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Basis for no overtaking in the left lane ?

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2

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    #32
    peasant
    Registered Users Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    unkel wrote: »
    I admit to undertaking. ..


    While we are on Oprah :D

    Even I have undertaken someone illegaly ...in my bloody campervan :eek:

    I was either that, or burst a blood vessel


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    #33
    VH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 690 ✭✭✭VH


    colm_mcm wrote: »
    this suggestion that you can overtake on the left if the traffic on your right is going slower is ridiculous.
    Why, if it's done safely? Isn't it better than sitting there are 40mph because some twit 20 cars ahead won't drive any faster?
    unkel wrote:
    And to any remaining doubter out there with the ROTR clamped under their arm, in the situation described above on motorways, you can only undertake if traffic is crawling
    It actually says:

    Overtake only on the right, unless traffic is travelling in slow moving queues and the traffic queue on your right is travelling more slowly than you are.

    As I said already it doesn't define "slow".
    http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/motorways/on-the-motorway.html


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    #34
    peasant
    Registered Users Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    VH wrote: »
    Why, if it's done safely? Isn't it better than sitting there are 40mph because some twit 20 cars ahead won't drive any faster?


    It actually says:

    Overtake only on the right, unless traffic is travelling in slow moving queues and the traffic queue on your right is travelling more slowly than you are.

    As I said already it doesn't define "slow".
    http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/motorways/on-the-motorway.html

    It may not define "slow" but it does another thing ...it mentiones "queue" :D

    To the reasonable motorist, a queue is in place when it is no longer possible to quickly/safely cross from one lane into the other because cars are travelling so close together because they are driving ...yeees, you guessed it ...SLOWLY :D

    So, if the queue in the left happens to move faster than the one on the right, it is ok to pass out those cars ...it is not ok to "overtake" on the wrong side.


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    #35
    VH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 690 ✭✭✭VH


    peasant wrote: »
    So, if the queue in the left happens to move faster than the one on the right, it is ok to pass out those cars ...it is not ok to "overtake" on the wrong side.
    If performed safely in a situation like I outlined above, I couldn't see anyone getting pulled, never mind done, for doing it.


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    #36
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,794 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    peasant wrote: »
    Even I have undertaken someone illegaly ...in my bloody campervan :eek:

    Just the once? In what country did that happen?


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    #37
    peasant
    Registered Users Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    The problem is that it can't be done safely, for two reasons:

    1) the law says you mustn't do it, so people would not normally expect to be overtaken on the left and not check that side as thoroughly and just decide to move in while you are undertaking

    2) those idiots that block the overtaking lane are capable of doing anything, including pulling over without looking while you're right next to them.


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    #38
    peasant
    Registered Users Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    unkel wrote: »
    Just the once? In what country did that happen?

    Here ...where else?

    The camper only does 100 km/h (when driven with mechanical sympathy) so the opportunity to undertake someone on the motorway could only come here. :D


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    #39
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,794 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    VH wrote: »
    If performed safely in a situation like I outlined above, I couldn't see anyone getting pulled, never mind done, for doing it.

    The problem is that it can never be performed safely.


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    #40
    VH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 690 ✭✭✭VH


    unkel wrote: »
    The problem is that it can never be performed safely.
    I dispute that. A lad was let off for actual undertaking in the hard shoulder of a two way road a couple of years ago (usual story, one lad holding everyone up, can't find a link at the moment). I don't see why overtaking in the left lane cant be done safely on a motorway if a judge can rule that undertaking in that situation was safe.


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    #41
    microgirl
    Registered Users Posts: 429 ✭✭microgirl


    Regarding passing traffic on the left if traffic in left lane is going faster than traffic in right lane.
    stevec wrote: »
    No it's not. I'd like to see you argue that one with a judge.

    Has that changed in the Rules of the Road then? Cos that was the case when I did my test 4 years ago. And the case when my friend did the test last year, on the newly-issued booklet.

    Note that this is NOT the same as undertaking. It's say if you were driving along the road at Fairview Park, which is 2 lanes plus bus lane (and at one stage 3 lanes, as one veers right). At certain times it's very trafficky, with both lanes full. You happen to be in the left lane. If the traffic in that lane starts moving first, or happens to be moving faster than the traffic in the right lane, then you're perfectly entitled to move. You don't have to stay still, with empty space ahead of you, because there's more traffic in the right-hand lane blocking it up. That's simple common sense.


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    #42
    Steve
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 22,584 CMod ✭✭✭✭Steve


    microgirl wrote: »
    Regarding passing traffic on the left if traffic in left lane is going faster than traffic in right lane.

    Has that changed in the Rules of the Road then? Cos that was the case when I did my test 4 years ago. And the case when my friend did the test last year, on the newly-issued booklet.

    Note that this is NOT the same as undertaking. It's say if you were driving along the road at Fairview Park, which is 2 lanes plus bus lane (and at one stage 3 lanes, as one veers right). At certain times it's very trafficky, with both lanes full. You happen to be in the left lane. If the traffic in that lane starts moving first, or happens to be moving faster than the traffic in the right lane, then you're perfectly entitled to move. You don't have to stay still, with empty space ahead of you, because there's more traffic in the right-hand lane blocking it up. That's simple common sense.

    No, you are correct. What you are describing would certainly be classed as 'slow moving' traffic and you are perfectly entitled to 'undertake' them.

    What I was referring to was somebody on a motorway doing 100kph in the overtaking lane = not 'slow moving'.


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    #43
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,794 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    VH wrote: »
    I dispute that. A lad was let off for actual undertaking in the hard shoulder of a two way road a couple of years ago (usual story, one lad holding everyone up, can't find a link at the moment). I don't see why overtaking in the left lane cant be done safely on a motorway if a judge can rule that undertaking in that situation was safe.

    A judge in Ireland ruled that undertaking was safe in that situation? I'll make it a sticky right on top of this forum if you can prove that. Until then, one should assume you are telling porky pies...


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    #44
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,794 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    @microgirl and @stevec - your interpretations are fine. Undertaking in those circumstances is fine!


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    #45
    Eoin
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 21,238 CMod ✭✭✭✭Eoin


    ninty9er wrote: »
    :rolleyes::rolleyes:

    Great contribution there.


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    #46
    VH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 690 ✭✭✭VH


    unkel wrote: »
    A judge in Ireland ruled that undertaking was safe in that situation? I'll make it a sticky right on top of this forum if you can prove that. Until then, one should assume you are telling porky pies...
    I've no reason to tell lies. I'm sure others on here remember it too.


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    #47
    Zube
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,502 ✭✭✭Zube


    Individual judges in particular cases make all kinds of crazy rulings. I know a girl who was t-boned while turning right by a woman who admitted starting to overtake approaching a junction after she saw a right-turn indicator, yet the judge ruled against the girl who was hit because she was "less experienced" so it must be her fault.

    One judge who says undertaking was OK in one case doesn't change the law.


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    #48
    Mr.Diagnostic
    Registered Users Posts: 937 ✭✭✭Mr.Diagnostic


    The big problem here is the definition of the word “slow”.

    Take the N7 as an example. 3 lanes. The majority of the traffic is always in the middle and outside lanes. Usually there is very little, if any, traffic in the inside lane. It is not unusual for a few cars/trucks etc to be travelling at the same speed, well below the limit in the two outer lanes. If a driver, travelling well within the limit, approaches this rolling roadblock in the inside lane, is he/she not just passing a slow line of traffic? Should he/she force his/her way across two lanes to join the roadblock, or slow down to the roadblocks speed and stay in the inside lane to totally block the road?
    I think the “undertake” in these circumstances is perfectly legal and correct.

    If it hasn’t happened already, I imagine that a traffic Guard will make the judgement and then a Judge can decide it one way or the other.


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    #49
    Zube
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,502 ✭✭✭Zube


    Mr.Diagnostic wrote: »
    The big problem here is the definition of the word “slow”.

    Well, there is also the word "queues" to consider. There's no way a single car driving up an empty inside lane can be said to be in a queue.


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    #50
    Mr.Diagnostic
    Registered Users Posts: 937 ✭✭✭Mr.Diagnostic


    Zube wrote: »
    Well, there is also the word "queues" to consider. There's no way a single car driving up an empty inside lane can be said to be in a queue.

    That’s true, but,

    Overtake only on the right, unless traffic is travelling in slow moving queues and the traffic queue on your right is travelling more slowly than you are.

    It actually doesn’t say that you have to be in a queue for this to apply.

    Its way to vague. Hopefully it wont be me who tests it in law :)


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    #51
    Steve
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 22,584 CMod ✭✭✭✭Steve


    Zube wrote: »
    Well, there is also the word "queues" to consider. There's no way a single car driving up an empty inside lane can be said to be in a queue.

    "queues" doesn't come into it.

    The actual wording is here:
    (4) Subject to the provisions of sub-article (5), a driver shall overtake on the right and shall not move in towards the left until it is safe to do so.

    (5) A driver may only overtake on the left—

    ( a ) where the driver of the vehicle about to be overtaken has signalled an intention to turn to the right and the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after overtaking, to go straight ahead or to turn to the left,

    ( b ) where the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after overtaking, to turn left at the next road junction and has signalled this intention,

    ( c ) in slow moving traffic, when vehicles in the traffic lane on the driver's right are moving more slowly than the overtaking vehicle.

    As I said before, it's vague and the only person that can interpret 'slow moving' is a judge.


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    #52
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,889 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Ireland has a 'keep left' rule.
    If everyone stayed within the law then there would be no need to undertake. However, some gardai and/or judges may ignore an undertaker because they see it as someone being made decide to break a law because someone else was actually breaking one.


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    #53
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,874 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    We had a Guard in work a few years ago and I asked him about this. He said it's never OK to pass someone on the left when travelling on motorway/dual carriageway if they are hogging the overtaking lane. All you can do is sit behind them and flash/beep/indicate till they move.

    Just to add to the fun if you sit on their bumper(which is dangerous) or are flashing a lot the Gardai will do you for dangerous driving and let the moron causing the problem away:confused:


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    #54
    Eoin
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 21,238 CMod ✭✭✭✭Eoin


    Del2005 wrote: »
    We had a Guard in work a few years ago and I asked him about this. He said it's never OK to pass someone on the left when travelling on motorway/dual carriageway if they are hogging the overtaking lane. All you can do is sit behind them and flash/beep/indicate till they move.

    This is what confuses me - suppose you are in the driving lane keeping a steady speed and there is someone in the overtaking lane driving slower than you are going. Are you then supposed to slow down to match their speed?


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    #55
    Zube
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,502 ✭✭✭Zube


    Yes.

    This has been another edition of Simple Answers to Obvious Questions.
    :p


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    #56
    Jumpy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,606 ✭✭✭Jumpy


    You know what would be great? Signs. The government in Ireland work by a "sure everyone knows that" mentality. The simple fact is that the public as a whole are lacking in common sense. I get the comment "sure no one told me I couldnt do that" a lot here, and as much as I would like to repeatedly kick that person in the arse while shouting "ITS COMMON SENSE YOU DUMB ASS FOOL" I agree that signs would help the uneducated masses more.
    This is a common road sign in Australia.

    http://www2.oxfam.org.au/trailwalker/images/content/Melbourne/0/KEEP%20LEFT%20UNLESS%20OVERTAKING.jpg


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    #57
    Eoin
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 21,238 CMod ✭✭✭✭Eoin


    Zube wrote: »
    Yes.

    I don't see how being side by side with a driver who is oblivious to other road users is any safer.


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    #58
    Zube
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,502 ✭✭✭Zube


    We're talking legal here, which is not the same thing as safe. Most of the people saying it's illegal to pass on the left, myself included, will admit that we've done it from time to time.


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    #59
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,889 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Jumpy wrote: »
    You know what would be great? Signs. The government in Ireland work by a "sure everyone knows that" mentality. The simple fact is that the public as a whole are lacking in common sense. I get the comment "sure no one told me I couldnt do that" a lot here, and as much as I would like to repeatedly kick that person in the arse while shouting "ITS COMMON SENSE YOU DUMB ASS FOOL" I agree that signs would help the uneducated masses more.
    This is a common road sign in Australia.

    http://www2.oxfam.org.au/trailwalker/images/content/Melbourne/0/KEEP%20LEFT%20UNLESS%20OVERTAKING.jpg
    I couldn't agree more.
    There has been no worthwhile funding into maintaining driver education. People here don't know how to driver (by and large) and they are not being shown how to either. Given the investment in motorways in this country, surely a very small percentage of these funds should be used to tell people how to use them!
    eoin_s wrote: »
    I don't see how being side by side with a driver who is oblivious to other road users is any safer.
    You shouldn't be beside them, you should be behind them (in the correct lane) and give them the opportunity for them to take their head out of their rear end and move into the correct lane.


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    #60
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,874 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    eoin_s wrote: »
    This is what confuses me - suppose you are in the driving lane keeping a steady speed and there is someone in the overtaking lane driving slower than you are going. Are you then supposed to slow down to match their speed?
    kbannon wrote: »
    You shouldn't be beside them, you should be behind them (in the correct lane) and give them the opportunity for them to take their head out of their rear end and move into the correct lane.

    The Guard actually said you are supposed to pull into the overtaking lane behind them and flash/indicate that you want to overtake, and wait for them to wake up! Or as kbannon said stay behind them in the driving lane.


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    #61
    T-Maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 3,133 ✭✭✭T-Maxx


    Can someone please refer me to any publication where the use of the word "undertake" is defined in the current sense.


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