Lisbon Treaty Vote!

blue shimmering

The vote is on the 12th June but does anyone really know much about what is in it? I thought a poll just to see what people in the North West think of the Referendum would be a bit of fun and comments on the Lisbon Treaty itself would maybe enlighten all of us and we may learn from each other!:)

muffler

Im not going to vote on the poll just yet as I still want to read a little more before making my mind up what way I will vote on the referendum itself.

Vinegar Hill

I voted no and intend to do so in the referendum. I do not think that the treaty has been explained to the satisfaction of many (myself included). It appears however, we will be governed by the EU as opposed to being a part of it.

danniemcq

arse was meant to vote no, sorry!

but in seriousness i don't believe that it's a good idea but hey when people say no the government will just reword it and we'll vote again and again till they get their yes

blue shimmering

danniemcq wrote: »

arse was meant to vote no, sorry!

but in seriousness i don't believe that it's a good idea but hey when people say no the government will just reword it and we'll vote again and again till they get their yes

Your probably right about that - they did that the last time when it was turned down! They say our tax system and so on will not be affected and that our government would have to agree to letting Europe take over these before we would lose control of them! Our government are like puppets when it comes to Europe and I feel if the pressure was put on them they would definitely hand over power to the EU!

Another thing is that as far as I am aware, though I could be wrong, if this is passed our government will not have to go to the people with a referendum on any other issues or treaties that come up - they will just be able to inact them? So in my opinion - not talking for any particular party or anything like that we would be signing away our right to a say of what and which way the EU goes in the future and give the right to the ruling party to make that decision for us!

I am voting no as of yet unless someone can assure me that this is not the case - if something serious has to be decided about our country I want to have my say! We are after all a very small country in the EU and others are very jealous of how well we are doing and would if given the chance try to take away the competitive advantages that we have - mostly in the corporate taxation area!

Seemingly the treaty will give more rights to workers, which is a good thing and so on... but what good is that if we have no one in the country to work or the companies from abroad that are here decide to leave because their profits are taxed more and it is unattractive for them - they then move to one of the other EU countries that are green eyed at the moment, jealous of us having such a big influx of foreign investment?

I do not think having the EU decide our fate is a good idea when we are such a small fish in such a big bowl! Another thing is that if it is a no vote and there is a revote unless something happens to change my mind I will be voting No again! The last time I voted no both times and think it was illegal to come back twice about the same issue, how would that work with the general election or presidential elections if they didn't like the result to come back and say "we don't like this and you have to vote again"?

Brolly

danniemcq wrote: »

arse was meant to vote no, sorry!

but in seriousness i don't believe that it's a good idea but hey when people say no the government will just reword it and we'll vote again and again till they get their yes

When the Nice Treaty was rejected the 1st time there was a miserable 30 something % turnout. Changes then happened - Ireland was given its declaration that we have military neutrality which was unclear in the Treaty.

The actual changes to the Treaty included that Ireland would need the consent of the Dail on certain matters pertaining to Europe and Ireland was free from joining any EU Defence policy also. Thats why we had a second referendum - the people had issues with parts of the treaty, they made changes and the people voted yes (Over 70% turned out for it I think)

So they didn't just have another referendum for the sake of it. There was much more than just rewording.

I don't think this Treaty will be the same - if it is rejected, then there is no complete consent to go ahead with the Lisbon Treaty provisions.

(The only way we will have to vote again is if they made significant changes to the Treaty - I don't see that happening)

Anyway, I will vote yes!:D

donegalman1

Dannie and Blueshimmering have stated the case for a no vote full stop.

Our politicians care it seems more about how they look to the europeans than to their electorate.

Given most are comfortably well off as well or will be as a result of their career not a lot matters to them as to how it affects us ordinary folk in the future.

Ireland needs to have a bit of back bone when it somes to europe, yes at one time we did well out of it, we gave a lot back to the world in UN peacekeepers and as much as we could to europe, we pioneered and guinea pigged smoking bans etc. You would not find the Danish government riddiculing their electorate like ours do and they have no fear in saying no.

We can talk about how big industry depend on it but they would leave the country in a heartbeat if a better offer came from India or Far East and all we have at the minute is our tax offers.

In my opinion the country has been legislated for beyond belief often because of europe and if there is a downturn in the economy we are finished.
Who'd be able to run a car with the likes of NCTs that never it seemed saved any lives, just penalised older cars and made us spend money to generate business.

I'd imagine, Ireland will at some point be better leaving Europe and aligning more with the U.S., at least the americans like us and don't talk down.

In any case the EU parliment is one level rubbish bureacucy above our HSE

Vinegar Hill

There is an article in the Independant that highlights some of the aspects of this treaty. It is an interesting read and highlights some of the reasons I will vote NO!

http://www.independent.ie/special-features/your-eu/the-lisbon-treaty-for-dummies-1376340.html

blue shimmering

I came across this interesting website and it does definitely help me in making my decision to vote no to the Lisbon Treaty - I think we should keep control of our own decision making and believe that this treaty will take it away from us. The government will be able to blame the EU for every bit of unpopular legislation that will be brought in, I think this could include rates on our homes, domestic water rates and so on... The websites are:

http://www.lisbonno.org/

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vro9fc1NP6c

Do take a look and be informed before going out and using your vote - it will be too late to say later that 'we didn't know what it was about' or 'if we had known we would have voted'!

We fought hard to get a vote so everyone should vote and make their voice heard, it is definitely one of our may public duties! I am also very suspicious when I see the two major parties agreeing, eg FF & FG!

One important thing is - USE YOUR VOTE!;)

Brolly

blue shimmering wrote: »

http://www.lisbonno.org/

I accept that you will vote no and thats fine, but whatever you do, do not believe a thing this fool "Sean citizen" says. He is the biggest joke I have ever come accross in my life. The man makes things up for God's sake (How do I know? - he was my lecturer for criminal law and the man makes up stuff!!!) Please do not base your decision on his website or youtube video!!!

Vote yes or no - I don't care, but be properly informed!!!

(Also, he says he tought EU law for a long time - he has never tought EU law!!!)

blue shimmering

brolly wrote: »

I accept that you will vote no and thats fine, but whatever you do, do not believe a thing this fool "Sean citizen" says. He is the biggest joke I have ever come accross in my life. The man makes things up for God's sake (How do I know? - he was my lecturer for criminal law and the man makes up stuff!!!) Please do not base your decision on his website or youtube video!!!

Vote yes or no - I don't care, but be properly informed!!!

(Also, he says he tought EU law for a long time - he has never tought EU law!!!)

I opened this thread to get an idea of what other peoples feelings, ideas etc are on this - I will not be just looking at 'Sean Citizen', I am reading all the literature and looking up websites etc to try and make sense of the whole thing! I think, reading the Treaty itself is no good unless you have a degree in Law or something - it is very hard to make sense of it at all! My problems is that I will not vote for something that I do not fully understand and am open to changing my mind if there is proper clarification on some elements of the Treaty!

To be honest at the moment I do feel that we are a small fish in a big bowl and that we will be swollowed up by all the bigger fish's! I do all the same take you point and will keep on digging for more information

donegalman1

Got a leaflet in the door from kathy sinnott MEP whos not part of the Big Boys, its a compelling no too.

We often vote in governments cause theres little alternative, in this vote we do have a real very important choice, particularly as it'll affect small nations and our future generations.

blue shimmering

donegalman1 wrote: »

Got a leaflet in the door from kathy sinnott MEP whos not part of the Big Boys, its a compelling no too.

We often vote in governments cause theres little alternative, in this vote we do have a real very important choice, particularly as it'll affect small nations and our future generations.

I got this leaflet too and it is very compelling reading, the histogram illustrations are very striking too! They show how much clout we will have - none in Europe if this referendum goes through!

I know I am negative at the moment but if I can be convinced that a yes is the right choice I will make the change - although my gut feeling is that my vote should be no at the moment!

blue shimmering

There is to be a debate on Monday 9 June on the Lisbon Treaty - For and Against panels will be in attendence, it is on Ocean FM in the morning! I will be listening to see what both sides have to say, it will be very close to the polling days so should be very interesting and hopefully informative!

Don't know if anyone else got the supplement in the Sunday Irish Times Sunday week ago that had to amendment to the treaty in it, it is very heavy reading and also very hard to make sense of!

blue shimmering

The vote has now occurred and is in the process of being counted today, think the turn out was about 40 - 45% which is very disappointing! I do think that their should be an incentive of some type to get us out there and voting - it is our country and we did fight very hard to get a vote so I don't understand why so many decided to leave it to the rest of us to vote for them! The weather was good so that was not an excuse, other countries have a turn out of up to 80% at elections, why is ours so low?

I was talking to some younger people who say they can't be bothered voting, that nothing changes in the country anyway and I pointed out to them that it definitely won't change unless they go out and put their opinion on a ballot paper! They need to join together and force changes because at the end of the day it is the young people who will be living in this country the longest, so they need to make whatever changes they want NOW!

Mint Sauce

voted in south donegal yesterday morning, voted no, dont think it was explained properly, read bits of the handbook, would mostly be concerned by less voting rights, the central parlament/govermant (cant remember the exact term) being able to make key decisions on certain issues, without even the need for a vote for the asembely, the defence issue, would also be one that would concern me, now i understand that it wont (should not) affect our neutrality, but would be concerned, it could be the start of a slope that affects it in the long term

plus the recent revalation that cowen didn't even read it properly him self :eek:,i'm glad i voted no

danniemcq

highland radio wrote:

Lisbon Treaty looks set to be rejected in Donegal Jun 13, 12:05 pm
Early tallies in the Lisbon Referendum count from constituencies around the country are showing a very strong showing by the No vote.

That's a pattern being reflected here in Donegal.

All the votes have now been sorted in Letterkenny and the tally figures show that the no vote has a majority of 65% to 35%.

Meanwhile Donegal South West is showing 60% to 40% in favour of the yes vote.

that was posted 10 mins ago

irish-stew wrote: »

plus the recent revalation that cowen didn't even read it properly him self :eek:,i'm glad i voted no

link?

muffler

danniemcq wrote: »

link?

Dont know if a link can be got or not but yes I heard or seen that on the news a week or two ago.

Mint Sauce

irish-stew wrote: »

plus the recent revalation that cowen didn't even read it properly him self :eek:,i'm glad i voted no

danniemcq wrote: »

link?

heard it on national radio earlier

muffler wrote: »

Dont know if a link can be got or not but yes I heard or seen that on the news a week or two ago.

had a quick browse through the lisbon coverage on the RTE website earlier, couldn't see it my self, but its an interesting revelation if true, so will be trying to find more info on it, or to see if there is a link out there

muffler

Its quoted in the Irish Eagle

blue shimmering

muffler wrote: »

Its quoted in the Irish Eagle

Yes I heard Brian Cowen saying that he hadn't read the Lisbon Treaty, how on earth would he expect us to believe yes was the best option for us when he didn't go through it himself to make sure it was the best deal that could be got? He would have had the excuse later on when we found out that we had signed up to something we didn't intend to, to say 'I didn't read it and hadn't realised this/that would happen'!

He was wrong I think, he should have read it through or at least got others to do it for him and give him a summary of what it was about - anyway I do think it was too complicated for any ordinary Irish citizen to read and come to a conclusion on! As they say; "if in doubt throw it out"! I think this is what most people did and also there was a large chunk of people who felt that they were angry with the government about all the deceptions, food prices, fuel prices and so on..... they decided to let the government know what they thought of them! Brian Cowen coming across as a bully didn't help either when he barked at the other parties who were on the yes side saying they were not doing enough and so on. Also Bertie and his money that seems to come out of the woodwork every week, now he has had a great run on the horses, its just like a circus!

donegalman1

Before every election/vote, politicians spin us a load of rubbish and lies, this time we just didn't buy it. A great day for democracy particularly given the threats and bullying that went on.

And now they say they'd proceed without us, so much for any democracy in Europe. If this is the case I doubt any guarantees or vetos we 'would' have had would mean anything as what we think obviously doesn't matter and we should be greatful and do as we are told.

jimmycrackcorm

blue shimmering wrote: »

Yes I heard Brian Cowen saying that he hadn't read the Lisbon Treaty, how on earth would he expect us to believe yes was the best option for us when he didn't go through it himself to make sure it was the best deal that could be got?

I'll bet you drive but you've never read any of the traffic acts signed into law.

potholes

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

I'll bet you drive but you've never read any of the traffic acts signed into law.

heh..what an arguement, jimmycrackcorm!! :rolleyes:

blue shimmering makes a perfectly valid point.

You are just being antagonistic, as usual..

muffler

potholes wrote: »

You are just being antagonistic, as usual..

Careful now. Attack the post and not the poster if you wish.

You're new here so we will leave it at that but please read the charter.

potholes

muffler wrote:

Careful now. Attack the post and not the poster if you wish.

i thought my comment was an attack on the post, but perhaps i could have phrased it better..maybe like.

jimmycrackcorm, your comment in response to blue shimmering was - i believe - only to antagonise.

the treaty is of national importance which our leaders support, yet have not taken the time to read it.

jimmycrackcorm

Don't confuse sarcasm with antoganism. First of all, why would Cowen read the whole 270 page treaty when he has so many civil servants to delegate the task of evaluation to.

I was reading the Irish independent where a prominent byline was someone stating that they voted No once they heard that Brian Cowen had not read the treaty text. And I started to wonder...

How long does it take to read 270 pages?
Is the Lisbon treaty more important to read than any other law act, or tribunal report?
Should we expect the Taoiseach to spend all his time reading everything?
Are people so stupid to make a decision based on whether somebody read something instead of weighing up the arguments themselves?
And How many people have actually read the road traffic acts and drive but expect the minister for justice to know it off by heart?

Anyway I think a yes or a no vote makes no difference to Donegal given that there has been a neglible positive effect from anything in the EC apart from some people haveing kitchens with better quality Tiling courtesy of our Polish immigrants.

blue shimmering

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I'll bet you drive but you've never read any of the traffic acts signed into law.

No I haven't actually but do believe that I have elected politicians in to do the job for me! Also as a tax payer I employ the civil servants to give them the once over before they are signed - as a last resort I also have the added bonus of having our president Mary McAleese to keep a beady eye up there for me!

Anyway what have our Road Traffic Acts got to do with the Lisbon Treaty, or is someone going to suggest that everything will have to change and that we will have to drive on the righthand side of the road...actually I think one politician did suggest that! For the winter months we drive on the lefthand side and in the summer when tourists are here to drive on the righthand side - how confusing is that?

Anyway no offence taken 'Jimmycrackcorm' & thanks for backing me up 'Potholes', we all have the right to our opinions and for the record what Brian Cowen said about not reading the Treaty didn't influence me with regard to my vote, I had already come to the conclusion to vote no from what I read about it - I didn't read all 260 pages mind you!

donegalman1

The Yes side now quite fairly argue that why should Brian Cowen read something he had a part in drafting over seven years.

That being said, Brian Cowens part in securing a no vote was not on that revelation but the fact that he talked down to the electorate, dictated and riddiculed the prople of Ireland who are obviously smarter than he thought and saw that.

They can call half the electorate loo laas etc, but I'll be glad if our politicians who were motivated about looking good in Europe now feel really really stupid going to the EU meetings and accept that neither they nor the Europeans can dictate to us.

muffler

Cowan failed miserably with the revelation that he didnt read the wording of the treaty. Its not the fact that he didnt read it but its the fact that he is not a good politician. Had it been someone else in that situation they would have said they read it 10 times over and nobody would have been any the wiser.

Im really curious now as to what will happen next.

jimmycrackcorm

There's plenty of debate on the treaty on Boards without turning this thread into another political argument. At least we can all emigrate again.