"GLuas" to be unveiled for Galway

Zoney

DWCommuter wrote: »

I disagree with you Zoney and I think you are being a little unfair to nostodamus.

Lets look at some facts that I witnessed at close hand.

1. Many of the non-political players in the wrc campaign were trainspotters/enthusiasts and from abroad. I know, because I met them at events.

2. Even WOT themselves, used trainspotting/enthusiast web sites to drum up support.

2. Trainspotters/enthusiasts were a central part of the Nenagh line campaign.

I say this to you devoid of delusion and with a very straight face.

My point is that I think it rather unlikely any of that in any way affected our politicians (in fact surely any "trainspotter lobby" would have been more likely to dissuade them from any action?)

Chris_533976

monument wrote: »

The walk -- while maybe not ideal -- would be comparable enough to Connolly Luas to the main Dart / Commuter platforms, or Heuston Luas to some of the platforms there.

Yeah it certainly isnt the end of the world, I've done it a few times myself connecting Citylink buses to buses in the city. Eyre square has nice wide roads around it and it would make so much more sense even to add a few hundred meters of track to bring the trams round to the bus station. It would serve different parts of Eyre Square too which would be handy for tourists. Even though the walk wouldnt be huge, if its raining (which is usually is), then it would be better to do it right from the start.

Also I've noticed that there is a stop at NUIG but no stop at UCHG. Expecting people to walk from NUIG to UCHG is a bit silly IMO, would be handy to have a stop at the UCHG gates. That hospital has a ridiculously small amount of parking, thanks to residents complaining and councillers SIDING WITH THE RESIDENTS.

DWCommuter

monument wrote: »

The walk -- while maybe not ideal -- would be comparable enough to Connolly Luas to the main Dart / Commuter platforms, or Heuston Luas to some of the platforms there.

But bare in mind that the comparable walks you talk about are all within the confines of a dedicated public transport "hub". This same argument was used with the Dublin Docklands station and the walk to the forthcoming Luas line to the Point village. It is not within the confines and more comfortable environment of a proper interchange. Look at it this way, if its pissing rain/hail or snow, then the walk in the open is hardly proper integration.

DWCommuter

Zoney wrote: »

My point is that I think it rather unlikely any of that in any way affected our politicians (in fact surely any "trainspotter lobby" would have been more likely to dissuade them from any action?)

I take your point Zoney. I have always expressed the opinion that it was a "political" decision based on renegade western politicians and their demands for the west. (Backbenchers can bring down Governments) But there was a very "noticeable" campaign from the enthusiast side that met with politicians, lobbied politicians from abroad and generally gave, what I believe was a very mickey mouse rail project, more exposure than it warranted.

If Gluas wasn't so daft and times weren't so tough, this would happen, while the capital city sunk under the duress of the car.

pointofnoreturn

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Yeah it certainly isnt the end of the world, I've done it a few times myself connecting Citylink buses to buses in the city. Eyre square has nice wide roads around it and it would make so much more sense even to add a few hundred meters of track to bring the trams round to the bus station. It would serve different parts of Eyre Square too which would be handy for tourists. Even though the walk wouldnt be huge, if its raining (which is usually is), then it would be better to do it right from the start.

Also I've noticed that there is a stop at NUIG but no stop at UCHG. Expecting people to walk from NUIG to UCHG is a bit silly IMO, would be handy to have a stop at the UCHG gates. That hospital has a ridiculously small amount of parking, thanks to residents complaining and councillers SIDING WITH THE RESIDENTS.

I've been trying to make a point too, that connecting services the most important factor to consider with the location of stops and service time sync. they do it all through out Europe, + it should go right through the hospital campus, even though NUIG would make as much as sence, less interfacing with traffic so the tram would not get held up.
Think if someone in a wheel chair has to take the train from Athenry to Galway, change on to the Tram, and get off at the Hospital. that kind of senario has to be effortless! for a commuter.

dowlingm

WARNING - major bluesky thinking/crayon drawing ahead. All of this assumes the existing Ceannt Quarter doesn't progress further.

A thought occurred to me when looking at the Live Maps overhead of the Galway station area and recalling how congested the Eyre Square area is currently. Assuming you could swing it environmentally, an infill of the southeast corner of Lough Atalia adjacent to the rail line and an extension via a new 100-120m bridge and a lake side road of about 800m of Fairgreen Road to the junction of Mellows Park and Lake Shore Drive.

Given the comparative size of the existing station I think there might be equivalent or more space available to shift at least the train station out there and ideally the buses too, with the existing rail bridge being converted to a GLUAS link to a terminus on the existing embankment to the south side of the new station. This would free up the area around the station for development in tandem with the existing adjoining enterprise parks. The rail tracks would cross a (doubled) Mellows Park bridge and rather than curving south and into the existing station would run more straight into the new platforms on the east bank.

While the new station would be further from Eyre Square - say 400-450m from front door to the SE corner, to put it in perspective that's not much further than the 250-300m from Cork bus station to Patrick's St. There might be some heritage issues to clearing out the Station complex too - I'm getting too used to Toronto planning (sure keep the facade stones of the demolished building and clad the first five stories of a 50 story glass block with them and 'twill be grand).

galwayrush

I was in Toronto recently,i wish we would apply Toronto Planning in this country.A most impressive City in every way.:cool:

dowlingm

I note that Midland Metro are dumping their 16 x AnsaldoBreda T69 70% LF trams as part of their Metro extension plan. As it stands, the trams are a bit of a dubious proposition - at least if you read the Midland Metro wiki page which seems to have been largely written by people of a jaundiced disposition.

If acquired cheaply by the GLUAS proponents it might be possible to have AB do a mid-life update on the trams to a better spec and with warranty cover, on the premise that it's not going to do the company's rep any good to have trams built in 1999 thrown on the junk heap, and at least they have seen revenue service which is more than TramPower's tram has.

Has anyone on here ever been on Midland Metro and could comment?

Sponge Bob

dowlingm wrote: »

I note that Midland Metro are dumping their 16 x AnsaldoBreda T69 70% LF trams

That wiki page is fairly glum reading , from it and not fully corroborated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midland_Metro

The revised business case claimed that the existing trams could not be used in central Birmingham streets, despite their having been custom designed for the Midland Metro project (which included Birmingham street running from its inception). The 'requirement' for new trams further inflated the BCCE cost estimate,to £120 million, or £85,000 per metre. Various reasons were given by Centro for needing new trams, including the safety of braking performance of the existing vehicles if used on the City Centre Extension. Using the hazard brake the existing vehicles need 15m to stop from 30km/h speed .

pointofnoreturn

dowlingm wrote: »

I note that Midland Metro are dumping their 16 x AnsaldoBreda T69 70% LF trams as part of their Metro extension plan. As it stands, the trams are a bit of a dubious proposition - at least if you read the Midland Metro wiki page which seems to have been largely written by people of a jaundiced disposition.

If acquired cheaply by the GLUAS proponents it might be possible to have AB do a mid-life update on the trams to a better spec and with warranty cover, on the premise that it's not going to do the company's rep any good to have trams built in 1999 thrown on the junk heap, and at least they have seen revenue service which is more than TramPower's tram has.

Has anyone on here ever been on Midland Metro and could comment?

Not a good idea, if there is one thing you don't do in the transportation industry and that is buy in someone else problems. I read briefly the description on wiki these Trams from AnsaldoBreda are know to have reliability problems and maintenance was high.
Acquiring them from Midland-Metro would mean high maintenance contracts and operational issues that just isn't feasible,

I wouldn't be in favor of TramPower's Trams either, best to stay with big names like Siemens, Bombardia, Stadler and Alstorm.

Judgement Day

I think something like this might be a better answer and more traditional - perhaps hauled by Connemara ponies?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Unj9TQwD47o

JHMEG

Okell's Ales. Yummy.

Judgement Day

JHMEG wrote: »

Okell's Ales. Yummy.

Come off it - how much have you had already - Okells is possibly the worst concoction ever brewed and its only redeeming feature is that it's cheap.

Sponge Bob

March Updates.

March 24th

http://www.galwaynews.ie/11996-light-rail-supporters-bid-bypass-city-planning

The backers of a light rail system for Galway City are exploring the possibility of whether they can bypass the local authority to obtain planning permission for a proposed GLUAS system.

Tram Power Ltd, which advises the GLUAS campaign, have lodged documents with An Bórd Pleanála and applied for a Pre-Application Consultation with the planning appeals board.

Not forgetting that the same city council unanimously support the scheme.

http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/23315

March 11th

The GLUAS group, which is proposing a light rail system for Galway city along the lines of the LUAS system in Dublin, claims it can deliver it for €250 million and within two years of construction.

However a report carried out for City Hall estimated the costs would be closer to €700 million. As a result councillors have called for an independent assessment to see what a light rail system might cost. If the figures from that study come close to the GLUAS figures, work on light rail will proceed.

Vitally for this and any other tram/ultralight rail project project UTTER clarity is needed on the following key bolded assertion.

The GLUAS team also challenged MVA’s figures, saying the costs were based on those for the LUAS in Dublin. GLUAS pointed out that LUAS costed €28 million per kilometre because the tracks had to be dug one metre into the ground and it involved dealing with gas, water, phone, and electricity cables.

The Galway system will only have to be dug a “couple of inches” into the ground and will not disturb gas, water, phone, and electricity cables, thus reducing the costs considerably. The team also added that in the current climate construction costs have also come down.

The last section of Luas that was opened cost €60m a KM, almost €100m a mile, as we know

http://www.gluas.ie/news/4/25/Update-March-17th-2010/

March 17th

8th March 2010 Council votes for GLUAS.

The City Council voted unanimously to make trams the preferred option for improving public transport. The GLUAS team made a presentation advocating trams, privately funded at no cost to the Council. They were followed by the Director of Transportation and MVA Consultants arguing in favour of busways costing the Council at least €150million. and not operating before 2020.

The Galway system will only have to be dug a “couple of inches” into the ground and will not disturb gas, water, phone, and electricity cables, thus reducing the costs considerably.

Does that mean they are going to put down pre-cast trackbed trays or something?

Chris_5339762

It means they havent got a notion what they're talking about.

Victor

Galway News wrote:

The backers of a light rail system for Galway City are exploring the possibility of whether they can bypass the local authority to obtain planning permission for a proposed GLUAS system.

Of course, only Irish Rail and the RPA or someone on the RPA's permission can apply for a railway order.

Sponge Bob

Victor wrote: »

Of course, only Irish Rail and the RPA or someone ont he RPA's behalf can apply for a railway order.

Indeed Victor. But what of a Tramway Order based on this old soup of legislation referred to in this article on the Ballinasloe and Mountbellew Steam Tramway in the 1880s

The Tramways Act 1870 The Light Railways Act 1896 and The Military Tramways Act 1887 never applied to Ireland

Anyway the bloody RPA is supposed to be abolished in favour of the Dublin Transport something or other so what about the cumulchies ???

monument

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Anyway the bloody RPA is supposed to be abolished in favour of the Dublin Transport something or other so what about the cumulchies ???

The DTA was established for a short time only to quickly become the NTA.

There's no sign that the RPA will be abolished.

Eire celticbhoy

Is the GLuas plan dead or any word on it just wondering after seen them talking about metro for Dublin on primetime there

Chris_5339762

Dead. Hopefully incredibly dead.

veryangryman

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Dead. Hopefully incredibly dead.

Doubt it completely dead. City could use something like it if it ever plans to grow

CaptainSkidmark

they could call it Cluas in cork and have a logo of a ear haha

dowlingm

I'm all in favour of transport improvements for Galway, it's a terrific town to visit but it's so bloody narrow in the central area. Ramming a tram through it seems very tricky even before you consider the money and if it wasn't wireless that would no doubt cause even more fuss as is currently going on in Dublin.

bk

Trams for Cork and Galway make little sense.

Start first by investing more in Cork and Galway bus services which are WAY behind Dublin Bus and that is saying something.

starhillroad

Bk

Start first by investing more in Cork and Galway bus services which are WAY behind Dublin Bus and that is saying something.

Common sense.

However, there is a consistent element of daydreaming with a lot of these 'proposals', which do a great deal of harm to projects that should be accorded a higher priority.

Even more pernicious, I believe that they not only do harm, they actually harm the potential of the entire network as a whole.

There is no arguing that pruning of the overall network was required in order for the remainder to survive. For example, the 1957 Beddy Report showed the pruning required. Subsequent to that, there is another report - I believe it is called Pacemaker, drawn up by Dr CS (Todd) Andrews in 1963 showing the investment required in the surviving network, with a clearly set out business plan.

It almost worked.

But back to the Galway Luas. If the bus services are poor, why provide a tram? The population densities do not justify it, its not Switzerland, and there are no 7-10 floor housing blocks which would be the minimum required to even begin justifying such a project.

The money is best invested where the most live. The Greater Dublin area.

There will - naturally be the slight resentment of exclusion west of the Shannon from a small fringe element, but the majority will understand and accept the reality. Get the buses first, and if that gets overcrowded, work on the Trams. Its a chain reaction. It makes sense.

But that process will take 30 years or more. It took Dublin 12 years between the trams being proposed to the day of opening. Even then, I'll say this.

"Luas is great, but it should have been a DART".

CIE

bk wrote: »

Trams for Cork and Galway make little sense.

Start first by investing more in Cork and Galway bus services which are WAY behind Dublin Bus and that is saying something

I'd bring back the West Cork railways if nobody's riding the buses (if they were, there'd be stronger demand for increased bus services). Yes, maybe sarcastic, but those that won't ride a bus would ride a train...

starhillroad wrote: »

"Luas is great, but it should have been a DART"

Given that Luas is such a huge victim of its own success capacity- and speed-wise, that can't be said enough. The Line B should have been a DART restoration of the entire Harcourt Street Line all the way to Shanganagh Junction, rebuilt underground from just south of Harcourt Street stopping at the GPO and then on to the Broadstone Line, most likely to Maynooth from there. Line A could have been combined with the DART Underground "Interconnector" idea, sharing the tunnel with Kildare services (making the tunnel more useful) up to Heuston and then diverging west of there...(of course, a DART line would have had to have been built either above or below grade from there too).

dowlingm

There's no point in wishing it had been a DART. The public were sick and tired of CIE and its unions at the time and I don't think there would have been support for it. The technical merits weren't really the issue so much as the RPA offering a distinct service with a different union and a no-strike contract, plus a grade separated DART metro would have required different alignments in places. If the line had been reopened to Shanganagh it would have possibly allowed for a shared yard to relieve Fairview.

I did think at one point that instead of pulling from service and extending the 30m trams that new 40m trams should have been bought with the 30xx units cascaded to a light rail project for the old Cork-Passage West line but given the bellyflop the economy took it's probably for the best that didn't happen.

CIE

dowlingm wrote: »

There's no point in wishing it had been a DART. The public were sick and tired of CIE and its unions at the time and I don't think there would have been support for it. The technical merits weren't really the issue so much as the RPA offering a distinct service with a different union and a no-strike contract, plus a grade separated DART metro would have required different alignments in places. If the line had been reopened to Shanganagh it would have possibly allowed for a shared yard to relieve Fairview

Prior to building Luas, the general railway network was the only network. Reining in the unions was not an impossible task, and DART is always going to be higher capacity with a higher average speed overall. Luas cannot be so easily integrated into the general railway network as has been done with tram-train systems, and building new tramways in a city centre is always less effective than building underground railways, in terms of throughput. The multiplicity of facilities plus (especially) spare-parts inventories is no benefit to the taxpayer either.

dowlingm wrote: »

I did think at one point that instead of pulling from service and extending the 30m trams that new 40m trams should have been bought with the 30xx units cascaded to a light rail project for the old Cork-Passage West line but given the bellyflop the economy took it's probably for the best that didn't happen

The economic troubles had a distinct cause, but that's for a different forum.

Funny enough, I do agree that having Citadis trams would have been a decent fit for the former CB&PW, mainly due to the former double-track narrow-gauge alignment. Don't "rail-trail" too many alignments; that will be a huge cause of regret, and they'll become hangouts for criminal types...

Judgement Day

The Luas Green line is perfect the way it is and the mind boggles at just how awful some sort of DART alternative would have been. My only crib is that the Brides Glen extension (if it should have been built) should have followed the old trackbed through Foxrock and through Carrickmines and on to Bray. Anyway, as dowlingm has mentioned the CIE brand is terminally damaged and they are not fit for purpose anymore - if they ever were. Incidentally, why is all this crap in a thread about trams for Galway. :rolleyes:



Bring back the Salthill tram!