Eastern Bypass and Outer Ring Road back on agenda

darkman2

According to the Irish Times today the NRA has given renewed backing to both projects saying the economic arguments were 'immense'. They also said the Outer motorway is at planning stage and the motorway would run from Drogheda to where the M9 meets the M7. The route would be at least 80'kms long.

dmeehan

its covered in the Indo also: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/83642bn-navan-to-newbridge-orbital-road-a-top-priority-1375632.html?r=RSS

paulm17781

That outer ring road is not going to get build anywhere near Sandymount. I wish they'd stop talking about it. It's been touted for 20 years now and the folks in that area aren't going to let it happen. Move on or build a tunnel.

anonymousjunkie

And when are they going to open up that bloody road between the N7 and Tallaght, it looks completed to me.

spacetweek

paulm17781 wrote: »

That outer ring road is not going to get build anywhere near Sandymount. I wish they'd stop talking about it. It's been touted for 20 years now and the folks in that area aren't going to let it happen. Move on or build a tunnel.

You're thinking of the Eastern Bypass. I don't think they ever said they were looking at anything other than a tunnel. You have to use one to get under the sea at any rate.

anonymousjunkie wrote: »

And when are they going to open up that bloody road between the N7 and Tallaght, it looks completed to me.

Yes! At the northern end it has looked completed for around 6 months now.

Sponge Bob

They can build this when they build a proper road from Cork to Derry and Rosslare to Waterford then Limerick and also Cork first ...like they said they would by 2015

There is an eastern bypass called the Dart

de breeze

paulm17781 wrote: »

That outer ring road is not going to get build anywhere near Sandymount. I wish they'd stop talking about it. It's been touted for 20 years now and the folks in that area aren't going to let it happen. Move on or build a tunnel.

In an MRBI opinion poll a couple of years ago a large majority of residents in Sandymount came out in favour of the Eatern Bypass on basis it would take traffic away from the area.

NRA are saying with forecast growth in traffic the project is necessary. However it will be tolled.

invincibleirish

This project gets one big :rolleyes: from me anyway, lets 'deliver' T21s components before anymore projects are proposed (particulalry expensive motorways).

paulm17781

spacetweek wrote: »

You're thinking of the Eastern Bypass. I don't think they ever said they were looking at anything other than a tunnel. You have to use one to get under the sea at any rate.

That's what I meant to type. I thought they were looking at a large bridge?

loyatemu

the outer orbital motorway is MAD. They're going to plough a motorway through 80km of open countryside in order to accomodate traffic going from the south of the country to NI. I can't believe there is that much traffic making that journey to justify a brand new motorway.

dmeehan

loyatemu wrote: »

the outer orbital motorway is MAD. They're going to plough a motorway through 80km of open countryside in order to accomodate traffic going from the south of the country to NI. I can't believe there is that much traffic making that journey to justify a brand new motorway.

its to bring the masses to Ikea

donaghs

spacetweek wrote: »

You're thinking of the Eastern Bypass. I don't think they ever said they were looking at anything other than a tunnel. You have to use one to get under the sea at any rate.

Yes! At the northern end it has looked completed for around 6 months now.

I recall a proposal over 20 years ago to concrete over Sandymount Strand & Booterstown Bird Sanctuary as part of an Eastern by-pass. I assume they'd have used a new bridge to cross the Liffey. Certainly a lot cheaper than a tunnel. As previous poster said, it'll never happen due to objections over losing the strand.

The latest plans involve a tunnel. But I also understand that Dun Laoighaoire-Rathdown Council still maintain various land reservations as part of their Eastern By-pass pipe-dreams (e.g. connecting to the N11 and M50). So if it does go ahead there will be a number of new busy surface roads, some serious bulldozing and compulsory purchase orders.

paulm17781

donaghs wrote: »

I recall a proposal over 20 years ago to concrete over Sandymount Strand & Booterstown Bird Sanctuary as part of an Eastern by-pass. I assume they'd have used a new bridge to cross the Liffey. Certainly a lot cheaper than a tunnel. As previous poster said, it'll never happen due to objections over losing the strand.

The latest plans involve a tunnel. But I also understand that Dun Laoighaoire-Rathdown Council still maintain various land reservations as part of their Eastern By-pass pipe-dreams (e.g. connecting to the N11 and M50). So if it does go ahead there will be a number of new busy surface roads, some serious bulldozing and compulsory purchase orders.

I didn't realise they'd changed it to a tunnel. That would probably be a sensible project. As long as they plan to concrete Sandymount / Booterstown, it won't happen.

Zoney

They should just replace the N52 with 2+2 (dual carriageway with no hard shoulders and wire barrier, just a bit wider than the old wide single carriageway was). That would serve the towns along the route (and provide them with bypasses) as well as facilitate southwest<->northeast traffic. They should do likewise with the N80 to facilitate southeast<->northwest traffic and ease traffic issues in Portlaoise, Carlow, etc.

What it comes down to is a need to upgrade the rest of the N network, secondary as well as primary, rather than just leave it at the "interurbans". The N network is reasonably distributed (with just a few gaps) when you include the secondary routes. Certain R roads are important links in the network too - fortunately as the years go on these are slowly but surely improving - far more today with proper surfaces, appropriate streetscaping in towns/villages. As opposed to the previous decades where they got worse each year. I don't see much improvement on secondary N roads though.

loyatemu

Zoney wrote: »

They should just replace the N52 with 2+2 (dual carriageway with no hard shoulders and wire barrier, just a bit wider than the old wide single carriageway was).

I was about to suggest this, but then looked at a map and realised the N52 doesn't go where I thought it went.

There is actually a large gap in the secondary network where they're planning to build this - in effect they'd be extending the M9 through to Drogheda. But gap or no, there's no way there's enough traffic to justify the expense and environmental impact of building a new motorway along this route.

mysterious

Zoney wrote: »

They should just replace the N52 with 2+2 (dual carriageway with no hard shoulders and wire barrier, just a bit wider than the old wide single carriageway was). That would serve the towns along the route (and provide them with bypasses) as well as facilitate southwest<->northeast traffic. They should do likewise with the N80 to facilitate southeast<->northwest traffic and ease traffic issues in Portlaoise, Carlow, etc.

What it comes down to is a need to upgrade the rest of the N network, secondary as well as primary, rather than just leave it at the "interurbans". The N network is reasonably distributed (with just a few gaps) when you include the secondary routes. Certain R roads are important links in the network too - fortunately as the years go on these are slowly but surely improving - far more today with proper surfaces, appropriate streetscaping in towns/villages. As opposed to the previous decades where they got worse each year. I don't see much improvement on secondary N roads though.

NO... no...

A. it would be way more costly.

B. the N52 is far Too long and twisty more complicated to upgrade online. Too many bridges and bypasses etc.

C. Too many segments way far below standard and nearly impossible to upgrade.

D. N52 traffic will not properly at like a circular road to connect the main routes. Cork Traffic will still have go on another upgraded "N62" the large towns such as Nass and Navan will need to connect to the N52, all routes are inadequate. "M40" does what the N52 does and more, in terms of catching population.

E. It will never carry traffic that a motorway/motorway can handle or take off the M50/midland traffic to North routes, and surrounding roads

F. It would take up to 15 years to upgrade the enitre N52....



outer ring road that connects the interurbans through the Midlands is way more viable.:p

mysterious

loyatemu wrote: »

I was about to suggest this, but then looked at a map and realised the N52 doesn't go where I thought it went.

There is actually a large gap in the secondary network where they're planning to build this - in effect they'd be extending the M9 through to Drogheda. But gap or no, there's no way there's enough traffic to justify the expense and environmental impact of building a new motorway along this route.

Yes there is.........

Have you seen the amount of "local" traffic that uses the Naas to Kilcock road to get from M7 to N4??

Do you realise how much traffic from southwest and south that use the M50 to go north via the M1???

Do you know the M50 will still not be able to handle the amount of long distance traffic that will use it, when the inter urbans spill onto it? Even despite the upgrade. NRA also stated the "M40" is needed or ORR. to remove the long distance traffic away from the congested R roads and the M50 Itself.

Do you know that there is not linking N routes between Portloaise, Naas, Navan, Drogheda - Naas, Navan- Naas, Cork - Drogheda, Waterford - Drogeheda, Kilkenny - Drogheda, Cork - Belfast And the entire North to all these towns.. They all have to use the local R roads or use the M50.

It is abasaloutly vital and nessessary that its built. to circulate Motorway traffic away from Dublin.

icdg

Zoney wrote: »

They should just replace the N52 with 2+2 (dual carriageway with no hard shoulders and wire barrier, just a bit wider than the old wide single carriageway was). That would serve the towns along the route (and provide them with bypasses) as well as facilitate southwest<->northeast traffic. They should do likewise with the N80 to facilitate southeast<->northwest traffic and ease traffic issues in Portlaoise, Carlow, etc.

I would have went along with this until I actually saw the N52 between Birr and Nenagh. The road, in particular between Birr and Ballingarry is terrible - I have seen L-Roads better than this - and needs an offline upgrade, widening the existing road just won't cut it. Not much better between Ballingarry and Borriskane either.

Traffic on the N52 is nowhere near dual carriageway levels, though.

jank

Why is this back on the agenda? They should sort out the rest of the roads first around the country.

gjim

Sounds like the NRA are pushing hard for projects, ANY PROJECTS, to justifiy their continuing levels of staffing and budget. Believe it or not we are not going to be commisioning new motorways for ever. We are not far off having sufficient motorway infrastructure in the country given traffic levels. We are close to having "solved" the infrastructure deficit as it applies to roads and the government has recognised this. The NRA people should be getting their CVs into the DTA or RPA instead of pushing less-than-marginal projects like this.

de breeze

gjim wrote: »

Sounds like the NRA are pushing hard for projects, ANY PROJECTS, to justifiy their continuing levels of staffing and budget. Believe it or not we are not going to be commisioning new motorways for ever. We are not far off having sufficient motorway infrastructure in the country given traffic levels. We are close to having "solved" the infrastructure deficit as it applies to roads and the government has recognised this. The NRA people should be getting their CVs into the DTA or RPA instead of pushing less-than-marginal projects like this.

When the interurban motorways are finished (2010) we will have the same motorway density as UK, which is among the lowest in Europe. Also Ireland is one of the very few European countries where population is rising - approaching 8m by 2020 or so. Plus car ownership is increasing and 70% use cars for commuting . Lets build the roads we need and use tolling to manage demand.

Capt'n Midnight

anonymousjunkie wrote: »

And when are they going to open up that bloody road between the N7 and Tallaght, it looks completed to me.

it's cycle able
but there were a few cars and a van on it

there were two junctions with nothing at them yet.

mysterious

the Easturn bypass is vital for Dublin to get traffic in circulation and moving around the city. The other point Dublin will finally have a route where you can travel from the south side of the city to the north without travelling on narrow windy city roads that takes it takes literally hours to get from the south the North side of the city.

The Motorway outer trunk route is more important right now because the goverment designed an inefficient road system where all motorways lead onto the M50.. Bad planning. The M50 will be a multi story car park when the inter urbans are completed. Lonf distance mtorway traffc shoulkd be steering well away from the M50, onto a new M40 which will allow all inter city traffic to any city in Ireland by motorway. It will allow all of the major towns that are not connected to even proper N roads (Naas, Navan, Maynooth e.g) to be on the Motorway grid and of the L roads. This means safer and more efficient for drivers to get around.

weehamster

mysterious wrote: »

the Easturn bypass is vital for Dublin to get traffic in circulation and moving around the city. The other point Dublin will finally have a route where you can travel from the south side of the city to the north without travelling on narrow windy city roads that takes it takes literally hours to get from the south the North side of the city.

The Motorway outer trunk route is more important right now because the goverment designed an inefficient road system where all motorways lead onto the M50.. Bad planning. The M50 will be a multi story car park when the inter urbans are completed. Lonf distance mtorway traffc shoulkd be steering well away from the M50, onto a new M40 which will allow all inter city traffic to any city in Ireland by motorway. It will allow all of the major towns that are not connected to even proper N roads (Naas, Navan, Maynooth e.g) to be on the Motorway grid and of the L roads. This means safer and more efficient for drivers to get around.

And not a single word about of public transport.

mysterious

weehamster wrote: »

And not a single word about of public transport.

If you look at the thread heading you will see what is been disscussed here.

Get back on topic, if you want to discuss about public transport, please DO open another thread on it.

weehamster

mysterious wrote: »

If you look at the thread heading you will see what is been disscussed here.

Get back on topic, if you want to discuss about public transport, please DO open another thread on it.

Well excuse ME your lordship, but public transport has everything to do with this heading. Just for you I will tell you why. THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR THE EASTERN BY-PASS. Not a single reason.

-Need to get to Dublin Port (which will have moved out of there within the next 10-20 years) emm... use the upgraded M50 (Dublin Port tunnel).
-Want to by-pass Dublin, emm... use the upgraded M50 (the Dublin By-Pass).
-Need to get to northside of Dublin from the southside, emm...use Public transport or upgraded M50.
-Upgraded M50 clogged? emm...Build a mass public transport system for the region will get those commuters off that road.

Public Transport is where the cash for this project should go. This project will cost several billions of Euro and is quite simply a pure waist of public spending.

As for the 'Leinster' Outer Ring Road, I don't have any current objections there and has my support as it makes sense.

Major Roads should be built for moving Goods and Services around, not for moving people around in their car's, particularly to and from their work place. That is what Public Transport is for.

Now, if you want to be completely OTT about what people should or should not talk about in threads, maybe you can search Boards.ie for a small spot for it and start a new thread about it.

mysterious

weehamster wrote: »

Well excuse ME your lordship, but public transport has everything to do with this heading. Just for you I will tell you why. THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR THE EASTERN BY-PASS. Not a single reason.

-Need to get to Dublin Port (which will have moved out of there within the next 10-20 years) emm... use the upgraded M50 (Dublin Port tunnel).
-Want to by-pass Dublin, emm... use the upgraded M50 (the Dublin By-Pass).
-Need to get to northside of Dublin from the southside, emm...use Public transport or upgraded M50.
-Upgraded M50 clogged? emm...Build a mass public transport system for the region will get those commuters off that road.

Public Transport is where the cash for this project should go. This project will cost several billions of Euro and is quite simply a pure waist of public spending.

As for the 'Leinster' Outer Ring Road, I don't have any current objections there and has my support as it makes sense.

Major Roads should be built for moving Goods and Services around, not for moving people around in their car's, particularly to and from their work place. That is what Public Transport is for.

Now, if you want to be completely OTT about what people should or should not talk about in threads, maybe you can search Boards.ie for a small spot for it and start a new thread about it.

You don't understand a city's trasport network do you?

You see I know what I'm talking about:)
Let's start shall we.

The M50 at its peak was carrying over 110,00 vehicles a day. Shortly before the upgrade traffic actually started to decrease, and the road's such as the inbound lucan, Longmile, Inchicore, Chapelizod, roads around Lucan and Navan roads got much clogged up as they were used as ratruns. So snce the upgrade traffic has descreased to under 100,000. But when the upgrade is finished it will reach capacity. The limit of this road can handle is 200,000. IT will reach that number in 2010. They are planning a metro west but that still wont solve the traffic problem with the M50. You will see why below.

You said in EVERY single post that every option that EXTRA traffic should use the M50. So your opinions are nonsense. You opinions on a Easturn bypass are nonsense. Half of it's built already the Port tunnel. The Port tunnel takes only a fraction of the traffic is capable of carrying ATM. If it was extended to Sandyford you can bet your arms, it would not be a waste of public money. It would be cheaper than sitting on the M50 wasting time and petrol. It would take thousands off the cities streets, relieve pressure off the westlink. Circulate traffic. open up the southern and northern sides of the city. etc etc...

Dublin DOES lack a proper orbital, it an half orbital that is congested. Most cities. have and Orbital layout like London, Paris Amsterdam. Some have urban trough motorways like Glasgow or Belfast. either way some have both or one and its needs alongside public transport It's vital and necessary to get traffic from one side of the city to the other.

Dublin hasn't got either, just a half orbital that is currently congested. Dublin Needs a proper through road in order to ease traffic crossing the liffeys. This city has no proper north south road. This city does not have a full orbital to keep traffic circulating around the city. The Eastern bypass would be efficient and extremely positive for the city. Plus its a tunnel so it has almost no negative impact on the city's environment.

Dublin cannot survive on only one route crossing over the liffey for all inter - urban, long distance traffic, Airport traffic, Commericial traffic, Local traffic and all other modes of traffic. That's why a through road is needed.

for example there needs to be a western or southern entrance from the city that allows you to commute in a fashion where you start at longmile under a tunnell to the south circular roads etc, or a tunnel at the location of the Eastern bypass begins. There is very few cities of the size of Dublin that only needs on motorway to get a city moving. You see Dublins needs two things a proper road transport system to move goods and commuters through a city and around a city to avoid the CBD. Then you need an intergrated Public transport system. Dublin again, which I've said already has NONE.

You know the irony is, the thread is talking about an ORR/Easternbypass People are discussing it, obviously. You however have just pointed out I'm not talking about public transport. A bit silly to say when you actually haven't shown any of your contribution or pointed out anything on public transport in this thread. You need to start with something rather than pointing out "hes not talking on public transport" waffle...

Anyway Even though this thread is discussing on what the title shows.

But shout your views on public transport, We are waiting.:)

Carawaystick

Where would this eastern bypass go? from the N/M11 to East Wall?
What junctions would be on it?

The M50 westlink will have 4 lanes each direction after the upgrade, with no barrier stopping al the cars crossing the Liffey.

London, Amsterdam, etc have full ring roads as they don't happen to be situated on a coast and have trunk routes arriving in from all directions.
I wouldn't classify the Boulevard Peripherique as any sort of a ring road to aspire to.

Through roads through the city are a throw back to the worst of last century's urban planning.

outline a route for an eastern bypass. I wouldn't classify Longmile as in the east of Dublin City.

I thought there was a dual Carriageway from the M40 at Liffey valley to the South Circular road and leads to the North circular road at Heuston - called the N4

The current M50 tunnels are part of your plan and weehamster's

John_C

Carawaystick wrote: »

outline a route for an eastern bypass.

A reservation's been kept from Goatstown, through the Bank of Ireland sports' grounds, UCD and the Radisson Hotel to the beach and it would go underground from there to meet the Port Tunnel.

weehamster

Sorry, my mistake, I should have used underlined or bold instead of SHOUTING. Sorry again. So, not to keep ye waiting any longer, let's start shall we.

You don't understand a city's trasport network do you?

I work all around Dublin and I depend on the roads to earn an income as I drive a van to get to and from my customers. I drive before, during and after 'rush hour'. So I can safely say that I have a better understanding than your average commuter. Also I use to backpack around Europe, working here and there. Lived in Australia too. So I also have great experience of using superior pubic transport systems, particularly in urban areas.

You see I know what I'm talking about

Hang a sec, let me guess...emm...err... is it about the eastern by-pass.

The M50 at its peak was carrying over... (Sorry some of quote removed.Trying to save space)
They are planning a metro west but that still wont solve the traffic problem with the M50. You will see why below.

Oh, please continue.

You said in EVERY single post that every option that EXTRA traffic should use the M50. So your opinions are nonsense. You opinions on a Easturn bypass are nonsense. Half of it's built already the Port tunnel. The Port tunnel takes only a fraction of the traffic is capable of carrying ATM. If it was extended to Sandyford you can bet your arms, it would not be a waste of public money. It would be cheaper than sitting on the M50 wasting time and petrol. It would take thousands off the cities streets, relieve pressure off the westlink. Circulate traffic. open up the southern and northern sides of the city. etc etc...

Ok hold it right there for a moment. Now lets rewind a bit.

You see I know what I'm talking about

I was wrong earlier on and for that I'm sorry. You really haven't got a slightest clue what your talking about. You see the real problem is that you and others don't even know what the problem really is, let alone try to find a solution.
The problem is that for most people who commute by car, they don't really have an alternative. So they use the roads and clog it up. And until a real alternative is given, more and more cars will use the roads making things worse.

Now before I go any further, please let me explain where I'm coming from. The main reason why I champion Public Transport over road projects, particularly the eastern by-pass, is that commuters, who use cars to travel to and from work, have severely effected my business over the years by clogging the roads of Dublin. It has and continues to cost Dublin Business billions of euros every year.
So I and many others want to see cars removed from the roads, not encouraged to use them. Public transport is far more effective and efficient in moving people, particularly in and to-from urban areas than roads. How does building the eastern by-pass remove cars off the road particularly the ones who are nowhere near it. Like the ones who drive through Lucan, Longmile, Inchicore, Chapelizod, Lucan roads and Navan road? Where are these commuters actually come from is more important than where they drive through. Would it not be better attacking the problem at the source?

A high quality public transport system in the Greater Dublin Area will result removing cars off the roads and freeing up space for goods and services. If will also free up the Dublin city bus network, which despite of bus lanes, is still severely effected by the traffic congestion.

So removing cars off the roads also means removing cars off the M50. This means goods and services can freely use the M50 to bypass Dublin, get to Dublin Port (which will be gone within the next 10-20 years). So just to remind you that the only justification building major roads including the eastern by-pass is for moving Goods and services. If the M50 is freed up, no need for eastern by-pass.

Dublin DOES lack a proper orbital,

Yes it does, but with the upgrade M50 and a European standard public transport system for the Greater Dublin Area, the M50 will be restored as a proper orbital route. Oh by the way, orbital doesn't mean circular. No need for eastern by-pass.

Most cities. have and Orbital layout....(Sorry some of quote removed.Trying to save space)...for example there needs to be a western or southern entrance from the city that allows you to commute in a fashion where you start at longmile under a tunnell to the south circular roads etc, or a tunnel at the location of the Eastern bypass begins.

Oh Christ, please, put away your crayons. You really want to have road tunnels everywhere, don't you. You are aware of the Metro North tram tunnel and the DART interconnector tunnel .There even might be a Metro South Line after T21. I hope your road tunnels avoids them.

You know the irony is, the thread is talking about an ORR/Easternbypass People are discussing it, obviously. You however have just pointed out I'm not talking about public transport. A bit silly to say when you actually haven't shown any of your contribution or pointed out anything on public transport in this thread. You need to start with something rather than pointing out "hes not talking on public transport" waffle...

Right. You were stating that there is an urgent need for the eastern by-pass and you put forward that it is needed for the M50 car park. You stated that the M50 was badly designed etc... All I read was roads, roads and more roads as the solution. That's why all I said was "And not a single word about of public transport." And then you got all uptight about me going off subject. I hope you don't react like that to people face to face. You won't last long if you do.

It is quite clear to me now that you want to live in some kind of urban highway road network utopia. If so, please move to the U.S. Go to Boston. There is a big tunnel going through the city. Or even buy a computer game sim that builds road networks .There must be one out there. But please don't help to kill off the quality of living in Dublin by wishing to build the same here. Things are bad enough as it is. I'm tired typing. I'm off. Have a nice day.

Victor is going to kill me for the size of this. Sorry. I better lay low for a bit

de breeze

Just getting around now to responding to weehamsters post from yesterday.

I truly wish people who obviously know nothing about the ports industry would stop talking about the nonsense of Dublin port 'moving'. Face reality, there are dozens of city ports in Europe. NONE that I know of are proposing to 'move'. Only in Dublin has this crazed notion been raised by ignorant politicians and then seized on by the corpo.The root of the problem here is the city wishing an issue would just go away, instead of actively managing traffic and land use.

If the corpo are seriously concerned about regeneration around docklands why not start with East Wall and Sheriff St? Very low densities here so close to the city is unsustainable but the city is blind to the opportunities.

Its important to emphasise that the EBP is not just about serving the port, it's about improving the M50 which at present is a cul de sac. This was the initial concept going back to the plan developed 20 years ago - the port tunnel was intended as the first phase so its a question of finishing the job.

Weehamster I am a public transport user (on average 2 days/week - I need the car somedays for work) but please bear in mind that no city anywhere manages to go north of 60% PT market share. Its all about mobility and management.

lostexpectation

if they want more room howabout not selling all their land for fancy apartments and offices

de breeze

Not really a question of 'room' what's driving port expansion is the need for deep water berths to accommodate bigger ships. Ports from Belfast to Rotterdam are all doing the same

Carawaystick

I'm sorry, where is the route coming from the east of Dublin that warrants a bypass? the M11, the N81?

what major route comes into Dublin at Goatstown?

would traffic coming onto the M50 at RedCow, go south to goatstown, north along a new route pay their 6 (or 12) euros toll on the m50 tunnel to get to the M1 or Dublin Airport?

would it even make sense if the tunnel was free?

John_C

Carawaystick wrote: »

what major route comes into Dublin at Goatstown?

The new link road from the M50 goes to Goatstown, the proposal is to extend it as far as the port tunnel.

de breeze

Carawaystick wrote: »

I'm sorry, where is the route coming from the east of Dublin that warrants a bypass? the M11, the N81?

what major route comes into Dublin at Goatstown?

would traffic coming onto the M50 at RedCow, go south to goatstown, north along a new route pay their 6 (or 12) euros toll on the m50 tunnel to get to the M1 or Dublin Airport?

would it even make sense if the tunnel was free?

What city bypass anywhere ends in a €1bn tunnel that is priced to keep traffic out? Remember, the reason the tolls are set @ €12 is because the street network from the Point onwards including eastlink aren't capable of taking extra traffic at peak time.

Irish and Proud

de breeze wrote: »

What city bypass anywhere ends in a €1bn tunnel that is priced to keep traffic out? Remember, the reason the tolls are set @ €12 is because the street network from the Point onwards including eastlink aren't capable of taking extra traffic at peak time.

DCC policy is about facilitating public transport (aspects of which I agree and disagree with!) while accommodating freight movement. The DPT is mainly for the purpose of accommodating the said freight traffic and not for creating an underground linear car park. This would be very unsafe in the event of a fire which would spread quickly from vehicle to vehicle. Also, the DCC would prefer an unobstructed route for the port traffic. No matter how much capacity the streets of Dublin would have, it would quickly fill up with cars which would be very unsustainable.

Regards!

mysterious

Irish and Proud wrote: »

DCC policy is about facilitating public transport (aspects of which I agree and disagree with!) while accommodating freight movement. The DPT is mainly for the purpose of accommodating the said freight traffic and not for creating an underground linear car park. This would be very unsafe in the event of a fire which would spread quickly from vehicle to vehicle. Also, the DCC would prefer an unobstructed route for the port traffic. No matter how much capacity the streets of Dublin would have, it would quickly fill up with cars which would be very unsustainable.

Regards!

Oh and don't build high rise in Dublin they might fall over and kill people.

This talk is FARCE! Tunnells are built all over the world for christ sake. They are built to the highest possible safety measures. Irish and proud you actually sound redicoulous. You No what why build the port tunnel? thats dangerous a wast of 760million, shocking. Oh lets not do rock climbing, thats dangerous too. This talk is crap.

This city needs this infastructure. To complete the full ring. The city needs another entrance by motoway from the south and west side. The Westlink cannot cater for all the motorway movements in to one bridge across the liffey. For example the N7 at Inchicore is chronicly congested every single day and the situation worsened under the M50 upgrade works. The N7 of 6lanes go into a urban single lane road. The N11 traffic that enter's the city is in the region 50,000 a day. Traffic needs to circulate onto the complete ring road. Once that's built We can have a complete road network and of course focus and complete the Metro etc. I'm all up for proper public transport. But good road network is also important. Or at least a proper motorway/radial system to circulate traffic.

de breeze

Irish and Proud wrote: »

The DPT is mainly for the purpose of accommodating the said freight traffic and not for creating an underground linear car park. This would be very unsafe in the event of a fire which would spread quickly from vehicle to vehicle.

The tunnel capacity is 100,000 vehicles a day to suggest it should be for exclusive use of 10,000 trucks is absurd.

A Euro directive outlaws queuing in the tunnel and procedures are in place to ensure compliance. Hence the fire scenario portrayed will not arise. In any event fires in tunnels are extremely rare.

whosedaddy?

my problem with those gand plans is that they always have (and probably always will) lack either proper research or communication of the results of that research. Either way people will not understand the rational and you end up with strongly opposed PRO and CON factions.

Dublin has so many transport problems, that its difficult to please everyone at the same time.

There is the congested M50.. where is a proper traffic analysis about the origin and destination of all that traffic. IF a large proportion congesting the M50 is that through traffic from SW to N / N to SW, well then taking those cars off the road with an outer ring road will help Dublin and its indiginous traffic.

Reducing Dublin commuter traffic with

a high quality public transport system in the Greater Dublin Area will result removing cars off the roads and freeing up space for goods and services.

plus

The main reason why I champion Public Transport over road projects, particularly the eastern by-pass, is that commuters, who use cars to travel to and from work, have severely effected my business over the years by clogging the roads of Dublin. It has and continues to cost Dublin Business billions of euros every year.

Well, I'm sorry I affected your business, by going to work...
If you are saying roads should be only used by businesses transporting goods or services and others should use public transport to go to work is a slap in the face for the majority of people trying to earn a living across the city.
Most people would use public transport if the commuting times were comparable, but they aren't.

The problem is that a high quality public transport system is only half the solution. It needs to be efficient and cost effective... As vast parts of Dublin and greater Dublin area a low density developments, you have a job on your hand to deliver all of that... Cost and time will be easily spiralling out of control... the more peoples properties are affected, the more will object and bring the project to a crawl.

Unless there is proper strategy to get Dublin moving again through a combination of public transport, removing traffic bottlenecks and forward looking planning, so everyone can buy into it and support it,people will always look for the quick fix that will solve THEIR problem.

Is the Eastern bypass necessary? If it was there right now, it would probably help. Will it be needed once it's completed in XX years, or could the money it cost invested into more useful projects, I don't know.

But the way things are going on oil prices, we might see a reduction in car use soon enough... and if its only the large number of unnecessary school runs...

Irish and Proud

de breeze wrote: »

Irish and Proud wrote: »

The DPT is mainly for the purpose of accommodating the said freight traffic and not for creating an underground linear car park. This would be very unsafe in the event of a fire which would spread quickly from vehicle to vehicle.

The tunnel capacity is 100,000 vehicles a day to suggest it should be for exclusive use of 10,000 trucks is absurd.

100,000 PCUs/day - Eh??? What???

The DPT has 2 lanes in each direction - the same as the original M50 layout which had up to 100,000 PCUs/day. A D2M road has a design capacity of 55,000 PCUs, and that's without terminating same on city streets.

de breeze wrote: »

A Euro directive outlaws queuing in the tunnel and procedures are in place to ensure compliance. Hence the fire scenario portrayed will not arise. In any event fires in tunnels are extremely rare.

Are you so sure mate?

Well, there were at least 2 major tunnel fires in the Alps since 2000 - one of which was in the Mt. Blanc Tunnel. In case you say that there were no tunnel fires in countries like Britain, the tunnels there are quite short by comparison to the DPT (with the exeption of those under the Mersey). This would be a major factor in reducing fire risk. Speaking of length, I don't think the Eastern By-pass Tunnel will be exactly short either - In fact, I think it might be even longer than the DPT if it has to go under Booterstown etc.

In any case, how do you propose to ensure compliance with European tunnel safety standards, if the cars are subject to tolls on a normal basis like the Westlink, and how do you propose to filter an extra 55k PCUs through city streets - Oh Yeah, the Eastern Bypass??? - with just 4 lanes I suppose like the DPT - of course, the lanes would have to be consistant through the DPT and Eastern By-pass - otherwise, the Eastern By-pass would certainly back up. So basically, you are going to tell me that a 4 lane motorway is going to serve the city's needs???

Well, good luck mate!

Irish and Proud

mysterious wrote: »

Oh and don't build high rise in Dublin they might fall over and kill people.

This talk is FARCE! Tunnells are built all over the world for christ sake. They are built to the highest possible safety measures. Irish and proud you actually sound redicoulous. You No what why build the port tunnel? thats dangerous a wast of 760million, shocking. Oh lets not do rock climbing, thats dangerous too. This talk is crap.

The Port Tunnel is mainly for freight traffic - that is exactly what it was built for, and it is doing (well for the most part) exactly what is was built for: to allow freight traffic to access Dublin Port efficiently while freeing up the city's streets for public transport. Please read up the history relating to the tunnel for God's sake - after all, I followed this project with great interest from the very beginning. It was never planned to be a conventional motorway.

BTW, I'm all for some high rise - I'd like to see a few proper sky-scrapers in the city. The U2 tower proposal looks aesthetically poor and underpowered, why not build one or two sky-scrapers around 50 to 80 stories tall in the docklands - I saw a photo of an 80 floor sky-scraper model which was mistakenly identified as the U2 tower, but was actually a proposal for Dubai. I wish it was the U2 tower - it's a far nicer building which would make a far more powerful statement for Dublin IMO.

mysterious wrote: »

This city needs this infastructure. To complete the full ring. The city needs another entrance by motoway from the south and west side. The Westlink cannot cater for all the motorway movements in to one bridge across the liffey. For example the N7 at Inchicore is chronicly congested every single day and the situation worsened under the M50 upgrade works. The N7 of 6lanes go into a urban single lane road. The N11 traffic that enter's the city is in the region 50,000 a day. Traffic needs to circulate onto the complete ring road. Once that's built We can have a complete road network and of course focus and complete the Metro etc. I'm all up for proper public transport. But good road network is also important. Or at least a proper motorway/radial system to circulate traffic.

IMO, the Eastern By-pass will only be viable if it's integrated as part of a future sea defence project across Dublin Bay in light of rising sea levels (if rising sea levels turn out to be true). The DOOR would be a much more viable project. Also, why not complete that outer ring (R136) across the Liffey Valley in conjunction with the Metro West project.

Now, what the city needs ASAP is that rail interconnector. As an everyday rail commuter, the need for it is so obvious - it would multiply city centre passenger throughput four fold. Also, I was against the Metro North when I thought the cost would be €5bn. However at €3.2bn, it might be a very good idea, especially with a design life of 120 years. That's not the mention the LUAS - it's excellent any time I've used it!

Regards!

Carawaystick

firstly the Mont Blanc Tunnel fire was in March 99. All motorway tunnels in Europe have been upgraded since then to new rules that came into force since then.

Driving around europe you'll see traffic lights before tunnels on motorways, even short ones of about 150m in Spain.
Traffic is stopped from entering the m50 tunnel when it cannot exit freely.

the m50 tunnel has no hard shoulders, compared to the original section, I don't see how capacity could be comparable. the toll plaza is much smaller at east wall

Again I ask where the source of traffic coming towards Dublin at Goatstown that requires an eastern bypass is?
At the minute the M11 traffic using the M50 to bypass Dublin is the only candidate. are people expecting a several billion road project to allow cars in dublin city get to the airport quicker than by using the upgraded M50? or for motorists in Stilorgan to get to the city centre easier than by using the N11 QBC or the Luas? The arguments for the eastern bypass seem to be along these lines. btw the N11 qbc has a higher capacity than the green luas line.

east of stillorgan, there is the DART line and the Rock road qbc

There are no major routes approaching Dublin from the East that don't require the assistance of a captain( plane or ship) that's why Dublin doesn't need an eastern bypass.

mysterious

Carawaystick wrote: »

Again I ask where the source of traffic coming towards Dublin at Goatstown that requires an eastern bypass is?
At the minute the M11 traffic using the M50 to bypass Dublin is the only candidate. are people expecting a several billion road project to allow cars in dublin city get to the airport quicker than by using the upgraded M50? or for motorists in Stilorgan to get to the city centre easier than by using the N11 QBC or the Luas? The arguments for the eastern bypass seem to be along these lines. btw the N11 qbc has a higher capacity than the green luas line.

east of stillorgan, there is the DART line and the Rock road qbc

There are no major routes approaching Dublin from the East that don't require the assistance of a captain( plane or ship) that's why Dublin doesn't need an eastern bypass.

What a load of waffle.. I've stressed the points to you, as so did others. You don't need get the figures from others on the goatstown entrance, work it out yourself. Start by getting a map, look at traffic counters, look at the major roads, look at how much traffic that want to get from N1 to N11. Look at the traffic that wants to get from N7 to Dunlaoirghe. What about the H.G.V from the south like the N7, N81 and N11. they still use the south circular and ringsend roads to get to Dublin Port. They are so many many reasons in front of you that you seem to miss.


You obviously don't understand the road network of this city. The M50 cannot cope with the level of traffic that uses it. Its peaks 110,000 before the upgrade. That already reaches a 6 lane requirement. It's already expected to reach 200,000 Once the the M50 is finally upgraded and free again. All the thousands of commuters that have been using rat runs to avoid the M50 jam will now go back onto the M50. All north south, east west traffic + long distance + local traffic use this motorway if not most of Dublins commuters use the M50 already. A city cannot run on only one proper motorway. If the M50 breaks down the city becomes a standstill, which is why I state with the help of an eastern segment, it will then give a complete ring and greatly loosen the despendance on the westlink etc.

The M50 Needs to be complete with the Tunnel at the southern end so it's a complete ring to have a circular ring around Dublin so traffic can either circle around the city or avoid the city and have another viable river liffey crossing from another point. It makes alot of sense, considering the Port tunnel is mostly emply and only used for trucks. Most cities have many motorways radiating and circulating around the city to move populations from one point of the city to the next.


BTW they were YOUR arguments. You don't seem to want to understand the basic's of a basic motorway network around a city. As I've said not all traffic from the west want to go North over the congested Westlink and onto the M1 some want to Go to Dunlaoirghe or the south side of the city. This eastern bypass will great benifet the lives of south and west Dublin.
Most noticeably Walkinstown, Dundrum, Stillorgan, Ichircore, Goatstown, Sandymount and so on.

At the minute the M11 traffic using the M50 bypass Dublin is the only candidate

what about the N1/N2?? Have you seen the traffic that use the N1 into the city and onto the south? Even despite the Port tunnel? The Eastern bypass will ultimately have a postive impact on this part of this city and the N1 Itself. N1 is very heavy route. What about Long distance traffic from the West (such N7 for e.g) that want to go south inner city that currently fly in the redcow and proceed to the likes of the south and east of the city??? An Eastern bypass will greatly benifet that part of the city and areas like Inchicore where thousands of vehicles everyday snale through it to proceed east and south as I've just said above.
What about the relief the eastern alternative will do to the M50 especially at the westlink. It would give the westlink another lung to breath. Just because you can't see these, doesn't mean they are not candidates for an eastern bypass

The NRA have done a feasibitly study and they say its a viable plan. Many people In Sandymount and that area thinks it's viable. the Traffic gridlock and H.G.Vs around Ringsend reminds them of that too. People like myself who are a fan of proper public transport, even thinks it's viable and necessary for an Eastern Bypass.

It's necessary for every city to have a proper road systems and a proper public transport system. It was proposed many years ago. I myself have always thought that there should be a tunnel from the West (N4-N7) to go under the city and onto the N1 or N11 and feed onto suburban routes. This should give great relief for the likes of inchicore and the quays in Dublin. It would then mean the city centre can be pedstrianised and commuters can still get to where they want to go at the same time. Most capital cities of over a million have at least a ring road and a few motorways to connect all the other highways in and out of the city. But anyway getting off the point. The Eastern bypass is what's proposed so the southern entrance is fine, and that will connect with the Portunnel and this will allow a full radial system!

de breeze

N11 volumes for last year were up to 70,000 vpd at Fassaroe. See link below for details. I need to check the figure at Stillorgan, I imagine it's higher.

http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N11-26.htm