Eastern Bypass and Outer Ring Road back on agenda

lostexpectation

if they want more room howabout not selling all their land for fancy apartments and offices

de breeze

Not really a question of 'room' what's driving port expansion is the need for deep water berths to accommodate bigger ships. Ports from Belfast to Rotterdam are all doing the same

Carawaystick

I'm sorry, where is the route coming from the east of Dublin that warrants a bypass? the M11, the N81?

what major route comes into Dublin at Goatstown?

would traffic coming onto the M50 at RedCow, go south to goatstown, north along a new route pay their 6 (or 12) euros toll on the m50 tunnel to get to the M1 or Dublin Airport?

would it even make sense if the tunnel was free?

John_C

Carawaystick wrote: »

what major route comes into Dublin at Goatstown?

The new link road from the M50 goes to Goatstown, the proposal is to extend it as far as the port tunnel.

de breeze

Carawaystick wrote: »

I'm sorry, where is the route coming from the east of Dublin that warrants a bypass? the M11, the N81?

what major route comes into Dublin at Goatstown?

would traffic coming onto the M50 at RedCow, go south to goatstown, north along a new route pay their 6 (or 12) euros toll on the m50 tunnel to get to the M1 or Dublin Airport?

would it even make sense if the tunnel was free?

What city bypass anywhere ends in a €1bn tunnel that is priced to keep traffic out? Remember, the reason the tolls are set @ €12 is because the street network from the Point onwards including eastlink aren't capable of taking extra traffic at peak time.

Irish and Proud

de breeze wrote: »

What city bypass anywhere ends in a €1bn tunnel that is priced to keep traffic out? Remember, the reason the tolls are set @ €12 is because the street network from the Point onwards including eastlink aren't capable of taking extra traffic at peak time.

DCC policy is about facilitating public transport (aspects of which I agree and disagree with!) while accommodating freight movement. The DPT is mainly for the purpose of accommodating the said freight traffic and not for creating an underground linear car park. This would be very unsafe in the event of a fire which would spread quickly from vehicle to vehicle. Also, the DCC would prefer an unobstructed route for the port traffic. No matter how much capacity the streets of Dublin would have, it would quickly fill up with cars which would be very unsustainable.

Regards!

mysterious

Irish and Proud wrote: »

DCC policy is about facilitating public transport (aspects of which I agree and disagree with!) while accommodating freight movement. The DPT is mainly for the purpose of accommodating the said freight traffic and not for creating an underground linear car park. This would be very unsafe in the event of a fire which would spread quickly from vehicle to vehicle. Also, the DCC would prefer an unobstructed route for the port traffic. No matter how much capacity the streets of Dublin would have, it would quickly fill up with cars which would be very unsustainable.

Regards!

Oh and don't build high rise in Dublin they might fall over and kill people.

This talk is FARCE! Tunnells are built all over the world for christ sake. They are built to the highest possible safety measures. Irish and proud you actually sound redicoulous. You No what why build the port tunnel? thats dangerous a wast of 760million, shocking. Oh lets not do rock climbing, thats dangerous too. This talk is crap.

This city needs this infastructure. To complete the full ring. The city needs another entrance by motoway from the south and west side. The Westlink cannot cater for all the motorway movements in to one bridge across the liffey. For example the N7 at Inchicore is chronicly congested every single day and the situation worsened under the M50 upgrade works. The N7 of 6lanes go into a urban single lane road. The N11 traffic that enter's the city is in the region 50,000 a day. Traffic needs to circulate onto the complete ring road. Once that's built We can have a complete road network and of course focus and complete the Metro etc. I'm all up for proper public transport. But good road network is also important. Or at least a proper motorway/radial system to circulate traffic.

de breeze

Irish and Proud wrote: »

The DPT is mainly for the purpose of accommodating the said freight traffic and not for creating an underground linear car park. This would be very unsafe in the event of a fire which would spread quickly from vehicle to vehicle.

The tunnel capacity is 100,000 vehicles a day to suggest it should be for exclusive use of 10,000 trucks is absurd.

A Euro directive outlaws queuing in the tunnel and procedures are in place to ensure compliance. Hence the fire scenario portrayed will not arise. In any event fires in tunnels are extremely rare.

whosedaddy?

my problem with those gand plans is that they always have (and probably always will) lack either proper research or communication of the results of that research. Either way people will not understand the rational and you end up with strongly opposed PRO and CON factions.

Dublin has so many transport problems, that its difficult to please everyone at the same time.

There is the congested M50.. where is a proper traffic analysis about the origin and destination of all that traffic. IF a large proportion congesting the M50 is that through traffic from SW to N / N to SW, well then taking those cars off the road with an outer ring road will help Dublin and its indiginous traffic.

Reducing Dublin commuter traffic with

a high quality public transport system in the Greater Dublin Area will result removing cars off the roads and freeing up space for goods and services.

plus

The main reason why I champion Public Transport over road projects, particularly the eastern by-pass, is that commuters, who use cars to travel to and from work, have severely effected my business over the years by clogging the roads of Dublin. It has and continues to cost Dublin Business billions of euros every year.

Well, I'm sorry I affected your business, by going to work...
If you are saying roads should be only used by businesses transporting goods or services and others should use public transport to go to work is a slap in the face for the majority of people trying to earn a living across the city.
Most people would use public transport if the commuting times were comparable, but they aren't.

The problem is that a high quality public transport system is only half the solution. It needs to be efficient and cost effective... As vast parts of Dublin and greater Dublin area a low density developments, you have a job on your hand to deliver all of that... Cost and time will be easily spiralling out of control... the more peoples properties are affected, the more will object and bring the project to a crawl.

Unless there is proper strategy to get Dublin moving again through a combination of public transport, removing traffic bottlenecks and forward looking planning, so everyone can buy into it and support it,people will always look for the quick fix that will solve THEIR problem.

Is the Eastern bypass necessary? If it was there right now, it would probably help. Will it be needed once it's completed in XX years, or could the money it cost invested into more useful projects, I don't know.

But the way things are going on oil prices, we might see a reduction in car use soon enough... and if its only the large number of unnecessary school runs...

Irish and Proud

de breeze wrote: »

Irish and Proud wrote: »

The DPT is mainly for the purpose of accommodating the said freight traffic and not for creating an underground linear car park. This would be very unsafe in the event of a fire which would spread quickly from vehicle to vehicle.

The tunnel capacity is 100,000 vehicles a day to suggest it should be for exclusive use of 10,000 trucks is absurd.

100,000 PCUs/day - Eh??? What???

The DPT has 2 lanes in each direction - the same as the original M50 layout which had up to 100,000 PCUs/day. A D2M road has a design capacity of 55,000 PCUs, and that's without terminating same on city streets.

de breeze wrote: »

A Euro directive outlaws queuing in the tunnel and procedures are in place to ensure compliance. Hence the fire scenario portrayed will not arise. In any event fires in tunnels are extremely rare.

Are you so sure mate?

Well, there were at least 2 major tunnel fires in the Alps since 2000 - one of which was in the Mt. Blanc Tunnel. In case you say that there were no tunnel fires in countries like Britain, the tunnels there are quite short by comparison to the DPT (with the exeption of those under the Mersey). This would be a major factor in reducing fire risk. Speaking of length, I don't think the Eastern By-pass Tunnel will be exactly short either - In fact, I think it might be even longer than the DPT if it has to go under Booterstown etc.

In any case, how do you propose to ensure compliance with European tunnel safety standards, if the cars are subject to tolls on a normal basis like the Westlink, and how do you propose to filter an extra 55k PCUs through city streets - Oh Yeah, the Eastern Bypass??? - with just 4 lanes I suppose like the DPT - of course, the lanes would have to be consistant through the DPT and Eastern By-pass - otherwise, the Eastern By-pass would certainly back up. So basically, you are going to tell me that a 4 lane motorway is going to serve the city's needs???

Well, good luck mate!

Irish and Proud

mysterious wrote: »

Oh and don't build high rise in Dublin they might fall over and kill people.

This talk is FARCE! Tunnells are built all over the world for christ sake. They are built to the highest possible safety measures. Irish and proud you actually sound redicoulous. You No what why build the port tunnel? thats dangerous a wast of 760million, shocking. Oh lets not do rock climbing, thats dangerous too. This talk is crap.

The Port Tunnel is mainly for freight traffic - that is exactly what it was built for, and it is doing (well for the most part) exactly what is was built for: to allow freight traffic to access Dublin Port efficiently while freeing up the city's streets for public transport. Please read up the history relating to the tunnel for God's sake - after all, I followed this project with great interest from the very beginning. It was never planned to be a conventional motorway.

BTW, I'm all for some high rise - I'd like to see a few proper sky-scrapers in the city. The U2 tower proposal looks aesthetically poor and underpowered, why not build one or two sky-scrapers around 50 to 80 stories tall in the docklands - I saw a photo of an 80 floor sky-scraper model which was mistakenly identified as the U2 tower, but was actually a proposal for Dubai. I wish it was the U2 tower - it's a far nicer building which would make a far more powerful statement for Dublin IMO.

mysterious wrote: »

This city needs this infastructure. To complete the full ring. The city needs another entrance by motoway from the south and west side. The Westlink cannot cater for all the motorway movements in to one bridge across the liffey. For example the N7 at Inchicore is chronicly congested every single day and the situation worsened under the M50 upgrade works. The N7 of 6lanes go into a urban single lane road. The N11 traffic that enter's the city is in the region 50,000 a day. Traffic needs to circulate onto the complete ring road. Once that's built We can have a complete road network and of course focus and complete the Metro etc. I'm all up for proper public transport. But good road network is also important. Or at least a proper motorway/radial system to circulate traffic.

IMO, the Eastern By-pass will only be viable if it's integrated as part of a future sea defence project across Dublin Bay in light of rising sea levels (if rising sea levels turn out to be true). The DOOR would be a much more viable project. Also, why not complete that outer ring (R136) across the Liffey Valley in conjunction with the Metro West project.

Now, what the city needs ASAP is that rail interconnector. As an everyday rail commuter, the need for it is so obvious - it would multiply city centre passenger throughput four fold. Also, I was against the Metro North when I thought the cost would be €5bn. However at €3.2bn, it might be a very good idea, especially with a design life of 120 years. That's not the mention the LUAS - it's excellent any time I've used it!

Regards!

Carawaystick

firstly the Mont Blanc Tunnel fire was in March 99. All motorway tunnels in Europe have been upgraded since then to new rules that came into force since then.

Driving around europe you'll see traffic lights before tunnels on motorways, even short ones of about 150m in Spain.
Traffic is stopped from entering the m50 tunnel when it cannot exit freely.

the m50 tunnel has no hard shoulders, compared to the original section, I don't see how capacity could be comparable. the toll plaza is much smaller at east wall

Again I ask where the source of traffic coming towards Dublin at Goatstown that requires an eastern bypass is?
At the minute the M11 traffic using the M50 to bypass Dublin is the only candidate. are people expecting a several billion road project to allow cars in dublin city get to the airport quicker than by using the upgraded M50? or for motorists in Stilorgan to get to the city centre easier than by using the N11 QBC or the Luas? The arguments for the eastern bypass seem to be along these lines. btw the N11 qbc has a higher capacity than the green luas line.

east of stillorgan, there is the DART line and the Rock road qbc

There are no major routes approaching Dublin from the East that don't require the assistance of a captain( plane or ship) that's why Dublin doesn't need an eastern bypass.

mysterious

Carawaystick wrote: »

Again I ask where the source of traffic coming towards Dublin at Goatstown that requires an eastern bypass is?
At the minute the M11 traffic using the M50 to bypass Dublin is the only candidate. are people expecting a several billion road project to allow cars in dublin city get to the airport quicker than by using the upgraded M50? or for motorists in Stilorgan to get to the city centre easier than by using the N11 QBC or the Luas? The arguments for the eastern bypass seem to be along these lines. btw the N11 qbc has a higher capacity than the green luas line.

east of stillorgan, there is the DART line and the Rock road qbc

There are no major routes approaching Dublin from the East that don't require the assistance of a captain( plane or ship) that's why Dublin doesn't need an eastern bypass.

What a load of waffle.. I've stressed the points to you, as so did others. You don't need get the figures from others on the goatstown entrance, work it out yourself. Start by getting a map, look at traffic counters, look at the major roads, look at how much traffic that want to get from N1 to N11. Look at the traffic that wants to get from N7 to Dunlaoirghe. What about the H.G.V from the south like the N7, N81 and N11. they still use the south circular and ringsend roads to get to Dublin Port. They are so many many reasons in front of you that you seem to miss.


You obviously don't understand the road network of this city. The M50 cannot cope with the level of traffic that uses it. Its peaks 110,000 before the upgrade. That already reaches a 6 lane requirement. It's already expected to reach 200,000 Once the the M50 is finally upgraded and free again. All the thousands of commuters that have been using rat runs to avoid the M50 jam will now go back onto the M50. All north south, east west traffic + long distance + local traffic use this motorway if not most of Dublins commuters use the M50 already. A city cannot run on only one proper motorway. If the M50 breaks down the city becomes a standstill, which is why I state with the help of an eastern segment, it will then give a complete ring and greatly loosen the despendance on the westlink etc.

The M50 Needs to be complete with the Tunnel at the southern end so it's a complete ring to have a circular ring around Dublin so traffic can either circle around the city or avoid the city and have another viable river liffey crossing from another point. It makes alot of sense, considering the Port tunnel is mostly emply and only used for trucks. Most cities have many motorways radiating and circulating around the city to move populations from one point of the city to the next.


BTW they were YOUR arguments. You don't seem to want to understand the basic's of a basic motorway network around a city. As I've said not all traffic from the west want to go North over the congested Westlink and onto the M1 some want to Go to Dunlaoirghe or the south side of the city. This eastern bypass will great benifet the lives of south and west Dublin.
Most noticeably Walkinstown, Dundrum, Stillorgan, Ichircore, Goatstown, Sandymount and so on.

At the minute the M11 traffic using the M50 bypass Dublin is the only candidate

what about the N1/N2?? Have you seen the traffic that use the N1 into the city and onto the south? Even despite the Port tunnel? The Eastern bypass will ultimately have a postive impact on this part of this city and the N1 Itself. N1 is very heavy route. What about Long distance traffic from the West (such N7 for e.g) that want to go south inner city that currently fly in the redcow and proceed to the likes of the south and east of the city??? An Eastern bypass will greatly benifet that part of the city and areas like Inchicore where thousands of vehicles everyday snale through it to proceed east and south as I've just said above.
What about the relief the eastern alternative will do to the M50 especially at the westlink. It would give the westlink another lung to breath. Just because you can't see these, doesn't mean they are not candidates for an eastern bypass

The NRA have done a feasibitly study and they say its a viable plan. Many people In Sandymount and that area thinks it's viable. the Traffic gridlock and H.G.Vs around Ringsend reminds them of that too. People like myself who are a fan of proper public transport, even thinks it's viable and necessary for an Eastern Bypass.

It's necessary for every city to have a proper road systems and a proper public transport system. It was proposed many years ago. I myself have always thought that there should be a tunnel from the West (N4-N7) to go under the city and onto the N1 or N11 and feed onto suburban routes. This should give great relief for the likes of inchicore and the quays in Dublin. It would then mean the city centre can be pedstrianised and commuters can still get to where they want to go at the same time. Most capital cities of over a million have at least a ring road and a few motorways to connect all the other highways in and out of the city. But anyway getting off the point. The Eastern bypass is what's proposed so the southern entrance is fine, and that will connect with the Portunnel and this will allow a full radial system!

de breeze

N11 volumes for last year were up to 70,000 vpd at Fassaroe. See link below for details. I need to check the figure at Stillorgan, I imagine it's higher.

http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N11-26.htm