OUR military services available

Thats not the case. Ireland doesnt need to improve our military capabilities as we remain a neutral country.

Why do you think our sovereignty wille be affected if for example a non EU nation launches a military attack on say Germany? The irish people will be hardly drafted to fight!

Donaldhino

I will be voting No - as I do not take kindly to threats, guilt trips or negative campaigning.

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/5304/

Our econonmy grew strong in spite of, not because of the EU. In the 80s our economy was a basket case - we do not owe the EU anything.