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Bar Staff ??

the beer revolu

What do people think of the standard of bar service in this country?

I've had a go at bar managers in my blog.

Does anybody else feel the same or have stories relating to really bad service?
(I'll link this thread)

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aktelmiele

DesF wrote: »

There is one barman, in the Porter House just off Grafton Street.

He spent ages talking to me about all of the different beers in the pub.

He knew a lot about the beers he wa selling. He remembered I had asked for the Baltika Porter, and recommended a few others for me to try based on that. It was a busy night too, so fair play to him.

Think I have spoken to him too.

They ran out of some beer I was drinking so he recomended a few beers to try.

Its not the first time that they have run out of Staropramen but he still offers the same beers each time.

Kind of like deja vu!

BeerNut

Short blond hair? If so, that's Dave. He's now one of the owners of the company and is in charge of their marketing. Sounds like he's doing the best kind of marketing: one-to-one across the bar.

Mongo

I'm a bar man myself and most of the complaints here seem to be very reasonable.

As far as ice goes I only ask people if they want ice if they are drinking a brandy or whiskey etc. Vodka and Gin etc is automatically served with ice unless stated otherwise.

I think the 2 part pour is important as it effects the look and the texture of the pint. And as someone said the first taste is with the eyes.

I find most bar staff to be quite pleasant and fairly competent. Irish customers expect so much from staff in the service industry in return for so little. Why should bar staff be nice to a customer who is a complete asshat to them?

BeerNut

Mongo wrote: »

I think the 2 part pour is important as it effects the look and the texture of the pint.

Can you explain how? Given that the head depth can be adjusted after a full pour -- like any other beer that's running high -- what way are the appearance and (especially) the texture affected?

Blisterman

Someone should do a blindfolded test on people who insist that a 2 part pour tastes better, to see if they can tell the difference.

oblivious

Blisterman wrote: »

Someone should do a blindfolded test on people who insist that a 2 part pour tastes better, to see if they can tell the difference.

triangle three way beer taste is the absolute, if you cant can a difference in two there is none

Degag

BeerNut wrote: »

Can you explain how? Given that the head depth can be adjusted after a full pour -- like any other beer that's running high -- what way are the appearance and (especially) the texture affected?

Well it can only be adjusted if the head is too big not if its too small (guinness)... A guy came into me a few weeks ago asking for a guinness with a big head, wtf???

Everything that mongo said is correct... people who complain about getting ice and lemon in their gin/vodka should tell the barman that they don't want it, as that is the way its served in virtually every pub i know... its the norm.

kmart6

If someone orders a Vodka or Gin off me I always put ice and lemon in it, it's proper order! But if I do it and bring it make to the customer and they then tell me they don't want ice/lemon they'll be waiting a lot longer to get served the next time!:D

job3

All this talk got me interested so I had a look on wikipedia and this is what they had to say about the two part pour.

''This tradition comes from when Guinness was served from the cask, and initially older beer was poured into a glass until it was 3/4 full, then left to stand. When ordered by the customer, the glass was topped up from younger, gassier beer, producing the traditional head. As the beer is no longer blended from different ages of beer, the double pour is no longer required for the mixing of beers but is still maintained as it produces a better pint as the head does not over fill the glass and need to be discarded.''

Seems like a reasonable explanation.:)

oblivious

job3 wrote: »

All this talk got me interested so I had a look on wikipedia and this is what they had to say about the two part pour.

''This tradition comes from when Guinness was served from the cask, and initially older beer was poured into a glass until it was 3/4 full, then left to stand. When ordered by the customer, the glass was topped up from younger, gassier beer, producing the traditional head. As the beer is no longer blended from different ages of beer, the double pour is no longer required for the mixing of beers but is still maintained as it produces a better pint as the head does not over fill the glass and need to be discarded.''

Seems like a reasonable explanation.:)

not sure about the blending of aged beer, it been a very long time since any commerical beer has been served blended. But the cask version only went out of served in the late 50's or early 60's i think

BeerNut

Tackle69 wrote: »

Well it can only be adjusted if the head is too big not if its too small (guinness)

Not that I've ever seen it in real life, but surely it's the same as any other keg beer: give the tap a whack and put another jet of foam in.

job3 wrote: »

All this talk got me interested so I had a look on wikipedia

oblivious wrote: »

not sure about the blending of aged beer, it been a very long time since any commerical beer has been served blended. But the cask version only went out of served in the late 50's or early 60's i think

Wikipedia's explanation is also to be found in Iorwerth Griffiths's book, where he says it was solely an urban phenomenon. However I have never spoken to anyone who remembers drinking cask Guinness in any form: always bottles, even in Dublin.

What amazes me it that there was no public outcry when Guinness went from cask to nitrokeg. But then this was was the era of Progress and everyone was too busy ripping up railway lines to notice...

oblivious

BeerNut wrote: »

But then this was was the era of Progress and everyone was too busy ripping up railway lines to notice...

and leaving the coutry

Mossin

Tackle69 wrote: »

people who complain about getting ice and lemon in their gin/vodka should tell the barman that they don't want it, as that is the way its served in virtually every pub i know... its the norm.

There are 2 sides to that point. Customers should specify that they dont want ice and/or lemon in their drink, but the barperson shouldnt assume just because they dont say it that its ok to put it in, theu also have a responsibility to ask the customer.

kmart6 wrote: »

If someone orders a Vodka or Gin off me I always put ice and lemon in it, it's proper order! But if I do it and bring it make to the customer and they then tell me they don't want ice/lemon they'll be waiting a lot longer to get served the next time!:D

That'd the problem with bar staff in this country, when a customer doesnt tell staff something, and staff assume it to be true, as i pointed out above, the staff hold a grudge and make it more difficult for the customer to get a drink the following time. That really annoying on behalf of the customer.

the beer revolu wrote: »

What do people think of the standard of bar service in this country?

I was in Killarney recently and had varying standards of bar staff. From the very friendly local staff in Dunloe, who very so helpful and nice, to the ridiculously ignorant staff in a pub in Killarney town.
The standard of staff is on the decline, because people arent as appreciative of what they have anymore. I worked in bars/hotels/nightclubs for 12 years, and I'm only 23. I appreciate what all aspects of pub life. I know what work is onvolved behind the scenes that a lot of bar staff dont see, and the customers dont recognise occurs. That is why I acknowledge customers when they enter a premises, and accept that they are right in what they want, even if you know better, staff must accommodate the customer. Albeit there are a few exceptions.

BeerNut wrote: »

Some people do drink brandy with ice. A single piece is quite popular. The important bit, however, is to be asked.

Exactly, being asked makes it more acceptable.

BeerNut

Mossin wrote: »

There are 2 sides to that point. Customers should specify that they dont want ice and/or lemon in their drink, but the barperson shouldnt assume just because they dont say it that its ok to put it in, theu also have a responsibility to ask the customer.

From my experience, while most people would just say "yes" if asked if they want ice in their vodka or gin, there are many who react as if you'd asked them whether they'd prefer that in a glass or a mug. And their number is greater than those who prefer no ice.

I know one person who drinks vodka and Coke and doesn't like ice, and she is always very careful to make this clear when ordering. Not being so careful, in the face of convention, is daft.

Degag

BeerNut wrote: »

Not that I've ever seen it in real life, but surely it's the same as any other keg beer: give the tap a whack and put another jet of foam in.

There is no gas valve on the guinness tap like there is on lager taps, therefore not possible to adjust the head. The example you gave only works on lagers/beers.

Mossin wrote:

There are 2 sides to that point. Customers should specify that they dont want ice and/or lemon in their drink, but the barperson shouldnt assume just because they dont say it that its ok to put it in, theu also have a responsibility to ask the customer.

From the point of view of the barman, on a busy night, 90-95% of people take their drinks with ice and lemon and a good barman is an effecient barman. I do take your point though.

I'm from the killarney area myself and while i don't work there i frequent it fairly often.. which pub were you unhappy with the service?

BeerNut

Tackle69 wrote: »

There is no gas valve on the guinness tap like there is on lager taps, therefore not possible to adjust the head. The example you gave only works on lagers/beers.

Fair enough. So what do bars do if the Guinness is running too low to produce the right sort of head? Sounds like the ideal opportunity for a one-part pour

Degag

BeerNut wrote: »

Fair enough. So what do bars do if the Guinness is running too low to produce the right sort of head? Sounds like the ideal opportunity for a one-part pour

Well what bars do is keep filling and hope no one complains! Not very ethical, but it happens... if you get complaints then you might change the barrel.

kmart6

Mossin wrote: »

That'd the problem with bar staff in this country, when a customer doesnt tell staff something, and staff assume it to be true, as i pointed out above, the staff hold a grudge and make it more difficult for the customer to get a drink the following time. That really annoying on behalf of the customer.

Well that's just tough sh1t! If you want your drink a certain way ask for it when orderig not after it's given to you! It's annoying for the bar staff!

the beer revolu

Ooooo. I've opened a right little can of worms here, haven't I?

I too did my time behind bars. I probably wasn't the greatest barman ever but I made it my business to know every product that the bar served, I got to know regular's preferences.
I would have always put ice and lemon in white spirits and asked what was required in other spirits.
Let's face it, the two part pour is probably here to stay whether it's necessary or not.

If I'm drinking a bottled lager I prefer a small glass, so I ask for it.
Ditto for a Pint Bottle of Guinness.

Fall_Guy

Tackle69 wrote: »

There is no gas valve on the guinness tap like there is on lager taps, therefore not possible to adjust the head. The example you gave only works on lagers/beers.

Having never worked as a barman i'm not certain of this, but if there is no gas valve on a guiness tap, why do some barmen talk about the importance of pushing the tap forward as opposed to pulling it back when topping up the pint after its settled? I always presumed this had something to do with more gas coming through when the tap it pushed forward? (I ask this only out of ignorance and interest, not trying to argue the fact, as i have no knowledge of it!)

Degag

Fall_Guy wrote: »

Having never worked as a barman i'm not certain of this, but if there is no gas valve on a guiness tap, why do some barmen talk about the importance of pushing the tap forward as opposed to pulling it back when topping up the pint after its settled? I always presumed this had something to do with more gas coming through when the tap it pushed forward? (I ask this only out of ignorance and interest, not trying to argue the fact, as i have no knowledge of it!)

Yup, you're right, when you do this (slightly) more gas is released... however the barman has no way of controlling how much or how little gas is released in the way he does with lagers. With lagers there is a valve on the taps themselves that can be adjusted accordingly that isn't there with guinness. Aswell as that the importance of pushing the tap forwards as opposed to pulling it is over exaggerated as the effects are minimal and it wont result in a bigger head.

Mossin

kmart6 wrote: »

Well that's just tough sh1t! If you want your drink a certain way ask for it when orderig not after it's given to you! It's annoying for the bar staff!

That response is exactly whats wrong with bar staff in this country...Gone are the days of the friendly bar staff who greet all customers with a smile. If something annoys the bar staff, they shouldnt take it out on the customer or hold a grudge!! Some people are ignorant and staff just have to accept that..

Tackle69 wrote: »

From the point of view of the barman, on a busy night, 90-95% of people take their drinks with ice and lemon and a good barman is an effecient barman. I do take your point though.

Yes a good barman is an efficient barman and those barmen usually ask, or at least have the cop on the understand the customer.

BeerNut wrote: »

From my experience, while most people would just say "yes" if asked if they want ice in their vodka or gin, there are many who react as if you'd asked them whether they'd prefer that in a glass or a mug. And their number is greater than those who prefer no ice.

I know one person who drinks vodka and Coke and doesn't like ice, and she is always very careful to make this clear when ordering. Not being so careful, in the face of convention, is daft.

You are one of a few people who ask first, it must get annoying from your point of view as well though?

kmart6

Mossin wrote: »

That response is exactly whats wrong with bar staff in this country...Gone are the days of the friendly bar staff who greet all customers with a smile. If something annoys the bar staff, they shouldnt take it out on the customer or hold a grudge!! Some people are ignorant and staff just have to accept that..

Jumping the gun there saying bar staff don't smile and a huge generalisation!!!

Mossin wrote: »

Yes a good barman is an efficient barman and those barmen usually ask, or at least have the cop on the understand the customer.

You have no idea do you?! Your trying to say a good barman is someone who asks....most customers would think your a fairly sh1t barman if you start asking do you want ice/lemon in your vodka/gin!

Your in UL so I take it you've been to Trinity Rooms so I'll use that as an example! Do you expect all the bar staff in there to ask every student all night do they want ice in there vodka?!....if you do then your been totally unrealistic as it's too busy to be doing that!!

Mr Magnolia

kmart6 wrote: »

You have no idea do you?! Your trying to say a good barman is someone who asks....most customers would think your a fairly sh1t barman if you start asking do you want ice/lemon in your vodka/gin!

Not at all. It takes one second to say "ice and a slice?". I know many people who don't take a slice of fruit in there vodka. Then there are people who prefer lime to lemon. Of course a good barman would ask whether the paying customer wants anything added to their drink. Does not asking make them a bad barman? - not in my opinion, but I would say they could do with some more training. I always asked for the first drink, I'd generally remember each punter's preferance after that.

Your in UL so I take it you've been to Trinity Rooms so I'll use that as an example! Do you expect all the bar staff in there to ask every student all night do they want ice in there vodka?!....if you do then your been totally unrealistic as it's too busy to be doing that!!

If it's too busy to ask that simple question then there is something wrong at management level, be it staffing, training, attitude or whatever.

On the 2 part pour, I would notice the difference in the texture of a pint of guinness if it was poured in one motion. The head would be flat on the top of the glass too.

BeerNut

Mr Magnolia wrote: »

I would notice the difference in the texture of a pint of guinness if it was poured in one motion.

Interesting. How would it differ?

Mr Magnolia wrote: »

The head would be flat on the top of the glass too.

Not necessarily. I think there's still time for the foam to stiffen sufficiently to sit above the rim at the end of the pour. Besides which, what difference does the position of the head make to the beer? It's not like you drink the head off before tackling the body. Er, do you?

Mr Magnolia

BeerNut wrote: »

Interesting. How would it differ?

If the quality of the Guinness is good to begin with then the texture of the 2-part poured pint will be creamier(spl?) and there will be a considerable difference in the texture of the head. Try it. Ask the barman to pour you the 2 pints the next time you're in a pub with a decent pint.

Not necessarily. I think there's still time for the foam to stiffen sufficiently to sit above the rim at the end of the pour.

No. The head won't have started to stiffen enough to enable it to protrude over the top opf the glass in a 1-part pour and it doesn't expand as it settles so it can't happen as you descirbe. Again, check it out if you're doing the above.

Besides which, what difference does the position of the head make to the beer?

Aesthetics first of all. The look of the pint is the first indicator as to what the pint is going to taste like. When I lift a pint of Guinness I rotate it slightly in a circular motion. If the head is watery it will run over the side of the glass from underneath the top of the head then you can be sure the pint will be watery too. If the head is thick and creamy as it should be this won't happen in the same manner at all.

It's not like you drink the head off before tackling the body. Er, do you?

No, it would be pretty hard to do without making a tool of yourself. I'd have no interest in doing it anyway. Some people sink the head down after they finish the beer, I don't.

Edit/ on topic: Barmen should know that the bottom half of the glass is their part of the glass to handle, the top half belongs to the customer.

BeerNut

Mr Magnolia wrote: »

If the quality of the Guinness is good to begin with then the texture of the 2-part poured pint will be creamier(spl?)

You'll have to unpack this one for me a bit. The Guinness in the keg is exactly same at all times in all places. It's coming out of a huge industrial facility which has lots of expensive procedures in place to make sure of this. The quality of the Guinness is identical everywhere, only the quality of dispense varies, hence those Q Tech "Quality Team" vans.

Mr Magnolia wrote: »

Try it. Ask the barman to pour you the 2 pints the next time you're in a pub with a decent pint.

Does it only work for pints? If I were setting up a proper blind-testing experiment, as I'm assuming you've done, I'd be inclined to go for glasses. Might the results differ if I were testing glasses of Guinness?

Mr Magnolia wrote: »

Aesthetics first of all. The look of the pint is the first indicator as to what the pint is going to taste like.

I was asking about the texture and taste. This is irrelevant, indicator or no. I know that how a pint looks is important to a lot of people, but really I couldn't care less as long as it tastes good. I don't buy pints to look at them (though I've photographed a fair few

Mr Magnolia wrote: »

If the head is watery it will run over the side of the glass from underneath the top of the head then you can be sure the pint will be watery too.

Are you saying that one-part pour produces a thinner-bodied beer? How does that work? I mean, the head stiffness is down to the gas mix in it. It's not going to affect the body of the beer. Mashing determines the body, and that happens well before all the gas is removed from your Guinness and replaced at the tap with gas from the pub's own supply.

If you used a pipette to sample the stout from a one-pour pint and a two-pour pint, are you saying there would be a discernable difference in the mouthfeel of the beers?

If so, how does that work? What causes it?

Mr Magnolia

BeerNut wrote: »

You'll have to unpack this one for me a bit. The Guinness in the keg is exactly same at all times in all places. It's coming out of a huge industrial facility which has lots of expensive procedures in place to make sure of this. The quality of the Guinness is identical everywhere, only the quality of dispense varies, hence those Q Tech "Quality Team" vans.

The qualtity team can't change the length of the lines, the type of refridgeration used, the date of manufacture of the beer, the date of fill, the transportation method, how long it's stored before being used, these are just some of the variables that come to mind.

Does it only work for pints? If I were setting up a proper blind-testing experiment, as I'm assuming you've done, I'd be inclined to go for glasses. Might the results differ if I were testing glasses of Guinness?

I'd recommend doing it with pints, no particular reason for this other than my experiences.

I was asking about the texture and taste. This is irrelevant, indicator or no. I know that how a pint looks is important to a lot of people, but really I couldn't care less as long as it tastes good. I don't buy pints to look at them (though I've photographed a fair few ).

You asked what difference it made to the beer, you should have been more specific. Same as food, the aesthetics of the item are our first indication of what it's going to taste like. If you couldn't care less your the first I've encountered, fair play

I went on to describe how it was relevant in my last post.

Are you saying that one-part pour produces a thinner-bodied beer?

In my experience, yes.

How does that work? I mean the head stiffness is down to the gas mix in it. It's not going to affect the body of the beer. Mashing determines the body, and that happens well before all the gas is removed from your Guinness and replaced at the tap with gas from the pub's own supply.

If you used a pipette to sample the stout from a one-pour pint and a two-pour pint, are you saying there would be a discernable difference in the mouthfeel of the beers?

If so, how does that work? What causes it?

Haven't got a scooby doo

Degag

Mossin wrote: »

That response is exactly whats wrong with bar staff in this country...Gone are the days of the friendly bar staff who greet all customers with a smile. If something annoys the bar staff, they shouldnt take it out on the customer or hold a grudge!! Some people are ignorant and staff just have to accept that..

Yes a good barman is an efficient barman and those barmen usually ask, or at least have the cop on the understand the customer.

You are one of a few people who ask first, it must get annoying from your point of view as well though?

Ok, first question, have you ever worked in a bar?

Ask what? As i already stated, vodka and gin come with ice and lemon as standerd. It's up to the customer to state it if they don't want this. If you want a big mac without cheese you ask for it without cheese, you don't depend on the psychic powers of the server to know if you want cheese or not. You might think that it only takes 1 second to ask if someone wants ice/lemon etc but in reality it takes much longer due to noise levels, drunkedness etc, i understand you were just setting an example, but that is the reality of it. Add those "seconds "up over a night and it adds up quite a bit. To be honest i'd rather an effecient barman over one who puts lemon in my drink any night of the week.

Understand the customer? Very important of course, not on a busy night though... Try serving eight different people each with multiple drinks in their order and its difficult to remember which drinks they want let alone if they want lemon in them or not.

Speaking of ignorant customers and staff having to accept it, i agree with you, but it is very very difficult at times.... if a barman is a bit short with you do you ever think that he's just busy and doesn't have time to smile or converse with you?

Adyx

As a barman myself I find the best method where I work is ice in all white spirits, jack daniels, southern comfort, baileys, etc, ask for irish or scotch and none in brandy unless told. I'd say 99.5% of the time I'm right. As for fruit, a lot of the time you can guess based on the customer eg a young fella generally won't want a lemon in his vodka and coke. If I'm wrong it only takes a second to fix it. I'd always put a lemon in gin & tonic although I think a lime suits it better.

While I agree it is annoying when someone tells you they don't want ice after you've made the drink, I wouldn't hold it against them. I'd try and remember for the next time they come up to me. I've much more important things to be worrying about while I'm working.

I actually pulled a one part pour guinness tonight - at the customers request of course. I pulled to about 1mm short of the lip of the glass to prevent overspill as it settled. Head came out perfect on it from what I could see.

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