UFC 84 "Ill Will" Discussion Thread,

Fozzy

Dragan wrote: »

You fight to win, not entertain people in the internet.

That's not completely true. The fight of the night, KO and sub bonuses should tell you that to a degree. It's about entertaining the viewers. It's why a guy like Clay Guida has a guaranteed job no matter how many times he loses as long as he keeps fighting like he does (obviously there'd be some limit where the fans would get bored with seeing him lose all the time, but as long as he wins a few he'll be around)

Starnes and Lutter weren't dropped from the UFC because they lost, they were dropped because they didn't entertain people


There was a bit of a scene at the post-event press conference: http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/news;_ylt=AoykxAMMZIy4TByI27PKJwU9Eo14?slug=dm-tito052508&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

On the pay-per-view telecast, Ortiz lost a unanimous decision to undefeated Lyoto Machida with White keeping himself out of the spotlight. White was not even ringside during the fight, watching it from an office in the arena.

But a few hours later, things were quite different, as Ortiz crashed the postfight press conference.

The 33-year-old former UFC light heavyweight champion showed up, uninvited, with UFC official Jennifer Wenk asking him to leave and not cause a scene. Ortiz at first refused, but after some pleading, got up and seemed to act like he’d made his point in front of the media about not being allowed in. But when girlfriend Jenna Jameson told him to stay put, he changed his mind and went back to his seat.

Wenk, after seeing the media wanted to talk with him, agreed to give Ortiz 10 minutes before the official conference started. That lasted about two questions before Zuffa COO Kirk Hendrick stopped the questioning. But after much discussion and a tense scene with the media that wanted to talk with him and the appearance of four Las Vegas Metropolitan police officers, they agreed to let him participate.

Both Wenk and White said that Ortiz was never banned from the conference, but that he should have waited for everyone else as the fighters and White came in as a group.

“We both need some serious counseling,” said White after being asked about the tumultuous relationship between the two and about the possibility they could reach a new contract. “I don’t know if we can make a deal. We need to talk it out some place and talk with each other like grown-ups. It’s hard for both of us.”

Neither was strong about saying Ortiz would never fight in UFC again, even after posting an 0-2-1 record in his last three PPV fights. Ortiz came across as the biggest star of the show to the sellout crowd of 14,773, with a gate of $3.7 million.

Aside from a few snide jabs between the two during the remainder of the press conference, there was only one real flurry. Ortiz said he didn’t know what terms could bring him back, that he’d need to talk with his attorney, that he only wanted to be taken care of financially.

“I don’t want to be 45 years old and still fighting in the UFC,” said Ortiz after a loss by straight 30-27 scores. “The fighters are treated like slaves,” he said.

White took umbrage at the slave remark, saying that the fighters on the podium were happy to be there. He then said they are guys who want to fight three or four times a year, a knock on Ortiz, who hadn’t fought since July and missed a proposed fight late in the year to appear on NBC’s “The Apprentice.”

“You want to be a superstar,” White said. “They want to be fighters.”

Ortiz shot back, “You want to be a superstar,” since White is a featured star on the UFC reality show and is the public face of the company.

If Tito had won I don't think he'd have been as low-key after his fight

Dragan

If you want a victory in anything you need to take it. You don't show up on the day and play/fight whatever and expect to win simply because you want it, or you play a pretty game or fight a pretty fight. You walk up to the other guy/team and you take what they have…..their best plays, their best shots, their best game and you break it down, you break them down and you leave the victor.

If I stand there with a plan to win and I follow that and the other man was not good enough to deny me doing this then that’s his issue.

Machaida is the same, he walks in, fights his fight and it is up to his opponent to do what needs doing to win.

This is an immense advantage, especially in the UFC where fighters have foolishly started to pander to the crowd while in the Cage. I can understand talking up a fight, and being marketable and all that jazz….i cannot understand why you would alter your game just to make someone cheer.

At the end of the day, noone has found an answer for Machaida yet and it's about that simple. He very clever creates within himself a problem that other fighters have been unable to solve. He's not handing you anything….and your gonna have to take it from him.

Fozzy

Dragan wrote: »

i cannot understand why you would alter your game just to make someone cheer.

Frank Shamrock does just that and he is making more money and getting more people watching than anyone outside of the UFC. He's making more money than most UFC fighters too. He would've outclassed Cung Le on the ground yet he never fully committed himself to a takedown. Instead he fought Cung Le's game and had a very entertaining fight

In the end it's all a business, but I don't think it relates to Machida that much because I don't find him boring

Roper

Fozzy wrote: »

Frank Shamrock does just that and he is making more money and getting more people watching than anyone outside of the UFC. He's making more money than most UFC fighters too. He would've outclassed Cung Le on the ground yet he never fully committed himself to a takedown. Instead he fought Cung Le's game and had a very entertaining fight

In the end it's all a business, but I don't think it relates to Machida that much because I don't find him boring

Yeah I'm thinking it wasn't Shamrock's plan to get kicked in the head repeatedly. I think he planned to win on his cardio so I reckon he wanted to puff out Cung Le for a round or two and then capitalise later on. It didn't happen of course because I also think he seriously underestimated Le.

If UFC were only concerned about entertainment, they'd have shipped Hughes and Silvia by now, but they haven't. As long as you keep winning, even dull wins, they can't take that away from you. Tito on top form was dull as dish water, he's only become entertaining in the last 2 years.

Obvioulsy the exception to this is Matt Lindland, who kicked most people's ass but was dull to watch. I think he was too strong a character for the promotion which ultimately decided his fate.

Dragan

Fozzy wrote: »

Frank Shamrock does just that and he is making more money and getting more people watching than anyone outside of the UFC. He's making more money than most UFC fighters too. He would've outclassed Cung Le on the ground yet he never fully committed himself to a takedown. Instead he fought Cung Le's game and had a very entertaining fight

In the end it's all a business, but I don't think it relates to Machida that much because I don't find him boring

And this makes Frank an entertainer, not a fighter.

These days anyway.

He is well aware he will get paid, win or lose. Not all fighters have that comfort zone to operate from.

Nothingcompares

In my opinion, soccer and the UFC are sports entertainment. They're not the Olympics. The fights exist because people want to pay to watch them, either in person or on the television. If they weren't hugely entertaining people wouldn't watch them or spend money on them and therefore invest in them. Now this doesn't mean you need to dress a guy up as a clown, or put a midget against a giant or start talking about feuds. You just need to present a structure of hype and excitement. Anyone watch the Ireland versus Serbia game? Absolutely dire stuff to watch. But the sport has the hype that any tiny thing is lapped up by the fans. I thoroughly enjoyed the Tito/Machida fight and I think that wasn't just due to the technical clash of different styles, strategies and game plans but because Tito was fighting for his UFC future in many ways and MAchida was fighting for his title shot. When you have things like this, the fight doesn't need to be spectacular.

The Olympics are all about the numbers, it's your score that controls how you do in the games, from getting there in the first place to winning it. MMA isn't about 1s and 0s it's about do people care about you and do they want to see you fight. This doesn't mean you need to be a Frank Shamrock but rather somebody who's part of the picture.

Dragan

Dragan wrote: »

And this makes Frank an entertainer, not a fighter.

These days anyway.

He is well aware he will get paid, win or lose. Not all fighters have that comfort zone to operate from.

Gotta agree. Pete Sell is perhaps the best example of this. Brown belt in BJJ with fairly mediocre stand up and yet how many tiomes now have we seen him lose due to trying to make it ean exciting fight instead of playing to his strengths? Im glad he did mind u cos that fight with Scott |Smith was oof the hook!!! :cool::cool:

dunkamania

Pete Sell may have exciting fights, but he doesnt sell his fights. Guys like Mayhem Miller and Frank Trigg fight tough fights, but they put alot of effort into selling them too.

dunkamania

dunkamania wrote: »

Pete Sell may have exciting fights, but he doesnt sell his fights. Guys like Mayhem Miller and Frank Trigg fight tough fights, but they put alot of effort into selling them too.

The debate isnt about who sells or doesnt sell their fights though. Its about fighters who change their styles and dont play to their strengths in order to please the fans. That or "Andy Wang syndrome" whereby u go into a fight, and once the guy punches you, then there is in fact no other way to win other than to knock him out!!

Dragan

http://www.fightmetric.com/fights/Machida-Ortiz.html

Breakdown of the fight people are hinging on.

If Machida "ran away" then it appears Ortiz never even showed up.

bing3

Very entertaining card even though there were no real contests.
Really impressed with Thiago Silva. He always looks calm under pressure Would love to see him fight Forrest or Henderson.
Machida needs to fight a brawler to see if he can take a punch.
Palhares BJJ looked seriously impressive and looks a strong dude too, ditto Carwin. Sweet Punch!
BJ and Wandy both looked in the shape of their lives. Legends!
Not sure about Penn/GSP bout. Would hate either to lose.
But fight of the night Gouveia/ Zelnic was a joke. Both looked technically very poor and reckon they will be cannon fodder in LHW div.

Dragan

bing3 wrote: »

Palhares BJJ looked seriously impressive and looks a strong dude too

Had a chat with a mate of mine who was over in brazil and ended up training at the same time as Palhares. he said he was incredibly strong and ridiculously quick.

that armbar from the back was peachy but my mate wasn't even remotely surprised when he won with it!

Vince135792003

Roper wrote: »

If UFC were only concerned about entertainment, they'd have shipped Hughes and Silvia by now, but they haven't.

Matt Hughes entertains me in and out of the octagon. He has a unique personality and he displayed that on TUF 2.

For me, the entertainment versus "just win" debate isn't a simplistic one. You can cite examples for both and it's a balancing act that UFC manages all the time and isn't a case of either or.

Saw this oon a few forums, pretty good fotoshop of the "Axe Murderer"

Pride Fighter

I'd love to see Wanderlei smash Machida's face in, the winner of that fight should get a title shot.

dunkamania

Dont bet on Machida getting a title shot anytime soon. No matter how many fights he wins, he will never carry a PPV fighting like he did on Saturday. Worse than that is if he got a title shot and was able to sucessfully defend it a few times, it would be the end of the division from a ratings point of view.

Dragan

dunkamania wrote: »

Dont bet on Machida getting a title shot anytime soon. No matter how many fights he wins, he will never carry a PPV fighting like he did on Saturday. Worse than that is if he got a title shot and was able to sucessfully defend it a few times, it would be the end of the division from a ratings point of view.

Macaida will get a title shot when the UFC is confident they have a champ who can beat him........the undeafeated Machaida will make a nice win for someone they are trying to push.

Do it De La Hoya style.....the calm and reserved Machaida against a big trash talker....one builds the fight, the other plays foil.

Kazooie

Machida will be Light heavy weight Champ within the year. Mark my words.

His style can't be beaten, not so far anyway.

Killme00

Kazooie wrote: »

Machida will be Light heavy weight Champ within the year. Mark my words.

His style can't be beaten, not so far anyway.

I disagree

Rampage, Wandy and Chuck all have the tools to beat him

What a horrible fight Machida vs Rashad Evans would be.

Fozzy

I don't doubt that Machida could become champion. But not within a year. Chuck will get a shot at the champ at the end of the year and Wanderlei will get a shot before Machida. I doubt there'll be another defence within a year, and if there is I don't see Machida getting it

Dragan

Fozzy wrote: »

I don't doubt that Machida could become champion. But not within a year. Chuck will get a shot at the champ at the end of the year and Wanderlei will get a shot before Machida. I doubt there'll be another defence within a year, and if there is I don't see Machida getting it

And we still have Page vs Forrest to go. So add on another 4 to 5 months after that before another viable defence, unless Page does to Forrest what he did to Chuck.

"I'm down with that like Chuck in the first!"