"GLuas" to be unveiled for Galway

dmeehan

Link: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/ambitious-plan-to-give-galway-its-own-gluas-trams-1398547.html?r=RSS

GALWAY could have its own light rail system called Gluas up and running within three years and at a cost of just €200m.

It will be cheaper than the capital's Luas system, which began in 2001 and ended up costing €775m.

Ambitious plans to build a 21km network of three lines with 64 stations serving the east and west of the city will be unveiled next Monday.

Proposers claim the system will need just 12,000 passengers a day to break even. And unlike the Dublin system, all three lines would actually link up.

The first line would have a park-and-ride site at the western end of the Western Distributor Road in Knocknacarra, running to Bishop O'Donnell Road and Westside, before crossing the River Corrib at the Quincentennial Bridge.

It would continue to Bohermore and past the G Hotel onto the Dublin Road, with a depot at Merlin Park.

The second line would have a park-and-ride site at Dangan/Bushypark -- linking with the first line at the Quincentennial Bridge -- then down the Newcastle Road to serve NUI Galway and UCH Galway.

The tram would travel down University Road and across the Salmon Weir Bridge before going up Eglington Street to Eyre Square.

It would continue to Prospect Hill and out the Tuam Road before making its way to another park-and-ride site at Briarhill to serve Ballbrit Industrial Estate and Galway Racecourse. The third line would run from Westside -- linking with the first line -- and then into the city centre.

prendy

looks like a very good idea and would make traffic in Galway alot lighter but 3 years in seriously ambitious for the project.

dmeehan

are they serious about calling it the Gluas? is today April 1st?

gaf1983

It looks great. Who is funding it?

fitzyshea

gaf1983 wrote: »

It looks great. Who is funding it?

Not the government anyway as its not in transport 21

Hecate

Weren't similar systems proposed by the RPA for Cork and Galway a number of years back?

Anyway, I reckon it's a good idea because it encourages competition between the various cities - which is always beneficial, eg: "Galway has a light rail system why can't we have one etc.?"

ga2re2t

And what about the city's bus network? Will it remain in the state it is? A Luas will look pretty and all, but the money could be better spent on creating a state of the art city bus network. But light rail is in fashion at the moment, and shiny new trams make better photo ops for politicians and the like.

And how, may I ask, do they plan to build 21 km of light rail with 64 stations on a budget of just 200 million euros?!! Have they included the cost of the trams in that estimate?

Have they sorted out an integrated ticketing system for Galway yet?

It all seems fishy and messy to me. Sorry for the negativity, but hey, this thread needed a negative post for a bit of balance!

serfboard

ga2re2t wrote: »

And what about the city's bus network? Will it remain in the state it is? A Luas will look pretty and all, but the money could be better spent on creating a state of the art city bus network. But light rail is in fashion at the moment, and shiny new trams make better photo ops for politicians and the like.

And how, may I ask, do they plan to build 21 km of light rail with 64 stations on a budget of just 200 million euros?!! Have they included the cost of the trams in that estimate?

Have they sorted out an integrated ticketing system for Galway yet?

It all seems fishy and messy to me. Sorry for the negativity, but hey, this thread needed a negative post for a bit of balance!

Agreed. The costing seems way off considering what the Luas ended up costing. I think they came in on the cheap end in the hope of catching the eye and garnering support.

Also agree about the buses. For 200 million, you could have an absolutely fantastic bus system in Galway, with QBCs (give one lane of the dual carriageways around Galway to buses), Park n' Ride etc.

CtrlSource

ga2re2t wrote: »

But light rail is in fashion at the moment, and shiny new trams make better photo ops for politicians and the like.

And how, may I ask, do they plan to build 21 km of light rail with 64 stations on a budget of just 200 million euros?!! Have they included the cost of the trams in that estimate?

Have they sorted out an integrated ticketing system for Galway yet?

It all seems fishy and messy to me. Sorry for the negativity, but hey, this thread needed a negative post for a bit of balance!

Negativity much?! Photo ops for politicians is hardly a motivation for this project!

serfboard wrote: »

For 200 million, you could have an absolutely fantastic bus system in Galway, with QBCs (give one lane of the dual carriageways around Galway to buses), Park n' Ride etc.

Give one lane of dual carriageways to buses? i hope you're suggesting the hard shoulder

ga2re2t

Found some further info on the following website:
http://www.nuigalway.ie/civileng/news/gluas.html

The PowerPoint presentations are very minimalist, to say the least, but you can get the general jist of them. Interesting to read about the LR55 type track and the Sheffield field test of this type of track.

http://www.lr55.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tramway_track#LR55_system

I'm being converted to the optimistic side!

Zoney

ga2re2t wrote: »

And what about the city's bus network? Will it remain in the state it is? A Luas will look pretty and all, but the money could be better spent on creating a state of the art city bus network. But light rail is in fashion at the moment, and shiny new trams make better photo ops for politicians and the like.

How do you improve the bus service when traffic is a disaster? Bus lanes don't work unless unlike Dublin you actually completely rebuild junctions, traffic signals etc. to give bus priority, and probably have to widen roads to avoid the incidences of the bus lane disappearing on narrow sections (resulting in merging for the bus). Also you have to build proper bus bays, lay on more buses (possibly double deck or extra long, and those have delays without expensive new ticketing arrangements).

All in all, if there are routes where there would have to be a very serious bus service (especially as increased service levels/reliability would result in more passengers) - it entirely makes sense to focus on trams rather than spend a fortune upgrading a creaking bus service, or spending a modest amount but for really very little change at all (possibly none if passenger levels increase in response to increased services).

I do not have first-hand experience of Galway's situation, but in Limerick ,the three main arterial routes would be better served by tram. The plan for now is bus lanes, but they will have little effect despite costing a fair bit, as really it would be necessary to widen roads to allow bus lanes both directions (and indeed additional traffic lanes as well at blackspots like Childers road, punches cross, Ennis Road). If they did spend the money on the latter improvements, they may as well go for trams rather than try to run buses frequently enough and high enough capacity.

John_C

I'm not from the city but how much of Galway's traffic is generated within the city and how much comes from people living outside and driving into Galway from Tuam or wherever to get to work? Convincing someone to take a bus from saltill to the city is a very different task to convincing someone who's already done most of their journey in a car to park it and get a bus for the last 2 miles, especially if you have to pay to park.

markpb

John_C wrote: »

I'm not from the city but how much of Galway's traffic is generated within the city and how much comes from people living outside and driving into Galway from Tuam or wherever to get to work? Convincing someone to take a bus from saltill to the city is a very different task to convincing someone who's already done most of their journey in a car to park it and get a bus for the last 2 miles, especially if you have to pay to park.

The main reason for it would be to encourage high density buildings around the LRT meaning more people don't have to travel in from outside the city. If people still want to, they'll have to accept that they're second class (transport) citizens and will probably face a loss of road capacity.

the_abused_dog

it would be nice but proabably compulsory purchase will be required and that takes a long long time. I feel strongly about giving state resources over to a private company for profit so I believe the state should hold onto the ownership of the rails and tender for the development of same and then tender the operation of the gluas every five years. At least if it doesn't get 12000 a day it cant just cut services to peak time and busy lines only

I live in Renmore and buses are few and far between. Sometimes they are early and sometimes they are late. But i do use it come hail rain or shine. What will happen to the bus service and staff if the gluas becomes reality?

road_high

Don't meant to rain on anybodys parade here but is a Galway not a bit small to warrant such a line? Hard to see how it could break even and pay for itself based on a city of 70-75,000 people.

Húrin

"21km network of three lines with 64 stations"

three stations per kilometre? :pac:

mfitzy

mfitzy wrote: »

Don't meant to rain on anybodys parade here but is a Galway not a bit small to warrant such a line? Hard to see how it could break even and pay for itself based on a city of 70-75,000 people.

I can think of a few UK towns that shelved the Idea of trams as the towns were too small, Northampton for one (pop 150,000).

lostexpectation

wheres the gbus group, will the gluas group noble the gbus group or the gbus gtram group?

EJLL

dmeehan wrote: »

are they serious about calling it the Gluas? is today April 1st?

I think Gluas is quite a catchy name..... apart from the obvious reference to the Dublin "Luas", it is kinda similar to the Irish word "Gluaistean"

With the present traffic it should be called GMall

Chris_533976

A Cork one would be the best -> Cluas

L1011

Chris_533976 wrote: »

A Cork one would be the best -> Cluas

Bet me to it, dammit. At least they'd be able to get away with a second-hand logo - cut out the company name anyway

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Be.svg

ga2re2t

Zoney wrote: »

Bus lanes don't work unless unlike Dublin you actually completely rebuild junctions, traffic signals etc. to give bus priority, and probably have to widen roads to avoid the incidences of the bus lane disappearing on narrow sections (resulting in merging for the bus). Also you have to build proper bus bays, lay on more buses (possibly double deck or extra long, and those have delays without expensive new ticketing arrangements).

YES! You hit the nail on the head. That's how you build a proper bus lane. And they work when they're done right, without incurring the capital cost of a tram system and being cheaper to update and maintain than a tram system. It's much simpler to find cash for an extra few buses than for an extra tram.

All in all, if there are routes where there would have to be a very serious bus service (especially as increased service levels/reliability would result in more passengers) - it entirely makes sense to focus on trams rather than spend a fortune upgrading a creaking bus service, or spending a modest amount but for really very little change at all (possibly none if passenger levels increase in response to increased services).

That's the problem, a dedicated bus corridor is not as "sexy" as a Luas line so it's a lot more difficult politically to get proper funding for bus corridors. The temptation with bus corridors is to cut corners, whereas a tram line has to be built to spec or it's a complete disaster.

In my previous post I mentioned that they are thinking of using LR55 rail for Gluas. If that really is a possibility then it changes the discussion a bit as the capital costs will be much lower than for the Luas. However, the big question is can such a tram system be profitable. My experience of Galway is that it is just too small to sustain a Luas type tramway. In my opinion, the plans need to be more modest, but with ample future proofing for upgrading to higher capacity.

spacetweek

My take here is that although I'm glad someone is proposing public transit investment for Galway, I think Luas is overspecced. In the Netherlands where they provide trams for towns at the drop of a hat, they still don't build them for towns the size of Galway. Eindhoven for example has an urban population of 440000 but they only have BRT.

Having said that of course a reservation should be left for the line as the city expands. In addition future expansion of the city should be directed east not west. And a future 3-line network? God Dublin doesn't even have 3 luas lines yet!

ga2re2t I'm interested to know what LR55 is and why it's a big deal?

transylman

Galway has major transport problems but the last thing it needs is a tram network. Instead of this the focus should be on
1. A decent bus system (right now it has the worst city bus system in the country)
2. A ring road around the city (already planned but seemingly postponed)
3. Bypasses of all bottlenecks leading into the city
4. A planning strategy as opposed to the current free for all

Chris_533976

City buses in Galway are better than Cork or Limerick IMO. Half the problem is delays on Bishop O Donnell Road and the fact that the entire city centre shouldnt have cars in it. Buses, taxis and pedestrians only with some good orbital carparks would do it.

Get the outer ring road built.

Get a local Claregalway bypass built, not just the motorway.

Have a more suburban bus service to bring people in from satellite towns.

Stop this Gluas rubbish. Its a good idea in theory, but massively underestimated costs. Spend 200million on buses and you'll have a much better system.

Galway can be sorted out fairly easily, theres just too many idiots in charge.

Xylophonic

spacetweek wrote: »

ga2re2t I'm interested to know what LR55 is and why it's a big deal?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tramway_track#LR55_system

mackerski

dmeehan wrote: »

are they serious about calling it the Gluas?

I don't see why not. And then Cork can have "Cluas".

D.L.R.

mackerski wrote: »

I don't see why not. And then Cork can have "Cluas".

Limerick probably won't get a tram system so.

This reminds me of those dart jokes years ago - Cart in cork, Wart in Waterford etc. sigh.

markpb

D.L.R. wrote: »

Limerick probably won't get a tram system so.

Nah, it's be LLUAS and the Welsh would be the only ones able to pronounce it

RedPlanet

The British operated a tram system in Galway.
Galway was a lot smaller both in area and in population then.

The economics were very different at the end of the 19th century, Just about every town on the UK with a population over 40,000 or so had a tramway of some sort. It's easy to see why when you consider the alternative forms of transport available at the time and the state of the roads.

If oil prices continue rising the way they are now, busses will have the streets almost to themselves!

the_abused_dog

Galway is a small city. We should stagger working hours efficiently. Therefore spreading out the rush hour into not so rushed hours.
We should teach people how to use roundabouts safely. This would go along way to improve on flow. Cautious drivers make roudabouts unusable in rush hour.
Parents should be banned from dropping kids off to schools in the city centre. They should be dropped off in school bus depots on the outskirts of galway. This bus service should be free and regular.
Students should be persuaded from driving to college and should be allowed to avail of the bus/train for free.

pointofnoreturn

the_abused_dog wrote: »

Galway is a small city. We should stagger working hours efficiently. Therefore spreading out the rush hour into not so rushed hours.
We should teach people how to use roundabouts safely. This would go along way to improve on flow. Cautious drivers make roudabouts unusable in rush hour.
Parents should be banned from dropping kids off to schools in the city centre. They should be dropped off in school bus depots on the outskirts of galway. This bus service should be free and regular.
Students should be persuaded from driving to college and should be allowed to avail of the bus/train for free.

A very good idea, but implementing it into a society that loves their car! is yet another challenge, however with this rise in oil and down turn in the economy we should soon see a change in lifestyle, however public transport will have to be ready and will to serve as the only alternative! then that could become the bases of a change in attitude to public transport as in the way main land Europe

Nostradamus

RedPlanet wrote: »

The British operated a tram system in Galway.
Galway was a lot smaller both in area and in population then.

It was a local private company and it was a horse drawn single tram line from the station to Salthill. The service was canceled after the last horse died.

It was hardly London Transport on the Corrib.

afatbollix

if its going to cost 200million and only 12,000 people a day to pay for its self i cant beleave that a company wont pay it.... it could be the next m50 bridge...

Victor

the_abused_dog wrote: »

Galway is a small city. We should stagger working hours efficiently. Therefore spreading out the rush hour into not so rushed hours. We should teach people how to use roundabouts safely. This would go along way to improve on flow. Cautious drivers make roudabouts unusable in rush hour. Parents should be banned from dropping kids off to schools in the city centre. They should be dropped off in school bus depots on the outskirts of galway. This bus service should be free and regular. Students should be persuaded from driving to college and should be allowed to avail of the bus/train for free.

How about making the workers use public transport?

Sponge Bob

Victor wrote: »

How about making the workers use public transport?

How about first bypassing Galway.

That takes lots of traffic out of town so you can now easily build the Gluas on the empty streets.

The best of both worlds for Galway that is . Spanking!

Amtmann

City Councillors in Galway unanimously endorsed the GLUAS plan last Wednesday.

Three minute news clip here: http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0910/drivetime_av.html?2420966,null,209

BluntGuy

I am in favour of all public transport schemes that improve lives for local people.

But I am not sure this is a cost-effective investment. I'm certainally not against it, and if they could deliver all that they promise for 200 million then it would be fantastic.

But I'm not sure that will be the case...

Anyway, ALL our cities need sorting out badly when it comes to public transport. Waterford and Cork are nothing short of disgraces.

But should we employ light rail in ALL our cities?

Chris_533976

I really really doubt the Gluas will be built.

1) Its not needed in a city the size of Galway. Build the outer ring road and put HALF the money into a decent bus system and you'll be laughing.
2) No matter what they say, they have VASTLY underestimated the amount it will cost. They're saying €300million, the Dublin ones cost €700 million a few years ago.
3) No way will GLUAS be funded in the current climate. Especially since Cork and Limerick (at least) would want one of these too.

I was hoping they'd come to their senses and veto this nonsense, but it wont get built in any case, I HOPE. That said, they should reserve alignments for 50 years into the future, say.

pointofnoreturn

Chris_533976 wrote: »

I really really doubt the Gluas will be built.

1) Its not needed in a city the size of Galway. Build the outer ring road and put HALF the money into a decent bus system and you'll be laughing.
2) No matter what they say, they have VASTLY underestimated the amount it will cost. They're saying €300million, the Dublin ones cost €700 million a few years ago.
3) No way will GLUAS be funded in the current climate. Especially since Cork and Limerick (at least) would want one of these too.

I was hoping they'd come to their senses and veto this nonsense, but it wont get built in any case, I HOPE. That said, they should reserve alignments for 50 years into the future, say.

Do you drive?
Because, regardless of the situation now, every city in Ireland needs to build a infrastructure that central Europe has had for decades! it will cost a huge amount of money and that focus must not be profit driven but driven for the reason that we need a country that can build from an infrastructure that we have lacked!

Chris_533976

Yes and I'm the first to complain about Galway and driving, I have to battle my way around this place every day.

Outer Bypass is the first step.

pointofnoreturn

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Yes and I'm the first to complain about Galway and driving, I have to battle my way around this place every day.

Outer Bypass is the first step.

and wouldn't you rather be happy to take a metro into town, not worry about parking, etc... also cheaper

sure this will take most of the cars off the road, and free it up

Amtmann

I am in favour of building it asap. All available data indicates that the population of Ireland will surpass 6 million within 40 years, and perhaps 7 million by the 90's. That might sound far ahead, but a baby born today has quite a good chance of living to see 2100.

If we want the bulk of that new population to live in Dublin and to further unbalance Ireland's spatial equilibrium to a grotesque degree, then do not build the Gluas. If, however, as a nation we want to revivify the West, then build it. It might not be very busy in its early years, but it certainly will be by the 20s if other policies are enacted too.

I'd also like to see a Luas built for Cork: Line A would link CIT with UCC, go down Barack Street and cross the river, proceeding up Shandon Street for starters. Line B could be built from the proposed Dunkettle station, and proceed at some point over the Lee to the new marina development complex before terminating close to Parnell Place, possibly heading up South Mall before meeting Line A somewhere close to Washington Street. Line C could link Douglas and Mahon with the centre.

Just thoughts...but really, why not?

Amtmann

Chris_533976 wrote: »

I really really doubt the Gluas will be built.

1) Its not needed in a city the size of Galway. Build the outer ring road and put HALF the money into a decent bus system and you'll be laughing.
2) No matter what they say, they have VASTLY underestimated the amount it will cost. They're saying €300million, the Dublin ones cost €700 million a few years ago.
3) No way will GLUAS be funded in the current climate. Especially since Cork and Limerick (at least) would want one of these too.

I was hoping they'd come to their senses and veto this nonsense, but it wont get built in any case, I HOPE. That said, they should reserve alignments for 50 years into the future, say.

But who planned the Dublin Luas? They made a haims of the costing and delivery, there's no doubt.

But the Gluas team are a different kettle of fish altogether. They're a think-tank composed of engineers, businessmen (aka 'investors'), Greens (say what you like about Greens, but they are big into sustainable, longterm planning) and NUIG academics (some of whom, presumably, are engineers, planners and social geographers).

On top of that they've evidently done their homework, going so far as to provide two case studies: http://gluas.com/home/will-gluas-work-in-galway/

I'm very hopeful this'll happen, and that if it does it'll have a positive knock-on effect for Cork too.

BluntGuy

Cork is a very difficult case.

I was in the city centre one day and I actually thought about whether they could build a Luas system there and I'm not exactly sure.

If we had the money, I'd say Cork should have an underground subway in the city centre, but alas, Cork is simply far too small to warrant such an investment.

Money should be spent upgrading the disgraceful bus services while a light-rail or similar plan is being created.

Amtmann

BluntGuy wrote: »

Cork is a very difficult case.

I was in the city centre one day and I actually thought about whether they could build a Luas system there and I'm not exactly sure.

If we had the money, I'd say Cork should have an underground subway in the city centre, but alas, Cork is simply far too small to warrant such an investment.

Money should be spent upgrading the disgraceful bus services while a light-rail or similar plan is being created.

Are you referring to the hilliness? I've thought about that too; and Lisbon (the city, not the treaty ) comes to mind.

My thinking would be a hugely pedestrianised city centre: Barack Street, North Main Street and Shandon Street would be too narrow to accomodate traffic and a Luas, so I'd dispense with the traffic. It would be a fairly radical plan, but if properly devised, it would work.

pointofnoreturn

Furet wrote: »

But who planned the Dublin Luas? They made a haims of the costing and delivery, there's no doubt.

But the Gluas team are a different kettle of fish altogether. They're a think-tank composed of engineers, businessmen (aka 'investors'), Greens (say what you like about Greens, but they are big into sustainable, longterm planning) and NUIG academics (some of whom, presumably, are engineers, planners and social geographers).

On top of that they've evidently done their homework, going so far as to provide two case studies: http://gluas.com/home/will-gluas-work-in-galway/

I'm very hopeful this'll happen, and that if it does it'll have a positive knock-on effect for Cork too.

The Team looks good, but only one thing is; http://www.trampower.co.uk/ very basic site, and not updated, maybe they did a good job in their position with the Dublin Luas project but shouldn't we also evaluate some of the big names in rail transport in central Europe?

bk

The idea of building LUAS in the smaller cities like Cork and Galway is ridiculous.

BTW I'm from Cork and fully support public transport.

The reality is these cities are just to small and low density to currently support expensive tram systems, specially in the current economic climate. I believe that this is an unnecessary distraction from the real changes that should be made today.

What we should be doing right now is:

1) Vastly increase our investment in the bus service of these cities. The bus service of these cities is truly awful, slow, infrequent and over crowded. An investment of even a fraction of what LUAS would cost would see a massive improvement in the Bus service.

Also control of the bus services needs to be taken out of the hands of Bus Eireann and given over to a Cork, etc. equivalent of Dublin Bus and put under administrative control of the City and County Councils. Work practices need to change radically from the current "sure it will be fine" to a system more like DB.

You need to learn to walk before you can run and I fear that silly talk about a LUAS that wouldn't be built for 30 years will distract from changes which urgently should and can be made today.

2) Of course these cities should plan for LUAS at some future time by now deciding the route, protecting the route, put in place planning designations for high density development along the route, etc.

This is what was done in Dublin with some of the LUAS line route 30 years ago and it is what has been successfully done in Cork along the commuter rail lines.

Sponge Bob

bk wrote: »

The idea of building LUAS in the smaller cities like Cork and Galway is ridiculous.

Yep . Designating corridors for 20 years hence and upping pop densities along them over that time is whats needed now .