breeding a boxer dog?

pat d plumber

hi
I have a 2 year old brindle boxer that is coming into heat.I am considering breeding her.I have a few questions:
1) is this the right age?
2) She might have to get a operation on her eyelids(supposed to be common in boxers)will this have an effect on trying to sell her pups as purebred?
3) Is there much involved in selling the pups as registered pups?

peasant

Let me put it this way:

If you have to come here to ask, then maybe you shouldn't be breeding her at all.

pat d plumber

why?

Glowing

pat d plumber wrote: »

hi
I have a 2 year old brindle boxer that is coming into heat.I am considering breeding her.I have a few questions:
1) is this the right age?
2) She might have to get a operation on her eyelids(supposed to be common in boxers)will this have an effect on trying to sell her pups as purebred?
3) Is there much involved in selling the pups as registered pups?

Hi Pat,

Seriously, unless she's top of her class, and free of all commong genetic defects, then you should NOT even consider breeding her. There are WAY too many badly breed animals out there reducing the quality of the breed, introducing problems (hence the eyelid thing) and not to mention the shelters full of pups which no one is interested in paying for.

What happens if you get a litter of 6 pups and can't home them? Do you have the time/space/money to care for all of them?

Edit: Oh and what happens if your bitch produces a litter of cross breeds? How are you going to rehome them? You can say what you like about keeping your dog inside etc, but accidents do happen, and all it takes is for her to get outside just the once ....

This is something you should consider VERY carefully. Do the responsible thing and have her spayed. Then just enjoy her as the pet she is.

pat d plumber

she comes from a breed of 10 pups which the owner has had no trouble selling at all,he has since bred the mother again and one of the other bitchs from my dogs litter and has no trouble selling any of them so dont think that should be a problem.

I want to breed her once,after that i can get her spayed

Glowing

Why are you interested in breeding her? Money?

pat d plumber

i want to keep one of her pups and yeah the money 2,thats not a crime. are you a vet or do you just know a lot about dogs?

Glowing

pat d plumber wrote: »

yeah the money 2,thats not a crime.

No, nothing wrong with that unless you're breeding to the detriment of the boxer lines ..... then it might as well be - then you're no more than a puppy farmer with dollar signs instead of eyes.

No I'm not a vet, but have seen first hand the results of overbreeding - which is good enough for me. My sister is a vet nurse and she could tell you a thing or too .....

By the way, i'm not sure there is a lot of money in it if you're planning to do it properly, which I presume you are?

High quality food for mum, vaccines for all the pups, vetinerary fees, the cost of possible complications, IKC registration for their papers, and a LOT of work for the first 8-12 weeks of their birth before they can be 'sold' (god I hate that idea). Are you going to be around full-time to look after these pups after their born?

You also need to be realistic too ... money or no money.

kerrysgold

Unless she is a top-quality boxer then don't breed her.
Does she fit her breed standard perfectly? i.e. great conformation and temperament?
Has she been health tested? This is to make sure no genetic diseases would be passed on to the the pups. For example, her eye problem could be something genetic and her pups could end up with it as well.
Is she Kennel Club registered?
What are her bloodlines like? Has she got champions in her pedigree? Has she done well in the show ring herself?

Morganna

pat i would not breed from your boxer if she has to have an eye operation .It sounds like entropian to me which is genetic.So no way should she bred .Also reaing a litter of pups takes a lot of money and time if you want to rear them correctly.The bitch alone will need extra food and vitamins .No way should an animal be bred from if it has a problem with eyes hips etc.

wyk

Because you obviously have no idea what you're doing. On top of that, you are willing to breed a dog that has a known congenital defect; this isn't going to impress anyone. There's already more dogs than homes. Other than your own selfishness, why breed another?

WYK

pat d plumber wrote: »

why?

red_ice

My father has kept 4 all ireland/uk champions. One of which was a bitch who had ingrowing eyelids and had to have a couple of operations to fix them. Granted she was a heavy headded chow, but boxers headweight can cover it up. Get the OP done asap, and try have it ready by the time you are selling the pups. It is genetic 8/10 times, because its based around headweight and fat pushing the eyelids inwards. Its a simple operation, she would be grand in 2 weeks at most.

There are loads of things you need to consider. If you are selling them for showing then you really cant play with the pups at all. You just have to let them play within the litter. Holding the pups should be avoided at all costs aswel. One of our dogs had to be returned a month after we picked him up because his from right leg was turning inwards from the breeders kids who played with him.

For me, the dogs were pets etc. For my dad it was the same, but it was also a hobby. So you need to find out who your selling to, this will let you know if your in over your head or not.

You need to find a good stud aswell. Not any old pure bred boxer, you should ask a judge etc about the condition of a dog, his stance etc. Whats the point in breeding a dog for showing if hes got terrible posture?

I know my comments sound cold, but again, im only telling you what i know from experience, and thats very little compared to the people who do this as their main hobby!

Ruby Soho

"Get the OP done asap, and try have it ready by the time you are selling the pups"

Red-ice, I really don't understand your reply. What are you saying?? Get the bitch fixed before you sell the pups so potential new owners don't realise they are being duped, and buying pups from a dog with inheritable defects?? If the dog has a condition like this, it should not be bred AT ALL. Yes it is a simple operation, but its an operation that healthy, well-bred animals should not have to go through.

As for not playing with the pups? WTF? Your dog may have been injured but Im sure it was not due to mere playing, the child obviously was very rough with the pup. I mean, have you seen how boisterously pups can play with eachother?? I would rather take the minute chance that a pup could be roughly handled by a child than buy one who has never been adequately socialised with adults and children. Just because a dog has show potential doesn't mean its made of glass and can't handle being played with! That's nuts.

red_ice

Ruby Soho wrote: »

Red-ice, I really don't understand your reply. What are you saying?? Get the bitch fixed before you sell the pups so potential new owners don't realise they are being duped, and buying pups from a dog with inheritable defects?? If the dog has a condition like this, it should not be bred AT ALL. Yes it is a simple operation, but its an operation that healthy, well-bred animals should not have to go through.

Not at all. All healthy dogs come across problems. Charles' are known for having weak hearts for example. Another would be my gf's german shepard who has hip dysplacia, these illness come as part of the breed. As far as boxers go, like bulldogs or in my chow chows case(not my chow, an example chow), they have heavy heads. This means that fat can grow around the head more than on other dogs. In missy's case (my dog in question) she grew alot of fat around her head putting weight on her eyelids. The op even said it herself

pat d plumber wrote: »

2) She might have to get a operation on her eyelids(supposed to be common in boxers)

All of our dogs were perfectly healthy dogs, and all of them were top class show dogs. You saying a dog should not breed at all is a stupid comment imo. That dog imo sounds grand. It comes with getting a pup, you research the bloodline of the pup. Something as simple as an eye op will not deter someone from getting a pup for showing as showing is based on stance and presentation of the dog. If its purely based on skin deep cosmetic's our dogs would not have done so well, but they excelled and were in all of the top dog mags.

Ruby Soho wrote: »

As for not playing with the pups? WTF? Your dog may have been injured but Im sure it was not due to mere playing, the child obviously was very rough with the pup. I mean, have you seen how boisterously pups can play with eachother?? I would rather take the minute chance that a pup could be roughly handled by a child than buy one who has never been adequately socialised with adults and children. Just because a dog has show potential doesn't mean its made of glass and can't handle being played with! That's nuts.

Of course you can play with the pups, but green stick fractures are very common in pups that get played with allot. Exercise for an aminal of any type is essential. I did say that the pups should play amongst the litter, and human interaction is obviously needed for the upbringing of a dog. However, you have to be gentle with pups.

To reiterate my point and try get a more accurate point across.. If your breeding for dogs to be shown then you have to be allot more careful with them and bring them up different to other normal house dogs, which by the sounds of it ruby soho are they type of dog that you would generally be around.

Im only offering advice on the matter, the op and take it or leave it - its no skin off my noise what he/she decides to do with the pups. It will all come to light when she tries to sell the pups to a serious buyer who wants to show the dogs - if she takes your route chances are the pups wont sell. If a dogs stance is even 1/2 an inch off its considered a flaw, and thats just how it is.

However if shes selling to people who just want a house dog, by all means enjoy the pups while they are with you. afaik, 2 years of age is grand for breeding and registering a pup to sell isnt a big hassle either, chances are you will attract a more serious crowed - word will spread if its a good quality pup and you could start to make a pretty penny off of it too.

red_ice

I just had a chat with my dad about this to make sure i was right on the subject. Its called entropion (Inverted eyelids). It cant be bred out of the bloodline however it can skip 4/5 generations of the bloodline, but it will come back somewhere along the line.

As i said, its common in all heavy headed dogs, fat around the head has a role in it, but theres more to it(i didnt go into it).

He also said that if your showing the pups, don't play with them at all. Chuck a ball for them, thats about it.

At the end of the day, if it was me and i was selling them for showing, id side with my father (Irish breed record holder) and the only person to go best in show in the dublin dog show Society Stevens day show championship show with a Chow(95/96). I reckon he knows what hes talking about.

Buyers will be after a perfect dog, hence the saying 'pick of the litter'. Which the studs owner will obviously have if he/she wants.

Ruby Soho

I know what you're saying but I don't agree with you. I don't think its ok to breed the 'perfect showdog' at the expense of hereditary problems. Yes, hip dysplasia is prevalant in GSDs, but it doesn't have to be. If breeders took a more utilitarian approach instead of breeding their bitch with so-and-so down the road for a bit of cash, these problems can be phased out. I recently saw a 5 month old GSD PTS because his HD was so severe his coxo-femoral joints were non-funtional and completed luxated. If that's what's expected in the GSD line, I'd seriously reconsider the ethics of breeding show dogs.
Greyhounds. No here's a breed that made to be fit and functional. Albeit not in the show ring but look at the results. One of the most heavily bred dogs in the world that doesn't suffer from 'breed problems'? No hip dysplasia. No entropion. No DCM. The pups are handled, and socialised, and run the legs off eachother to build up fitness. If they show problems... they are not used for breeding. Simple as that.
Also, i know what entropion is. Its a potentially serious condition that can lead to loss of sight +/- deep corneal scarring if not treated. Id hardly call it a 'skin deep cosmetic issue'.
In your first post you said you cant play with the pups, in your second you said you could? BTW, I saw an adult boxer recently breaking her tibia + fibula after chasing a ball.
Like you said, I really don't care if the OP breeds his bitch or not, I just think that perpetuating a defect in the line is doing a disservice to boxers as a breed.

peasant

red_ice wrote: »

All healthy dogs come across problems. Charles' are known for having weak hearts for example. Another would be my gf's german shepard who has hip dysplacia, these illness come as part of the breed.

Wouldn't you say that "illness as part of the breed" and "healthy dogs" are mutually exclusive ? :pac:

red_ice wrote: »

All of our dogs were perfectly healthy dogs, and all of them were top class show dogs. .... Something as simple as an eye op will not deter someone from getting a pup for showing as showing is based on stance and presentation of the dog.



To reiterate my point and try get a more accurate point across.. If your breeding for dogs to be shown then you have to be allot more careful with them and bring them up different to other normal house dogs, which by the sounds of it ruby soho are they type of dog that you would generally be around.

Im only offering advice on the matter, the op and take it or leave it - its no skin off my noise what he/she decides to do with the pups. It will all come to light when she tries to sell the pups to a serious buyer who wants to show the dogs - if she takes your route chances are the pups wont sell. If a dogs stance is even 1/2 an inch off its considered a flaw, and thats just how it is.

However if shes selling to people who just want a house dog, by all means enjoy the pups while they are with you. afaik, 2 years of age is grand for breeding and registering a pup to sell isnt a big hassle either, chances are you will attract a more serious crowed - word will spread if its a good quality pup and you could start to make a pretty penny off of it too.

yepp ..that would about sum up a lot of so called "show" breeders quite well

red_ice wrote: »

I just had a chat with my dad about this to make sure i was right on the subject. Its called entropion (Inverted eyelids). It cant be bred out of the bloodline however it can skip 4/5 generations of the bloodline, but it will come back somewhere along the line.

As i said, its common in all heavy headed dogs, fat around the head has a role in it, but theres more to it(i didnt go into it).

He also said that if your showing the pups, don't play with them at all. Chuck a ball for them, thats about it.

At the end of the day, if it was me and i was selling them for showing, id side with my father (Irish breed record holder) and the only person to go best in show in the dublin dog show Society Stevens day show championship show with a Chow(95/96). I reckon he knows what hes talking about.

I'd reckon he hasn't got the foggiest :pac:

He knows how to win a show alright ...but that's as far as it goes.




So, in this thread we now have an OP who knows all about money

she comes from a breed of 10 pups which the owner has had no trouble selling at all,he has since bred the mother again and one of the other bitchs from my dogs litter and has no trouble selling any of them so dont think that should be a problem.

and a self appointed advisor who knows all about showing.

Grand!

Anyone here who knows anything about actual dogs?
:D:D

red_ice

Ruby Soho wrote: »

I know what you're saying but I don't agree with you. I don't think its ok to breed the 'perfect showdog' at the expense of hereditary problems. Yes, hip dysplasia is prevalant in GSDs, but it doesn't have to be. If breeders took a more utilitarian approach instead of breeding their bitch with so-and-so down the road for a bit of cash, these problems can be phased out. I recently saw a 5 month old GSD PTS because his HD was so severe his coxo-femoral joints were non-funtional and completed luxated. If that's what's expected in the GSD line, I'd seriously reconsider the ethics of breeding show dogs.
Greyhounds. No here's a breed that made to be fit and functional. Albeit not in the show ring but look at the results. One of the most heavily bred dogs in the world that doesn't suffer from 'breed problems'? No hip dysplasia. No entropion. No DCM. The pups are handled, and socialised, and run the legs off eachother to build up fitness. If they show problems... they are not used for breeding. Simple as that.

i really cant argue with that at all. Again, as i said you check the blood line of the pup and the stud. Im positive i mentioned this in one of my previous posts. What i ment by 'it comes with the breed' was that its a possibility. Would you prefare that the breed died out instead? I seriously doubt it. If you want to aviod breed defects, you kill the breed - that wont happen. Please stop trying to attack me from angles which are just wasting time.

Ruby Soho wrote: »

Also, i know what entropion is. Its a potentially serious condition that can lead to loss of sight +/- deep corneal scarring if not treated. Id hardly call it a 'skin deep cosmetic issue'.

It is if you use it in reference to my post. I said get it looked at so the mother is grand when the pups arrive, not to hide it from potential buyers. You tell them these things anyways.

Ruby Soho wrote: »

In your first post you said you cant play with the pups, in your second you said you could? BTW, I saw an adult boxer recently breaking her tibia + fibula after chasing a ball.
Like you said, I really don't care if the OP breeds his bitch or not, I just think that perpetuating a defect in the line is doing a disservice to boxers as a breed.

Now all your doing here is trying to look for contradictions in my post and going on a complete offense on them you wont get far with that.

The pup we returned was called Jack, he was picked up from behind his front legs by the kids then carried around the house like a baby. That caused his right paw to turn inwards. Thats hardly rough housing with a pup. As you said you saw an adult dog break x and y, that could happen to a pup allot easier.

Peasant stfu, either contribute to the conversation or fo elsewhere.

I didnt once say in any of my posts that i think dogs are there for breeding. I didnt say that a dog should be bred because of its kennel name either, only to reference it. I simply gave the user some advice to selling a healthy pup.

Aside from all that, imho, a show dogs quality of life is 10x better than an house dog. They got washed and groomed every week without fail. Walked every night. Brekfast and a healthy dinner. They slept inside, and were given allot of attention. Our dogs were a part of the family. Noone who has a showdog treats them like crap. Then again no self respecting person would even buy a dog if they wernt going to look after it properly, but most people do.

Toots

I know when I got my own dog, I was hesitant to spay her, as I felt maybe she should have a litter and then get spayed (I thought it would be nice for her to have pups, wasn't thinking of things from a money point of view). But when I discussed it with my vet, he said I'd really be better off spaying her unless I really had the time & money to invest in a litter of pups. He told me that a lot of breeders would be lucky to break even after selling a litter of pups, when you take all the expenses into account. Then there's also the possibility that you might not be able to rehome the puppies, in your case OP, would you have the room/money/time to care for another couple of boxers? Even if you manage to find homes for the pups, the first weeks are very intense, you couldn't just go off to work and leave the mother and new pups in the house alone, they need to be looked after.

Another thing you need to be aware of is that if you want to sell your pups as purebreeds, they'll need the papers to go with it. (Which also cost money to obtain) and in order for them to be registered, both parents need to be registered. If you're getting a PB dog to service your bitch, you'll likely have to pay a 'service' or 'stud' fee to the dog's owners. Ifyour boxer is serviced by a non registered dog, it would be foolish to expect the same money for the pups as you would for a reg puppy. And as Glowing said, if another dog gets to her, and you have a litter of cross breeds what are you going to do? Have a look at hte IKC website, especially this page, and have a good discussion with your vet before doing anything. He will tell honestly whether or not it would be a good idea. This really isn't something you should go into with your eyes closed.

Hope this helps.

Glowing

red_ice wrote: »

If you want to aviod breed defects, you kill the breed - that wont happen.

Oh FFS!

So you think the answer is to just ignore the problem and breed from the boxer anyway even though he has a genetic defect?!

This is hardly the answer either.

peasant

red_ice wrote: »

What i ment by 'it comes with the breed' was that its a possibility. Would you prefare that the breed died out instead? I seriously doubt it. If you want to aviod breed defects, you kill the breed - that wont happen. Please stop trying to attack me from angles which are just wasting time.

Wasting time, eyh?

How about wasting the poor dogs' lives. If a stop to stupid line breeding and show breeding is what it takes to make dogs healthier, than that's what it takes.

Neither is it heplful to dogs' health to encourage any old dog owner to breed from a defective dog, no matter how well founded or researched your advice may be (which it isn't ...it's just about maximising money in your case)


(Where's shinners when you need her? )

Ruby Soho

I'm not trying to pick holes in your post, all I'm saying is that I don't think your theories make any sense at all. Imagine not playing with a boxer puppy cos there is a tiny possibility that they could be injured. Ridiculous. You're the one contradicting yourself here, not me. I'm so sick of all of these 'breeders' going on about champion lines and all that crap, when they just haven't a clue.
And if you must know, I would be delighted if certain 'breeds' died out. I won't mention any because I don't want to offend any owners, but if a dog has to suffer with its health just to look a certain way, then bring it on. I hate seeing these stupid breeds that can't breath properly or can't run because their conformation is so poor, and yet it complies perfectly with the 'breed standard'.
Makes me sick.

And are you saying that your dogs live better lives than anyone else's here cos its a show dog? FFS. Mine get walked every day too. And fed the best food money can buy. They also sleep indoors and have lovely comfy beds. They don't get washed every week because they don't enjoy it and its bad for their skin and coat. They get groomed regularly because they love it. They get the best of veterinary + preventative healthcare. My dogs are also part of the family. That is one daft argument you got there.

red_ice

Ruby Soho wrote: »

Imagine not playing with a boxer puppy cos there is a tiny possibility that they could be injured. Ridiculous. You're the one contradicting yourself here, not me. I'm so sick of all of these 'breeders' going on about champion lines and all that crap, when they just haven't a clue.

Im not trying to come across as a hardass here on my posts. Again, light playing is alright, but most of the time it escalates and can result in an injury. And again, im trying to give her advice on if she wanted to pass them on to people who want to show the dog that she has to be very careful with them, more so than an average dog.

Our first dog passed away at 15, which is a damn fine age for a dog. our other 3 was 11-13 years. All of our dogs died of natural causes.

Would you mind telling me what says people like my father dont have a clue about dogs? And what makes you an expert? If your a vet, fair enough. I see my fathers word as golden as he lived for our dogs for 20 years.

Ruby Soho wrote: »

And if you must know, I would be delighted if certain 'breeds' died out. I won't mention any because I don't want to offend any owners, but if a dog has to suffer with its health just to look a certain way, then bring it on. I hate seeing these stupid breeds that can't breath properly or can't run because their conformation is so poor, and yet it complies perfectly with the 'breed standard'.
Makes me sick.

Could you give me an example? I totally agree with you on that. That is a horrible thing, but personally i think your looking into the more extreme end of things. We bred Chow Chows, imo they are a fine dog. If you think they should be one of those breeds to die out, you need your head checked. The same with boxers and German Shepards.

Ruby Soho wrote: »

And are you saying that your dogs live better lives than anyone else's here cos its a show dog? FFS. Mine get walked every day too. And fed the best food money can buy. They also sleep indoors and have lovely comfy beds. They don't get washed every week because they don't enjoy it and its bad for their skin and coat. They get groomed regularly because they love it. They get the best of veterinary + preventative healthcare. My dogs are also part of the family. That is one daft argument you got there.

I think you missed my point there and got cought up in the first few lines of what i was saying.. The first bold line is pretty much golden, but not always.. the second answers your question. the italic is there to try reiterate on what i was saying.

a show dogs quality of life is 10x better than the regular owners house dog. They got washed and groomed every week without fail. Walked every night. Brekfast and a healthy dinner. They slept inside, and were given allot of attention. Our dogs were a part of the family. Noone who has a showdog treats them like crap. Then again no self respecting person would even buy a dog if they wernt going to look after it properly, but most people do.

Glowing wrote: »

Oh FFS!

So you think the answer is to just ignore the problem and breed from the boxer anyway even though he has a genetic defect?!

Are you able to undo YEARS of breeding? Go for it if you can, cure the problem! Its like talking to a wall! The ingrowing eyes will happen no matter what 2 dogs you put together, it skips generations. Are you now trying to tell me that people who have MS shouldnt have the right to children? that skips generations too you know. We could spay all the people in the world whos family have had it, and we could kill it off to a certain extent, great idea. I never once said ignore the problem. You can tackle the problem with a simple operation - hey presto, problem solved, healthy dog.

peasant wrote: »

How about wasting the poor dogs' lives. If a stop to stupid line breeding and show breeding is what it takes to make dogs healthier, than that's what it takes.

Wasting lives? Your taking everything im saying completely wrong. You seriously have yourself up on a high chair. My points have all been leading to getting the healthiest pup possible, hence researching the line. The ingrowing eye problem will happen no matter what 2 boxers you put together, is that so hard to comprehend? ITS UNAVIODABLE!

peasant wrote: »

Neither is it heplful to dogs' health to encourage any old dog owner to breed from a defective dog, no matter how well founded or researched your advice may be (which it isn't ...it's just about maximising money in your case)

defective dog? Thats a lovely term. And your trying to make me out to be the inhumane one here. Ok, that means that every breed is 'defective' then. What part of what im saying dont you understand? Is it that complecated? These problems with dogs come with every breed no matter where they come from. I never once said that its all about money, its about having a new companion to which you can share an activity with. Our dogs loved showing and my father loved taking them out to shows. My 'research' comes from someone who knows dogs inside out. I dont have to proove anything to you regarding that knowledge, you can take it onboard or just keep your running mouth to yourself when someones trying to offer advice on the wellbeing of an animal.

Now show me where i said the following.

peasant wrote: »

it's just about maximising money in your case

Now, lets continue on this conversation with it in mind that we all want healthy pups. So you cant try stir up sh1t using that angle anymore. Lets go!

*waits for people to ignore that line*

Intothesea

I agree with what you're saying Red Ice, all
purebred dogs come with possible inherent health
defects and it is *responsible breeding* and
careful handling in the puppy stage that lowers
or eliminates the expression of some of these
potential traits.

It sounds as if your father is serious
about breeding, and that he breeds his lines
with a knowledegable eye on temperament
and conformation.

I don't think the OP has any of this intention
myself. Not-so-conscientiously-bred purebreds
are no improvement to any breed's existence.

For this reason I wouldn't recommend that the
OP bother with this experiment.

/0.02

peasant

red_ice wrote: »

And again, im trying to give her advice on if she wanted to pass them on to people who want to show the dog that she has to be very careful with them, more so than an average dog.

Would you ever listen to yourself ? You don't even know the difference between socialising a pup, playing with it and tearing the hindlegs of it.

All pups need to have early contact with humans in order to become familiar with them. That involves careful handling and gentle play. No young pup should be left as a plaything for young children to tear the legs off it.

That apllies to ALL pups, regardless if they are for show, sale or keeping.

Advising people to treat show dogs differently from others goes to show again that it is all about the money and not what is right for the dogs.

red_ice wrote: »

Are you able to undo YEARS of breeding? Go for it if you can, cure the problem! Its like talking to a wall! The ingrowing eyes will happen no matter what 2 dogs you put together, it skips generations. ... You can tackle the problem with a simple operation - hey presto, problem solved, healthy dog.

The ingrowing eye problem will happen no matter what 2 boxers you put together, is that so hard to comprehend? ITS UNAVIODABLE!

defective dog? Thats a lovely term. And your trying to make me out to be the inhumane one here. Ok, that means that every breed is 'defective' then... What part of what im saying dont you understand? Is it that complecated? These problems with dogs come with every breed no matter where they come from.

Have you ever asked yourself why certain defects are now endemic with certain breeds?

It's very simple: It's because irresponsible breeders (mostly those with the dollar signs in their eyes) keep breeding affected dogs regardless. If they can cover up the defect with a small operation, all the better.

Take your blinkers off and look at the big picture.

red_ice

Cheers Intothesea

peasant wrote: »

All pups need to have early contact with humans in order to become familiar with them. That involves careful handling and gentle play. No young pup should be left as a plaything for young children to tear the legs off it.

That apllies to ALL pups, regardless if they are for show, sale or keeping.

Jesus, someone slap this guy. READ MY PREVIOUS POSTS! Again your going nowhere. You seem to be stuck in this little bubble of yours which makes me have to remind you IVE ALREADY SAID THE EXACT SAME THING 3 POSTS AGO.

peasant wrote: »

Advising people to treat show dogs differently from others goes to show again that it is all about the money and not what is right for the dogs.

No. Your wrong, stop, please stop, your talking crap.

peasant wrote: »

It's because irresponsible breeders (mostly those with the dollar signs in their eyes) keep breeding affected dogs regardless. If they can cover up the defect with a small operation, all the better.

Take your blinkers off and look at the big picture.

The big picture is that you are an idiot. Ill say it again and for the last time. Its not about money

<edit>
Infact i dont even recall saying anything about money ever.
I simply said that a potential owner will not take it on if the animal has a leg growing inwards etc. Thats a home that the dog will never get. When after all, its about getting the dogs into a good home, never once did i mention money.
</edit>

peasant

red_ice wrote: »

Jesus, someone slap this guy.

No. Your wrong, stop, please stop, your talking crap.

The big picture is that you are an idiot.

Hmm ... I always enjoy an educated conversation

red_ice

An educated conversation is built on a simple foundation that involves listening/reading what someone else says and putting forward a sound arguement. Not pretending they said something else and attacking them at any chance because you disagree with what little you took from their point.

I really enjoy a good educated conversation, thats why im actually putting effort into talking to Ruby, you on the other hand are a muppet. Stick to the topic of conversation and stop trying to start arguements,

peasant

red_ice wrote: »

An educated conversation is built on a simple foundation that involves listening/reading what someone else says and putting forward a sound arguement. Not pretending they said something else and attacking them at any chance because you disagree with what little you took from their point.

I really enjoy a good educated conversation, thats why im actually putting effort into talking to Ruby, you on the other hand are a muppet. Stick to the topic of conversation and stop trying to start arguements,

Read your posts over from the beginning and reflect on what you've written.

First you say not to play with pups, then you do, then you say only to do so in certain cases and not in others ...but at no point do you differentiate between necessary socialisation, gentle handling and inappropriate mangling of pups by little children ...you just call it "play".

The real gem is this though:

Originally Posted by red_ice
All healthy dogs come across problems. Charles' are known for having weak hearts for example. Another would be my gf's german shepard who has hip dysplacia, these illness come as part of the breed

Will you ever understand that a CKC with heart disease or a GS with hip dysplasia is NOT a healthy dog? It may win as many shows as it wants, that dog is sick.

Breeding from it (as you normally would with a show winner) perpetuates that sickness down the line. That is wrong on so many levels, but you will not acknowledge that.

It is equally wrong to advise somebody to breed off a bitch that has entropion.
It is downright cynical to advise that person to get the OP done first, so that the entropion isn't visible anymore when the time comes to sell the pups.
One could even call that fraud.

Have you got it now?

Morganna

I have bred and still do breed dogs for show /obedience.I would never ever breed from a dog with a genetic hereditary defect.Red Ice you are totally wrong to say get the dogs eyes done as soon as possible.If the dog has entropian then she should not be bred from.I bred Cavaliers for years had crufts first prize winners and never did one of my pups /dogs have heart problems .I know cavaliers have a problem but i never bred a dog or pup with a bad heart .Also my German shepherds i am selective with them to .I would never breed from a dog that had any genetic defect.Also pups should be handled and socialised and played with .What a load of rubbish red ice you talk .A pup that is destined for the show ring needs to be socialised and handled as does the pet pup.I dont think you know what you are talking about .

Morganna

peasant wrote: »

Wasting time, eyh?

How about wasting the poor dogs' lives. If a stop to stupid line breeding and show breeding is what it takes to make dogs healthier, than that's what it takes.

Neither is it heplful to dogs' health to encourage any old dog owner to breed from a defective dog, no matter how well founded or researched your advice may be (which it isn't ...it's just about maximising money in your case)


(Where's shinners when you need her? )

Peasant please dont tar all show breeders with the same brush there are show people who would never breed from a dog with a hereditary defect .Me being one of them .

peasant

Sorry, morganna, that wasn't my intention

Morganna

peasant wrote: »

Sorry, morganna, that wasn't my intention

Appology accepted .It does make me mad though when breeders or show people or otherwise breed from dogs with hereditary defects .No dog with a hereditary defect or unsuitable temperament or bad conformation should be bred from .And anyone selling pups should really check the home first .

lightening

red_ice wrote: »

If you are selling them for showing then you really cant play with the pups at all.... Get the OP done asap, and try have it ready by the time you are selling the pups.... All healthy dogs come across problems.... these illness come as part of the breed... its no skin off my noise what he/she decides to do with the pups..... word will spread if its a good quality pup and you could start to make a pretty penny off of it too.... Jesus, someone slap this guy

Nice. I really don't feel like trusting breeders now. Peasant, he is doing you a favour, more people reading this will go after unwanted dogs now. He is painting the breeder fraternity as money hungry nuts who will breed anything, hide any defect to "make a pretty penny".

red_ice

peasant wrote: »

Read your posts over from the beginning and reflect on what you've written.

First you say not to play with pups, then you do, then you say only to do so in certain cases and not in others ...but at no point do you differentiate between necessary socialisation, gentle handling and inappropriate mangling of pups by little children ...you just call it "play".

ok, well now we can progress. I have stated that there needs to be interaction with the dogs and of course you can chuck a ball with them. I was saying from a showing pov you cant play with them like an average dog. I will be more spacific with my termanology from now on. Its clear that im the 'bad guy' in this conversation, so ill pick my words from now on.

peasant wrote: »

The real gem is this though:

Will you ever understand that a CKC with heart disease or a GS with hip dysplasia is NOT a healthy dog? It may win as many shows as it wants, that dog is sick.

I should really put this straight, i really dont care about showing dogs etc - that was my fathers passion. Im simply trying to pass on advice on what is best for the pups if she wants to sell them. That aside, I do understand that those deseaes etc make the dog unhealthy, but they still live a good life. The GS(my personal fav breed) is nearly 11 years of age, its only kicked in in the last year, even at that its only noticable once every week or so when she gets a little excited. Do you honestly think that my gfs gs shouldnt have been born? She has lived a great life and is loved. She makes us happy, i love it to bits. Im a bit soft atm with it as we just had a few 'lumps' removed from her atm. The GS is a fantastic breed.

peasant wrote: »

Breeding from it (as you normally would with a show winner) perpetuates that sickness down the line. That is wrong on so many levels, but you will not acknowledge that.

I will, but ingrowing eyelids are not a serious defect! Our bitch that had it got it at the age of 2 and lived past 10. After her operation it never came back. If it was something more serious of course i would be agasint breeding it if it was a known breed issue, then again, i dont breed dogs, again, my father did and they were all healthy. Do you honestly think that something as little as that means a dog cant breed? cmon, a simple operation will mean that dog will be fine. That in mind, is that a reason to deny a mother from having pups?

peasant wrote: »

It is equally wrong to advise somebody to breed off a bitch that has entropion.
It is downright cynical to advise that person to get the OP done first, so that the entropion isn't visible anymore when the time comes to sell the pups.
One could even call that fraud.

Have you got it now?

sigh! I have said on a number of occations that you have to inform the new owners of the bloodline and that looking into it is part of getting a new dog. I know what you are saying, but you've over looked what i already said on that matter. So no its not fraud. I wasnt being cynical in telling them to doop the potential owners. Its common sense that a dog will need to look after her pups, it will be a bit hard to do if she cant see them properly.

Morganna wrote: »

If the dog has entropian then she should not be bred from.

Well our bitch had it and she turned out fine. It was tackled early, and resolved within the week never to return. I dont see an ingrowing eyelid as a reason to ignore a chance of life, it can be fixed very easy.

Morganna wrote: »

I bred Cavaliers for years had crufts first prize winners and never did one of my pups /dogs have heart problems .I know cavaliers have a problem but i never bred a dog or pup with a bad heart .

Same with our dogs, best of breed in crufts. They always placed. You know cavaliers have problems, and how do you know that 5-10 generations ago your line didnt have heart problems? They skip generations as we have already stated. Its near unaviodable.

Morganna wrote: »

Also my German shepherds i am selective with them to .I would never breed from a dog that had any genetic defect.

My gfs GS has pups before they found out about the HD. As with most people they only find out about it at a later stage of life. Are you still in contact with the people you got your dogs off of? Have to checked up on the line since you got them? Because if not, you are a potential hypocrite - and i dont mean to offend you with that comment.

Morganna wrote: »

Also pups should be handled and socialised and played with .What a load of rubbish red ice you talk .A pup that is destined for the show ring needs to be socialised and handled as does the pet pup.I dont think you know what you are talking about .

Excellent another one whos just read the first and last post and missed the middle section. I love how your already repeating alot of what i've already said and people are now agreeing with you haha.

The ingrowing eyes is not a problem. Lets not use that as an example. A weak heart - yea, thats a problem. I dont even know what im bothering trying to explain myself. Your using me a representitive of breeders? lol. Where did i once say i bred dogs? Im 24 years of age and had 4 dogs which i loved to bits. One of them had ingrowing eyelids which was fixed very quickly. So the person who gave me the chance to have that bitch is a horrible person for giving me a new best friend for 11 odd years? How dare you say that to me. Who the fk do you think you are telling me or saying that my father cant give someone else the opertunity to have a healthy dog(yes, the eye sh1t included as it is fixed easily.) Your the cruel people for saying that someone could deny another person a companion like that. It brings me back to my point of people with MS having kids, should they be denied the chance to raise a family? I should hope fking not.

Morganna wrote: »

Appology accepted .It does make me mad though when breeders or show people or otherwise breed from dogs with hereditary defects .No dog with a hereditary defect or unsuitable temperament or bad conformation should be bred from .And anyone selling pups should really check the home first .

you are a tool. Read the full conversation before you go posting that crap. That was already addressed in and around, the 6th post. And i have said in nearly all my posts that the people should check the homes. Stop trying to put yourself up on a hightower here by trying to make me out to be a bad person, your being an ignorant twat.

lightening wrote: »

Nice. I really don't feel like trusting breeders now. Peasant, he is doing you a favour, more people reading this will go after unwanted dogs now. He is painting the breeder fraternity as money hungry nuts who will breed anything, hide any defect to "make a pretty penny".

ANOTHER FKING TOOL! Read the posts you absolute gimp. I never once said it was about money. Ill say this for the last fking time. Its about getting the pups into a good home.

Do you people just get an idea in your head and start waffling ****e about it? Read up on previous posts, then construct an arguement or conversation around it. Its like talking to a two year old, really it is. I seriously dont even know why im even bothering with you two, your just so arrogant. You blatently havnt bothered reading the previous posts. Otherwise i wouldnt be having this conversation with you. Jesus.

Morganna

Morganna wrote: »

I have bred and still do breed dogs for show /obedience.I would never ever breed from a dog with a genetic hereditary defect.Red Ice you are totally wrong to say get the dogs eyes done as soon as possible.If the dog has entropian then she should not be bred from.I bred Cavaliers for years had crufts first prize winners and never did one of my pups /dogs have heart problems .I know cavaliers have a problem but i never bred a dog or pup with a bad heart .Also my German shepherds i am selective with them to .I would never breed from a dog that had any genetic defect.Also pups should be handled and socialised and played with .What a load of rubbish red ice you talk .A pup that is destined for the show ring needs to be socialised and handled as does the pet pup.I dont think you know what you are talking about .

As i said previously please do not tar all breeders /show breeders with the same brush

Morganna

Red Ice i am not an ignorant t...t.I have studied genetics and hereditary defects at Liverpool university for one .Yes i know defects ccan skip generations which is why no dog with a hereditaery defect should be bred from.also i breed my own lines have been breding dogd since the 60s .So i do know what im talking about .I suggest you do some studying .What if you sold a pup with entropian and the people did nothing about it .The pain that animal would go through with sore eyes So get a life you eejit and learn a code of ethics .

lightening

red_ice wrote: »

ANOTHER FKING TOOL! Read the posts you absolute gimp. I never once said it was about money. Ill say this for the last fking time.

You did, you talked about making a pretty penny.

red_ice wrote: »

Do you people just get an idea in your head and start waffling ****e about it?

No, I read your posts. You are obviously not very well up and pretty ignorant regarding the subject. Now less of the name calling, calm yourself down. I'm not a tool.

Morganna

Red ice my family started breeding gsds in the 1930s so i know what im talking about .eejit

Glowing

red_ice, you keep talking about denying the dog to the right of having pups - if everyone breed their 'wonderfully healthy' dogs just because they felt that it wasn't fair to deny the bitch that, what state do you think the pounds and shelters in this country would be in? Do you not think they're full enough? What's wrong with just selectively breeding a few HEALTHY dogs with proven lines ....no you can't go back 10 generations, but you can certainly do your best to ensure your pups are not going to carry on the genetic defects, and if you have to go back as far as the records go, so be it.

-You also mention denying the the owners the right to have a companion - there are THOUSANDS of pups, pedigrees and crossbreeds in shelters around the country, nobody is denying anybody any companion, you don't have to breed your bitch to get a companion!!!! You just rescue one that has already been irresponsibly bred. :rolleyes:

leopardus

I have to say that this whole exchange has been a real eye opener into the mentality that has lead to the degeneration of a lot of breeds. The very fact that you don't consider breeding an animal with a genetic defect, that will be perpetuated in offspring, as something that should be avioded at all costs is shocking!

They skip generations as we have already stated. Its near unaviodable.

These gentic defects 'skip generations' if they are recessive and are only expressed when homozygous for the gene, it is in fact very aviodable. It involves not breeding from animals who show the trait; and are then obviously homozygous (have two copies of the deleterous gene).

My gfs GS has pups before they found out about the HD. As with most people they only find out about it at a later stage of life.

Most responsible owners would have dogs of breeds known to have a high incidence of hip/ elbow dysplasia (such as german shepherd dogs) x-rayed to ensure the joints are okay before they would consider breeding. This is done so that you can prevent perpetuating the disease (by not breeding) even before it becomes symptomatic in the dam/sire.

That in mind, is that a reason to deny a mother from having pups?

Absolutely yes. Not breeding from dogs with inherited genetic disease should go without saying.

Glowing

Very well put Leopardus.

Morganna

Yes Leopardus genetic defects are avoidable if only people would study pedigrees and genetics .As in collie eye anomaly one parent can be clear mated to an affected dog some pups will be clear but carriers and other pups will be affected and carriers.I wish people before they embark on breedind dogs would do an indepth study of genetics.As regards the collie eye both parents should be clear and from clear stock .If people only took time to study genetics .

Intothesea

Absolutely yes. Not breeding from dogs with inherited genetic disease should go without saying.

I agree that in Utopia this would be followed,
but inherent issues like these are rife not
necessarily because of irresponsible breeding,
but because desire to preserve the breed
standard is so strong. In days when dogs had
real jobs conformation didn't matter quite
so much. I don't agree either but there you
have it.

The issue with an animal that expresses
a certain genetic tendency is to breed
either not at all or 'away' from the
expression. Either of these options is
responsible breeding IMO.

leopardus

This is shamelessly taken from a report entitled "The Price of a Pedigree" it's available online.

• In 2005, Finnish and Dutch animal scientists, writing in the journal Animal Welfare,
  commented:

‘The dogs that most closely meet the rigorous standards regulating their external characteristics, as
demonstrated by their success at breed shows, are most in demand for use in breeding. Even unhealthy,
exaggerated conformations are desired in the standards of some breeds. Together with the use of
inbreeding as a common mating system, this has led to a growing number of breed-specific hereditary
problems.’

• In 1999, animal scientists at the University of Sydney commented:

‘Some breed standards and selection practices run counter to the welfare interests of dogs, to the extent
that some breeds are characterized by traits that may be difficult to defend on welfare grounds.
Meanwhile, little selection pressure seems to be exerted on some traits that would improve animal
welfare and produce dogs better suited to modern society. Unfortunately, the incidence of certain
inherited defects in some breeds is unacceptably high, while the number of registered animals of certain
breeds within some countries is so low as to make it almost impossible for breeders to avoid mating
close relatives’.

• In the late 1990s, a Royal Veterinary College expert in ophthalmology wrote in a forum on
  genetics and animal welfare:

‘Within the world of the pedigree dog, competition is extreme – and breeding policy based on
dedication to breed type has resulted in the appearance of some 300 inherited diseases among canine
species worldwide...n essence these are man-made diseases, and, as such, largely preventable.
Inbreeding to enhance desired appearance or performance can mean that the effective gene pool is
restricted and the control of inherited diseases can be difficult.’

We bred Chow Chows, imo they are a fine dog. If you think they should be one of those breeds to die out, you need your head checked. The same with boxers and German Shepards

.

Recommendations were made by vererinary experts of signatory countries of a European convention for pet animals on how best to implement article 5 .
(Article 5: Breeding: Any person who selects a pet animal for breeding shall be responsible for having regard
to the anatomical, physiological and behavioural characteristics which are likely to put at risk the health and
welfare of either the offspring or the female parent)

The breed characteristics that the Resolution considers sufficiently harmful they need to be changed include:

1. Abnormal size and form of eyes or eyelids (e.g. ectropion: Bassethound, Bloodhound, St. Bernard ); small deep lying eyes with disposition to entropion: (e.g. Chow Chow)
2. abnormal positions of legs (e.g. very steep line of hind legs in Chow Chow to avoid
   difficulties in movement and joint degeneration;
   

Don't even get me started on German Shepherd Dogs!

red_ice

Morganna wrote: »

Red Ice i am not an ignorant t...t.I have studied genetics and hereditary defects at Liverpool university for one .Yes i know defects ccan skip generations which is why no dog with a hereditaery defect should be bred from.

And what if you find out at a later stage in their life, like i've already said?

Morganna wrote: »

I suggest you do some studying .What if you sold a pup with entropian and the people did nothing about it .The pain that animal would go through with sore eyes So get a life you eejit and learn a code of ethics.

I dont need to study something that i dont want to persue. Where did i say that our bitch with entropian had pups? I dont recall saying that.. Stop making assumptions you fking tool. Everyones arguement is based on assumptions here, its stupid.

lightening wrote: »

You did, you talked about making a pretty penny.

I said you could make some money on it yea, but i never said thats what breeding is about, finding the perfect dog and mating it regardless of its condition and selling off the perfect show pup? I NEVER SAID THAT. I simply said, check the blood line and make sure its ok. Something which you lot are trying to use against me to strengthen your argument, its fking hilarious that your doing that - your only repeating something that i've already said lol.

lightening wrote: »

No, I read your posts. You are obviously not very well up and pretty ignorant regarding the subject. Now less of the name calling, calm yourself down. I'm not a tool.

TBH, if you would have to repeat the same points over and over again from a number of poeple giving out to me for offering some friendly advice on a pups well being and chances of getting into a wider selection of homes then maybe we wouldnt be here would we? Im sick of repeating my arguement. I will most definitly calm down as im sick of repeating myself. From now on, anyone who trys to have a go at me or make a point which we have already covered and use it against me will just be ignored. That will make me chill alot easier, i shouldnt have to repeat this crap in EVERY SINGLE POST!

Morganna wrote: »

Red ice my family started breeding gsds in the 1930s so i know what im talking about .eejit

And every single one came out perfect? I seriously fking doubt it.

Glowing wrote: »

What's wrong with just selectively breeding a few HEALTHY dogs with proven lines ....no you can't go back 10 generations, but you can certainly do your best to ensure your pups are not going to carry on the genetic defects, and if you have to go back as far as the records go, so be it.

Is that not what i've been saying for the last god knows how long? Checking the bloodline etc? You guys are calling me inhumane etc for saying to do that exact fking point. jesus christ.

Glowing wrote: »

-You also mention denying the the owners the right to have a companion - there are THOUSANDS of pups, pedigrees and crossbreeds in shelters around the country, nobody is denying anybody any companion, you don't have to breed your bitch to get a companion!!!! You just rescue one that has already been irresponsibly bred. :rolleyes:

You do if you want a certain breed. I just love how your hung up on the whole irresponsibly bred thing. Its class. Your previous post then is contradicting what i just answered for you. Jesus Christ x2.

leopardus wrote: »

This is shamelessly taken from a report entitled "The Price of a Pedigree" it's available online.

URL pls as when i googled a couple of those lines they came out different to what you pasted. As if they were edited or something

Glowing

Red Ice - Yes or No.....

Do you think given the OP's dog's condition, that he should breed her?

peasant

red-ice

Just stop digging

And don't call people tools all the time

lightening

red_ice wrote: »

poeple giving out to me for offering some friendly advice on a pups well being

Eh, crap advice in fairness. You don't seem to know your arse from your elbow.

Ruby Soho

"My gfs GS has pups before they found out about the HD. As with most people they only find out about it at a later stage of life"

Just saw this now Red-Ice, ever hear of a little thing called 'hip-scoring'? Should be the very first port of call for anyone even considering breeding from a GSD. Look I'm not trying to nit-pick but you have contradicted yourself time and time again. No I'm not a vet, I'm a nurse working in a busy SA practice, and yes, I take hip scores all the time so I do know what I'm talking about. I have also seen first hand the sad results of unscrupulous breeders who choose to ignore hereditary problems in their dogs. Yes, I can give plenty of examples...
I don't really care that these people can breed show dogs, I care that the poor buggers are lame by the time they hit two years old because of congenital skeletal abnormalities.

red_ice

Glowing wrote: »

Red Ice - Yes or No.....

Do you think given the OP's dog's condition, that he should breed her?

Personally i think thats ok because it is a minor problem. If the pups get it, it can be fixed very simply and the dog will live a very normal life.

peasant wrote: »

And don't call people tools all the time

Then stop making me have to repeat myself :DDDdd

Ruby Soho wrote: »

"My gfs GS has pups before they found out about the HD. As with most people they only find out about it at a later stage of life"

Just saw this now Red-Ice, ever hear of a little thing called 'hip-scoring'? Should be the very first port of call for anyone even considering breeding from a GSD.

Im only with my gf a year now. They got the dog checked and it was given the all clear at the age of 4. She had a litter, then she got something which ment her womb had to be removed. That put an end to that. Considering its only come into effect in the last year as i said and the fact that she is now 12(i think). It would have been over looked or missed i can only assume. It could even be just old age, we are going under the assumption its HD as her hind quarters are weaker than the front.

Ruby Soho wrote: »

Look I'm not trying to nit-pick but you have contradicted yourself time and time again.

The only contradiction i see is the playing with the pups at an early age, which i still dont really see as a full on contradiction just what i've heard.

Ruby Soho wrote: »

I have also seen first hand the sad results of unscrupulous breeders who choose to ignore hereditary problems in their dogs. Yes, I can give plenty of examples...

So ingrowing eyelids are a serious problem which require serious surgery?(all surgery is serious, but you know what i mean).

Ruby Soho wrote: »

I don't really care that these people can breed show dogs, I care that the poor buggers are lame by the time they hit two years old because of congenital skeletal abnormalities.

And we came to an agreement earlier on that such breeding is terrible. Weak hearts, bad skeletal structure etc is a horrible thing to put an animal through. I however think that the OP's problem is not really a problem at all. Do you see it as a serious problem, even if ingrowing eyelids wont effect their quality of life if its treated? Am i being attacked because you people think i agree with breeding dogs regardless of their quality of life? If thats what you lot are getting at im going to step back from the conversation once and for all because my points are obviously not getting through to you.