Consequences of leaving the catholic church

axer

Hi,

I am agnostic but baptised and confirmed catholic. I without a doubt don't believe in the teachings of the Catholic church.

I want to officially leave the church. I have found out how to do it but I am not sure about the consequences as to whether I should do it.

The reasons I want to leave the church are:
1. I want the records to show that I am not a Catholic i.e. if and when future generations check the records.
2. I find it hypocrytical for me to give out about/strongly disagree with the church and its teachings without making an attempt to distance myself/formally remove myself from the church.
3. When people ask me my religion I say I am agnostic but some persist and ask me what I was baptised into and then presume I am actually catholic (but am not a practising catholic like many in Ireland). I want to be able to tell them I have officially defected from the church and have proof of it in writing.
4. I do not want a christian funeral/wedding etc.

Some of my concerns are:
1. What happens for funerals/burials as a result i.e. can I still be buried?
- What happens if I die young and say my parents decide to bury me in a family plot or something - could that be refused? Would I have to be buried in a certain section of a graveyard etc?
2. If others get married/die/baptised/christened etc - can I still attend e.g. my sister had a child recently and thus had a christening. I had no intention of being a god parent or anything but am I still allowed in the church? same goes for weddings etc?
3. Would my local parish priest hold it against me in some way? i.e. will he make contact with me to try and convince me to come back or something?

Thanks.

seamus

axer wrote: »

1. What happens for funerals/burials as a result i.e. can I still be buried?
- What happens if I die young and say my parents decide to bury me in a family plot or something - could that be refused? Would I have to be buried in a certain section of a graveyard etc?

Yep, you can still be buried. I think someone else asked something similar recently, but there are very few church-owned graveyards. In any case, I understand that once you own the plot, you can bury whoever you like in it.

2. If others get married/die/baptised/christened etc - can I still attend e.g. my sister had a child recently and thus had a christening. I had no intention of being a god parent or anything but am I still allowed in the church? same goes for weddings etc?

Absolutely . You won't burst into flames or anything. You know yourself that there's no I.D. checks or random baptisings going on in the church. Most religions tend to allow anyone into their church (unless you're female of course :rolleyes:)

3. Would my local parish priest hold it against me in some way? i.e. will he make contact with me to try and convince me to come back or something?

Perhaps, but this would vary from priest to priest. They can "hold it against you", but in modern Ireland this means very little anymore, just another person who's not that fond of you.

Malari

Hi Axer, I read your post and found yourself agreeing with almost everything you said! I would call myself atheist however. I suppose my main reason was when people would say "ah you're baptised, therefore you're catholic" I wanted to say, "well actually, no!"

I recently went through the steps you describe for much the same reasons. i don't know if you personally know your local parish priest, or if you live in a small community but I can't think that it would be taken personally at all!

In fact one of the priests who contacted me when I wrote to the church requesting to officially leave, was extremely friendly, never asked me why, and helped me in any way he could.

My advice is don't worry, write to the church where you were baptised and politely request that they amend your record.

Dades

FYI - more reading from older threads...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055184468
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055063723
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054890629

Malari wrote: »

I would call myself atheist however. I suppose my main reason was when people would say "ah you're baptised, therefore you're catholic"...

Why would anyone ever say "ah you're baptised"? Do you still wear your gown or something?

Peoples perception of you as a catholic won't change because you've been struck off some list somewhere. As a 'minority' you'll still have to declare your godlessness in conversation, which makes the exercise kinda pointless afaic.

Malari

Dades wrote: »

Why would anyone ever say "ah you're baptised"? Do you still wear your gown or something?

Peoples perception of you as a catholic won't change because you've been struck off some list somewhere. As a 'minority' you'll still have to declare your godlessness in conversation, which makes the exercise kinda pointless afaic.

Well people have said that to me following a conversation about religion (eg, at weddings this tends to come up after the "when are you getting married" topic is exhausted). And if the person doesn't agree with your explanation and choices it seems to satisfy them in some way, like a tv lawyer, to conclude with "ah you're baptised therefore a catholic, I rest my case!"

It wasn't my only reason for wanting to do this.

humanji

That happened to me, so I placed my hand on the guys head and said "I now baptism you into the church of Satan! There, you're a devil worshipper now, even though you didn't want to be." They shut up after that.

Zillah

humanji wrote: »

That happened to me, so I placed my hand on the guys head and said "I now baptism you into the church of Satan! There, you're a devil worshipper now, even though you didn't want to be." They shut up after that.

Awesome.

orestes

I didn't know you could officially defect from the church, how do you go about doing it?

Dades

orestes wrote: »

I didn't know you could officially defect from the church, how do you go about doing it?

I refer to the other threads in my post above....

lorrsi666

axer wrote: »

Hi,

I am agnostic but baptised and confirmed catholic. I without a doubt don't believe in the teachings of the Catholic church.

I want to officially leave the church. I have found out how to do it but I am not sure about the consequences as to whether I should do it.

The reasons I want to leave the church are:
1. I want the records to show that I am not a Catholic i.e. if and when future generations check the records.
2. I find it hypocrytical for me to give out about/strongly disagree with the church and its teachings without making an attempt to distance myself/formally remove myself from the church.
3. When people ask me my religion I say I am agnostic but some persist and ask me what I was baptised into and then presume I am actually catholic (but am not a practising catholic like many in Ireland). I want to be able to tell them I have officially defected from the church and have proof of it in writing.
4. I do not want a christian funeral/wedding etc.

Some of my concerns are:
1. What happens for funerals/burials as a result i.e. can I still be buried?
- What happens if I die young and say my parents decide to bury me in a family plot or something - could that be refused? Would I have to be buried in a certain section of a graveyard etc?
2. If others get married/die/baptised/christened etc - can I still attend e.g. my sister had a child recently and thus had a christening. I had no intention of being a god parent or anything but am I still allowed in the church? same goes for weddings etc?
3. Would my local parish priest hold it against me in some way? i.e. will he make contact with me to try and convince me to come back or something?

Thanks.

Hi, I'm exactly like you, i do not believe in the way the church teaches people. I study the bible myself. but the questionis how to i de register from the church?
I've searched in internet and cannot find how to.
Ive asked my family and they refuse the idea saying its a sin....

Dave!

Here's how to leave the church:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055184468

gramlab

orestes wrote: »

I didn't know you could officially defect from the church, how do you go about doing it?

Do you get to stay in a safe house for a while and get debreifed..............now that would be a reason for leaving;)

Zillah

They put a big ass stamp across your baptism cert that says DEFECTED.

lorrsi666

Well i contacted the church i was baptised in and the priest said once your baptised you cant change, so i hung up and rang another church told the priest what i wanted to do, he was more than happy to give me the info, he used the word abjuring my faith. But then went on to say that it will effect my children, that they may not get into certain schools.... NOW to me that infringes human rights, The priest went on and agreed off record with some of my points, and asked me to attend a meeting he has hoping to see if this would change my mind.

I Also found out that even when you are crossed off, they still CLAIM you to be catholic, but refuse to acknowledge you at funerals etc ( not that you want to be acknowledged).

Its a funny world here in Ireland that the church still thinks that it can scare people with children to stay in the church, its only about numbers to them.
More people here should open their eyes and stop going by what we were thought as kids, for example if you dont baptize your child it wont go to heavan. etc
its just a scam, its even more so like a cult!!!!! just the same as any other, once your in the make it hard for you to leave.

Mena

Every day I thank my parents for having the foresight not to baptize me into any religion. It's just the principle of the thing.

timetogetfit

Some of my concerns are:
1. What happens for funerals/burials as a result i.e. can I still be buried?
- What happens if I die young and say my parents decide to bury me in a family plot or something - could that be refused? Would I have to be buried in a certain section of a graveyard etc?
2. If others get married/die/baptised/christened etc - can I still attend e.g. my sister had a child recently and thus had a christening. I had no intention of being a god parent or anything but am I still allowed in the church? same goes for weddings etc?
3. Would my local parish priest hold it against me in some way? i.e. will he make contact with me to try and convince me to come back or something

Given your beliefs why would you have concerns about what happens to your body after your die

axer

timetogetfit wrote: »

Given your beliefs why would you have concerns about what happens to your body after your die

I believe that there is no way of knowing if there is a higher power/god or not (i'm agnostic not atheist) and I don't think those beliefs go against any concerns I might have since I neither dispell the notion that there is a higher power/god nor an afterlife etc.. There might be but I am not going to follow some man made religion as if it were the word of some higher being and not not just something someone made up that is why I definitely would not want a Catholic funeral.

Sangre

Mena wrote: »

Every day I thank my parents for having the foresight not to baptize me into any religion. It's just the principle of the thing.

You must have a very stress free life.

Michael G

lorrsi666 wrote: »

Well i contacted the church i was baptised in and the priest said once your baptised you cant change, so i hung up and rang another church told the priest what i wanted to do, he was more than happy to give me the info, he used the word abjuring my faith.

The first one was right. The second one must have been one of the Fr Trendy type. Baptism isn't like joining a club or a political party. It is (in our view of course) an intrinsic and permanent change that no human can reverse. You could of course "abjure" it, but we can burn you for that. And you would still be baptised even as a cinder.

lorrsi666 wrote: »

But then went on to say that it will effect my children, that they may not get into certain schools.... NOW to me that infringes human rights.

Your human rights? What rights, and how does this affect them?

axer

Michael G wrote: »

The first one was right. The second one must have been one of the Fr Trendy type. Baptism isn't like joining a club or a political party. It is (in our view of course) an intrinsic and permanent change that no human can reverse. You could of course "abjure" it, but we can burn you for that. And you would still be baptised even as a cinder.

Highlighted in important part.

Michael G wrote: »

Your human rights? What rights, and how does this affect them?

I think he meant the right to primary education for his children which is a right conferred by the constitution of Ireland.

Tim Robbins

axer wrote: »

Hi,

I am agnostic but baptised and confirmed catholic. I without a doubt don't believe in the teachings of the Catholic church.

I want to officially leave the church. I have found out how to do it but I am not sure about the consequences as to whether I should do it.

The reasons I want to leave the church are:
1. I want the records to show that I am not a Catholic i.e. if and when future generations check the records.
2. I find it hypocrytical for me to give out about/strongly disagree with the church and its teachings without making an attempt to distance myself/formally remove myself from the church.
3. When people ask me my religion I say I am agnostic but some persist and ask me what I was baptised into and then presume I am actually catholic (but am not a practising catholic like many in Ireland). I want to be able to tell them I have officially defected from the church and have proof of it in writing.
4. I do not want a christian funeral/wedding etc.

Some of my concerns are:
1. What happens for funerals/burials as a result i.e. can I still be buried?
- What happens if I die young and say my parents decide to bury me in a family plot or something - could that be refused? Would I have to be buried in a certain section of a graveyard etc?
2. If others get married/die/baptised/christened etc - can I still attend e.g. my sister had a child recently and thus had a christening. I had no intention of being a god parent or anything but am I still allowed in the church? same goes for weddings etc?
3. Would my local parish priest hold it against me in some way? i.e. will he make contact with me to try and convince me to come back or something?

Thanks.

Why not join the Irish Humanist society?
That way you can express your philosophical views and keep the Baptism cert as a nostaligic record of old days. Think about you live to 96, religion is gone, and you have a record of it to show your great-grandchildren or sell at an auction!

axer

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Why not join the Irish Humanist society?
That way you can express your philosophical views and keep the Baptism cert as a nostaligic record of old days. Think about you live to 96, religion is gone, and you have a record of it to show your great-grandchildren or sell at an auction!

I don't have a need to express my philosophical views I just want to have the records show that I am not a catholic. You could talk about the lack of evidence that there is/isn't a god all day long but you will still arrive at the same conclusion i.e. we don't know, so whats the point.

Im sure I still have a baptismal cert anyway plus I doubt Catholicism is going to die in the next 70 years or so.

I have my letter all ready to go and am planning on posting it this week. Would it be better to send it to the bishop of diocese I got baptised in or to the head priest in the parish?

Sangre

The only record of your religion that actually matters is the census.

axer

Sangre wrote: »

The only record of your religion that actually matters is the census.

I don't agree because most people who do genealogical searches for instance often use parish records.

lostexpectation

but the census doesn't record your religion individually does it?

i guess the cso can look at individual records but can gov workers?

Dades

lostexpectation wrote: »

but the census doesn't record your religion individually does it?

Sure does - if it's not listed amongst the options you can write it in the "other" box.

lostexpectation wrote: »

i guess the cso can look at individual records but can gov workers?

What do government workers work off if not the census?

lostexpectation

well the first response is the census that we see doesn't record it individual, and secondly i was doubting the revenue plug into how good your irish is and all the questions asked on the census.

Dades

You mean can a government worker access someone's individual replies? I very much doubt it. How would that benefit you anyway?

Dr Galen

well OP, i've been in a similar position. Unfortunately I'm getting married to someone who would like the whole church wedding ceremony thing in October this year. So for now I've not renounced my catholic baptism, eventhough i am most definitely an atheist and have had this view for a long time now.

I was more concerned with the records that mattered to me, i.e hospital records, the census etc than the church ones seeing as it plays no part in my life. I've found though over the past year or so this has niggled away at me, and November this year, I'll be getting out too!

lostexpectation

that's what i was saying

kowloon

I think i'll wait a while and see how the upcoming religion wars turn out.
Last thing I need is to be marched off into an heathen camp.

Would be interested in details though.

Malari

Well, I just received my amended baptism cert today, which states that I "left the catholic church by a formal act of defection" - took 4 months to get it!

So I'll let you know about the consequences if and when they happen

Dades

Congratulations. It obviously means something to you.

Now stay away from holy water!

Malari

Dades wrote: »

Congratulations. It obviously means something to you.

Now stay away from holy water!

It obviously doesn't mean a lot to you But yes, I wanted them to know I wasn't a member of their club any more.

And I'll have no problem staying away from holy water as there is no such thing :eek:

nozzferrahhtoo

Malari wrote: »

It obviously doesn't mean a lot to you But yes, I wanted them to know I wasn't a member of their club any more.

And I'll have no problem staying away from holy water as there is no such thing :eek:

I realise it might be a long story so i hope you typed it already but can you tell me about this process from start to finish? What made you do it, what did you have to do to get it done, what problems did you hit, what addresses did you mail and so on and so on. I might like to emulate you on this one so the more infor the better. If youve already put up the full story somewhere then link me to it please!

Yours expectantly

DinoBot

Malari wrote: »

Well, I just received my amended baptism cert today, which states that I "left the catholic church by a formal act of defection" - took 4 months to get it!

So I'll let you know about the consequences if and when they happen

I think thats a great idea. I think I will be doing this myself :-)

Malari

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I realise it might be a long story so i hope you typed it already but can you tell me about this process from start to finish? What made you do it, what did you have to do to get it done, what problems did you hit, what addresses did you mail and so on and so on. I might like to emulate you on this one so the more infor the better. If youve already put up the full story somewhere then link me to it please!

Yours expectantly

Ah, no, haven't typed it - didn't think there would be that much interest, as most of the replies seemed to be "why bother?"

I think the difficulty was that I was born in Dublin and live in Cork. I contacted my original parish first in writing. I just looked up the address my parents were living when I was born and where the nearest church was!

Got no reply for a month, so found an email and sent a message to the secretary. Also at this time sent a letter to the bishop of Cork :eek: wondering should I be asking him!

A few weeks later got a reply from both parties - each stating I should be contacting the other person! Apparently there is some difference between diocese and arch-diocese and the sharing of information.

Emailed both again, asking them to confer on what the best course of action should be. Eventually got a phone call from a very nice man in the Dublin parish, who said they could not find me on their records! So I went home to my parent's place and dug out a copy of my baptism cert and sent it to him.

A few weeks later my amended cert arrived in the post. Ta daaa! No-one tried to change my mind along the way, or even express regret that I had made this decision...maybe that was to do with the strongly worded nature of the original letter :rolleyes:

nozzferrahhtoo

Malari wrote: »

Ah, no, haven't typed it - didn't think there would be that much interest, as most of the replies seemed to be "why bother?"

Actually I think its a good thing to do if everyone who was an atheist did it. The church has been worried about lack of attendance and its made them sit back and think about what they are and have been doing wrong.

I think if a significant amount of people actively sought to officially leave the church it would wake them up even further to many of their failing. I hope many people do follow your suit.

nozzferrahhtoo

Malari wrote: »

Well, I just received my amended baptism cert today, which states that I "left the catholic church by a formal act of defection" - took 4 months to get it!

So I'll let you know about the consequences if and when they happen

Interesting wording. Did you have to defect to anyone in particular or was it just a general defection

Malari

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Actually I think its a good thing to do if everyone who was an atheist did it. The church has been worried about lack of attendance and its made them sit back and think about what they are and have been doing wrong.

I think if a significant amount of people actively sought to officially leave the church it would wake them up even further to many of their failing. I hope many people do follow your suit.

I agree - it wasn't just a personal thing, I wanted them to know I was leaving. I don't what I'll do with the cert now though!

Malari

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Interesting wording. Did you have to defect to anyone in particular or was it just a general defection

Their wording. It's what was written on the cert when I got it back, along with some Latin and abbreviations I didn't understand, and can't even read properly!

I think the formal act of defection is what they call a request to be officially removed from the church records. As opposed to excommunication, which is when they boot you out!

nozzferrahhtoo

Malari wrote: »

I agree - it wasn't just a personal thing, I wanted them to know I was leaving. I don't what I'll do with the cert now though!

Solid wood frames and hooks for your wall are quite cheap these days

iUseVi

Malari wrote: »

I agree - it wasn't just a personal thing, I wanted them to know I was leaving. I don't what I'll do with the cert now though!

bill_ashmount

Malari wrote: »

Well, I just received my amended baptism cert today, which states that I "left the catholic church by a formal act of defection" - took 4 months to get it!

So I'll let you know about the consequences if and when they happen

Nice one. Must look into this myself.

Malari

Thanks iUseVi, but I think I might just keep it handy in case I get accused of being a catholic again!

:pac:

lostexpectation

hers an example of what ya get when your defect

lostexpectation

Malari wrote: »

Ah, no, haven't typed it - didn't think there would be that much interest, as most of the replies seemed to be "why bother?"

I think the difficulty was that I was born in Dublin and live in Cork. I contacted my original parish first in writing. I just looked up the address my parents were living when I was born and where the nearest church was!

Got no reply for a month, so found an email and sent a message to the secretary. Also at this time sent a letter to the bishop of Cork :eek: wondering should I be asking him!

A few weeks later got a reply from both parties - each stating I should be contacting the other person! Apparently there is some difference between diocese and arch-diocese and the sharing of information.

Emailed both again, asking them to confer on what the best course of action should be. Eventually got a phone call from a very nice man in the Dublin parish, who said they could not find me on their records! So I went home to my parent's place and dug out a copy of my baptism cert and sent it to him.

A few weeks later my amended cert arrived in the post. Ta daaa! No-one tried to change my mind along the way, or even express regret that I had made this decision...maybe that was to do with the strongly worded nature of the original letter :rolleyes:

I wonder how they eventual found you.

Malari

I sent them a copy of my baptism cert. I think they were looking in the wrong church records or something.

PDN

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Actually I think its a good thing to do if everyone who was an atheist did it. The church has been worried about lack of attendance and its made them sit back and think about what they are and have been doing wrong.

I think if a significant amount of people actively sought to officially leave the church it would wake them up even further to many of their failing. I hope many people do follow your suit.

Of course it may have the opposite effect and make them more reactionary and conservative. At present they are aware that a significant portion of supposed Catholics are unhappy with some of the more hardline dogma. However, atheists who have not defected are being included in those figures. If a huge amount of you were to formally defect then they might come to the conclusion that Irish Catholics (real Catholics, not just atheists who happen to still be on the roll) are really more conservative than supposed. That would be an incentive for them to be more hardline in their beliefs and practices - which would probably suit all of us.

death1234567

PDN wrote: »

If a huge amount of you were to formally defect then they might come to the conclusion that Irish Catholics (real Catholics, not just atheists who happen to still be on the roll) are really more conservative than supposed. That would be an incentive for them to be more hardline in their beliefs and practices - which would probably suit all of us.

More Hardline??? Surely not.

I think a more modern,moderate, sensible (if that's possible) catholic church would be better for everyone, both catholics and atheists.

nozzferrahhtoo

PDN wrote: »

That would be an incentive for them to be more hardline in their beliefs and practices - which would probably suit all of us.

This would suit me also if it were to happen but I see no reason to think it would. Many arguments against the churches involvement of society suffer from moderates. People who say "Oh well we dont ALL feel that way, you are arguing against positions we dont espouse". This is like a frustrating wall of foam that you bounce off when working towards certain ends and so discourse is prevented from moving forward.

If the group instead became a smaller more hardline group then they would lose this foam buffer and it would become quite clear just who and what is being argued against.