Westwood for Ireland?

djpbarry · 22-05-2008 10:09am #1

Apologies if this has already been brought up elsewhere...

There has been some fairly stern criticism of the decision of the Irish management team to draft Kieran Westwood into the current squad:

http://www.eleven-a-side.com/boysingreen/news.asp?n=32355

Admittedly, I know very little about the guy and I've never seen him play. However, I find it hard to believe that a guy playing in the English third tier is good enough to play for Ireland.

Death or Glory · 22-05-2008 10:14am

He played a blinder in the first leg of the playoffs against us at Elland Road last week, made 3 or 4 genuine world class saves, one of which was one of the greatest saves I've ever seen.

Young, brash, confident, with just the right amount of cockiness. He was in the League One team of the season aswell.

Would like to see us sign him for next season in Championship after we beat Donny on sunday

mise · 22-05-2008 11:15am

Ive only seen him in the Play-Offs too, and the three saves in the 1st leg were amazing. Especially tipping beckford shot around the corner..

I have no problem with him playing for Ireland at all

djpbarry · 22-05-2008 11:48am

Death or Glory wrote: »

Young, brash, confident, with just the right amount of cockiness.

You got all that from Sky? Wow - they must be really outdoing themselves with the stats these days.

mise wrote: »

Ive only seen him in the Play-Offs too, and the three saves in the 1st leg were amazing. Especially tipping beckford shot around the corner..

I have no problem with him playing for Ireland at all

It seems everyone (Alan Kelly included) is basing their opinion of this guy on one or two games against Leeds?

It's not that I have a problem with the guy playing for Ireland, per se. But, correct me if I'm wrong, I've read that this guy recently described himself as "not Irish as such". Shortly afterwards he's in the Ireland squad ahead of several decent home-based keepers. One such keeper, Brian Murphy, played with Westwood at Manchester City and seems to be of the opinion that there are better players in our own league.

Death or Glory · 22-05-2008 12:13pm

Originally Posted by djpbarry

You got all that from Sky? Wow - they must be really outdoing themselves with the stats these days.

Errrr... No. I've seen him 8 or 9 times this season, and I've seen and read numerous interviews with him.

Football does exist outside the prem, you know

mise · 22-05-2008 12:36pm

When it comes down to it my opinion of him doesn't really matter at all. What I have seen of him, Ive been impressed. And hes in the League 1 team of the year so it seems hes a fairly consistent performer..

djpbarry · 22-05-2008 2:00pm

Death or Glory wrote: »

I've seen him 8 or 9 times this season...

Fair enough.

Death or Glory wrote: »

Football does exist outside the prem, you know

I'm actually not a fan of the EPL, but I'm not going to take the thread down that route.

mise wrote: »

What I have seen of him, Ive been impressed. And hes in the League 1 team of the year so it seems hes a fairly consistent performer..

Fair enough. But personally, I think a call-up from the U21's, U23's or 'B' setup was warranted. Now admittedly, most of those keepers are either unavailable due to injury (Quigley, Supple, Connor) or are in Malaysia with the U21's (Randolph and Redmond), but the two keepers in the last U23 squad (Murphy and Clarke) are both available.

Death or Glory · 22-05-2008 2:21pm

I wasn't having a pop, all I'm saying is I've seen him a few times and have been genuinely impressed, and I think he'll make it at a much higher level. Nothing seems to phase him and I think he's got everything a top goalkeeper should have

Seaneh · 22-05-2008 2:26pm

Westwood is a damned good young keeper, he was available, in form and damnit, why not give him a chance?

I'd rather him than Stack/Randoulph/Murphy/Clark any day.

djpbarry · 22-05-2008 2:51pm

Seaneh wrote: »

Westwood is a damned good young keeper, he was available, in form and damnit, why not give him a chance?

I could say exactly the same thing about either Brian or Barry Murphy.

Reganio 2 · 22-05-2008 3:09pm

Personnaly I have never seen him play but, he is only 23 and Shay Given is pushing on a bit and hasn't been his usual self this season. We also have the Scunthorpe keeper and the Birmingham reserves keeper as the main threats for the No.1 jersey so why not give him a chance.

bohsman · 22-05-2008 5:54pm

Im not Irish but Im catholic.

Mikeyt086 · 22-05-2008 5:57pm

You find it hard to belive someone playing in the English 3rd tier is good enough for Ireland?

Thats really unfair, hes very young for a keeper and everyone had to start somewhere. Would you have said that about Roy Keane when he was playing for Comh Ramblers?

Mitch Connor · 22-05-2008 6:05pm

Wasn't Ben Foster on loan at a league two side United signed him?

vorbis · 22-05-2008 6:37pm

I thing people are missing the main point. No one's saying he's a ****e player. But he's playing in the English third division for gods sake! Our own Eircom league is a higher level than that. An El keeper should be called up before someone from the english third tier.

If Westwood is as good as people say then he'll get a move to a bigger club. Once he's in the Championship or Premiership then he should get a call up.

Bounty Hunter · 22-05-2008 6:38pm

Re Foster: Wrexham were the last of 5 or 6 teams he was on loan with after Stoke i think before United signed him. did Wrexham have a great cup run or something? I cant really remember what got him signed, but he seemed to be highly rated immediatley.

hopefully Westwood is just as good. lets wait and see

bohsman · 22-05-2008 6:43pm

Brian Murphy summed it up fairly well here - http://www.eleven-a-side.com/boysingreen/news.asp?n=32341

Bohs star slams Westwood decision

May 19, 2008

Bohemians goalkeeper Brian Murphy has slammed the decision of Republic of Ireland manager Giovanni Trapattoni to call up Carlisle United’s Kieran Westwood ahead of any home-based players.

Westwood, who hails from Manchester and qualifies for Ireland through his grandmother, was added to the Irish squad on Saturday as a late replacement for injured Birmingham City netminder Colin Doyle.

But Murphy, regarded as one of the best keepers in the League of Ireland since joining Bohs from Swansea last year, feels the decision is a “piss-take”.

He told the Irish Daily Star: “I’m not saying I should be picked in it but it’s amazing that two days before, there is something in the paper about [Westwood] saying he’s not Irish as such but he’s a Catholic – and then he’s in the squad.

“For any lad that always wanted to play for Ireland, it’s probably a bit of a piss-take. It’s frustrating for any player in this league to see Joe Soaps coming into the squad.”

Bounty Hunter · 22-05-2008 6:45pm

vorbis wrote: »

I thing people are missing the main point. No one's saying he's a ****e player. But he's playing in the English third division for gods sake! Our own Eircom league is a higher level than that. An El keeper should be called up before someone from the english third tier.

If Westwood is as good as people say then he'll get a move to a bigger club. Once he's in the Championship or Premiership then he should get a call up.

we should recognise a players quality and not the club/league they play in. Yes its obvious a player getting his game for a top prem team should be quality but those players have to come from somewhere. The Irish set-up just like these clubs have people out scouting Irish talent (even if it doesent seem like it) If we spot players before them who are good enough we shouldent have to wait for a good club to sign them before calling them up. Be it Westwood, a EL player, a Blue square prem player or whoever it shouldent matter if they are good enough, eligable and want to play... then they should be called up full stop.

Death or Glory · 22-05-2008 7:00pm

vorbis wrote: »

I thing people are missing the main point. No one's saying he's a ****e player. But he's playing in the English third division for gods sake! Our own Eircom league is a higher level than that. An El keeper should be called up before someone from the english third tier.

If Westwood is as good as people say then he'll get a move to a bigger club. Once he's in the Championship or Premiership then he should get a call up.

That's gotta be a wind up, surely? I've watched League One all season, but even someone with just a passing interest would know that teams like Swansea, Forest, Carlisle, Donny and Leeds, not to mention the likes of Huddersfield, Tranmere, Southend and Hartlepool, would p*ss all over anything the EL has to offer

estebancambias · 22-05-2008 7:46pm

Death or Glory wrote: »

That's gotta be a wind up, surely? I've watched League One all season, but even someone with just a passing interest would know that teams like Swansea, Forest, Carlisle, Donny and Leeds, not to mention the likes of Huddersfield, Tranmere, Southend and Hartlepool, would p*ss all over anything the EL has to offer

Nope. Perhaps instead of watching crappy League One you should watch Irish football all season.

I would say if you put a League of Ireland Select vs a League one select, the Eircom team would win more often than not.

My only problem is that he said ''I'd consider playing for Ireland''.....no no no Westwood, We would consider you playing for Ireland''

I know what he meant about not being Irish as such, he was just pointing out that although I wasn't born in Ireland I am able through parentage.

I know for a fact Murphy rejected many offers to go play in Championship.

Death or Glory · 22-05-2008 8:06pm

estebancambias wrote: »

Nope. Perhaps instead of watching crappy League One you should watch Irish football all season.

I would say if you put a League of Ireland Select vs a League one select, the Eircom team would win more often than not.

My only problem is that he said ''I'd consider playing for Ireland''.....no no no Westwood, We would consider you playing for Ireland''

I know what he meant about not being Irish as such, he was just pointing out that although I wasn't born in Ireland I am able through parentage.

I know for a fact Murphy rejected many offers to go play in Championship.

I watch a lot of EL football, but from that statement I can see you haven't a clue about League One football.

But yep, you're right, an Eircom XI would beat a CC L1 XI :rolleyes:

DSB · 22-05-2008 9:27pm

The lad isn't Irish. He shouldn't play for Ireland.

estebancambias · 22-05-2008 9:44pm

But DSB he is Irish. He's got his passport. The problem shouldn't be where he is born, but rather if he feels a connection to the team...i.e McGeady.

I welcome any player who wants to play for Ireland with open arms, but if the player ''considers playing'' for my country than I have severe objections.

Maby this is what you mean?

DSB · 22-05-2008 9:46pm

estebancambias wrote: »

But DSB he is Irish. He's got his passport. The problem shouldn't be where he is born, but rather if he feels a connection to the team...i.e McGeady.

I welcome any player who wants to play for Ireland with open arms, but if the player ''considers playing'' for my country than I have severe objections.

Maby this is what you mean?

Well I guess I'm in the middle. If someone has Irish parents, they are somewhat Irish if they consider themselves so, then they're Irish. If they were born in Ireland or brought up in Ireland and consider themselves so then they're Irish. The Granny rule is bull**** though and this man has come out and said himself he doesn't consider himself Irish.

I'd definitely prefer an Irish team of Irish players, than a more successful side of players who aren't Irish but couldn't get into the English or Scottish sides so joined on a technicality.

estebancambias · 22-05-2008 10:00pm

DSB wrote: »

Well I guess I'm in the middle. If someone has Irish parents, they are somewhat Irish if they consider themselves so, then they're Irish. If they were born in Ireland or brought up in Ireland and consider themselves so then they're Irish. The Granny rule is bull**** though and this man has come out and said himself he doesn't consider himself Irish.

I'd definitely prefer an Irish team of Irish players, than a more successful side of players who aren't Irish but couldn't get into the English or Scottish sides so joined on a technicality.

I must say I like this viewpoint but I just couldn't accept it. The reason being is that I honestly feel its unfair to just exempt someone from the Irish squad because they happened to be born at the wrong time. Take this example of Kevin Kilbane(parents Irish). As a kid he wore the Ireland jersey and played hurling and basically had a strong sense of being Irish. But just imagine in hindsight he didn't make it as a pro, but his son did. Now Kevin Snr. brings Kevin Jnr. up with the same Irish tradition, and in a similar vein to Kevin Snr. he has a strong sense of Irish pride. However his problem is that his grandparents are only Irish. Is it fair they he can't get into the Ireland team?

I think the Granny rule has been abused(not so much anymore) but to abandon it would be unfair on people who continue to hold a strong pride in being Irish and in many cases are ''more Irish than the Irish themselves''

But then again, if there is such a sense of being Irish then the person in question should already hold dual citizenship. Maby that is what could be done in the future? If you haven't applied for a passport before the age of 20 you can't play for the country in question.

DSB · 22-05-2008 10:04pm

estebancambias wrote: »

I must say I like this viewpoint but I just couldn't accept it. The reason being is that I honestly feel its unfair to just exempt someone from the Irish squad because they happened to be born at the wrong time. Take this example of Kevin Kilbane(parents Irish). As a kid he wore the Ireland jersey and played hurling and basically had a strong sense of being Irish. But just imagine in hindsight he didn't make it as a pro, but his son did. Now Kevin Snr. brings Kevin Jnr. up with the same Irish tradition, and in a similar vein to Kevin Snr. he has a strong sense of Irish pride. However his problem is that his grandparents are only Irish. Is it fair they he can't get into the Ireland team?

I think the Granny rule has been abused(not so much anymore) but to abandon it would be unfair on people who continue to hold a strong pride in being Irish and in many cases are ''more Irish than the Irish themselves''

But then again, if there is such a sense of being Irish then the person in question should already hold dual citizenship. Maby that is what could be done in the future? If you haven't applied for a passport before the age of 20 you can't play for the country in question.

I really don't buy into the 'more Irish than the Irish themselves' idea. Being Irish can mean so many different things. Nationality really is a geographical thing. I could feel I was Jamaican all I wanted if I felt I believed in the Rastafarian ideals and lived my life by them. Wouldn't make me anymore Jamaican.

estebancambias · 22-05-2008 10:16pm

I disagree but I'm not able to counter it.

In my opinion I feel saying nationality is a geographical thing is sort of shallow. I know its fact but hell even Ath. Bilbao allow players who can claim Basque ancestry to play for them.

DSB · 22-05-2008 10:24pm

estebancambias wrote: »

I disagree but I'm not able to counter it.

In my opinion I feel saying nationality is a geographical thing is sort of shallow. I know its fact but hell even Ath. Bilbao allow players who can claim Basque ancestry to play for them.

But thats probably because Basque is alot more than a nationality. It isn't actually a nationality (yet, I think), moreso its a group of people from a nationality who associate themselves as being Basque. Again I understand what you're saying but strongly disagree.

estebancambias · 22-05-2008 10:32pm

DSB wrote: »

But thats probably because Basque is alot more than a nationality. It isn't actually a nationality (yet, I think), moreso its a group of people from a nationality who associate themselves as being Basque. Again I understand what you're saying but strongly disagree.

Crap...I thought my Basque comment won it for me.:D

Perhaps will have to agree to disagree?

SantryRed · 22-05-2008 10:34pm

Reason I disagree with im being called up is because it's just a random call up. Barely anyone, except maybe Leeds fans knew about him until the play off second leg. Fair enough he had a good game but who's to say he's consistent?

Brian Murphy should definitely of been called up ahead of him.

Bounty Hunter · 22-05-2008 10:39pm

none of these players will get a sniff of game time and when Given back neither will Kiely tbh.

mike65 · 22-05-2008 10:42pm

I'm just boggled some think EL beats League 1, EL = Conference.

Mike.

estebancambias · 22-05-2008 10:43pm

SantryRed wrote: »

Reason I disagree with im being called up is because it's just a random call up. Barely anyone, except maybe Leeds fans knew about him until the play off second leg. Fair enough he had a good game but who's to say he's consistent?

Brian Murphy should definitely of been called up ahead of him.

That is exactly my feelings...like we were desperate for him to play for us or something. Seriously he should be begging us to let him play.

estebancambias · 22-05-2008 10:47pm

mike65 wrote: »

I'm just boggled some think EL beats League 1, EL = Conference.

Mike.

Bull****.

If this was the case how do so many players get move to championship clubs? Look at Doyle for **** sake...he ripped up the Championship.

Fulham wanted Liam Kearney. Joe Gamble is a very good championship player. John Paul Kelly was Captain of the Liverpool youth team. The reason he left was because he was homesick...so yeah bull.

Could a conference club beat teams such as Malmo in a competitive outing?

DSB · 22-05-2008 10:54pm

mike65 wrote: »

I'm just boggled some think EL beats League 1, EL = Conference.

Mike.

You really seem clueless on the topic and are only embarassing yourself with such rubbish.

SantryRed · 22-05-2008 10:57pm

estebancambias wrote: »

Bull****.

If this was the case how do so many players get move to championship clubs? Look at Doyle for **** sake...he ripped up the Championship.

Fulham wanted Liam Kearney. Joe Gamble is a very good championship player. John Paul Kelly was Captain of the Liverpool youth team. The reason he left was because he was homesick...so yeah bull.

Could a conference club beat teams such as Malmo in a competitive outing?

Excellent post.

bohsman · 22-05-2008 11:12pm

stop feeding the trolls.

Death or Glory · 23-05-2008 7:35am

mike65 wrote: »

I'm just boggled some think EL beats League 1, EL = Conference.

Mike.

Well said

Xavi6 · 23-05-2008 7:41am

Death or Glory wrote: »

Well said

No it's not. Aside from Leeds, who are far too good for that sort of standard, what other team could a top eL club not have more than an excellent chance against?

Death or Glory · 23-05-2008 8:14am

Swansea, Notts Forest, Doncaster, Carlisle, Southend and even Tranmere from what I've seen this season are far far superior to anything the EL has to offer

djpbarry · 23-05-2008 9:09am

Death or Glory wrote: »

I've watched League One all season, but even someone with just a passing interest would know that teams like Swansea, Forest, Carlisle, Donny and Leeds, not to mention the likes of Huddersfield, Tranmere, Southend and Hartlepool, would p*ss all over anything the EL has to offer

Someone with a passing interest in League 1, the EL, or both?

mike65 wrote: »

I'm just boggled some think EL beats League 1, EL = Conference.

Lads, if the EL was such a poor standard, then we'd be seeing the top players here jump at the chance to play in, say, League 1. But that simply isn't the case. I can't see the likes of Keith Fahey or Dave Mooney signing for Cheltenham or Yeovil any time soon. It's rare these days that even a decent EL player will consider a move to any club outside the top two divisions in England or the top division in Scotland.

Look at it another way; it's quite common for EL players to represent Ireland at U21 level. How often do guys playing in the conference get a call-up?

Death or Glory · 23-05-2008 9:16am

No one said the EL was a poor standard, and I agree with your point about the likes of Cheltenham and Yeovil. But the teams I have mentioned are far superior to anything the EL has. And while I take the point about Kevin Doyle, for every one of him there's a George O'Callaghan who was an utter flop at Brighton (a League One team).

Also, League One has produced England Internationals in the past couple of years who are playing for much better teams and at much higher level (Ben Foster, Curtis Davis and to a lesser extent Jermaine Pennant)

podge018 · 23-05-2008 9:17am

Notts Forest, Swansea, Leeds/Doncaster are not League 1 standard, they're Championship standard as proved by their promotion. Top 6 of the eL would fill the top 10 positions of League 1.

mike65 · 23-05-2008 9:59am

Notts Forest, Swansea, Leeds/Doncaster are not League 1 standard, they're Championship standard as proved by their promotion.

Well thats one way of looking at it, they were presumably EL standard when they got relegated then.

Mike.

DSB · 23-05-2008 11:03am

Death or Glory wrote: »

Swansea, Notts Forest, Doncaster, Carlisle, Southend and even Tranmere from what I've seen this season are far far superior to anything the EL has to offer

Death or Glory · 23-05-2008 11:07am

You obviously don't watch League One so you really shouldn't comment. If you think an Eircom League team could go with any of the above you're sadly deluded

DSB · 23-05-2008 11:09am

Death or Glory wrote: »

You obviously don't watch League One so you really shouldn't comment. If you think an Eircom League team could go with any of the above you're sadly deluded

My best friend is a Leeds fan so I'm pretty much condemned to watching. Aside from Leeds, Swansea and Forest are the only sides up there with the Eircom League sides. The performances of Irish sides in Europe reflects that.

Death or Glory · 23-05-2008 11:18am

I'd include Doncaster, Southend, Carlisle and maybe Hartlepool and Tranmere. Even lower table League One teams such as Bristol Rovers and Huddersfield have turned over Prem sides this season.

SantryRed · 23-05-2008 11:18am

Death or Glory wrote: »

I'd include Doncaster, Southend, Carlisle and maybe Hartlepool and Tranmere. Even lower table League One teams such as Bristol Rovers and Huddersfield have turned over Prem sides this season.

ON one off days, who's to say Pats or Bohs wouldn't be able to do that either.

mike65 · 23-05-2008 11:22am

The performances of Irish sides in Europe reflects that.

How does it reflect? Sub Prem League sides will only play in Europe if they win one of two top domestic cups no? An EL side can get into the Wafer Cup by being the least worst of the league.

Mike.

DSB · 23-05-2008 11:26am

mike65 wrote: »

How does it reflect? Sub Prem League sides will only play in Europe if they win one of two top domestic cups no? An EL side can get into the Wafer Cup by being the least worst of the league.

Mike.

It has reflected how Irish sides have been stronger than sides from top tier leagues across Europe, in the shape of Shels, Cork and Derry.

League One has been hugely glamourised by the relegation of a club as big as Leeds.

Westwood for Ireland?

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