Weight at which Deadlift grip goes

BobbyOLeary

Hey guys,

I was thinking about this yesterday after I did my deadlifts in the gym. I was lifting 110kg for 5 using the double overhand grip. It felt tough to hold onto the bar, I'd say with another 20kg I'll have to switch to the alternate grip.

Out of curiosity, at what weight would you usually have to switch grips? I don't want to switch as I want to improve my grip but I also want to be able to lift heavier. Is it one of these things thats different for everyone or is there a rough level by which everyone is going to be using the alternate grip?

Dragan

Personally i don't split my grip. Having broken both arms a few times at the elbow i find it tends to put a massive strain on the joints.

I've pulled up to 245 with a double over hand raw and never had a niggle in my elbows, if i pull anywhere over 140 with a split the underhand side is gonna kill me at the elbow the next day.

aye

i suppose differing strengths on different people.

personally, i find my grip starts to go at 100kg.
but then i see guys in the gym lifting 140kg + raw and their grip is fine.

Jimmy Bottlehead

So is double-overhead the preferred way? I use an alternating grip myself.

dave80

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »

So is double-overhead the preferred way? I use an alternating grip myself.

me too, its still gives you a good grip workout but it doesnt fail as easily as the double-overhand

Colm_OReilly

Bobby,

Since you're essentially a crossfitter, I'll let Glassman answer here. He answers the deadlift question in the first 90 seconds or so.

How are you pull-ups/chin-ups progressing?

BTW, 110Kg x 5, frickin' nice work man.

Dragan,
Did you break your arms deadlifting? Or something else?

Col

Smellyirishman

aye wrote: »

i suppose differing strengths on different people.
personally, i find my grip starts to go at 100kg.

Heh, was thinking about starting a thread on this as I recently had the same problem. 3x5 @ 100kg feels OK in everything but my hands, using an alt grip, it's definitly a lot lower with an overhand grip. I might try getting some chalk or something because I don't know how long it'll take for my hands to catch up.

Smellyirishman

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Dragan,
Did you break your arms deadlifting? Or something else?

Is that possible? Epic injury if so, especially if it was both at the same time .

Edwardius

Just use the double overhand grip until you can't hold on anymore. The deadlift in itself is savage for developing grip strength. There's no reason to change things around unless you reach a level where the lack of grip is hindering back strength improvements, then it might be a good idea to switch to the alternate grip on really heavy sets but maintain the double overhand on all the warmup sets. I'm having some trouble holding on at 122.5 for 5 but one of the lads pulls 180 with a conventional grip

BobbyOLeary

Thats what I had in mind, I remember watching that video before I started SS and its kept in my mind. Chins and pull-ups are ok, it depends wildly on the grip and how warmed up I am, though I can do about 6 or 7 dead hang chins and about one less in pull-ups. Not those crazy wide grip ones though.

I used to rock climb a lot so maybe my grip was stronger than the average man starting off.

BobbyOLeary

Dead Ed, I'm going to try to keep with the double overhand for as long as possible anyway, why would I give up an extra benefit just for some comfort :-)

Roper

Personally, I do other stuff to develop grip so I just use alternate grip when doing deads, and just leave deadlift as a good back/legs/core exercise.

BrianD3

I used to deadlift double overhand all the time, most I ever did was 210 kg x 1 and grip was starting to become a big limiting factor at that. I found that how I setup for the lift had a big effect on the double overhand grip. Instead of lifting using a setup which allowed maximum leverage and safety I was having to think about how to maximise my grip strength as well.

The mixed grip is a much more "robust" grip and I find i don't have to think about grip at all. Have deadlifted 232.5 kg using it and feel I have a long way to go before grip would become a limiting factor. I can now grind out lifts, that would never have happened before as my grip would give up during the grind.

However I feel with the mixed grip there is a slightly more chance of injuring your upper back, neck, shoulder etc.

As I no longer regularly practice maxing out with a double overhand grip my max is down around 180 kg now

Hanley

Roper wrote: »

Personally, I do other stuff to develop grip so I just use alternate grip when doing deads, and just leave deadlift as a good back/legs/core exercise.

Great post.

Dragan

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Dragan,
Did you break your arms deadlifting? Or something else?

Thankfully not! Not sure if i would ever be able to pull enough weight to add that kind of strain to the joint!

Left arm twice from hurling....both times a chop into the arm while catching the ball....down the country we play for keeps.

Right arm was once on the rugby pitch and once off a wheely-bin but that is a story for another time.

I have a natural fear of arm-bars as a result!!!

With regards to grip strength i'm with Roper, i'll just use straps when i fail grip wise as have no real intentions for powerlifting in the near future and don't see the point in frying my grip with the first back movement of the day when i have all sorts of rows and chins and the like to come!

I think the greatest workout i have ever had was a good BJJ class to be honest.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Dragan wrote: »

I think the greatest workout i have ever had was a good BJJ class to be honest.

You should try Judo if you thought BJJ was tough!.

OP, I think the real question should be at what percentage of your max lift does your grip go.

Mine doesn't, because I use straps always.

In Judo we train at 'grip fighting' - thats a real bitch.

Or sometimes if I feel my grip is failing me, or approaching a competition I do pullups with either a towel or a Judo jacket thrown over the pull up bars.

Dragan

Eeeep, meant to say "grip workout" although Jitz did kick my ass it didn't kick it quite as bad as the Three Bars of Death!

Smellyirishman

Update to this.

I went for a cheap-mans strap today and hung my towel around the barbell, it gave me much better grip and let me add on 5kg comfortably.

Mikel

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Since you're essentially a crossfitter, I'll let Glassman answer here. He answers the deadlift question in the first 90 seconds or so.

Am I understanding that video correctly?
Sure, your form can't be 100% perfect all the time, but you should be as close to it as possible with things like deads and squats.
He mentions slippage in form because of intensity, and if you're at the point of passing out then you can't remember to arch your back etc...
If someone is training a deadlift with that intensity they're stupid. If you want to go all out go ahead, but things like deads and squats and warrant more care than that. If people are training this way it's only a matter of time before someone seriously injures themselves.

Transform

Mikel wrote: »

Am I understanding that video correctly?
Sure, your form can't be 100% perfect all the time, but you should be as close to it as possible with things like deads and squats.
He mentions slippage in form because of intensity, and if you're at the point of passing out then you can't remember to arch your back etc...
If someone is training a deadlift with that intensity they're stupid. If you want to go all out go ahead, but things like deads and squats and warrant more care than that. If people are training this way it's only a matter of time before someone seriously injures themselves.

Would have to agree with the above - easier to just do a few drop sets after a 1min rest with a lighter weight anyway.

I never work to total failure on deadlifts as the strain is just too risky. I love a bit of farmers walking for the gip and find at my current deadlift of 160-170kg for 2-3reps and 5-6 sets raw my grip is never an issue.

Finally, poor form can cause you to use your upper body too much especailly if hips are tight.

Deadlifts are imo the best test of strength - you can't cheat on them like a shallow squat or not getting bar to touch chest on bench press and avoiding them is the primary reason most men continue to look the same week in week out in the gym.

Hanley

Transform wrote: »

Would have to agree with the above - easier to just do a few drop sets after a 1min rest with a lighter weight anyway.

I never work to total failure on deadlifts as the strain is just too risky. I love a bit of farmers walking for the gip and find at my current deadlift of 160-170kg for 2-3reps and 5-6 sets raw my grip is never an issue.

Finally, poor form can cause you to use your upper body too much especailly if hips are tight.

Deadlifts are imo the best test of strength - you can't cheat on them like a shallow squat or not getting bar to touch chest on bench press and avoiding them is the primary reason most men continue to look the same week in week out in the gym.

I would definately agree.










BUT (there's always a but) as someone who's not build to deadlift, it always p!sses me off (jealousy you see) when I see someone pulling monsterous weights relative easily (that is within a year or two of beginning training).

Wood

I don't find much of a problem with grip until i hit around 250ish, then the fingers start to go a bit wobbly, anything under that is usualy fairly manageable for a while until fatigue kicks in.

Farmers walks really help, or for that added kick if you need it/can handle it, walking lunges for about 20-30 paces with some good heavy DB's

I've never used straps/gloves, only used a belt once and didn't like it, so i prefer to keep it raw. Real raw. Naked.....


But Transform pretty much had the perfect post there.

Roper

By not being built to deadlift you mean you're over 5 foot 3 right?

You'd want to be fairly confident in your deadlift form to hit the sort of intensity metcons require. I'm not that happy with my form and one bad pull at a decent weight has me in rags for a couple of days afterwards.

I agree with Transform. Show 10 guys how to deadlift, squat, bench and press. Tell them that deadlift is the most important, then leave them for 2 weeks and come back, I guarantee most of them will be pressing and squatting and only one or 2 will be deadlifting. I don't deadlift as much as I should.

Transform

My workout yesterday as example

21mins run -
5mins at 12kph then 6 intervals going from 12kph (2mins)to 16-18kph (1mins)

4-5mins break then

deadlift 60kg followed by push ups with feet on bench and hands on pair of dumbbells (was using rings but strap broke). 10reps on each for 15rounds.

Then pull ups 5reps followed by 15kg biceps curls 10reps for 10sets.

All done in under an hour while all the others in carlisle did their smith machine bench press, curls and crunches.

I did this with two other friends as we swapped on each exercise.

Not easy but fun for a change to heavy deadlifting and an easy way to cover all the fundamentals well.

finally, when in westwood i see some guys doing heavy squats (150kg+) but not going very deep yet NEVER see many people do beyond 100kg deadlift.

with the Deadlift you either lift it off the floor or you don't period!

Blazher

First off,

I have never done a deadlift in my life didnt even know what it was till i seen the thread.

I only started in the gym about 3 weeks ago. I go 3 times a week,

Im new to working out. I mainly try what i see people doing while im in the gym, I work on my Chest/Shoulders/Arms/legs.

I can Leg press 400Kg x12 rep x 3 sets but only Bench press about 80x 8Rep x3 sets.

I am 5'11 and 100 Kg. My question is what is the best way to build yourself up for a deadlift? Il give them a try tomorrow in the gym

Il try 60kg and see how i get on. What is best number of reps and set to do to build yourself up?

Mikel

Roper wrote: »

You'd want to be fairly confident in your deadlift form to hit the sort of intensity metcons require. I'm not that happy with my form and one bad pull at a decent weight has me in rags for a couple of days afterwards.

I agree with Transform. Show 10 guys how to deadlift, squat, bench and press. Tell them that deadlift is the most important, then leave them for 2 weeks and come back, I guarantee most of them will be pressing and squatting and only one or 2 will be deadlifting. I don't deadlift as much as I should.

I'm not a crossfitter but i've dabbled in the metcon type workouts, tbh i'd use other exercises for intensity, prob body weight or farmers walks and keep squats and deads strict only. When i'm injury free i'm gonna learn to deadlift properly

BossArky

OP, to answer your question, my deadlift one rep max when from 110kg to 130kg by switching from double overhand to mixed grip --> 17% increase.

Colm_OReilly

Mikel et al,

There is an impression from CrossFit - and this is very much our fault from the videos we post - that intensity is God, and we'll let form go to ****.

However, we accept a degree of form breakdown for intensity. If form is perfect, we want to increase the intensity until the point that form breaks down beyond what's acceptable, then we fix form, and increase intensity.

For things like 1RM or 3RM form is important, but it is going to break down somewhere, or else it's not limit strength. For people learnign the dead/squat, they're kept at the weight where form is say 90% correct until they geet up to say 95% before moving on.

In short, we do care about technique. Technique --> Consistency --> Intensity.

Blazher,

Start with an empty bar or PVC pipe, get the form down. Also, squat.

Hanley

I would argue that unless your form is perfect then you aren't reaching true intensity levels. I'll admit this is more important with equipped lifting, but if you're not hitting the right positions with max weight you run the risk of getting stapled. SOME breakdown's to be expected, but I would say a small amount.

Mikel

Some breakdown is expected I agree, it's a matter of where you draw the line.
I'm paraphrasing what I remember from the video, but it was along the lines of 'of course his back is rounding.... that's what happens when you're at the intensity where you're close to passing out'

He makes the point that your technique has to be good to reach that intensity, but I would contend that if you're at the back rounding stage you've crossed the line.
Some people can get away with more than others obv, I'm just worried that if somebody thinks it's acceptable to deadlift with a rounded back in the name of intensity it's just a matter of time before serious damage is done.

I like the way crossfit have repopularised the power and oly lifts, i just sometimes get the impression that there's a danger that they don't get treated with the care that's warranted.

Re intensity, what would you lose doing an 'intensity' type workout with say squat thrusts for eg over deads.
Maybe i'm just risk averse, that's my injuries talking

Transform

Blazher wrote: »

First off,

I have never done a deadlift in my life didnt even know what it was till i seen the thread.

I only started in the gym about 3 weeks ago. I go 3 times a week,

Im new to working out. I mainly try what i see people doing while im in the gym, I work on my Chest/Shoulders/Arms/legs.

I can Leg press 400Kg x12 rep x 3 sets but only Bench press about 80x 8Rep x3 sets.

I am 5'11 and 100 Kg. My question is what is the best way to build yourself up for a deadlift? Il give them a try tomorrow in the gym

Il try 60kg and see how i get on. What is best number of reps and set to do to build yourself up?

Stop leg pressing - glory lifting.

Start squatting and deadlifting - it will take about a year to get good at both.

BobbyOLeary

Funny, was at the gym on monday, pulled 115kg for 5 with the double overhand grip and I never even thought about my grip failing. My back is still weaker than my hands obviously!

Quick question, when my grip does go, should I move to straps or switch overhand? I have no inclination whatsoever to compete so would straps be a safer, more comfortable option?

aye

an instuctor in my gym was telling me about hook straps

http://cgi.ebay.ie/weight-lifting-hooks-bodybuilding-heavy-Duty-straps_W0QQitemZ360047361901QQihZ023QQcategoryZ36154QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

look pretty good.

as per your question, personally when my grip started going, i started using an alternate grip. i havent bought straps yet as i'm still ok with the alternate grip.

joker77

Transform wrote: »

Start squatting and deadlifting - it will take about a year to get good at both.

How do you mean good?

BobbyOLeary

Using decent weights with good form. I guess, I can't think of any other way of being 'good' at weights!

joker77

Not being funny - but define decent weight? In terms of bodyweight for both maybe?

I just want to get a picture of where I'll be in 11 months time (Only really started taking the Squat and Deadlift seriously a month ago)

Reyman

Transform wrote: »

My workout yesterday as example

finally, when in westwood i see some guys doing heavy squats (150kg+) but not going very deep yet NEVER see many people do beyond 100kg deadlift.

with the Deadlift you either lift it off the floor or you don't period!

Likewise in my Gym.

I never see anyone Dead lifting a decent weight. Lots of bench pressing and arm curls but no real work going on !

BobbyOLeary

joker77 wrote: »

Not being funny - but define decent weight? In terms of bodyweight for both maybe?

I just want to get a picture of where I'll be in 11 months time (Only really started taking the Squat and Deadlift seriously a month ago)

http://www.crossfit.com/cf-journal/WLSTANDARDS.pdf

Those are Mark Rippetoe's Strength Standards, they're in pounds and its your 1RM. Intermediate is roughly 1 - 2 years training so have a look at those numbers for your bodyweight. Personally I'm between novice and intermediate for my weight (165lbs) with about 3 - 4 months training.

joker77

Thanks for that - gives me a good idea now. I'm still very much at the Novice stage, so hopefully in a years time I'll be at Intermediate.

Colm_OReilly

Bobby,

Eventually you're going to have to reset SS, build up again, stall, reset. Then move to intermediate programming. Eventually something will become the limiting factor in your deads. At novice/inter stage, I wouldn't be advising straps. Are you still cleaning/chinning? That will aid in grip development.

I like the way crossfit have repopularised the power and oly lifts, i just sometimes get the impression that there's a danger that they don't get treated with the care that's warranted.

Re intensity, what would you lose doing an 'intensity' type workout with say squat thrusts for eg over deads.
Maybe i'm just risk averse, that's my injuries talking

You can get injured doing lateral raises with light dumb bells, running at low intensities due to poor technique or footwear, and a lot of the silly exercises seen in gyms aren't natural movement patterns. I do see your point, but the notion that free weights are dangerous is pretty much unfounded.

And not all form breakdowns are dangerous, just inefficient. Consistent poor form can lead to muscle imbalances, sure.

As for your "intensity" question, I'm not exactly sure what you mean.

Blazher

Transform wrote: »

Stop leg pressing - glory lifting.

Start squatting and deadlifting - it will take about a year to get good at both.

How? I never did any work on my legs, I always had stronge legs. I seen some bloke in the gym on the leg press and i thought id give it ago.

As i said im only new to the gym. I am playing around with 60Kg Deadlifts at the mo. Just trying to get good form. I seen a video on youtube so im using that.

Also in the few weeks im in westwood. I havent seen one person doing deadlifts.

Dragan

Blazher wrote: »

Also in the few weeks im in westwood. I havent seen one person doing deadlifts.

If thats Sandyford give me a shout and i'll meet up and go through the joy of DL'ing with you.

BobbyOLeary

How? I never did any work on my legs, I always had stronge legs. I seen some bloke in the gym on the leg press and i thought id give it ago.

It'll take that long to get good form at those weights. The leg press is an awful machine for using crazy weights. I remember at 16 I could apparently leg press about 140kg with no prior weight training, now I struggle with 3 sets of 5 of 95kg squats.

A leg press doesn't equal a squat by any means, don't take this as an insult, I don't know anybody who strolls into a gym and can tell the difference. A lot of people who've been there ages still can't!

Eventually you're going to have to reset SS, build up again, stall, reset. Then move to intermediate programming. Eventually something will become the limiting factor in your deads. At novice/inter stage, I wouldn't be advising straps. Are you still cleaning/chinning? That will aid in grip development.

Oh I know, I've already had to reset the program on squats, I couldn't make the jump from 90 to 92.5 so I dropped to 85 and went back at it. I must make myself up some smaller weights, some 0.5kg ones maybe. I was just curious about what to do WHEN my grip goes, which I don't see happening for a while anyhow. Yep still power cleaning and chinning, off the wagon this week because of study however, might get a workout in tomorrow.

Hanley

Blazher wrote: »

How? I never did any work on my legs, I always had stronge legs. I seen some bloke in the gym on the leg press and i thought id give it ago.

As i said im only new to the gym. I am playing around with 60Kg Deadlifts at the mo. Just trying to get good form. I seen a video on youtube so im using that.

Also in the few weeks im in westwood. I havent seen one person doing deadlifts.

Having a strong leg press does not equal having strong legs unfortunately...

It's good you're starting to work on the deadlifts!!

Transform

Blazher wrote: »

How? I never did any work on my legs, I always had stronge legs. I seen some bloke in the gym on the leg press and i thought id give it ago.

As i said im only new to the gym. I am playing around with 60Kg Deadlifts at the mo. Just trying to get good form. I seen a video on youtube so im using that.

Also in the few weeks im in westwood. I havent seen one person doing deadlifts.

Leg press = lots of weight and usually poor form. Deadlifts you cant really cheat on or your going to get injured.

I train in westwood sandyford and there are plenty of women deadlifting, squatting and chinning there.

Again most guys fart about doing mickey mouse exercises rather than getting down to it. Having a great, strong physique and feeling fit comes dressed up in disguise and reveals itsself in boots and overalls i.e. comes down to hard work and consistency in getting stronger in all body parts over time.

Blazher

Cheers for the info lads.

I was talking about Northwood in santry sorry, I got mixed up with westwood in Fairview.

So i should be doing Deadlifts and squats. Anything else?

Mikel

Colm_OReilly wrote:

You can get injured doing lateral raises with light dumb bells, running at low intensities due to poor technique or footwear, and a lot of the silly exercises seen in gyms aren't natural movement patterns. I do see your point, but the notion that free weights are dangerous is pretty much unfounded.

didn't say free weights are dangerous. I said rounding your back to get more 'intensity' is dangerous.

And not all form breakdowns are dangerous, just inefficient. Consistent poor form can lead to muscle imbalances, sure.

Maybe you're right, but I wouls class form breakdowns on deadlifts as dangerous, not just inefficient

As for your "intensity" question, I'm not exactly sure what you mean

I mean you could do say deadlifts at a high intensity with a lower weight for a metabolic effect.
What would you lose substituting squat thrusts?

Hanley

When talking about weights, Intensity = % of 1rm

Mikel

Ah ok, my terminology is wrong then, intensity is not the word I should be using.
What I mean is for eg, you could do high rep deadlifts for a cardio/conditioning effect, or you could try to achieve the same thing using body weight.
Would you lose any of the conditioning benefit?

Hanley

I'd say most people know what you mean, but I just struggle to reconcile it's usage in my head!!

FWIW, I wouldnt touch high rep deads for conditioning. Squats or cleans/snatches yes, but not pulls (just because of the horrible load they place on your lower back, imo)

Mikel

I'd be the same, too much scope to relax on the bottom imo