Evolution: A Fairytale For Grown-Ups!

robindch

Ciaran500 wrote: »

there seems to be no "CREATION SCIENCE MINISTRIES"

There are a few organizations which go by this name, or a similar one. The most famous one is run by (diploma-mill-doctor) Kent Hovind. There are other possible outfits run by Malachi King, Bob Swinson and a few others, all splendidly uninformed about biology, and all prepared to make money out of that ignorance. Given that Hovind is currently serving a lengthy prison sentence for fraud, I'd imagine that the most likely culprit is King, though I'm sure that somebody from GBC will be able to correct me if that's not right.

Going along to hear a creationist on biology is a bit like going to a lecture on rocket science given by somebody who spends his weekends shooting coke bottles over his washing line.

Ciaran500 wrote: »

Where is this "Gospel Baptist Church, Lucan" The only thing I can find about it is a PO box address

hmm... perhaps they're a very small church, with one very small believer?

robindch

izzyflusky wrote: »

ADMISSION FREE!

Let it never be said that you won't get your money's worth.

izzyflusky

Ciaran500 wrote: »

Where is this "Gospel Baptist Church, Lucan"

The only thing I can find about it is a PO box address

EDIT: And there seems to be no "CREATION SCIENCE MINISTRIES" either.

We used to be in Lucan Village, in front of that little park in the middle of it. Now we are situated at the Lucan Youth Centre in Primrose Lane, Lucan Village
(near Gardai Station)

Bduffman

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Entering into a debate is preferable to insulting other for many reasons. Of these, the two main reasons that spring to mind are: firstly, it often strengthens your own understanding. Secondly, a well reasoned argument can convince others not directly involved in the debate, albeit not often the entrenched opponent. As a Christian, I believe that evolutionary theory is a well reasoned argument. Childish name calling is not an argument from intellectual grounds; it does nothing to strengthen your position.

Ah hold on now - was not the title of that 'presentation' insulting in the first place? Calling evolution a 'fairytale for grown-ups' is insulting in itself don't you think? So to reply to childishness with even more childishness -
YE STARTED IT!!!

Galvasean

Heck, replace the word 'Evolution' with 'Creationism' in that context and suddenly its offensive and the people behind it are bigots.

delly

Will there be refreshments and stuff? If so, i'll sign my name to anything.

PDN

Bduffman wrote: »

Ah hold on now - was not the title of that 'presentation' insulting in the first place? Calling evolution a 'fairytale for grown-ups' is insulting in itself don't you think? So to reply to childishness with even more childishness -
YE STARTED IT!!!

Agreed. The original post was as trollish as have been some of the responses. Having said that, one mitigating factor would be that the OP can hardly be accused of trying to annoy the natives so much as the visitors to the forum.

5uspect

I wonder what the natives actually think of creationists and other such extremists?

I'd imagine the Creationism thread is something of a unwanted boil on the face of their forum and wish it would it be gone. An anonymous poll might be of interest perhaps to test the waters?

iUseVi

5uspect wrote: »

I wonder what the natives actually think of creationists and other such extremists?

I'd imagine the Creationism thread is something of a unwanted boil on the face of their forum and wish it would it be gone. An anonymous poll might be of interest perhaps to test the waters?

Would be interesting to see what people actually think. Problem is an anonymous poll wouldn't stop the resident heathens from voting.

JimiTime

TBH, rather than it being troolish, it seems to be the title of a talk to be given. If thats the case, its merely passing on info. Agree or disagree, its just a flyer for an event. No big deal IMO. People choose to go, or stay at home. Personally i welcome the notice, as i would if there was an atheist talk entitled 'Christians are deluded' advertised. its merely a notice of an event.

5uspect

iUseVi wrote: »

Would be interesting to see what people actually think. Problem is an anonymous poll wouldn't stop the resident heathens from voting.

Well you could carefully pick questions such as:
I'm an Atheist and I accept evolution/creationism
I'm a Christian and I don't accept evolution/creationism
etc

I'm sure the resident heathens wouldn't lie.

JimiTime wrote:

TBH, rather than it being troolish, it seems to be the title of a talk to be given. If thats the case, its merely passing on info.

But I'm wondering if the typical Christian poster/reader of this forum actually thinks that Creationists, specifically the young earth bible literals, actually represent Christianity and would rather they went elsewhere with their nonsense.

I suppose its similar to biologists getting annoyed with people who think that we are evolving towards some sort of super race. I imagine that Creationism with all its excesses, lies and crimes has about as much to do with the kind of Christianity we see in Ireland as suicide bombings do.

I don't really have any problems with Christians, only their influence in society. I think they're wrong and yes, deluded, but I draw the line with creationists. They should be openly mocked as nutters just as any extremest should. Anything else simply gives them the serious attention they crave.

iUseVi

5uspect wrote: »

Well you could carefully pick questions such as:
I'm an Atheist and I accept evolution/creationism
I'm a Christian and I don't accept evolution/creationism
etc

I'm sure the resident heathens wouldn't lie.

Might work. I say run with it.

5uspect

If I were to put a poll together would that be okay with the Mods? Also I would appreciate help in putting the questions together.

Akrasia

5uspect wrote: »

If I were to put a poll together would that be okay with the Mods? Also I would appreciate help in putting the questions together.

You need to cover all the main bases.

Q. Do you believe genesis provides a true account of the origin of the universe

A1 No (I am a non christian)

A2 No (I am a Christian)

A3 Yes, Genesis should be interpreted literally. I don't accept Darwinism

A4 Yes, But it is explained in metaphor and doesn't contradict evolution.

A5. No opinion

5uspect

A mega poll!

JimiTime

5uspect wrote: »

But I'm wondering if the typical Christian poster/reader of this forum actually thinks that Creationists, specifically the young earth bible literals, actually represent Christianity and would rather they went elsewhere with their nonsense.

I suppose its similar to biologists getting annoyed with people who think that we are evolving towards some sort of super race. I imagine that Creationism with all its excesses, lies and crimes has about as much to do with the kind of Christianity we see in Ireland as suicide bombings do.

It obviously represents certain people who call themselves christians. But then, so do the Phelps, so does Bush. So does the Pope etc etc. I represent myself to Christ. The main people who hold them as christians are usually people who have an agenda to criticise 'christianity'. I'm quite secure in my faith to know that no-one represents my faith. If someone takes certain sects as representative of christianity as a whole, well I don't think they really have the capacity to reason either way.

I don't really have any problems with Christians, only their influence in society. I think they're wrong and yes, deluded, but I draw the line with creationists. They should be openly mocked as nutters just as any extremest should. Anything else simply gives them the serious attention they crave.

Have you tried ignoring them? The more you mock, the more people become suspicious and curious IMO.

po0k

Creationists aren't Christians.
They're delusional and addicted to the placebo of 'safe' herd mentality.

Religion is a code of ethics and morals to propagate the species.

All the dogma and politically-derived bullsh1t has been built-up to make folk glassy-eyed and complicit with their own exploitation for profit. To keep you safely under thumb.

Watch *any* nature documentary and firstly be amazed at what you take for granted. Then analyse how ecosystems work. I consider it all to be electromagnetics, frequencies and energies harmonised over millenia like a finely-tuned self-correcting clock.

Better yet, listen to yourself and make up your own mind.

iUseVi

po0k wrote: »

Creationists aren't Christians.
They're delusional and addicted to the placebo of 'safe' herd mentality.

Religion is a code of ethics and morals to propagate the species.

All the dogma and politically-derived bullsh1t has been built-up to make folk glassy-eyed and complicit with their own exploitation for profit. To keep you safely under thumb.

Watch *any* nature documentary and firstly be amazed at what you take for granted. Then analyse how ecosystems work. I consider it all to be electromagnetics, frequencies and energies harmonised over millenia like a finely-tuned self-correcting clock.

Better yet, listen to yourself and make up your own mind.

That's what they have done, and they came out with a different opinion.

This (suggested) poll is for research purposes, I for one am extremely interested in the results.

5uspect

I'm just worried that any poll may be seen as an exercise in trolling or Atheistic arrogance.
I suppose in a sense it probably is. I've made my opinions on the matter fairly clear, or as clear as my grasp of the English language allows me.

Have you tried ignoring them? The more you mock, the more people become suspicious and curious IMO.

Perhaps you're right.

Ekancone

keano_afc wrote: »

I often laugh at the theory of evolution.

That's because you don't understand it. Ignorance can often make people laugh at the most inappropriate moments.

Ekancone

By the way, I once again feel the need to point out that evolution does not refute the existence of God. I am often amused at the fact that people that want to prove gods existence by attempting to refute a scientific theory are aiming at the wrong target altogether.

Fanny Cradock

daithifleming wrote: »

By the way, I once again feel the need to point out that evolution does not refute the existence of God. I am often amused at the fact that people that want to prove gods existence by attempting to refute a scientific theory are aiming at the wrong target altogether.

Yes, I do wish, in the grander sense, that we could leave this behind us. There is a lamentably large thread on the topic. I wonder how much time and effort has gone into that? The answer must surely be 'a great deal'.

Some people of faith out there will never accept evolution, while others happily incorporate it into their faith. Either way, I don't see it as having much relevance to faith in Jesus, which is surely central to all Christian belief. There are concerns on either side, but equally there are compromises to be made. I'm not having a go at anyone - believe in creationism or evolution (or both :pac:) for all I care - I am just confused as to why people devote so much energy to this.

AtomicHorror

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Some people of faith out there will never accept evolution, while others happily incorporate it into their faith. Either way, I don't see it as having much relevance to faith in Jesus, which is surely central to all Christian belief. There are concerns on either side, but equally there are compromises to be made. I'm not having a go at anyone - believe in creationism or evolution (or both :pac:) for all I care - I am just confused as to why people devote so much energy to this.

Scientists put a lot of effort into defending well-established theories so that progress can be made. Imagine if someone started challenging the theory behind the design of the wheel... Not improving it or modifying it but trying to discredit it despite how well-established it is.

Essentially evolution passed through the very same trial by fire (that all theories must go through) and for 150 years it has held up despite the most intense scrutiny that any theory has ever faced. And now some people are trying to bring us right back to the start again as if none of this happened. Re-inventing the wheel through sheer refusal to listen.

If we allow creationism and its ilk equal standing with evolution, it devalues the theory and broadly speaking opens the door for society to march back towards superstition and pseudoscience as acceptable equals to science. If we believe that science can benefit us, it is our responsibility to defend it for posterity.

Ekancone

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Yes, I do wish, in the grander sense, that we could leave this behind us. There is a lamentably large thread on the topic. I wonder how much time and effort has gone into that? The answer must surely be 'a great deal'.

Some people of faith out there will never accept evolution, while others happily incorporate it into their faith. Either way, I don't see it as having much relevance to faith in Jesus, which is surely central to all Christian belief. There are concerns on either side, but equally there are compromises to be made. I'm not having a go at anyone - believe in creationism or evolution (or both :pac:) for all I care - I am just confused as to why people devote so much energy to this.

I agree. The battle continues...

Btw, I reckon this thread should be closed, its only another B, C & P thread.

Fanny Cradock

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Scientists put a lot of effort into defending well-established theories so that progress can be made. Imagine if someone started challenging the theory behind the design of the wheel... Not improving it or modifying it but trying to discredit it despite how well-established it is.

Essentially evolution passed through the very same trial by fire (that all theories must go through) and for 150 years it has held up despite the most intense scrutiny that any theory has ever faced. And now some people are trying to bring us right back to the start again as if none of this happened. Re-inventing the wheel through sheer refusal to listen.

If we allow creationism and its ilk equal standing with evolution, it devalues the theory and broadly speaking opens the door for society to march back towards superstition and pseudoscience as acceptable equals to science. If we believe that science can benefit us, it is our responsibility to defend it for posterity.

I understand that, AtomicHorror, but I don't see creationism being a large enough issue in Ireland (or possibly Europe for that matter) to warrant the protracted debates that continually rage on. And on that note, I'm dropping out of this thread :pac:

Akrasia

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Yes, I do wish, in the grander sense, that we could leave this behind us. There is a lamentably large thread on the topic. I wonder how much time and effort has gone into that? The answer must surely be 'a great deal'.

Some people of faith out there will never accept evolution, while others happily incorporate it into their faith. Either way, I don't see it as having much relevance to faith in Jesus, which is surely central to all Christian belief. There are concerns on either side, but equally there are compromises to be made. I'm not having a go at anyone - believe in creationism or evolution (or both :pac:) for all I care - I am just confused as to why people devote so much energy to this.

Well, it's another claim made by religion that has proven to be false.

Fine, most people today understand evolution (well, outside america at least) but a few hundred years ago, a the bible creation story was a central part of christian doctrine as a fact, and not a metaphor.

Before Gallileo, the catholic church taught that the earth was the center of the universe...

The whole point of these beliefs is the notion that Humans are some kind of chosen species, we are unique and the centre of creation that god loves and created all else just for us. If Dinosaurs could have evolved, dominated the earth and then been wiped out 65 million years before the 'creation' was supposed to have even taken place, it places a serious shadow over our place in 'gods' favour. (were the dinosaurs punished by god for being immoral? what was their purpose for humans?, to trick and confuse us? to give paleontologists something to do?)

Science has shown that we're not as special as we thought we were. God did not create the planet and universe just for us, there is a strong likely-hood that there are other inhabited planets out there somewhere.

Once we remove the 'we're god's children' aspect of religion, or dilute it by allowing all other animals to be gods children too, then there is very little left in religion to believe in.

Why would god demand that we worship and believe in him, but care if monkeys and fish and dinosaurs just get on with their lives? It just makes no sense.

Soul Winner

Sorry haven't posted in ages, (up to my ying yang with work) but when I seen this I had to reply

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Scientists put a lot of effort into defending well-established theories so that progress can be made.

Surely that attitude flies in the face of what science is all about? I thought scientists were supposed to test and re-test every theory to the utmost with every conceivable means that is at their disposal until that theory has been falsified, in which case they can move on and grow? There should be no defending of theories. If what the theories hypothesize turns out to be actually true then it will not need defending. Truth is truth. A good case in point is Einstein’s theory of general relativity. Since he came up with that it has been proven and re-proven to be true at every developmental stage of astrophysical measurement methods. Leave evolution alone, if it’s true it will remain true if its not then so what. If it has become a sacred cow to you then that's your problem. You would be better off making sure you don't hinder scientific advancement with your own dogma never mind creationist's dogma.

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Imagine if someone started challenging the theory behind the design of the wheel... Not improving it or modifying it but trying to discredit it despite how well-established it is.

Don't worry about it. If evolution is true then there is nothing to worry about. Is there? I sense panic in your posts. If you love truth then allow people to refute established theories if they want to and if they are wrong then they will be shown up. Why the panic?

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Essentially evolution passed through the very same trial by fire (that all theories must go through) and for 150 years it has held up despite the most intense scrutiny that any theory has ever faced. And now some people are trying to bring us right back to the start again as if none of this happened. Re-inventing the wheel through sheer refusal to listen.

What's another 150 years? If it is true now then it will be true in another 150 years too. There is nothing wrong with testing even well established theories like evolution. If we don’t we can not move on. If you are so confident that evolution is true then you should greet such scrutiny with glee not panic.

AtomicHorror wrote: »

If we allow creationism and its ilk equal standing with evolution, it devalues the theory and broadly speaking opens the door for society to march back towards superstition and pseudoscience as acceptable equals to science. If we believe that science can benefit us, it is our responsibility to defend it for posterity.

You're panicking again. Just relax, stop defending science. It will always be there no matter what.

Fanny Cradock

Akrasia wrote: »

Well, it's another claim made by religion that has proven to be false.

Fine, most people today understand evolution (well, outside america at least) but a few hundred years ago, a the bible creation story was a central part of christian doctrine as a fact, and not a metaphor.

Before Gallileo, the catholic church taught that the earth was the center of the universe...

The whole point of these beliefs is the notion that Humans are some kind of chosen species, we are unique and the centre of creation that god loves and created all else just for us. If Dinosaurs could have evolved, dominated the earth and then been wiped out 65 million years before the 'creation' was supposed to have even taken place, it places a serious shadow over our place in 'gods' favour. (were the dinosaurs punished by god for being immoral? what was their purpose for humans?, to trick and confuse us? to give paleontologists something to do?)

Science has shown that we're not as special as we thought we were. God did not create the planet and universe just for us, there is a strong likely-hood that there are other inhabited planets out there somewhere.

Once we remove the 'we're god's children' aspect of religion, or dilute it by allowing all other animals to be gods children too, then there is very little left in religion to believe in.

Why would god demand that we worship and believe in him, but care if monkeys and fish and dinosaurs just get on with their lives? It just makes no sense.

No, it's not a claim made by religion. It's a claim made by some religions at a time when our scientific understanding was far more limited. I'm quite sure that now defunct theories and beliefs - whether they describe the shape of the earth, our place in the universe or the existence of the philosopher's stone - aren't limited to the religious.

As a side note, there is plenty for 'religion' to believe in, just as much as before, in fact. If a Christian chooses to believe that Genesis is a metaphor this doesn't remove God from the picture. If they believe that the earth is 6,000 years old or 4.5 billion, at heart all Christians are creationists.

You see what you've done? You've made me reply when I said I wouldn't :eek:

Ekancone

For the record, I have no problem with people saying that God instigated the big bang. For all we know, that could be the case. But saying evolution is wrong is as bad as saying the theory of gravity is wrong. In fact, evolution is a more accurate model!

Soul Winner

daithifleming wrote: »

For the record, I have no problem with people saying that God instigated the big bang. For all we know, that could be the case. But saying evolution is wrong is as bad as saying the theory of gravity is wrong. In fact, evolution is a more accurate model!

Science itself disproves evolution.

"When it comes to the origin of life, many biologists (and others) have typically assumed that plenty of time is available for natural processes to perform the necessary assembly. But discoveries about the universe and the solar system have shattered that assumption. What we see now is that life must have originated on Earth quickly. Research indicates that life began, was destroyed, and began many times during that era before it finally took hold. Fully formed cells show up in the fossil record as far back as 3.5 billion years. The ratio of carbon12 to carbon13 found in the ancient sediments also indicates a plenitude of life on Earth for the era between 3.5 and 3.86 billion years ago. Now the Earth's crust remained molten until 3.9 billion years ago. Life obviously could not survive on or in a molten crust. That leaves just 40 million years between the earth's molten state and the first definitive evidence of life."

How can evolution be true if these are the facts? Evolution requires billions of years doesn't it? We don't have billions of years of the right conditions for life to form by purely natural means if the above is correct. How can you get around these scientifically established facts?