Smith Machine ruined my progress on Bench

BrokenArrows

It was pretty busy in my gym the last 2 weeks and for the 6 sessions i was there i used the smith machine as the other benches were being used.

before those sessions i was able to complete 3 sets of 8 reps well maybe 2 sets and 5 on the 3rd.

after the sessions on the smith machine i got up to 1 set on 60kg and 2 on 50kg.

today i went back and there was a free bench so i loaded up 50kg. i couldnt even complete 1 set of 8. My balance was well off and i just didnt feel i had any power.

After a quick search on google i see there is alot of discussion on the down sides of them.

anyone use them or have anything positive to say about them?

tribulus

Not really no, I'd always try to pick a free weight alternative or wait for one to free up.

Hanley

They're good for rack chins. That's about it.

Colm_OReilly

Let's not forget hanging towels.

If the bench is in use, try alternating with push ups, dips/weighted dips, shoulder pressing, handstand push ups. Not exactly the same as the bench but decent exercises which hopefully should be part of your routine anyway.

WHIP IT!

No bench available for me last night either so I did my usual benchroutine with dumbbells. Pressing on a flat bench. Working my way up from 2x20kg at 10 reps up through 22.5, 25 etc up to 40kg at (almost) 5 reps.

I would've assumed this was the nearest substitute to bench pressing with a barbell?

tribulus

Yeah there's no problem doing that.

bwardrop

Was the smith machine counterbalanced - i.e. was is there an internal weight on the machine to help control / smooth the action of the bar? If so, this might explain why you were able to lift more on it as the counterbalance would aid you during the lifting phase.

Also, the smith machine is designed to take over some of the control of the exercise, so you are less reliant on stabilizer / fixator muscles during the movement. This usually allows you to lift a little more weight, particularly if you are familiar with the exercise.

Canis Lupus

I was using the smith to build a base before braving free weights..... I could bench 50kg on the smith and then switched to the real deal and I won't say how much I had to drop. I wouldn't go near the smith again.

As an aside I find my triceps are also building themselves nicely since I switched to to free.

Hail 2 Da Chimp

I use a Smith Machine the odd time, as I have no access to a proper bench during my normal gym session. I much prefer dumb bell presses.
But as a guide I try to use the dumb bells in at least 80-90% of my exercises only using the smith machine for a bit of variation.

TerrorFirmer

I have to say it straight out that I think you've kidding yourself if you think a Smith would reduce your bench at an already relatively low weight by 20 kilos after a few sessions. And I don't mean that in a condescending way.

I don't use a Smith, I use free weights generally, but at times I go a few weeks using just a Smith. My bench isn't impeded in the slightest.

Also, you might be confused with regards what weight you are using. It could be an assisted smith, in that the bar doesn't actually count, so 50kg = 50kg. On a bench, 50kg = 70kg when you count the bar (assuming its an Olympic). Maybe you've been just lifting much less then you thought and now find going back to the heavier weights.

And you might have just had a bad day. Some days I can go 110, other days I just find myself exhausted even trying 80 or 90, and yes it's annoying when it happens but you have to just put it down to a once off. Make sure you've full of energy before you lift.

bwardrop

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Also, you might be confused with regards what weight you are using. It could be an assisted smith, in that the bar doesn't actually count, so 50kg = 50kg. On a bench, 50kg = 70kg when you count the bar (assuming its an Olympic)

Good post - what I was trying to say above, but more succinct!

t-ha

i agree ^^^^.

Although the smith machine is an inherently misguided piece of equipment, I really can't see it destroying anything within two weeks, injuries notwithstanding.

Also, am I reading right that you do 6 benching sessions every two weeks? What is the rest of your programme like?

Jumpy

Would anyone have any ideas about a similar situation except this is from moving from normal bench to dumbbells.

Could bench 60 with a normal bench, but in the new gym, they dont have a bench press, only free weights, so I tried using 2x 20kg to get used to it. Couldnt even do 3 sets of 8.
Even a month later I can barely do 2x 24kg 3 sets of 8.

justsomebloke

t-ha wrote: »

i agree ^^^^.

Although the smith machine is an inherently misguided piece of equipment, I really can't see it destroying anything within two weeks, injuries notwithstanding.

Also, am I reading right that you do 6 benching sessions every two weeks? What is the rest of your programme like?

agreed on both points, I really can't see it destroying your bench in 2 weeks and also 6 bench sessions in 2 weeks seems a lot if it isn't part of a specific programme

WHIP IT!

Jumpy wrote: »

Would anyone have any ideas about a similar situation except this is from moving from normal bench to dumbbells.

Could bench 60 with a normal bench, but in the new gym, they dont have a bench press, only free weights, so I tried using 2x 20kg to get used to it. Couldnt even do 3 sets of 8.
Even a month later I can barely do 2x 24kg 3 sets of 8.

Well, you'll never be able to DB press what you can BB press. I work my BB press up to about 110 or so but 80kg (2x40s) is as high as I go when I'm using dumbbells.

TerrorFirmer

Same for me on the dumbbell press, not even close to my bb.

Saabdub

Jumpy wrote: »

Would anyone have any ideas about a similar situation except this is from moving from normal bench to dumbbells.

Could bench 60 with a normal bench, but in the new gym, they dont have a bench press, only free weights, so I tried using 2x 20kg to get used to it. Couldnt even do 3 sets of 8.
Even a month later I can barely do 2x 24kg 3 sets of 8.

A few years back I moved from a York bar and bench (with a narrow stand) to an Olympic bar and Power Rack. I suddenly found I couldn't balance the wider bar properly and had to drop weight and work my way up again so that my stabiliser muscles could get used to the new type of load.

Saabdub

aye

Jumpy wrote: »

Would anyone have any ideas about a similar situation except this is from moving from normal bench to dumbbells.

Could bench 60 with a normal bench, but in the new gym, they dont have a bench press, only free weights, so I tried using 2x 20kg to get used to it. Couldnt even do 3 sets of 8.
Even a month later I can barely do 2x 24kg 3 sets of 8.

more stabiliser muscles are called into play.
also your stronger side cant compensate for the weaker side.

Jimmy Bottlehead

WHIP IT! wrote: »

Well, you'll never be able to DB press what you can BB press. I work my BB press up to about 110 or so but 80kg (2x40s) is as high as I go when I'm using dumbbells.

Aye I'm finding the DB presses a lot harder than BB presses. But if its challenging, its all good in my books!

arybvtcw0eolkf

Lads if the OP is a newbie to the gym then its totally conceivable that something like the Smith Machine would knock them off their training.

Afterall the OP will still be using and learning about muscles and body mechanics which they've never had to worry about before.

OP if thats the case when you return to your regular training things will speed up again (ie you'll start making those losses back) very quickly, I honestly wouldn't worry about it.

bwardrop

Mairt wrote: »

Lads if the OP is a newbie to the gym then its totally conceivable that something like the Smith Machine would knock them off their training.

Afterall the OP will still be using and learning about muscles and body mechanics which they've never had to worry about before.

I actually think the opposite is true - the smith machine is very beneficial to beginners as it allows them to perform the correct movement (provided the bench is correctly placed) without having to control the weight as much as with a free weight.

Edwardius

but if you can perform the basic move with lighter weights outside the smith you can sort out the motor pathways involved much more quickly and build stability and balance in direct proportion to pressing strength, as opposed to using something that allows you to artificially push more. When is anyone ever going to need to push something that's restricted to a perfectly vertical trajectory?

Hanley

bwardrop wrote: »

I actually think the opposite is true - the smith machine is very beneficial to beginners as it allows them to perform the correct movement (provided the bench is correctly placed) without having to control the weight as much as with a free weight.

Seriously???

Dead Ed said everything I was about to say.

bwardrop

Yeah - I think the smith has it's place for learning an exercise. I totally agree with Dead Ed - if you can perform the exercise outside of the smith machine, then that is best approach.

The smith machine bench press is a more basic move than a free bench press, and could be beneficial to a beginner for practicing the movement without having to worry about stabilizing the bar. This will help develop the gross motor pattern required to perform the movement. Stabilizing and balancing a bar is a more advanced move, which requires online motor programming. There is a lot for a beginner to consider in the bench press (body position, breathing, grip width etc), and removing the need to stabilize the bar allows these to be established before trying to incorporate the whole lot together.

The point is, I don't think the smith machine should hinder a person's training, if used correctly.

Colm_OReilly

Surely a bench press isn't a perfectly vertical movement? I'm sure there's some lateral movement (natural) en route from chest to lockout towards the head.

Stabilizing and balancing a bar is a more advanced move, which requires online motor programming

online motor programming? I don't know what you mean by this.

There's a need to stabilise yourself/the weight in essentially all exercises (dead, clean, squat, press, etc.) Why should one limit the development of balance/coordination/accuracy by having artifical stability?

arybvtcw0eolkf

bwardrop wrote: »

I actually think the opposite is true -

Good stuff, I don't.

cowzerp

The smith machine did not make you weaker at bench pressing!
Not bench pressing made you weaker at bench pressing, different exercises, same muscles but been good at 1 does not mean your good at the other..

When you get back practising your exercise the neuro pathways will be back to fully working and you'll be back to your present potential-the meuro pathways are different in both so best not comparing them..

bwardrop

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

online motor programming? I don't know what you mean by this.

There's a need to stabilise yourself/the weight in essentially all exercises (dead, clean, squat, press, etc.) Why should one limit the development of balance/coordination/accuracy by having artifical stability?

Some moves require you to take sensory feedback, process it and use it to adapt or correct the move, all while the move is being performed - this is online programming. In the case of the bench press, the balancing / stabilizing element requires online programming. If you feel the bar deviating from its path, you will act to correct it.

The post by Mairt which I responded to said "if the OP is a newbie to the gym then its totally conceivable that something like the Smith Machine would knock them off their training" - The post was specific to a novice and in my response, I tried to keep my answer specific to a novice.

The exercises mentioned above all require varying degrees of expertise & are not something a beginner would ordinarily use (squats and presses being something that most people would move on to after using machine weights initially). I totally agree with you Colm - I don't believe anyone should sacrifice any aspect of their development at any stage. However, I do think that equipment like the smith machine, can help beginners progress safely and efficiently and should not hinder anyone if used properly.

BobbyOLeary

However, I do think that equipment like the smith machine, can help beginners progress safely and efficiently

I'd disagree with this. Well disagree is the wrong word, I would have thought that you would want to teach the complete movement to begin with (even down to a broomstick if needs be), not an artificial movement that allows larger weights to be lifted.

Just an example, I was in the gym one day with a friend of mine who likes to 'squat' in a smith machine, this day it was busy and he joined me on the squat rack. He loaded up his usual smith machine load (taking into account the 20kg oly bar) and tried to squat, didn't work as the weight was too heavy and he needed me to spot him. I know the bench and the squat aren't quite the same thing here but the smith machine could give someone a false sense of strength which could result in injury when he/she tries free weights. Just for that I'd think its a bad idea.

Hanley

Seriously. The way you guys are going on, you'd swear stabilising an empty bar while bench pressing is difficult. There is absolutely no reason to use a smith machine when learning how to bench.

bwardrop

Hanley is right - this is getting ridiculous. I said in post #24 that I think the the free bench is the best way to learn the free bench.

The smith machine the doesn't teach an artificial movement, just a less complex one.

Stabilizing an empty bar is not difficult for the majority. Using an empty bar or a broom handle may not provide enough of a stimulus to activate the stabilizer / fixator muscles. Using a weight that does may distract a person from the requirements of the rest of the movement.

As an exercise professional, having this alternative (smith machine) in your arsenal when teaching may - sometimes, perhaps, on the odd occasion, once in a blue moon, sporadically - prove useful to help someone progress with their technique.

Hanley

bwardrop wrote: »

Hanley is right - this is getting ridiculous. I said in post #24 that I think the the free bench is the best way to learn the free bench.

The smith machine the doesn't teach an artificial movement, just a less complex one.

Stabilizing an empty bar is not difficult for the majority. Using an empty bar or a broom handle may not provide enough of a stimulus to activate the stabilizer / fixator muscles. Using a weight that does may distract a person from the requirements of the rest of the movement.

As an exercise professional, having this alternative (smith machine) in your arsenal when teaching may - sometimes, perhaps, on the odd occasion, once in a blue moon, sporadically - prove useful to help someone progress with their technique.

I know I've read about a certain percentage range being preferable for this but I can't remember where it lies. I would GUESS that it's in the 70-80% range (based off the way Boris Sheiko wrote his training cycles).

Transform

Beginners should start with being able to complete full press ups (20reps )and dips (10reps) before they start benching.

smith machine - good for hanging my towel on and some calf raises otherwise a glory machine with very little true value compared to far better exercises.

Hanley

10 dips for a heavier guy who hasn't trained would be a pretty mean feat....

Transform

Hanley wrote: »

10 dips for a heavier guy who hasn't trained would be a pretty mean feat....

True - then just aim to build to 15-20rep press ups on the knees at first.

The majority of beginners i have delt with need farrrrr more focus on the upper back muscles as most have rounded shoulders and focusing on pressing movements can just worsen the problem

So plenty of rows, rotator cuff work and scapular retraction exercises would be my first port of call - best to build that foundation first

Hanley

Transform wrote: »

So plenty of rows, rotator cuff work and scapular retraction exercises would be my first port of call - best to build that foundation first

Gotta agree there. That's where the majority of my training's focused too. Posterior chain for squat and deadlift. Lats, upper back and especially tri's for benching. I've started to put a bit more emphasis on my chest tho since I've been ignoring it a bit.

BrokenArrows

humm i got quite the discussion going.

as said in the post somewhere im probably a novice lifter which would be true.

what ever the pros and cons of it are ill be avoiding it from now on anyway.

i like the idea of the substitute of the dumbells if the benches are being used. Might even make this is regular part of my routine.

Someone said 6 bench days in two weeks was alot. really! i woulnt have thought so.

What would be a usual amount?

Jimmy Bottlehead

I'd say MOST would hit chest once a week, so twice in two weeks.

tribulus

1-2 sessions a week should be plenty. You balance out all the pressing with rows and other backwork too.

cowzerp

bwardrop wrote: »

I said in post #24 that I think the the free bench is the best way to learn the free bench.

Some people do the smith chest press to get a chest workout and not to learn free bench pressing! My dad who i train really does not want to do free weights so the smith gives me some options that are still working the same muscles and giving more variety than just the machines he usually uses!

bwardrop wrote: »

The smith machine doesn't teach an artificial movement, just a less complex one.

Exactly, some people dont want the complex exercises, if someone is very out of shape or scared, yes scared of free weights then the smith is just like the chest press machines but can build confidence as the people feel like there doing free weights, then if there confidence is built up then you might be able to move them on to free weights!

Transform

Do not agree at all - dips and press ups are still easier to teach, progress and there is no better confidence building feeling than being able to drop and do 15-20press ups (or dip equivalent) without much hassle.

While on press ups -

J Strength Cond Res. 2005 Aug;19(3):628-33.
This study suggests that, if a goal is to induce greater muscle activation during exercise, then push-ups should be performed with hands in a narrow base position compared with a wide base position i.e. do your press ups with a parallel grip and close grip position (elbows will brush your ribs as you lower).

Are press ups a complex exercise - no.

TKD SC

Hanley wrote: »

Gotta agree there. That's where the majority of my training's focused too. Posterior chain for squat and deadlift. Lats, upper back and especially tri's for benching. I've started to put a bit more emphasis on my chest tho since I've been ignoring it a bit.

Hi Hanley,

Since the back was mentioned above, what would you say are the "best" ex's for the back to have in a simple routine? Deadlift. What for Lats? Pull ups?
What about Upper back?

I'm on the Starting strength workout A & B routine at moment, and doing seperate rotator cuff work for my injury, but just wondering re some main ex's for the back as above to make sure I'm not leaving out an area that could cause imbalances, and now after seeing that you and also Transform spend a great deal of time on the back.

Thanks very much,

Simon

Hanley

K.I.S.S

'Back' as a whole - conventional deadlifts
Lats - Pull ups, pull downs and heavy rows
Upper back - shrugs, face pulls, seated dumbbell power cleans

arybvtcw0eolkf

Hanley wrote: »

K.I.S.S

Hi Princess

Keep It Simple Stupid

BobbyOLeary

Hanley,

How do you do a seated power clean? Would you not need to be standing for the jump?

Hanley

The name's a bit of a misnomer. It's not an explosive movement at all.

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=kvVEz-tBgvg

BobbyOLeary

Thanks for that!

bwardrop

Hanley wrote: »

K.I.S.S

Best advice I have seen on here yet!!

brianthebard

Hanley wrote: »

The name's a bit of a misnomer. It's not an explosive movement at all.

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=kvVEz-tBgvg

Got to try them next day, thanks.

WHIP IT!

brianthebard wrote: »

Got to try them next day, thanks.

When I was doing the Westside for Skinny B*stards preseason programme, I used to superset them with barbell rows - tough! But very effective.

Hanley

Definately don't start with anymore than 5kg anyone. I struggled thru sets of 12 with 10kg 'bells today and my upper back is something I've worked real hard on recently.