Prius and VRT

JHMEG

Cyrus wrote: »

ok, i get it that you are annoyed that you were wrong but dont get snappy :pac:

what it has to do with it, as you we

Nah, you're still missing the point. Point is: one test has no method and is badly done. The other does and is fully explained and comprehensively well done. I would chose to ignore the badly done one.

You adding in what your M3 does has nothing to do with it. (Car may be fast, not so sure about the driver.)

JHMEG

E92 wrote: »

The 520d is a much bigger car and it still was shown by the Sunday Times that the Prius is less of a miser on the fuel.

Give it a rest will ya. The test was immediately flawed as the two cars had different drivers. Until I see it proven scientifically I'm consigning it to the bull**** bin.

Cyrus

im getting a bit annoyed at the veiled digs to be honest, youve never even met me, and how fast i drive is a) not something you could know and b) none of your business.

I am just taking a piece of fact in total isolation and showing that it proves nothing. obviously my mpg of over 30 is on a motor way with no incline at 70 mph. obviously my combined mpg is a lot lower, circa 19-22 over 1000 miles or so.

saying that the hybrid thingy does 90mpg at a constant lowish speed means nothing as nobody can drive at a constant speed like that, its not a real world test.

Didnt e92 have a test where it showed an ED bmw 520d out priusing the prius. i suppose that doesnt count :rolleyes:

ninty9er

E92 wrote: »

A Prius is no more spacious than a Focus

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

There's someone that's never been in the back seat of either. Or if he has he's not more than 5' 10"

A Prius is DEFINITELY bigger than a Focus. The boot in the Focus saloon might catcht the Prius on size, but it'd be close.

ninty9er

Cyrus wrote: »

Didnt e92 have a test where it showed an ED bmw 520d out priusing the prius. i suppose that doesnt count :rolleyes:

He could show a test with a 760iL ED emitting less CO2 than a pushbike. Doesn't mean it's true:rolleyes:

Cyrus

ninty9er wrote: »

He could show a test with a 760iL ED emitting less CO2 than a pushbike. Doesn't mean it's true:rolleyes:

well here it is again, read it

http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/driving/used_car_reviews/article3552994.ece

and stop believing all this waffle about hybrids

:rolleyes: yourself

JHMEG

Cyrus wrote: »

well here it is again, read it

You'd need to be gullible to believe that garbage. The comparison is worthless as there were two different drivers. Go read some proper stuff will ya.

While your at it Cyrus you might tell us how you reckon it's all waffle? Lots of personal experience at driving hybrids? (I'll wager you have no experience at all)

Cyrus

Why is it garbage? Because you don't like its findings? And two different drivers render it null and void? Despite the fact the guy in the prius turned off his radio and ac to maximise mpg and the bmw driver didn't. And no i've never driven a hybrid nor do i have interest unless its something interesting! But you obviously haven't driven an m3 but it didn't stop you making a false statement of fact being that one could never do better than 19mpg! ! I'm sure there will be more tests done comparing hybrids to ed bmw's and lets see how it goes you'd rather just belive the hype for now it seems

JHMEG wrote: »

You'd need to be gullible to believe that garbage. The comparison is worthless as there were two different drivers. Go read some proper stuff will ya.

While your at it Cyrus you might tell us how you reckon it's all waffle? Lots of personal experience at driving hybrids? (I'll wager you have no experience at all)

E92

JHMEG wrote: »

Give it a rest will ya. The test was immediately flawed as the two cars had different drivers. Until I see it proven scientifically I'm consigning it to the bull**** bin.

You mean that when they turned off the aircon in the Prius and the radio, as well as leaving those things on in the BMW, where they spent 80% of the test in conditions that would favour the Toyota(there is absolutely no question that the 40% of the time spent in traffic was playing right into the hands of the Prius), and where and I quote they "had to slow down to let the Prius catch up" on the Motorway, and STILL the 520d was more frugal that it was "flawed". The only flaw is that you don't like the result!

That the fact it was a BMW above all else that beat a hybrid is clouding your judgement. You never question the authority of those who get good mpg figures from hybrids though do you;)?

Fear not, we're getting a new 520d in July, which is mechanically identical to the one used in the aforementioned Sunday Times test, so I'll be able to report just how frugal it is in about 2 months time when we've it properly run in:)!

@ninty9er:The Prius is no more capacious than a Focus, and yes I have sat in both. I'm far from the tallest person in the world but I certainly don't remember having a lot of legroom in one.

And there is a difference of 23 litres in boot size for the hatchback, while the Focus saloon makes minced meat of the Prius's boot at 526 litres(408 for the Prius), which is bigger than amongst others, the Avensis and only 9 less than the much larger Mondeo.

When it comes to economy tests, I can't blame the testers for finding out whatever they find. You'd swear I personally pay them to make BMW look as good as possible with some of the nonsense going around here:rolleyes:.

JHMEG

Cyrus wrote: »

Why is it garbage? Because you don't like its findings? And two different drivers render it null and void?

Where is the balance in the test? The drivers could have swapped cars half way through, but they didn't. Bottom line is you can choose to blindly believe figures without questioning them. You missed the 19mpg thing: I read it somewhere, and I chose to blindly believe it.

E92 wrote:

You mean that when they turned off the aircon in the Prius and the radio, as well as leaving those things on in the BMW,

Which makes me wonder why they even did the test, if they're not going to do it fairly.

I don't question those who get good figures from hybrids because I'm one of them, so why would I??! In fact our figures are so good that I recently bought another one!

Cyrus

so what was your average consumption over the 90000 km with the civic then?

JHMEG

Cyrus wrote: »

so what was your average consumption over the 90000 km with the civic then?

Euro spec IMAs don't have a lifetime mpg counter. I would hazard a guess that my average is between 60 and 65mpg. It goes as high as 74 and as low as 52.

JHMEG

Toyota's reaction to the Times story here:

Diesel Power Vs. Hybrid Synergy Drive: A Tie? Not Really.

There’s been a bit of Interweb buzz lately about a comparison done by London’s Sunday Times between a Toyota Prius and a diesel-powered BMW 5-Series sedan.

The two vehicles were driven from London to Geneva covering a total of about 545 miles - doubtless a fairly interesting jaunt. About 100 of those miles were urban miles where the Prius could operate in an optimal environment, and about 445 of them were suburban miles where the BMW would have the advantage.

Over this distance the Prius averaged 48.1 mpg while the BMW diesel averaged 50.3 mpg.

We hear you Prius skeptics saying, "Ahah!" Yes, the Bimmer bested the Prius by a whole 2.2 mpg.

But that’s not all there is to the story. The Times story, which you can see by clicking here, listed not only the cost of fuel for both cars, but the cost of the vehicles themselves, including their respective road-tax bills. And it is when pondering these numbers that we gain critical perspective.

In traveling from London to Geneva, the BMW’s diesel fuel bill was ₤54.19, while the bill for the Prius’s Unleaded gas was ₤54.64. At today’s rate of exchange between the dollar and the pound of about two to one, that’s $108 spent on diesel fuel and $109 spent on Unleaded.

So, OK, a difference of a buck? Call that a draw.

But this is a tie that’s easy to break. List price for that BMW 5-Series diesel in Britain is ₤27,190, and that doesn’t include a road tax of ₤115.

List in Britain for the Prius is ₤20,677. Road tax for the Prius is just ₤15.

Beyond costs, the Times failed to address the vastly superior performance of the Prius on emissions other than CO2 – you know, those things like particulates and oxides of nitrogen that cause human health issues. Here the Prius shines, with a quarter the particulate level and less than a 10th the NOx of the BMW. We believe that these lower levels are important.

So maybe we’re missing something here, but it looks to us as though, when all costs are considered, the Prius is markedly less expensive to own and operate, about even on CO2 and fuel costs, and markedly cleaner on other tailpipe emissions. We can’t really say that we’re surprised.

http://blog.toyota.com/2008/04/diesel-power-vs.html

pburns

JHMEG wrote: »

Toyota's reaction to the Times story here:

Diesel Power Vs. Hybrid Synergy Drive: A Tie? Not Really.

There’s been a bit of Interweb buzz lately about a comparison done by London’s Sunday Times between a Toyota Prius and a diesel-powered BMW 5-Series sedan.

The two vehicles were driven from London to Geneva covering a total of about 545 miles - doubtless a fairly interesting jaunt. About 100 of those miles were urban miles where the Prius could operate in an optimal environment, and about 445 of them were suburban miles where the BMW would have the advantage.

Over this distance the Prius averaged 48.1 mpg while the BMW diesel averaged 50.3 mpg.

We hear you Prius skeptics saying, "Ahah!" Yes, the Bimmer bested the Prius by a whole 2.2 mpg.

But that’s not all there is to the story. The Times story, which you can see by clicking here, listed not only the cost of fuel for both cars, but the cost of the vehicles themselves, including their respective road-tax bills. And it is when pondering these numbers that we gain critical perspective.

In traveling from London to Geneva, the BMW’s diesel fuel bill was ₤54.19, while the bill for the Prius’s Unleaded gas was ₤54.64. At today’s rate of exchange between the dollar and the pound of about two to one, that’s $108 spent on diesel fuel and $109 spent on Unleaded.

So, OK, a difference of a buck? Call that a draw.

But this is a tie that’s easy to break. List price for that BMW 5-Series diesel in Britain is ₤27,190, and that doesn’t include a road tax of ₤115.

List in Britain for the Prius is ₤20,677. Road tax for the Prius is just ₤15.

Beyond costs, the Times failed to address the vastly superior performance of the Prius on emissions other than CO2 – you know, those things like particulates and oxides of nitrogen that cause human health issues. Here the Prius shines, with a quarter the particulate level and less than a 10th the NOx of the BMW. We believe that these lower levels are important.

So maybe we’re missing something here, but it looks to us as though, when all costs are considered, the Prius is markedly less expensive to own and operate, about even on CO2 and fuel costs, and markedly cleaner on other tailpipe emissions. We can’t really say that we’re surprised.

http://blog.toyota.com/2008/04/diesel-power-vs.html

So a tinny little Prius is less expensive to own/run than a large, comfortable class-leading executive car. :rolleyes:

It's seems you've bought into all the hybrid claptrap (no doubt helped by blind devotion to the Honda badge) and are desperate to prove their merits! And you're totally over-egging the fact that the cars had different drivers...

No doubt the fact that the other car is one of Bavaria's rubs salt in the wound!

Soarer

Jaysus, what have I started! :eek:

I started this thread with what I thought was a simple enough question, but it's obviously gathered legs along the way.
I know most of the pro/cons of Petrol/Diesel/Hybrids, and tbh on the whole mpg thing between diesel/hybrid, we're talking about varying degrees of brilliance.

I'm gonna do this for comparison sake. Car to be VRT'd after July 1st. Gonna use xe.com for exact conversion. Gonna use todays OMSP to calculate July's VRT rate, and use June as the original registration date.

My current budget is around €13k-€14k.
I have my eye on a 05 Prius in the UK. It's a T-Spirit model, so it's top spec. 67k miles, FTSH, Sat Nav, etc. Asking price is £9950, so lets say £10k. That's €12690.30.
Current OMSP is €21127.
VRT in July is 14% of €21127 = €2957.78.
There's a €1750 rebate on the VRT, so VRT = €1207.78.
Total to purchase and register is €13898.08.
Roadtax will be €343 a year.

The cheapest 05 520d I can find in Autotrader.co.uk is the following:
SE Model, 120k miles, FSH, Sat Nav, etc. Asking price is £12450, so let's say £12500. That's €15870.02.
Current OMSP is €34016.
VRT in July is 24% of €34016 = €8163.84.
There's no VRT rebate.
Total to purchase and register is €24033.86
Roadtax will be €590 a year.

So that's a saving of €10135.78 buying the Prius over the 520d.

Getting back to the efficiency thing.
Prius tank is 45 litres, and the BMW tank is 70 litres.
Petrol is around 130c a litre, with diesel being around 10c a litre dearer at 140c a litre. So it's €58.50 and €98 to fill repectively.
Now I can't quite figure out how many miles I'd have to travel to make the 520 to work out better (maybe some kind sod on here can work it out), but it'd certainly be a lot more than I currently do.

So even though both cars have their pros and cons, I reckon the Prius suits my needs better. It's cheaper to buy, cheaper to run, has a higher ncap rating, and is less polluting.
Plus (as he puts on his flameproof suit) I've always liked the look of the Prius. :cool:

JHMEG

pburns wrote: »

So a tinny little Prius is less expensive to own/run than a large, comfortable class-leading executive car.

Yes the Prius is cheaper to own and run.

pburns wrote:

No doubt the fact that the other car is one of Bavaria's rubs salt in the wound!

Eh?

Soarer

pburns wrote: »

So a tinny little Prius is less expensive to own/run than a large, comfortable class-leading executive car. :rolleyes:

Well since the base model 520d is €46k and the base model Prius is €30k, you'd expect there to be more substance to it wouldn't you? I mean, people wouldn't be buying the BMW for the badge now, would they?

To be fair to JHMEG, it was E92 that, shockingly enough, started banging on about the greatness that is the 520d, and also brought up the Times' comparison test. JHMEG is perfectly entitled to question the validity of the test, especially when you see the information in his post about Toyota's reaction to said test.

JHMEG

Soarer wrote: »

Total to purchase and register is €13898.08.
Total to purchase and register is €24033.86

The €10,000 or so difference in purchase price will get you about 100,000 miles in the Prius. Case closed.

javaboy

Disclosure: My dad works for Toyota. Yes I probably am biased.

Now that that's out of they way. That 'study' E92 constantly brings up comparing the 520d to the Prius isn't worth anything.

E92 wrote:

You mean that when they turned off the aircon in the Prius and the radio, as well as leaving those things on in the BMW, where they spent 80% of the test in conditions that would favour the Toyota(there is absolutely no question that the 40% of the time spent in traffic was playing right into the hands of the Prius), and where and I quote they "had to slow down to let the Prius catch up" on the Motorway, and STILL the 520d was more frugal that it was "flawed". The only flaw is that you don't like the result!

If the result had come out that the Prius got 70mpg and the 520d got 50mpg what would happen? People would immediately say well the BMW had aircon and radio on so it's not a fair comparison. That sets off alarm bells in my head that the whole approach to the contest was biased towards making the Prius look bad. Anyone seriously interested in comparing these two cars would not be influenced by this.

I'm not arguing that the Prius does better mileage than the 520d or vice versa. I'm sure in different conditions each can be shown to be better. I just hate when people use seriously flawed studies to base their arguments on.

pburns wrote:

So a tinny little Prius is less expensive to own/run than a large, comfortable class-leading executive car.

It's seems you've bought into all the hybrid claptrap (no doubt helped by blind devotion to the Honda badge) and are desperate to prove their merits! And you're totally over-egging the fact that the cars had different drivers...

No doubt the fact that the other car is one of Bavaria's rubs salt in the wound!

Prius=tiny? You might be thinking of the Yaris maybe?

JHMEG had a Civic hybrid and was so happy with it that he bought another one. To buy one might say he bought into all the 'hybrid claptrap' but to buy a second tells me that he was impressed enough by his experience to get another one.

And I don't know about being desperate to prove their methods but as far as I can see this is a thread about a hybrid car and E92 was the first one to bring up the 520d vs Prius review. JHMEG was just pointing out that the study was seriously flawed. Which it was.

Now back on topic

Soarer

javaboy wrote: »

Now back on topic

We haven't been on topic since page one!

E92

Soarer wrote: »

it was E92 that, shockingly enough, started banging on about the greatness that is the 520d

Where did I go on about how "great" the 520d is?

All I said quite truthfully is that the Sunday Times found it to be more economical than the Prius in a test where 40% of the time was in town, 40% was on country roads and 20% was on a Motorway.

I never said anything about how good, bad or indifferent the 520d is anywhere in this thread, other than that it was shown to be more frugal than a Prius.

Why does everything I say come with a sense of "oh E92 said something good about BMW. E92 has a user name derived from a BMW product. He therefore is talking sh!te even when he uses facts and figures to back up his arguments".

javaboy

E92 wrote: »

Where did I go on about how "great" the 520d is?

All I said quite truthfully is that the Sunday Times found it to be more economical than the Prius in a test where 40% of the time was in town, 40% was on country roads and 20% was on a Motorway.

I never said anything about how good, bad or indifferent the 520d is anywhere in this thread, other than that it was shown to be more frugal than a Prius.

Why does everything I say come with a sense of "oh E92 said something good about BMW. E92 has a user name derived from a BMW product. He therefore is talking sh!te even when he uses facts and figures to back up his arguments".

Fair enough. But you and I know both know that the people doing that 'test' set out to get a particular result. If they wanted the Prius to get the better result they could have done it quite easily. I just don't think that particular test can be considered as 'facts and figures' because the methods of testing were so dodgy.

Zube

I notice that Toyota did not say that the test was unfair or the results flawed, they called it a draw on economy.

JHMEG

javaboy wrote: »

Fair enough. But you and I know both know that the people doing that 'test' set out to get a particular result.

And for the same reason when people want to 'prove' something, they will quote the one dodgy test that backs them up.

Zube wrote:

I notice that Toyota did not say that the test was unfair or the results flawed, they called it a draw on economy.

If they said the test was flawed, people would accuse them of being sore losers, even tho the Prius does better on the bottom line (in a flawed test).

OTK

Soarer wrote: »

My current budget is around €13k-€14k.
I have my eye on a 05 Prius in the UK. It's a T-Spirit model, so it's top spec. 67k miles, FTSH, Sat Nav, etc. Asking price is £9950, so lets say £10k. That's €12690.30.
Current OMSP is €21127.
VRT in July is 14% of €21127 = €2957.78.
There's a €1750 rebate on the VRT, so VRT = €1207.78.
Total to purchase and register is €13898.08.
Roadtax will be €343 a year.

edit: misread your post

You road tax will be €100

E92

javaboy wrote: »

Fair enough. But you and I know both know that the people doing that 'test' set out to get a particular result. If they wanted the Prius to get the better result they could have done it quite easily. I just don't think that particular test can be considered as 'facts and figures' because the methods of testing were so dodgy.

I'm afriad I disagree there.

If they wanted to play it straight into the BMW's hands they would have left the aircon either on or off in both cars(actually because the Prius's aircon is electric it makes no difference to emissions wheth it's on or off) and similarly the radio. The BMW was at a disadvantage because both were left on.

The quickest way to get there was to go all the way down the Motorway, but obviously that wopuld have played straight into the 520d's hands. So they didn't, and instead they went on windy country roads where you wouldn't be going as fast and even went into towns that they had no reason to go into.

Even then it was less of a miser at the pumps than a car that is officially 10.3 mpg less economical(though it still managed to be a lower polluter of CO2 because every litre of diesel burned produces 13% more CO2 than every litre of petrol, in other words a diesel that does 56.5 mpg is as good for your carbon footprinit as a petrol that does 50 mpg).

As for Toyota being concerned about PM, NOx etc, I presume they "forgot" that they sell diesels that are just as guilty of the same charge as the 520d? If you look at this page you will see that the 1.4 D-4D Corolla pollutes nearly 7 times more NOx than the 1.6 petrol and of course all those particulates that Toyota claim to be bothered about too. The word hypocracy springs to mind.

What I've never seen is a test of a Toyota diesel versus a Toyota hybrid. Now that would unquestionably be the fairest comparison by a mile:)!

ninty9er

OTK wrote: »

edit: misread your post

You road tax will be €100

No it won't! He's not buying a '08 Prius.

javaboy

E92 wrote: »

I'm afriad I disagree there.

If they wanted to play it straight into the BMW's hands they would have left the aircon either on or off in both cars(actually because the Prius's aircon is electric it makes no difference to emissions wheth it's on or off) and similarly the radio. The BMW was at a disadvantage because both were left on.

But why was there a difference in the aircon and radio settings at all? There are three possible results from this test. This is how I think the three outcomes might be viewed by some people:

520>Prius - Fair enough the BMW is better than the Prius
520=Prius - Ah but would the BMW have won if the aircon was off?
520<Prius - If this was the outcome I would rightly say that's not fair on the BMW because of the aircon.

It seems to me that driving two cars halfway across Europe in a test where two of the three possible outcomes would be hotly disputed is a bit pointless.

If it was a real test then there would be no reason for any different settings between cars and the drivers would have been swapped regularly to eliminate the effects of different driving styles. It wasn't a real test in the same way as the things they do on Top Gear aren't real tests.

Anyway I'm out of this thread. If you want to go to another thread with it cool. But we're dragging the OP's thread way off topic. Sorry OP.

joolsveer

Hi all. Just came across this thread.

I had a 24 hour test drive in a Prius last year. I reported in another thread at the time that I averaged about 70 mpg on a normal Dublin pattern of driving - urban, suburban and motorway. I used the radio and air conditioning. I also drove my own car (Renault Mégane 1.6 auto hatchback) over the same trip. My car averaged about 25 mpg and I had both radio and air conditioning on. I was very impressed with the frugality of the Prius.

I was not impressed with the tinniness of the Prius compared to the Mégane (I expected that Toyota build quality would be better than Spanish). The boot appeared a lot smaller too.

Soarer

OTK wrote: »

edit: misread your post

You road tax will be €100

I actually think it'll be €146 a year, as opposed to the €100 you said and the €343 I said.

Every little helps!