Hilltop applying for planning for three new ranges

Sparks

IRLConor wrote: »

If you're interested in ending up doing ISSF 300m then one of the best things to practice with is the 50m 3P competition. From what I can see it's a scaled down version of the 300m event.

Well, there's a 300m prone match and a 300m 3-P match (and both have both free rifle and standard rifle versions). So you could try the 50m matches to get an idea of the course of fire; and you find that a lot of international shooters use the same stock for both 50m and 300m and just swap actions for the different events.

It wasn't me!

Well, it's a necked down .30-06 case, so I'm thinking it'll probably hit 300m at a push. 75gr round does 3700fps according to Wiki, so should be decently accurate.

I'll have to get into 50m stuff alright, but tough enough at the same time, not really got access to any facilities for it at the moment. I'll try it when I get a chance though, possibly try the DURC 50m open when that's on.

Ah, it's all just theoretical really. It'll be a long while before I've got the means for a good rifle and reloading kit anyway (and I imagine by the time I have such funds, reloading will be well and truly established. :P), but might be something to consider when the time comes. I'll keep bashing smallbore for now though.

Gunter Mauser

Two offers of sites for fullbore ranges on the East Coast along with Pat Cooks application in the pipeline, taught I had died and woke up in shooting heaven.

Are any of the NGB's going to at the very least go and have a look at the offered sites if that would not be too much to ask as this is something that should be supported from the Top Down not having a bunch of lads just starting out trying and take this on without the experience of seniors like many of you here on Boards. The NRAI, SSAI, NTSA could offer to set up some sort of Committee chairing an organized meeting of interested parties provided the locations have the potential to get authorized in the first place?

Looking at this new range in Kerry I see they got 50% of the start up costs from this Leader fund, how does this work?

Shooting Classic Military rifles in .303 or converted 7.62 nato is one way to start off and get into this sport on the cheap. A Standard good stalking rifle or better still one with a Vermin / bull barrel new or second hand even better. Sporting light class factory rifles are segregated from the heavy class expensive custom rifles so you can compete in F-Class.

Ammunition cost after finding a range in the first place is the next big issue. Without Reloading .223 & 308 are the best bet to keep the costs as reasonable as possible
without necessarily having to use top match competition ammo all the time.

Have a poll to see if new fullbore ranges around the country are needed or wanted?

Sparks

Gunter Mauser wrote: »

this is something that should be supported from the Top Down

Oh god no. Don't drown this in committees at birth. At worst, pick one poor sod and let him coordinate by tracking scores in matches and the like. Get the matches going, get people shooting, then add the bare minimum of admin as you need it. And you won't need it until you start needing things like international shooting.

Looking at this new range in Kerry I see they got 50% of the start up costs from this Leader fund, how does this work?

You call your local sports partnership, tell them about your club and what competitions you're going for and your junior programs and anything else sporting that you're doing and ask them how they can help you. They're very helpful (at least, the Meath Leader programme always has been - we've seen small grants to junior shooters like carding grants, and things like that).

Bananaman

The NRAI, SSAI, NTSA could offer to set up some sort of Committee chairing an organized meeting of interested parties

Sweet Jesus Nooooooooooo - I may need treatment to get the pucker out of my asshole after that statement - I need a wash.

Don't drown this in committees at birth

+1


Remember folks that the ranges are owned by the ranges - there are no committees etc to decide on what type of biscuits should be in the kitchen or when the grass should be mown.

If we get these ranges then they will be operated as what they are - rifle ranges. There is no need for a committee for that. You simply need to have Range Officers. People will show themselves to be competent in the ROs view and then they will shoot - and they will enjoy it.

Why in all that is holy or in a fig roll would you want to wrap a committee around that.

B'Man

Sparks

Yup. Don't get me wrong (and I think Bman would agree here) - there are things you need NGBs and the like for. Someone has to track national level scores when you've matches happening all over the place. Someone ought to keep a national ranking so people have something to climb up. Someone needs to organise national squad level stuff when you get to that stage, and you can't put together an Irish Team without an NGB. But in the beginning, when it's just ordinary shooting? No. Bad idea (tm). Even when it's established, the NGB shouldn't be the avenue of first resort. If you want to hold a club match, hold it. More matches the better. Only when it starts to get to national level should the national bodies be needed.

(That's not an excuse to skip on things like safety courses, mind...)

Gunter Mauser

Interested parties is what sikamick mentioned as they cannot take this on by themselves meeting in a structured involvement. The NRAI know a thing or two about ranges along with whats involved, the Canadian range regulations that will apply here etc.
So more of a forum held at the national stadium of fullbore shooting the Midlands range?
We have the national stadium but not enough local to cater for urban Man /Lad who only ever gets to see a firearm on the telly.

If we get to have some more ranges like the one in Kerry they would make great training ranges who hopefully will bring new people into the sport who might other wise never consider this type of shooting. Having national competition held at the Midlands something to aim at.;)

Bananaman

Interested parties is what sikamick mentioned as they cannot take this on by themselves

I am assuming here that most Ranges are a business - Midlands is no more going to allow you to form a committee to tell them what do do than anyone else.

The owner(s) of a range will take thi on by themselves and get a facility in place and get it authorised and then make it available for use at their discretion. If they require consultation from any organisations or individuals the ask for it and if necessary pay for it.

I am not actively involved in any of this but as far as I know - people need to ensure that the get the relevant PP, that they get Ballistics to give a good report, that they get Justice to authorise the range and that they get the local super to issue the authorsation.

If it is a club solely formed of its members then they can form a committee, raise the necessary funds, buy the land, buy the heavy moving equipment, do the surveying, do the acoustics, do the planning, construct the range, do the ballistics, do the authorisation process and then shoot.

Hilltop is, however, a business and Pat is using the funds raised from Joining Fees and annual subs to go through this process.

The NRAI know a thing or two about ranges along with whats involved, the Canadian range regulations that will apply here etc.

The Canadian Regulations have not come into effect here yet so there is no point in jumping the gun and trying to adopt them. If and when they do come into affect then people will conform to them. From what I have read in them they are not that different from any other description of a range except that they have a degree of realism in them and have been whittled down and added to over time from practical experience - by that I do not mean IPSC experience although they do have an entire chapter on IPSC ranges.

They do not call for a special sand only found on one island of the Maldives they do not call for baffles made from a type of timber only grown on one of the galapagos islands.

Like I said Ballisitics and Justice decide if a range is suitable. If you conform exactly to the Canadian regualtions that will not help you as they have not adopted it yet.

Gunter Mauser

"Midlands is no more going to allow you to form a committee to tell them what do do than anyone else".NO.. Venue in a location that has all the advice and expertise on hand to inform any interested parties, eg investor farmer and the likes who know nothing of fullbore but would like to know more about how it is run etc... its a suggestion Bananman take or leave it, lots of pistol & small bore rifle clubs have fullbore Deer stalkers or members who if given the chance might want to get involved and take this sport up. All the likes Pat and the DTSC can do is try to make this happen, its up to anyone interested to show support in what ever way they can if the DTSC say they cannot take this on by themselves can you think of any way they can?

cooperjeff9

Sparks wrote: »

6mmBR isn't the only round allowed by any means; it's just that, like rrpc said, noone has beaten it for accuracy at 300m yet. And worse still, noone's been able to beat lapua's factory loads either. So if you want to compete at world-class level, you shoot 6mmBR from the factory.
You're utterly wrong and being somewhat outrageously dismissive. Right now there are about four people who can train and compete on the international stage in 300m shooting. However, just because you need to be shooting 6mmBR from a fairly expensive rifle to win a world championships, does not mean you have to start off shooting 6mmBR from a Bleiker. You could start from a much cheaper round from a much cheaper rifle and learn the sport that way (.308 was the norm not too long ago), and then move on up if you find it's what you want to pursue. And by that point you might be receiving a carding grant to help with the costs. To say we don't need the facilities is rubbish - it's like saying we didn't need pistol ranges in '04 because we didn't have pistols yet.

And we currently have a lot more than that that can compete in Practical Pistol/Silhouette/Gallery/Target/Clay Pigeon/WA1500/PPC Internationally,so putting funds into ISSF 300m at this stage would be utterly wrong and we would progress the sport a lot more if we spent on existing disciplines that are being supported rather than a discipline which currently appears to have only about four shooters capable of taking part in International competition. I believe Hilltop had more than four competing in Lithuania last year and in Austria this year.

cooperjeff9

Sikamick wrote: »

I feel that all sections of the shooting should be supported and I think there is a definite need for a full bore ranges on the East Coast. We (DTSC) have three locations with one given 150 yds and 300+yds on the other two. The two sites with the longer range require involvement of more than one club to set it up. It would be nice to see a group of shooters/clubs that have an interest in long range shooting becoming involved in getting this going.

We have at least 10 people in our club that have or are in the process of purchasing rifles for F Class Shooting. Re cost one does not have to get into the 3000 or 4000 euro rifle especially for the three hundred yards also this sport is one of the areas of the shooting sports that definitely requires you to reload. It is very expensive to practice and compete with factory ammo.

Our club members have attended the Mid-Lands/NRAI ranges over that last couple of months and even though I don’t shoot these distances myself it is very interesting to watch.

I seriously hope that Pat Cooke (Hill Top) gets his full bore range up and running, people that have an interest in this type of shooting should support Pat in this venture and attend and use the range.

Full bore target shooting in Ireland will die unless people put any differences that they may have aside and support the sport.

The sport of full bore shooting needs more than one range, even though the Mid-Lands is an excellent facility, the NRAI will tell you for the sport to survive it has to become competitive and this will only happen when we have more ranges for people to practice on and be able to reload their ammo.

My feelings only, any comments.

Why not write to all the clubs/associations/NGB's and outline your ideas and see how many are willing to come on board?

Sparks

cooperjeff9 wrote: »

And we currently have a lot more than that that can compete in Practical Pistol/Silhouette/Gallery/Target/Clay Pigeon/WA1500/PPC Internationally,so putting funds into ISSF 300m at this stage would be utterly wrong

That's not a very sound argument jeff. Go by that approach and we'd never have seen money put into Silhouette, Gallery, WA1500, PPC or IPSC shooting because there was a larger established group of other competitive shooters in other disciplines when they started.
On top of which, you're assuming there's a single, solitary source of funding for the sport. It's not that kind of zero-sum game.

I believe Hilltop had more than four competing in Lithuania last year and in Austria this year.

I was of the impression the IPSA had, rather than hilltop.
However, if you're going to compare IPSA to ISSF (not a politically sensitive thing to be honest), then compare all the disciplines, not just one. Otherwise you won't get a valid comparison (though to be honest, I don't think you can have a valid comparison at all between the two).

rrpc

cooperjeff9 wrote: »

And we currently have a lot more than that that can compete in Practical Pistol/Silhouette/Gallery/Target/Clay Pigeon/WA1500/PPC Internationally,so putting funds into ISSF 300m at this stage would be utterly wrong and we would progress the sport a lot more if we spent on existing disciplines that are being supported rather than a discipline which currently appears to have only about four shooters capable of taking part in International competition. I believe Hilltop had more than four competing in Lithuania last year and in Austria this year.

I'm not sure what point you're getting at Jeff. It was I who said that 300m shooting for ISSF was not popular here and didn't at any stage espouse putting money into it, in fact I think it was you who suggested that.

I did say that the Hilltop range would be a great addition and would be one less obstacle in the path of someone who wanted to do 300m shooting of any kind.

Maybe more will take it up if a range is built, it's not as though it requires anything special in any case.

Gunter Mauser

With a switch barrel in .223 & 6mm BR you could afford to practice with more affordable ammo. All you need is the 300m range.









More about the rifle in the picture: Bleiker Swiss Rifles


Tack-Driving Dual-Action Rifles Built Like a Swiss Watch
In the hands of top European shooters, modern 300m rifles rival benchrest guns for pure accuracy. Germany and Switzerland produce most of the match-winning 300m rifles these days. Above, left is a 2" group shot at 300m, slinged prone with iron sights! On some of the 300m systems the stock is designed to interchange with rimfire actions, so it is possible to have one stock and two actions. This permits 300m competitors to train effectively year-round on 50m indoor rimfire ranges. The only difference is felt recoil and the size of the groups.

rrpc

Gunter Mauser wrote: »

With a switch barrel in .223 & 6mm BR you could afford to practice with more affordable ammo. All you need is the 300m range.

That's what the CISM lads do. Using the .22 barrel and action for 50m or less and also air rifle for the standing practice.

It's still expensive. The Bleiker can be up to six grand and throw in another barrel and action and you've another couple of grand there and a fifteen hundred quid air rifle for good measure.

Some cheap way alright

Gunter Mauser

What will a Sauer ISSF rifle set you back inc switch barrel option?

Bananaman

I believe Hilltop had more than four competing in Lithuania last year and in Austria this year.

I was of the impression the IPSA had, rather than hilltop.

I think the point he was trying to get across is that Hilltop have people representing the club in a wide range of sports.
Regardless of discpline or NGB in charge of it.

Just recently 5 lads from Hilltop took home more than 20 medals from Fermoy.

Hilltop members regularly win at Rathdrum in the ISSF stuff.

We have a number of guys competing n WA1500 who will no doubt bring home the bacon.

Last Year 6 people from Ireland went to the Lithuanian Practical Pistol Open - they were all from Hilltop. This July there are 18 going - so far. The majority of those are from Hilltop.

This Year we have had a number of people compete in Practical Pistol in Vienna and we have a number competing in the UK Open in June.
Ireland has yet to win it's first IPSC presidents medal. Here's hoping it can come to Hilltop.,

The list goes on.

B'Man

cooperjeff9

Sparks wrote: »

That's not a very sound argument jeff. Go by that approach and we'd never have seen money put into Silhouette, Gallery, WA1500, PPC or IPSC shooting because there was a larger established group of other competitive shooters in other disciplines when they started.
On top of which, you're assuming there's a single, solitary source of funding for the sport. It's not that kind of zero-sum game.

I was of the impression the IPSA had, rather than hilltop.
However, if you're going to compare IPSA to ISSF (not a politically sensitive thing to be honest), then compare all the disciplines, not just one. Otherwise you won't get a valid comparison (though to be honest, I don't think you can have a valid comparison at all between the two).

And you are assuming that I am making assumptions rather than stating facts. Also it would appear that your impression regarding IPSA is incorrect, the IPSA have never, to the best of my knowledge, sent any competitors to any competitions abroad. There may have been IPSA members competing abroad i.e. European Championships,Lithuania,Norway,Netherlands,Thailand, Northern Ireland etc. but I believe they were paying their own way and I think it was on a first come,first served basis rather than by qualifying in prior competitions. Where did I compare IPSA to ISSF? Incidentally ,if you are going to shorten my user name when replying, JC is much more acceptable to me or you can use cooperjeff9.

les45

In relation to the IPSC/IPSA members that competed in the Euro Handgun Championships the Association invited applications of interest from its members in January of 2007 , at that point in time we had approx 15 members that sent in their deposit cheques , we ended up with two teams shooting in Standard and Production , the lads paid for their flights , accomodation , ammo , match shirts . The IPSA paid the team entry fee for both squads . The first selection shoot for the European Handgun Championships will take place next September , as previously mentioned the IPSA is delighted that Nicholas Flood has agreed to assist in the selection and training regime for the National Squads for 2010 . On a personal note I wish Pat the best of luck with all future developments , as Nigel rightly said the Hilltop members just love to compete and they so with great success . As for Irish IPSC shooters competing abroad they have to a man represented their association , clubs and themselves with distinction . Both IPSC and the IPSA are here to stay .

John FitzGerald RD IPSA

www.ipscireland.org

rrpc

Bananaman wrote: »

Hilltop members regularly win at Rathdrum in the ISSF stuff.

He's a Rathdrum member now B'man

We're not short of winners that we have to rob them from Hilltop btw, a past member of Rathdrum was at the Atlanta Olympics and we've got boxes of medals from Bisley over the years.

We're hoping to take the National 25 yard in two weeks and have a very good chance for the team shield as well. The A team won Division 'D' in the Ulster Counties Winter League which is made up of shooters from the 32 counties, UK, Isle of Man etc. Almost 300 competitors take part every year.

Pistol's very new with us: only started really last summer, so give us a chance to catch up!

Sparks

Before this goes off horribly sideways, can I stick my hand up and say I think I'm after misreading JC? Reading back over the thread, I believe I'm after thinking he was talking about 300m ISSF ranges on a national level, and I now think he was actually talking about the specific range in Hilltop. If so, my bad.

Sikamick

Quote=Sikamick: I feel that all sections of the shooting should be supported and I think there is a definite need for a full bore ranges on the East Coast. We (DTSC) have three locations with one given 150 yds and 300+yds on the other two. The two sites with the longer range require involvement of more than one club to set it up. It would be nice to see a group of shooters/clubs that have an interest in long range shooting becoming involved in getting this going.

---

No disrespect to any posters/users on this thread, I would like to clarify what stated above.

We have on site at our range 150 yds that can be developed for full bore shooting without much problem. To set up 300+ and when I say + there is possible 1000 yds on either of these sites.

I am irrelevant in this offer but simply the messenger.

My involvement in DTSC is totally voluntary as is with most people in our sport, I get no payment for work done and don’t want it either.

Now to the most important part of what is stated in the offer of the above sites, it is most certainly not to try and take from Pat Cook’s intention to build a 300 yd range or to try to take people on the East Cost away from the Mid-lands nor should it to be money making racket. It should be a joint venture among east cost clubs to help shooters develop their skills to compete in inter club, National and International competitions.

Ranges are needed to expand the sport and create competition within the full bore disciplines all and any of those that have been discussed on this thread, none of which will happen unless we have (Ranges) to allow the sport to grow and be competitive.

I’m not trying to tell or dictate to any of the NGB’S / clubs, I am making an offer to all that have a true interest in developing the sport of full bore shooting. I will have no personnel involvement in this but our members that want to shoot long range will have.

Someone stated on this thread that ranges are owned by land owners or range management and they are the ones that put everything in place first and then the facility is opened to the shooter, not so with our club, the land owner is on our committee and club members do the work and run and manage the range.

It is about time that the personalities and disagreements are forgotten and all of us get together to support all types of shooting and this includes IPSA disciplines, which I don't do myself but feel it should be supported.

Sikamick

Qoute=Bananaman : I think the point he was trying to get across is that Hilltop have people representing the club in a wide range of sports.
Regardless of discpline or NGB in charge of it.

---

And why do the people from Hill Top do so well in competitions, Instruction, Training, Practise, all because Pat Cook makes the facility available through the week and this is why we need as many full bore ranges as possible if we want to see our members win medals in Full Bore Competitions.

Sikamick

Sikamick wrote: »

rrpc wrote: »

He's a Rathdrum member now B'man

---

Actually two of the Fermoy Medal winners are members of DTSC but to get the training, practice and involvement in competition joined, Rathdrum and Hill Top and whether or not they renew their memberships with us is really irrelevant, what is, is that they are competing and winning medals.

expressway

As a member up in Hilltop this is great news

Excellent club with loads of helpful members

In unrelated news, I got my .22lr license notification in the post today, so at long last I'll be able to bring up my own firearm to the benchrest - can't wait.

When I get half proficient, and the range hopefully gets built, I look forward to having a stab at the 100M range

Gunter Mauser

Quote Sikamick: It should be a joint venture among east cost clubs to help shooters develop their skills to compete in inter club, National and International competitions.

Ranges are needed to expand the sport and create competition within the full bore disciplines all and any of those that have been discussed on this thread, none of which will happen unless we have (Ranges) to allow the sport to grow and be competitive.
.................................................
How do you get this sort of corporation of clubs coming togeather to
develop fullbore in this country along with bringing in new people. Do you not have too much rivalry for this sort of thing to happen here or fractured groups that dont care what others have in mind even if it makes
sense.?

Sparks

There's nothing really wrong with a bit of inter-club rivalry GM, so long as it doesn't get nasty. The UCD-TCD shoot that's been running every year for nearly 20 years now has always driven a lot of training and shooting in both clubs and ultimately been a very good thing for both.

IRLConor

Sparks wrote: »

The UCD-TCD shoot that's been running every year for nearly 20 years now has always driven a lot of training and shooting in both clubs and ultimately been a very good thing for both.

Except for UCD, cos they keep losing.

Sparks

I seem to remember them winning last year
Plus, when I started shooting, they kicked our asses regularly (well, having two of the three best air rifle shooters in the country shooting in there at the time probably helped a lot )

rrpc

Gunter Mauser wrote: »

How do you get this sort of corporation of clubs coming togeather to
develop fullbore in this country along with bringing in new people. Do you not have too much rivalry for this sort of thing to happen here or fractured groups that dont care what others have in mind even if it makes
sense.?

I don't believe so GM. The more people involved in the sport, the more there are to support your sport and your club. Each new club opening brings new shooters in which adds to competition entries and improves competitiveness.

The bigger the base the higher the summit