Single ticket for all public transport?

Hot Dog

I am just back from a weekend in Berlin. Of course like a great many capitals other than Dublin is has a public transport system to be proud of. A single 2.10€ ticket will give one 2 hours travel from time of validation on the cities tram, bus, S-bahn (like the dart) and Underground system.

Here we have the bus, luas dart, and soon the metro that all have their own pricing and fares. Do you think Dublin is overdue for an upgrade such a sensible method of charging? Considering that most trips even in the worst traffic will seldom take more than 2 hours, it seems like a reasonable idea for Dublin. Or is this the case of our infrastructure stuck sometime in the 1980's?

paulm17781

This topic has a long history and brings up much anger amongst the people here. If our government were remotely bothered, we'd have had this years ago. :mad:

MonsieurD

Welcome back to the crappest country in Europe.

estebancambias

MonsieurD wrote: »

Welcome back to the crappest country in Europe.

Yeah because a country should be valued on how good its public transport is:rolleyes:

If as I said you do value a country on things like publc transport, you are obviously a very discontent individual who would probably be better off shooting yourself between the eyes.
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They need to bring this in as quick as possible.

Random

It's true that public transport should not make or break a country but it is a major issue for large percentages of the population or rely on it (or would like to rely on it) every day.

PRND

Esteban,

I don't think it is at all out of the ordinary to view a country, or at least a city's progress based on its public transport.

Public transport gives you the freedom to move around a city. In Dublin, people just tend to move in straight lines between their work and their home. Nobody explores the city using public transport.

A good public transport system will bring you home earlier from work in the evening. More leisure time, more time spent with loved ones, less time rammed into the armpit of a stranger.

Decent public transport gets people out of their cars, meaning less pollution in the city. Fair enough electric trains or trams pollute elsewhere but it's not concentrated in the city.

Good public transport means a city can host large scale events and use them to get people home.

I'd say a good public transport system is one of the key factors in defining the success of a city and nowhere in Ireland has a system worthy of a great city.

PRND

As an afterthought Esteban, what are you doing on a board like this if you think that those people who value public transport should shoot themselves between the eyes?

GrumPy

estebancambias wrote: »

Yeah because a country should be valued on how good its public transport is:rolleyes:
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Ehh, yes. Definately. Public transport is very, very important for a city. Not gonna start listing reasons, as th other posters have mentioned many already.

markpb

estebancambias wrote: »

you are obviously a very discontent individual who would probably be better off shooting yourself between the eyes.

Hi Bertie! Should he be committing suicide too?

armada104

Hot Dog wrote: »

I am just back from a weekend in Berlin. Of course like a great many capitals other than Dublin is has a public transport system to be proud of. A single 2.10€ ticket will give one 2 hours travel from time of validation on the cities tram, bus, S-bahn (like the dart) and Underground system.

Here we have the bus, luas dart, and soon the metro that all have their own pricing and fares. Do you think Dublin is overdue for an upgrade such a sensible method of charging? Considering that most trips even in the worst traffic will seldom take more than 2 hours, it seems like a reasonable idea for Dublin. Or is this the case of our infrastructure stuck sometime in the 1980's?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055156122
http://www.railusers.ie/campaigns/integrated_ticketing/

As paulm says, you've come to the right place if you want to find out the background on why this hasn't happened yet. Be warned though, it's quite headache- and anger-inducing so you'd perhaps be better off not bothering.

godtabh

What size of a city and what population does Berlin have?

Are we comparing apples and oranges when we compare Dublin to Berlin in terms of transport?

A lot of people thing that because Berlin has then Dublin has it. Or that London has so Dublin has it.

markf909

kearnsr wrote: »

What size of a city and what population does Berlin have?

Are we comparing apples and oranges when we compare Dublin to Berlin in terms of transport?

A lot of people thing that because Berlin has then Dublin has it. Or that London has so Dublin has it.

I fail to see your point.

I think the key point is that Berlin and London have *functional* integrated public transport.

Dublin has nothing of the sort but there is no reason why this should be the case.
I'm not talking about tube lines or U-Bahn's for Dublin, the humble bus could work wonders alongside the Interconnector from Kildare to Drogheda and the DART from Maynooth to Bray.

There are no votes to be won in this country for providing/improving public transport so the bare minimum is done.

BigglesMcGee

It'll never happen.
Sure now you have the private operators preventing public operators from using the tunnel. And you also need a new ticket for these, which is not transferrable to other operators. They way its going, only private operators will get the best, fastest routes and you'll need a seperate yearly ticket for them all.

Its getting worse, not better here

Terrontress

The original post is in relation to ticketing. If you look at London, there are separate, private companies running the buses and trains and nationalised ones running the tube and tramlink yet it's possible to get one ticket to do all.

In Dublin we have government agencies running the train, tram and bus yet we need separate tickets.

Is this just to raise funds in an awkward as the current systems are not profitable as it stands?

Having been in Berlin, one thing that impressed me was that there was S-Bahn train services through the night yet here there is no nighttime train services, leaving train users to rely on night buses if they go out on the weekends. Of course the train tickets do not work on these.

murphaph

kearnsr wrote: »

What size of a city and what population does Berlin have?

Are we comparing apples and oranges when we compare Dublin to Berlin in terms of transport?

A lot of people thing that because Berlin has then Dublin has it. Or that London has so Dublin has it.

I thought you had some involvement in transport in a professional capacity, no? Berlin (and it's surrounding state of Brandenburg) is just another example of an integrated transport system which happens to be one of the best for coverage (and the biggest integrated tariff area in the world, geographically) but there are many systems which ae equally impressive albeit on a smaller scale in cities with populations as low as 100,000. If you don't like comparing Berlin with Dublin then fare* enough but then compare Munich/Cologne/Stuttgart or even Dresden with Dublin and there's simply no definding the indefensible-Dublin sucks ass big time.

Alun

murphaph wrote: »

... (and the biggest integrated tariff area in the world, geographically) ...

I'd have thought that the Dutch national system with the infamous (and impenetrable to foreigners) strippenkaart would take that honour?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Tariff_System

ressem

There's plenty of towns that benefit from properly run transport integration.

Stockholm, about the same size as Dublin, is in the process of piloting a switch from it's first magnetic card based integrated ticketing to RFID cards.

And the value of quick and easy transport was the first thing that struck our group about the place when we visited, and had me cursing the Irish apparatchiks within an hour of arriving back.

If Ghent in Belgium, not much bigger than Cork, with integrated ticketing between trams and buses can justify the costs of such a system then there's little excuse for Dublin.

jjbrien

I too had an simular expeince as the op this weekend in Oslo. I have debated this here before and used to be a member of one of the big 2 parties and tried to push the intigrated ticket agenda and intergrated transport on them but FF and FG are just not interested in this. They are more concered with keeping things as they are because it suits them. It would be nice to get trains that connect with busses and tickets that can be bought on one and used on the other but th powers that be have no interest in this.

murphaph

Alun wrote: »

I'd have thought that the Dutch national system with the infamous (and impenetrable to foreigners) strippenkaart would take that honour?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Tariff_System

Hmmm, I suppose because it doesn't include all the Dutch National Railways and specifically excludes night busses maybe? The Netherlands is certainly larger (45,000 sq km app.) than Berlin & Brandenburg (30,000 sq km app.) but VBB covers all transit including night busses. I don't know, maybe the Dutch sytem is in fact larger and you're right and I'm wrong. We'll not fall out about it anyway

Laredo

Until Luas and private bus operations began it was possible to get a single ticket that covered all public transport in Dublin. Day, week and monthly bus/rail tickets were available back as far as I can recall and for longer distances the outer tickets also cover bus eireann routes as well.

estebancambias

My point is that most cities complain about poor public transport.

Do you think I think public transport here is good? Hell no, but its a cliché, to say Ireland is the worst country angers me.

Dublin also has the problem that its so spread out. For a major city, our population within city limits is just over five hundred thousand.

If population density was greater, transport could be more centralised.


So here is what I say, allow the population of dublin to increase in the next 4 years by 1 million within its current confines, no sprawling housing out in the middle of Meath.

Populate the city and then we can get great transport.

AlekSmart

Just back from Berlin myself and can well agree with the OP`s sense of wonderment and mystery at what he saw.
However the reason why we in Ireland are still back in the mists of Transport Time is essentially simple,We do not agree with the principle of "The Greater Good".

This is why we currently have many millions of Euro available to improve Bus based Public Transport yet the improvements will not be sanctioned due to the "Threat" of Legal Action by private operators who want a share of the pie.

The rights and wrongs of it remain to be argued interminably and all the while NOTHING will be attempted that may upset the INDIVIDUAL apple cart.

The essential elements Berlin posesses which we do not is FOCUS and CLARITY which enables it to offer such functionality.

3 Door,2 Staircase Double Deck vehicles which swallow and disgorge large numbers of passengers with ease.

Worth noting is the Drivers cabs with no security screens yet they accept cash AND give change (albeit rarely as few locals would bother with it )
Compare this with our BRAND NEW Tri-Axle hi-capacity double decks with one miserable door and an egg-timer restriction just behind it to slow everything down....Mad Stuff ! :mad:

One of the frustrations I see with the entire T21 and DTA associated business is that the concept of differing agencies remaining independent continues unabated.

We still don`t get it....

HydeRoad

The RPA are far, it seems, from the kind of agency that will ever provide the vision to move such matters into the 21st century.

For what it was worth anyway, there were initial meetings with all the relevant transport providers, including the private sector. Private bus operators arrived at those meetings, and were promptly blanked by Dublin Bus. DB literally turned their backs.

The private bus operators agreed with the RPA on a ticket machine and back office specification which would be compatible with the proposed integrated ticketing. Dublin Bus, who wished to integrate with everyone EXCEPT the private sector, then went ahead and instituted a completely different system, specifically to leave the entire private sector out in the cold. Private buses were not to be allowed to integrate with anyone.

In the end, a private bus operator was the first to venture integration with LUAS, on a loose kind of basis pending the roll out of smart card integration under the RPA, which has since become mired in whatever it is that mires these type of progressive ventures.

Private bus operators, despite their many faults, are trying to push the agenda forward too, under virulent resistance from those who wish they would simply roll over and disappear.

Calina

estebancambias wrote: »

My point is that most cities complain about poor public transport.

Do you think I think public transport here is good? Hell no, but its a cliché, to say Ireland is the worst country angers me.

Dublin also has the problem that its so spread out. For a major city, our population within city limits is just over five hundred thousand.

If population density was greater, transport could be more centralised.


So here is what I say, allow the population of dublin to increase in the next 4 years by 1 million within its current confines, no sprawling housing out in the middle of Meath.

Populate the city and then we can get great transport.

Most cities do not complain about their public transport per se because they have functional public transport systems which run reliably and on time. They have all sorts of nick nacks and doodahs that make it a near joy to navigate their cities. Most European cities have bus stops with bus timetables for that stop, not for a terminus some distance away, just by way of an example.

So it is ridiculous to say all cities complain about their public transport and assume that allows the various authorities here off the hook. Public transport in Dublin in particular is an unholy mess organisationally because it involves an increasing number of companies who are allowed to do their own thing, more or less. If we wanted integrated ticketing, we could make it a condition of their licences that they conformed to integrated ticketing, for example. The point is instead of imposing these things like other countries do, we sit down and negotiate them and it goes nowhere because no one cares about the common interest.

Waiting for the city to grow by 1 million to fix things is also stupid because public transport - or the lack of a reliable system - is hampering growth of the city anyway. It also directly leads to the commuter culture which we are heavily struggling with. We could, with a little forward thinking do something for thefuture, rather than waiting for the future to arrive (viz Metro North and the interconnector, for example) and then having it cost a fortune, still be the subject of idiotic pieces in the Irish Times calling for bits of it to be scrapped.

Cities that have 500,000 people living in them have functional public transport systems. What exactly is your point? We could actually build something that works rather than going ochon oh, we have a relatively low public density. The fact is we - collectively - are too much a nation of cheapskates to do it. Your suggestion that we move the population in before we figure out how to move them around is just another example of that sort of attitude.

AlekSmart - it is my opinion that the reason we have a large number of cash fares is that the collective tickets are nowhere near attractive enough financially to bother going there if you're not using the bus really regularly enough. In other words, the monthly tickets and weekly tickets are too too expensive. I think someone said this was because the companies have more discretion over the charge for those than they do for the straight cash fares which are set by the DoT. Is that still the case?

Run_to_da_hills

A single ticket for all public transport is definitely on the way, it is called the RFID contactless "smart card" just like London’s Oyster card, when its implemented you will all regret it because all your movements will be pin pointed by "big brother" right across the city on every form of transport you take

paulm17781

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

A single ticket for all public transport is definitely on the way, it is called the RFID contactless "smart card" just like London’s Oyster card, when its implemented you will all regret it because all your movements will be pin pointed by "big brother" right across the city on every form of transport you take

Sigh... our Smart card won't have a patch on Oyster.

Calina wrote:

AlekSmart - it is my opinion that the reason we have a large number of cash fares is that the collective tickets are nowhere near attractive enough financially to bother going there if you're not using the bus really regularly enough. In other words, the monthly tickets and weekly tickets are too too expensive. I think someone said this was because the companies have more discretion over the charge for those than they do for the straight cash fares which are set by the DoT. Is that still the case?

It used to be cheaper for me to pay cash fares than to get a weekly or monthly ticket. Only here would such nonsense occur.

pickarooney

Of course commuters in other cities complain about their public transport systems, it's human nature to whinge no matter how good you have it. The favourite beef of Dutch commuters (after the weather and the price of everything these days) is the 'unreliable' transport system which is often up to 5 minutes late. The difference seems to be that they're much more effective at complaining to the right people.

paulm17781

pickarooney wrote: »

Of course commuters in other cities complain about their public transport systems, it's human nature to whinge no matter how good you have it. The favourite beef of Dutch commuters (after the weather and the price of everything these days) is the 'unreliable' transport system which is often up to 5 minutes late. The difference seems to be that they're much more effective at complaining to the right people.

We've had a terrible system for as long as most people can remember. No one enforces reasonable targets (within 10 minutes is on time here). If our Government actually tried to improve our transport, we could easily have a system as effective as that in other cities. The problem is it is left as a mess and unfortunately, people here seem to just accept it.

Run_to_da_hills

paulm17781 wrote: »

Sigh... our Smart card won't have a patch on Oyster

Give it time and every single city in the world will have the same track and trace smart card system based on the Oyster card.

Alun

Calina wrote: »

AlekSmart - it is my opinion that the reason we have a large number of cash fares is that the collective tickets are nowhere near attractive enough financially to bother going there if you're not using the bus really regularly enough. In other words, the monthly tickets and weekly tickets are too too expensive.

Another factor in the lack of uptake of these tickets (apart from the price and the rather bewildering array of different but similar tickets) ..... when was the last time you saw any form of advertising for them anywhere .. on TV, radio, newspapers, at the bus stops or (radical idea this!) on the buses themselves?

paulm17781

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Give it time and every single city in the world will have the same track and trace smart card system based on the Oyster card.

We don't even have an integrated ticketing system yet. Our Smart card will be nothing more than a hi-tech way to keep ripping off the public in the same manner as is done now.

Oyster guarantees cheapest fares, it even limits your spend to the cheapest possible option (daily / weekly / monthly / yearly ticket price). Do you honestly think we'll get something like that in Dublin?

We can't even do decent integrated paper tickets. RFID is not a solution to a complete lack of planning.

MOH

paulm17781 wrote: »

We've had a terrible system for as long as most people can remember. No one enforces reasonable targets (within 10 minutes is on time here). If our Government actually tried to improve our transport, we could easily have a system as effective as that in other cities. The problem is it is left as a mess and unfortunately, people here seem to just accept it.

When I worked there I gave out whenever my tram was a couple of minutes late. I look back and weep now that my DART is on average over 5 minutes late every day.

AlekSmart

While I see where Hyde Road is coming from,I have to step back from the Bus Atha Cliath vs The World scenario as portrayed.

There are many problems inherent in the "Integration" of several differing systems,something which the RPA appeared to believe was easy-peasy.

I would be sceptical of the RPA having arrived at an "agreed" Ticketing Regieme as the collapse of their own tendering process proved that as far as a valid process went they had Nothing!

Bus Atha Cliath with it`s 1,000+ vehicles and 145 Million passenger journeys already had a clear set of requirements and a clearer idea than most of what could and could`nt work.
It`s also worth noting that when Bus Atha Cliath "Went ahead and instituted a completely different system" it did so with the full and complete aquiscence of the Dept of Transport and the Cabinet and also the RPA itself !!

What Hyde Road may not be totally familiar with is the TOTAL politicization of what should have been a straightforward Business strategy.
There is NO area of the "Integrated Ticketing" fiasco that has not been fully vetted by a series of high ranking Political types,none of whom have any REAL idea of how modern day Bus commuting could be improved at relatively little cost.

The RPA for example has a somewhat old-fashioned notion of how to devise,implement and market fare structures.
Just look at the complex and expensive structures introduced with Luas....who was the genius behind that..on second thoughts don`t bother to answer cos it will doubtless have been a Committee...

The entire thing is easily solved by STRONG decisive action and by enforcing compromise where that is necessary for the GREATER GOOD...not a concept embraced by our administrators !!

HydeRoad

Aha, but what we have in practice are a whole lot of individual operators, agencies and committees all scrabbling to protect their own patch AT ALL COSTS.

How are we ever going to have agreements like integrated ticketing, user friendly fare structures, integrated transport networks, when we have situations where Iarnrod Eireann are at loggerheads with the RPA over access to the valuable and strategic belt of land at Broadstone, or where the state operator wishes to exclude a large percentage of the transport network, vis-a-vis the private sector, from being part of anything?

The RPA efforts were already doomed to failure, but whatever the prospects of those early approaches, the fact is that Dublin Bus DID NOT wish to integrate with certain sectors of the industry where it suited their own personal agendas. I am not blaming Dublin Bus for the failure of the scheme, just making an example of how without the co-operation of EVERYONE in an open minded manner, there can be no progress.

Too many people, too many agencies, all with different agendas, and all pulling against each other, while the basic premise of it all is lost.

dymonaz

Whoever said that this topic brings out a lot of anger was right. I wanted to say something, but what's the point? I'll just stick to my 20 minutes on LUAS and 30 minutes on foot just because there's NO other option, apart from enjoying the pleasures of sitting in a car for the same amount of time.