Conversation with a muslim

Jannah

Conar wrote: »

I find this so strange.
Is sexual attraction the only form of 3rd party admiration that is frowned upon in the Muslim world or does it stretch to other areas?
For example, is it ok to leer over a neighbour's nice car?
I know they probably follow the "Though shalt not covet thy neighbour's...." rules but what is it about sexual attraction that is so much worse than coveting other things?
Surely if God found the sexual attraction area so bad he would have highlighted it more when he gave the 10 commandments? No?

From Wiki the commandments state:
"You shall not covet your neighbour’s house; you shall not covet your neighbour’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour."

I could very well be wrong here as I am not exactly too well versed in the ways of your Lord but surely he would have been more specific in his teachings when he made the commandments if it meant so much to him.
He even mentions the neighbours house before the neighbours wife so it can't have been too high on his agenda.
I know your prophet came after the commandments and made all these extra revelations but surely as God is omniscient he wouldn't need to make future revisions though the mouth of others?

I'm interested in hearing responses to this but if you feel I'm taking the piss or a new thread should/could be started then so be it.

Funny you should mention the 10 Commandments, actually. I find them quite peculiar. They list off all of men's POSESSIONS... their ox, their house, their servant, their ass, their WIFE... so much for gender equality, now they own us? If thats not a man-made rule, I don't know what is. Its also strange how they listed all these sins of which people knew already, yet failed to stick in child abuse, rape, genocide (probably because it is commited through the verse "Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour"- the children of Levi did so and 3,000 men were killed... and thats not all- "now, therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known a man by lying with him. But all the women-children that hath not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves") and SLAVERY (probably because in the following chapter they are instructed on the conditions on buying and selling slaves, boring slaves' ears with an awl and rules on selling their own daughters...)

So, yes, probably best not to look to the bible for moral guidence

the_new_mr wrote: »

It's none of her business but that doesn't mean she can't be pissed off or disgusted by it. I'm fairly pissed off and disgusted by it myself actually. I don't see how there's anything wrong with that. It's an opinion after all.

Yep, but breeding hate and disgust has never solved any problems

Conar

Jannah wrote: »

Funny you should mention the 10 Commandments, actually. I find them quite peculiar. They list off all of men's POSESSIONS... their ox, their house, their servant, their ass, their WIFE... so much for gender equality, now they own us? If thats not a man-made rule, I don't know what is. Its also strange how they listed all these sins of which people knew already, yet failed to stick in child abuse, rape, genocide (probably because it is commited through the verse "Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour"- the children of Levi did so and 3,000 men were killed... and thats not all- "now, therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known a man by lying with him. But all the women-children that hath not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves") and SLAVERY (probably because in the following chapter they are instructed on the conditions on buying and selling slaves, boring slaves' ears with an awl and rules on selling their own daughters...)

So, yes, probably best not to look to the bible for moral guidence

I am confused.
Don't Muslims follow the Old Testament too?
Didn't Mohammed just follow on from the Old Testament or am I way off here?

Jannah

He very well could have done. My point is that following such horrendously outdated rules is ridiculous. While it does list very viable rules such as don't kill, don't steal etc, they never thought of horrible things like slavery or mass killing- in fact, they appear to even ENDORSE it.

Why people choose to take a step backwards from the modern and improved (abeit, not perfect) world we have today absolutely amazes me

Conar

Jannah wrote: »

He very well could have done. My point is that following such horrendously outdated rules is ridiculous. While it does list very viable rules such as don't kill, don't steal etc, they never thought of horrible things like slavery or mass killing- in fact, they appear to even ENDORSE it.

Why people choose to take a step backwards from the modern and improved (abeit, not perfect) world we have today absolutely amazes me

I agree.
I thought you were Muslim though so I assumed you would have followed these rules.
My bad!

Jannah

Conar wrote: »

I agree.
I thought you were Muslim though so I assumed you would have followed these rules.
My bad!

Yeah, sadly one cannot change posts around here *shifty eyes at mods!!* so its kinda confusing!!

I think we should all make up a new religion- its called "Common-sense-based-on-modern-life-ism" - our holy text is the Iri'sh Examin'er and the our leader is Barack Obama (since it seems he's currently out religion hunting too!)

Notoalcohol

Jannah I appreciate your opinion regarding the new religion...You will be the Godess and i'll be the messenger of the brand new religion..our main office will be in Temple Bar.so folks Come along...first come first served basis..Attn:stock limited:(

Jannah

Haha! Methinks I'll make my pillgramage sooner rather than later

Inevitably

randomname wrote: »

Well you were obivously talking to some muppet there?

What do kind of response do you expect from a muppet?

I think randomname said it all

ScumLord

Me: "I'm having a hard time trying to explain the whole Aisha thing... the common argument is that, although she was technically physically a woman, she surely wasn't emotionally able for a relationship at 9 years old- especially with a 53 year old man?!"

The "blessed virgin" Mary would more than likely been between the ages of 12 and 15 years old when God got her up the pole. women seem to have been treated as breeding machines back then. Once they where able to bare children they where married off. 9 seems very young but I suppose a woman was a piece of property so a young girl probably had potential value.

I think we should all make up a new religion- its called "Common-sense-based-on-modern-life-ism" - our holy text is the Iri'sh Examin'er and the our leader is Barack Obama (since it seems he's currently out religion hunting too!)

Why pick a religion? If God created all things and you want to get to know him then just study his work. The sciences are good for getting the basic fundamentals but the religions do have allot of interesting insights. I consider all religions equal and I think it's amazing what these people came up with given the lack of information they had.

The 10 commandments are a fairly good guideline to living a good life.

DinoBot

ScumLord wrote: »

The 10 commandments are a fairly good guideline to living a good life.

really ???!!! Lets see,

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.' -- Okay, not a bad start

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'
-- Cant see the guidance to a good life yet!

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'
--Eh, getting a little vain are we ?

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

Right so almost half way there and its all about him.

FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'
-- At last, something we can use

SIX: 'You shall not murder.'
-- Wow, I must write that one down, must NOT murder :rolleyes::rolleyes:


SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'
--not bad

EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'
-- a little vague there I think.

NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'

--Not really into keeping slaves so I think I wont be following that one.


Did I miss something, is this the fairly good guideline to living a good life of which you speak :D

hivizman

I'm afraid that, whenever I think of the Ten Commandments, I can't help but remember the poem "The Last Decalogue" by Arthur Hugh Clough:

Thou shalt have one God only; who
Would be at the expense of two?
No graven images may be
Worshipped, except the currency:
Swear not at all; for, for thy curse
Thine enemy is none the worse:
At church on Sunday to attend
Will serve to keep the world thy friend:
Honour thy parents; that is, all
From whom advancement may befall:
Thou shalt not kill; but need'st not strive
Officiously to keep alive:
Do not adultery commit;
Advantage rarely comes of it:
Thou shalt not steal; an empty feat,
When it's so lucrative to cheat:
Bear not false witness; let the lie
Have time on its own wings to fly:
Thou shalt not covet, but tradition
Approves all forms of competition.

More seriously, though, there's an equivalent of each one of the Ten Commandments, except the one about keeping the Sabbath holy, in the Qur'an. There are some verses (e.g. Surah Al A'raf 7:163-166) that suggest that keeping the Sabbath was a requirement that God prescribed only for the "Children of Israel".

ScumLord

Well the first two help maintain peace. If we're all believing in the same God then we have nothing to argue about. Unfortunately people seem to have taken that to mean we should go to war with each other. False idols also puts a stop to cults.

Take Sunday off, chill out. That's a great one.


The rest are all good. These commandments pop up to deal with people beginning to live in much larger groups.

DinoBot

ScumLord wrote: »

Take Sunday off, chill out. That's a great one.

Was not the ten commandments given to the Jews, so I think you ment to write take Saturday off

ScumLord wrote: »

The rest are all good. These commandments pop up to deal with people beginning to live in much larger groups.

So, if ALL records and knowledge of the ten commandments were wiped from peoples minds in the morning, do you think we would find it hard to live in large groups ?

Do you really think its because of the six commandment that people don't kill each other ?
Are you comfortable with god condoning slavery in his commandments ?

ScumLord

So, if ALL records and knowledge of the ten commandments were wiped from peoples minds in the morning, do you think we would find it hard to live in large groups ?

I'm not saying the 10 commandments are the end all and be all, but for the time they where fairly progressive and coming from God carried allot of weight back then. They where part of a movement towards people living in large groups. All I'm saying is there are fairly decent set of rules to live your life by. Just because you don't like religion doesn't mean everything religions come up with is invalid.

Servant doesn't automatically mean slave.

DinoBot

ScumLord wrote: »

Servant doesn't automatically mean slave.

................except in reference to the 10 commandments where it DOES mean slave.

Conar

DinoBot wrote: »

................except in reference to the 10 commandments where it DOES mean slave.

Yeah, I think that its the commonly accepted meaning alright!

ScumLord

DinoBot wrote: »

................except in reference to the 10 commandments where it DOES mean slave.

Jaysus your right. Ok so, bar the slave refference it makes sense.

DinoBot

ScumLord wrote: »

Jaysus your right. Ok so, bar the slave refference it makes sense.

"bar the slave reference" .......... that god made and felt so strong about it he wrote it himself in stone !!
I cant think of any other mythology story where a god wrote something himself, so it must be damn important.

How quick you dismiss this great guide on how to live a good life :rolleyes::rolleyes:

ScumLord

DinoBot wrote: »

"bar the slave reference" .......... that god made and felt so strong about it he wrote it himself in stone !!
I cant think of any other mythology story where a god wrote something himself, so it must be damn important.

How quick you dismiss this great guide on how to live a good life :rolleyes::rolleyes:

People wrote the 10 commandments, for men of that time they did quite well I think.

DinoBot

ScumLord wrote: »

People wrote the 10 commandments, for men of that time they did quite well I think.

no

Conar

Interesting story on the Last Word just a moment ago.
Apparently some muslim bloke was accepting some award (not sure for what) and a women was presenting him with the award.
Basically he refused to shake her hand as she was a woman and has caused a bit of a stink.

Not completely on topic but related enough to mention.

ScumLord

DinoBot wrote: »

no

Why whats wrong with them? Bar the slave thing.

DinoBot

ScumLord wrote: »

Why whats wrong with them? Bar the slave thing.

Bar the slave thing and the fact that they were written by man and people pretend its from god ? Or are you okay with that ?

the_new_mr

ScumLord and DinoBot: Some of your posts are quite offensive to people of all religions. You may discuss but you may not ridicule or talk of God in a disrespecting manner.

Jannah wrote:

I think we should all make up a new religion- its called "Common-sense-based-on-modern-life-ism"

A friend of mine said something funny but true to me there recently. Common sense is not so common

Nice poem there hivizman.

Jannah

Common sense is pretty common, really. We know stealing and killing is wrong- even without religion, this would socially be a pretty obvious fact. Why complicate things by adding talk of God into the equation? By adding God people can interpret things to suit their own needs and in the end the world will be corrupted with or without "divine intervention". Its human nature at work and no spiritual force can change that.

the_new_mr

Problems in society are not religion's fault. The world's worst atrocities were done without anything to do with religion. Joseph Stalin is one example. Religion is not the common factor. The only common factor is humans.

Sometimes people are bad and they use religion as an excuse.

It's all very well saying "Let's all just agree on the basics" but I think you'll find that some people will disagree on those basics. No killing you say, that's fairly obvious. But what about when some people say "What about the death penalty?" or "What about in war?" "When is war okay and when is it not?" Look at states that attempt not to base their laws on religion. Do you see agreement all round there? Sorry to be so blunt. I really am. But you have to accept the fact that people are not so ready to agree as you think.

DinoBot

the_new_mr wrote: »

Problems in society are not religion's fault. The world's worst atrocities were done without anything to do with religion. Joseph Stalin is one example. Religion is not the common factor. The only common factor is humans.

Sometimes people are bad and they use religion as an excuse.

It's all very well saying "Let's all just agree on the basics" but I think you'll find that some people will disagree on those basics. No killing you say, that's fairly obvious. But what about when some people say "What about the death penalty?" or "What about in war?" "When is war okay and when is it not?" Look at states that attempt not to base their laws on religion. Do you see agreement all round there? Sorry to be so blunt. I really am. But you have to accept the fact that people are not so ready to agree as you think.

to use a quote:
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion." ~ Steven Weinberg, Nobel Laureate in physics

wes

DinoBot wrote: »

to use a quote:
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion." ~ Steven Weinberg, Nobel Laureate in physics

Good people have done bad things in the name of Communism, for example. So to say that its only religion that does this is nonsense.

War leads good people to do bad things. Take for example the creation of the atomic bomb.

How about Nationalism? Plenty of good people did bad things for nationalism. World War 1 is a sterling example of that one.

Religion is not unique in driving good people to do bad things.

the_new_mr

Bang on my friend!

Jannah

wes wrote: »

Good people have done bad things in the name of Communism, for example. So to say that its only religion that does this is nonsense.

War leads good people to do bad things. Take for example the creation of the atomic bomb.

How about Nationalism? Plenty of good people did bad things for nationalism. World War 1 is a sterling example of that one.

Religion is not unique in driving good people to do bad things.

But is still IS a driving force. In the end, extreme nationalism, extreme communism and extreme religiousity are always bad forces