Request to update charter

BFSL

I would like to make a formal request to update the Boards.ie airsoft forum charter on lasers, as I have a formal document confirming that it is legal to attach a laser device of less than 5mW* to an airsoft device of less than 1 Joule energy.

Dear Derek
Further to your attached query and our recent visit to your premises.

(i) As previously stated "lasers of less than 5 milli Watts in the light frequencies of 630 to 680nm" would not be considered to be firearms in accordance with Section 1(d) of the Firearms Act 1925 as amended. Accordingly, should you*attach that strength of laser to airsoft with a muzzle energy of less than 1 joule, the status of both the laser and airsoft remain outside the definition of a firearm.

(ii) I draw your attention to Section 1(g)(i) of the Firearms Act 1925 as amended which provides that the definition of a firearm includes;*

(i) telescope sights with a light beam, or telescope* sights with an electronic light amplification* device or an infra-red device, designed to be fitted* to a firearm specified in paragraph (a), (b),(c) or (e),Accordingly such (telescope sights with infra-red device, etc) should be specifically designed only for use with non - firearms.


This is from two senior members of the DOJ after a visit to view the products..

The Master

Sounds good Derek,

Can I ask who gave you this info?

Stercus Accidit

Congratulations

That covers both aspects that were worrying.

DOJ I take it?

BFSL

Motosam wrote: »

Congratulations

That covers both aspects that were worrying.

DOJ I take it?

Exactly:)

bullets

Ahhhhh!!!! Yummy yummy Plus 1 from me. Have been bitching via PM's for ages
with regards to Lasers! and Got to say Am Pro Laser Man myself.


~B

Puding

Nice to see, came across your post on irish airsoft forums, nice to clarification, can still see how people can argue it both ways even with this, but a official clarification is great news.

BFSL

Puding wrote: »

Nice to see, came across your post on irish airsoft forums, nice to clarification, can still see how people can argue it both ways even with this, but a official clarification is great news.

The key word above is (attach).

Stercus Accidit

The whole recoil issue negates the use of any plastic laser or cheap cast metal on a real firearm, so bar buying a 200$+ unit designed specifically for a firearm, we seem grand.

BFSL

Motosam wrote: »

The whole recoil issue negates the use of any plastic laser or cheap cast metal on a real firearm, so bar buying a 200$+ unit designed specifically for a firearm, we seem grand.

I will also have a letter from our suppliers stating that all their laser devices are SPECIFICALLY made for airsoft, I have also clarified this with the DOJ and that is fine

Puding

I will also have a letter from our suppliers stating that all their laser devices are SPECIFICALLY made for airsoft

thats good for the items your selling as it was the area of defining and item that is only for airsoft for airsoft

BFSL

Puding wrote: »

thats good for the items your selling as it was the area of defining and item that is only for airsoft for airsoft

That's true, but don't forget the power level, I recon anybody who goes looking for a real firearm laser has more money than sense and they will need an importation cert to bring it in.

gandalf

Derek can you scan the document and email me a copy. I'll pm my email address to ya.

Gizmodeon

Derek,
did I mention how great you are recently?
**Gizmo is not worthy**
:D:D

senordingdong

We should have a laser show now.

BFSL

Gizmodeon wrote: »

Derek,
did I mention how great you are recently?
**Gizmo is not worthy**
:D:D

Thank you:D

BFSL

gandalf wrote: »

Derek can you scan the document and email me a copy. I'll pm my email address to ya.

I dont have a scanner, but gyle took a copy and he will post it tomorrow

gandalf

BFSL wrote: »

I dont have a scanner, but gyle took a copy and he will post it tomorrow

Cool man, I may not get a chance to update the charter until I get back from Barcelona next week. But once I see the letter I will change it.

* just covering my ample arse

BFSL

gandalf wrote: »

Cool man, I may not get a chance to update the charter until I get back from Barcelona next week. But once I see the letter I will change it.

* just covering my ample arse

Great stuff, enjoy your trip

amaughan

good man.
you should start your own irish airsoft defence association haha good work

Gyle

this is great news:cool: i can finally tart up my aeg the way it was born to be.
I will post a scan of the doc first thing in the morning.:D

ED E

Wohoo. UMP = 4 rails = 4 lasers! Best place to buy cheap lasers?

Derek is the man, derek is the man.

The Master

Its gonna be like a Pink Floyd show out there now:D

Gyle

Here is a scan of the original e-mail

BFSL

Gyle wrote: »

Here is a scan of the original e-mail

Cheers buddy:)

Genghiz Cohen

Gyle wrote: »

Here is a scan of the original e-mail

Heh "Subject: {Possible Spam} Airsoft and lasers."

Nice one Derek.

ED E

Was looking a bulk order for lasers.

This: http://www.rsov.com/product_info.php?products_id=1532
Works out at €25.45 for one, or 25 each for three or, 23 each for ten, all shipped to here. Not much of a saving and there are only 11 in atm. I'll keep looking.

A.T.F

Gizmodeon wrote: »

Derek,
did I mention how great you are recently?
**Gizmo is not worthy**
:D:D

Yes Derek we,re not worthy ,we,re not worthy,we,re not worthy :D

thanks for sorting out this grey area

BFSL

A.T.F wrote: »

Yes Derek we,re not worthy ,we,re not worthy,we,re not worthy :D

thanks for sorting out this grey area

Thanks buddy;)

Skatedude

I may haver the equipment to test the power levels as i'm a laser technician, but it may not test something that weak as i normally work with much higher power levels, but could be worth a shot.

BFSL

Skatedude wrote: »

I may haver the equipment to test the power levels as i'm a laser technician, but it may not test something that weak as i normally work with much higher power levels, but could be worth a shot.

There is no need to test them, all lasers should have their power rating printed on them by law.

conor-mr2

This is great news!! Fair play Derek!!

I can now put a proper laser on my mk23 instead of the piece of crap it currently has!!

o1s1n

BFSL wrote: »

There is no need to test them, all lasers should have their power rating printed on them by law.

The power printed on the label is not necessarily always the exact same as the power being outputted. It's not so much a problem with quality brands (which im sure you are stocking) as it is for cheaper ones. It's like what we seen in airsoft. You can get cheap chinese clones that are outputting waaaaaaay over what's on the box. Cheaper chinese lasers are known to have similar issues. I think if you're going to be pointing anything at other people at a skirmish then they should be tested to make sure they fall within the legal and safe level. It just makes sense really.

But anyway, cheers for the scan guys!. Be great to get this sorted once and for all.

iceage

Question guys, and before I start I'm not really a fan of lasers (red blinky things flashing in my face) how do we test them? is there a "chrono" or some equivalent test for power output? or do we just go by whats on the label, again forgive me for my ignorance on this one.

Masada

there is a test that will tell ya how powerful it is., i have no idea how it works though., i imagine it would be expencive to get the "chrono" so to speak.

ED E

From a google first glance they seem to cost around $1500 and up!

Stercus Accidit

Shine it in your eye for 5 minutes, and if you go blind, don't use it in a game.

Simple.

:pac:

CrazyRabbit

Some muppet in Duncannon was selling super-cheapsoft airsoft (I use that term loosely) AEG's to everyone and anyone. Quite a few of the €7 ones had lasers on them. I must have had half-a-dozen lasers shun in my eyes over the weekend.

Annoying : Yes, very much so. I don't like them being shun at me.
Dangerous : Nope, unless I was balancing somewhere dangerous..say, like the 60 foot drop at the edge of the fort.

Lemming

Ok, I'm back from a few days away, got gazillions of mail to check and this is the first thread I've read since it's a charter request.

I will read this threa in full along with the attached document; have a word with a few other mods for their thoughts on wording,e tc. and then have something to show soon regarding Derek's request.


[edit: I'm referring to the airsoft adverts forum charter ... sorry ... brain no worky very well right now]

BFSL

o1s1n wrote: »

The power printed on the label is not necessarily always the exact same as the power being outputted. It's not so much a problem with quality brands (which im sure you are stocking) as it is for cheaper ones. It's like what we seen in airsoft. You can get cheap chinese clones that are outputting waaaaaaay over what's on the box. to be Cheaper chinese lasers are known to have similar issues. I think if you're goingpointing anything at other people at a skirmish then they should be tested to make sure they fall within the legal and safe level. It just makes sense really.

But anyway, cheers for the scan guys!. Be great to get this sorted once and for all.

As far I am concerned it is sorted, a good quality laser is cheap to buy so why buy a

o1s1n wrote: »

cheaper Chinese laser.

I have not heard of high power cheap Chinese lasers and I don't think any Chinese companies would use more expensive materials to produce such lasers.
It is cheap put a larger spring into a product, but to put higher quality components into an even cheaper product such as a laser, would not be viable and the Chinese only use cheap components. All said and done, the issue was not about what could be used, it's about what can be used legally, after that the law takes over and it is not our place to enforce the law only obey it

Masada

heres one thats 4 times the legal limit or there abouts for only 12 yoyo's.
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.7862

I like the idea of having a real functioning LAM but i cant see myself actually using the laser much, just a fancy novelty really.,

BFSL

vtec wrote: »

heres one thats 4 times the legal limit or there abouts for only 12 yoyo's.
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.7862

I like the idea of having a real functioning LAM but i cant see myself actually using the laser much, just a fancy novelty really.,

easily recognizable in the field, its green and it will still have the power levels on the label, but as I said, this is not the issue the issue was about what was and is legal to use. it also says this, similar power to True 5mw, but cheaper, 5MW are legal and this laser is only similar in power

Cons: Around 5mw

BFSL

If you look at the reviews on these cheap pointer lasers you will see that they are hyped up to sell them, the chinese think that if they say bigger, better, stronger etc, that people will buy them, and that might be true, but they don't realise that some people can't buy them for legal reasons so they lose that side of the market.

Necron99

Just a little foot note I think everyone should be made aware of "Red Laser Pointers" are very safe to use, I've read a few transcripts of studies done with 5 milli watts from the Mayo Clinic in the USA,
However the Green lasers are of a shorter wavelength which can damage the eye.

So I'd just like to avoid any fuss from the get go on this

Red = Good
Green = Bad
(who'd have ever thought of that lol)

Edit: heres one of the transcripts for your own perusal
http://www.mayoclinic.org/news2005-rst/2800.html

If your wondering why I did research into this, the answer is simple. I paid alot of money so I could see with better than 20/20 vision and I'll be damned if I loose it from carelessness.

BFSL

Any news from the MODS on the charter change?

Tommyboy71

Necron99 wrote: »

If your wondering why I did research into this, the answer is simple. I paid alot of money so I could see with better than 20/20 vision and I'll be damned if I loose it from carelessness.

Same here.

SniperSight

Necron99 wrote: »

So I'd just like to avoid any fuss from the get go on this

Red = Good
Green = Bad
(who'd have ever thought of that lol)

Damn, I have enough trouble remembering traffic lights without having to remember this!!:p:p

BFSL

Am I to assume that the charter is changed?

Rew

Ok the charter has changed. We consulted the admins and they were of the opinion that mounatbe lasers may or may not be illeagle but talking about it wasn't.

My personal reading of the relevent documents is that the DoJ them selfs dont know and they have avodied a definitive answer. I think the real crux of the issue is wheather or not the part of the law that refers to "scopes that emit a beam of light" means lasers or not.

Anyway everyone is now free to bash it out to their hearts content.

Alvin T. Grey

Bugger.
Now I that can talk about them. - I find that there is nothing to say......


Hate that.

llort

im a newbie here so am unfarmiliar of the ins and outs regarding the legality of lasers, especially their power levels and the mounting of same to it be ok airsoft device.

would it be ok to hot melt glue this to my mac and rip people out of it at HRTA or would i have to buy a propper mount, ie fit for the purpose?

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.12806

Genghiz Cohen

llort wrote: »

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.12806

Awwwww Cool
Blue laser FTW!
Is it legal though, no.
The spectrum goes -To put it simply-:
Red Green Blue

So if red a legal and green are not, you can bet your last penny blue are illegal.

Which is a shame....

(Unless the bit about being designed to be mounted comes into effect, the one above isn't)