Hilltop applying for planning for three new ranges

It wasn't me!

I'd love to give it a go. Just need to learn to shoot first.

IRLConor

cooperjeff9 wrote: »

Yes, people to actively compete at 300m:D

I think the DFST guys do it. At least I think they did it for the CISM games.

rrpc

IRLConor wrote: »

I think the DFST guys do it. At least I think they did it for the CISM games.

Yes indeedy. They train in Midlands at the moment. It's a very expensive discipline, the rifles alone can cost up to €6,000 and the ammo aint cheap either.

Then of course there's the available ranges problem....

Gunter Mauser

rrpc wrote: »

Yes indeedy. They train in Midlands at the moment. It's a very expensive discipline, the rifles alone can cost up to €6,000 and the ammo aint cheap either.

Then of course there's the available ranges problem....

rrpc: you are correct, if not enough fullbore ranges (300m+) are available in this Country you can have the firearm, have the ammo but with no
range, its the case of being all set up with no place to go.:(

Best of luck to Pat and to Hilltop Club!

And +1 to B'Man's comments...

It wasn't me!

rrpc wrote: »

Yes indeedy. They train in Midlands at the moment. It's a very expensive discipline, the rifles alone can cost up to €6,000 and the ammo aint cheap either.

Then of course there's the available ranges problem....

Eh, right, I'll wait until RRPC gets a club gun for it so.


Do make sure to get a lefty one for me please!

Sparks

IWM, when RRPC said the ammo was expensive, what he meant was that it's around two euro per shot. The match is sixty shots (120 if you're doing 3-P). And you'll need sighters.

Like he said, very expensive!

cooperjeff9

Sparks wrote: »

IWM, when RRPC said the ammo was expensive, what he meant was that it's around two euro per shot. The match is sixty shots (120 if you're doing 3-P). And you'll need sighters.

Like he said, very expensive!

For people who are serious about competing,cost is not an issue. Apparently there are not too many shooters interested in ISSF 300 metre shooting so availability of ranges is not really an issue as there is not a bunch of people waiting in the wings to practice at these facilities anyway.

rrpc

cooperjeff9 wrote: »

For people who are serious about competing,cost is not an issue. Apparently there are not too many shooters interested in ISSF 300 metre shooting so availability of ranges is not really an issue as there is not a bunch of people waiting in the wings to practice at these facilities anyway.

The operative word there Jeff is competing. Outside of CISM, there are very few 300m matches held under ISSF rules. I think (but could be open to correction) that the last one was held in Spain a couple of years ago for the European Championships.

There is absolutely nothing for 300m to be held this year at all bar the CISM in Sweden in September.

So the ranges problem is a universal one it seems.

cooperjeff9

rrpc wrote: »

The operative word there Jeff is competing. Outside of CISM, there are very few 300m matches held under ISSF rules. I think (but could be open to correction) that the last one was held in Sain a couple of years ago for the European Championships.

There is absolutely nothing for 300m to be held this year at all bar the CISM in Sweden in September.

So the ranges problem is a universal one it seems.

It seems to me that the natural progression for air rifle and air pistol shooters is .22 target and then 300m ISSF, perhaps the NGB's need to do a little more to encourage their people to move up to 300m.

rrpc

cooperjeff9 wrote: »

It seems to me that the natural progression for air rifle and air pistol shooters is .22 target and then 300m ISSF, perhaps the NGB's need to do a little more to encourage their people to move up to 300m.

Like what Jeff, buy rifles for them?

Consider that fullbore target shooting is only relatively new, that there is three positional shooting for .22 and that there is no international competition for you to set as a goal including the fact that it hasn't been an Olympic sport since the 70's and you've an uphill struggle persuading anyone that they should spend a few grand on a rifle and another few grand a year on ammo.

Unless of course you're in the Army and have CISM as a goal, which funny enough is what's happening.

What's the selling point?

Sparks

cooperjeff9 wrote: »

For people who are serious about competing, cost is not an issue.

Wow, that's an insulting thing to post. Most of us haven't won our lotto yet there Jeff (you're looking at ammo costs of about €20k per annum to seriously train in ISSF 300m). And quite a few ISSF shooters don't "progress" from air to .22 to 300m, the same way most rugby players don't progress from rugby to soccer to GAA.

It wasn't me!

Is 6mm BR Norma the only round allowed? Are other 6mm rounds allowed?

Rovi

Sparks wrote:

IWM, when RRPC said the ammo was expensive, what he meant was that it's around two euro per shot. The match is sixty shots (120 if you're doing 3-P). And you'll need sighters.

Like he said, very expensive!

Yet another valid reason (in my opinion) for reloading; not to mention that I presume that everyone else playing the game is reloading for consistency and accuracy as a matter of routine anyway?

Sparks wrote:

you're looking at ammo costs of about €20k per annum to seriously train in ISSF 300m

At €2/round for shop bought ammo, are the top people really firing 10,000 round/annum at this game? :eek:
What's that, going through two or three barrels a year? That's nuts!
Seriously, are the top shooters getting shed loads of sponsorship, or is this pretty much a sport for the well heeled, like yacht racing?

IRLConor

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Is 6mm BR Norma the only round allowed? Are other 6mm rounds allowed?

Anything <= 8 mm.

ISSF Rules wrote:

Ammunition of any description that may be fired without any danger to shooters or range personnel. Tracer, armor piercing, and incendiary ammunition is prohibited.

It wasn't me!

Reloaded .243 or .308 would be a lot cheaper to run then. Phew!

IRLConor

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Reloaded .243 or .308 would be a lot cheaper to run then. Phew!

Well Bleiker make ISSF 300m rifles in 7.5x55 Swiss, 6mm BR, .308 and 6x47 Swiss Match. Tanner also make ISSF 300m rifles in those calibres. Grünig + Elmiger make rifles in those calibres plus 6XC, .243, 6.5x47 Lapua, 6.5x55 and 7mm Remington.

Going by that, I suspect that .308 would be one of your best bets for 300m ISSF on a budget. It would give good flexibility in choice of rifle and a decent chance at getting ammunition at a reasonable price too.

rrpc

IRLConor wrote: »

Well Bleiker make ISSF 300m rifles in 7.5x55 Swiss, 6mm BR, .308 and 6x47 Swiss Match. Tanner also make ISSF 300m rifles in those calibres. Grünig + Elmiger make rifles in those calibres plus 6XC, .243, 6.5x47 Lapua, 6.5x55 and 7mm Remington.

Going by that, I suspect that .308 would be one of your best bets for 300m ISSF on a budget. It would give good flexibility in choice of rifle and a decent chance at getting ammunition at a reasonable price too.

Except that absolutely nothing can beat the BR for accuracy. Many have tried, all have failed.

Oh, and I stand corrected on competitions, the European Cup is running this year in Italy and although not an ISSF competition it's for the ISSF 300m disciplines.

cooperjeff9

rrpc wrote: »

Like what Jeff, buy rifles for them?

Consider that fullbore target shooting is only relatively new, that there is three positional shooting for .22 and that there is no international competition for you to set as a goal including the fact that it hasn't been an Olympic sport since the 70's and you've an uphill struggle persuading anyone that they should spend a few grand on a rifle and another few grand a year on ammo.

Unless of course you're in the Army and have CISM as a goal, which funny enough is what's happening.

What's the selling point?

So it seems that both yourself and Sparks are in agreement, there is no requirement for a 300m range for ISSF shooting as there are major financial barriers to people who may have considered this discipline, perhaps people should consider other options and disciplines to shoot at 300m and forget about ISSF 300m as it is a non-runner. Maybe the NGB's could look at other competitions to be held at 300m.

Sikamick

I feel that all sections of the shooting should be supported and I think there is a definite need for a full bore ranges on the East Coast. We (DTSC) have three locations with one given 150 yds and 300+yds on the other two. The two sites with the longer range require involvement of more than one club to set it up. It would be nice to see a group of shooters/clubs that have an interest in long range shooting becoming involved in getting this going.

We have at least 10 people in our club that have or are in the process of purchasing rifles for F Class Shooting. Re cost one does not have to get into the 3000 or 4000 euro rifle especially for the three hundred yards also this sport is one of the areas of the shooting sports that definitely requires you to reload. It is very expensive to practice and compete with factory ammo.

Our club members have attended the Mid-Lands/NRAI ranges over that last couple of months and even though I don’t shoot these distances myself it is very interesting to watch.

I seriously hope that Pat Cooke (Hill Top) gets his full bore range up and running, people that have an interest in this type of shooting should support Pat in this venture and attend and use the range.

Full bore target shooting in Ireland will die unless people put any differences that they may have aside and support the sport.

The sport of full bore shooting needs more than one range, even though the Mid-Lands is an excellent facility, the NRAI will tell you for the sport to survive it has to become competitive and this will only happen when we have more ranges for people to practice on and be able to reload their ammo.

My feelings only, any comments.

Sikamick

IRLConor wrote: »

Going by that, I suspect that .308 would be one of your best bets for 300m ISSF on a budget. It would give good flexibility in choice of rifle and a decent chance at getting ammunition at a reasonable price too.

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Your right Conor any queries I have made on behalf of our members seem to say, if your going to use factory ammo .223 or .308 would be the best way to go. I have been told that if a group of Full bore target shooters bulk buy in these calibers there is a very big saving.

rrpc

cooperjeff9 wrote: »

So it seems that both yourself and Sparks are in agreement, there is no requirement for a 300m range for ISSF shooting as there are major financial barriers to people who may have considered this discipline, perhaps people should consider other options and disciplines to shoot at 300m and forget about ISSF 300m as it is a non-runner. Maybe the NGB's could look at other competitions to be held at 300m.

There's no pressing requirement Jeff. If Hilltop get a 300m range up and running and if we can get a couple more people interested then I don't see why the NTSA can't run a competition for it.

The majority of our shooters are on the east coast, so it'd be helpful to have a range there. At the end of the day we can't tell people what to do, but we can support them if they want to do it. Having a nearby range would certainly help.

Sikamick

rrpc wrote: »

.

The majority of our shooters are on the east coast, so it'd be helpful to have a range there. At the end of the day we can't tell people what to do, but we can support them if they want to do it. Having a nearby range would certainly help.

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rrpc would you or any of your people that want to get into full bore shooting come and look at the sites we have and get involved in getting one going.

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

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rrpc would you or any of your people that want to get into full bore shooting come and look at the sites we have and get involved in getting one going.

At the moment, as far as I know all the lads shooting fullbore are closer to Midlands than the east coast and are shooting there.

But there would be no harm in having a look. Problem is getting the time: the next two weeks are entirely taken up with national championships, but after that...

Sikamick

rrpc wrote: »

At the moment, as far as I know all the lads shooting fullbore are closer to Midlands than the east coast and are shooting there.

But there would be no harm in having a look. Problem is getting the time: the next two weeks are entirely taken up with national championships, but after that...

rrpc Thanks for the reply, the offer stands open to you or any clubs/members that would like to get involved.

Bananaman

there is no requirement for a 300m range for ISSF shooting as there are major financial barriers to people who may have considered this discipline

Except that absolutely nothing can beat the BR for accuracy

(Before I begin I will say I haven't a clue)

Sounds to me like the BR is beyond the pocket of most people and would be an exorbitant outlay to "learn" the discipline. The ammo costs outlined above are also quite shocking.

To promote the sport you could simply have People kick off with their deer rifle or similar and if they found that they were consistently top of the grade in the country could then decide whether they wished to progress and buy the tools to compete abroad.

Can the F-Class guys not compete in tn ISSF 300m? More medals for fishing weights ?

There's no reason why you cannot have a perfectly healthy degree of competition among people who neither have the inclination nor the intention of competing at anything but a local or national level.

Agreed reloading would be a pre-requisite to competing in any serious way and would help keep the costs reasonable if simply competing on a local level but it's not there so any intention of competing in this must be with factory ammo for now. If, and when, reloading does come in, you simply get more bang for your buck.

As with most shooting sports it is the inter-club scene that really creates interest and growth so if NTSA want to see ISSF 300m competitions I would suggest they contact the various clubs - through SSAI, NASRPC, Farmers journal, whatever - to judge the potential interest and perhaps set up an introductory day where they get reps from interested clubs, outline the rules of the competition and have a shoot. The reps can bring it back to the clubs and pass on the info. Schedule a couple of competition at the few ranges that can do it and hey presto you have just kicked off a grade of competition.

If the ranges cannot meet the o l y m p i c required standard - who cares - as long as the RO(s) and match director ensures that nobody has any advantage and everyone does it safely.

B'Man

Sparks

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Is 6mm BR Norma the only round allowed? Are other 6mm rounds allowed?

6mmBR isn't the only round allowed by any means; it's just that, like rrpc said, noone has beaten it for accuracy at 300m yet. And worse still, noone's been able to beat lapua's factory loads either. So if you want to compete at world-class level, you shoot 6mmBR from the factory.

cooperjeff9 wrote: »

So it seems that both yourself and Sparks are in agreement, there is no requirement for a 300m range for ISSF shooting as there are major financial barriers to people who may have considered this discipline

You're utterly wrong and being somewhat outrageously dismissive. Right now there are about four people who can train and compete on the international stage in 300m shooting. However, just because you need to be shooting 6mmBR from a fairly expensive rifle to win a world championships, does not mean you have to start off shooting 6mmBR from a Bleiker. You could start from a much cheaper round from a much cheaper rifle and learn the sport that way (.308 was the norm not too long ago), and then move on up if you find it's what you want to pursue. And by that point you might be receiving a carding grant to help with the costs. To say we don't need the facilities is rubbish - it's like saying we didn't need pistol ranges in '04 because we didn't have pistols yet.

It wasn't me!

I'd be interested in getting a centrefire at some point in the next couple of years, something like a .25-06, to do all jobs pretty well. Especially if it could be reloaded, I assume something like that would stand up decently? It'll outshoot me anyway, so it would be fine to learn on?

IRLConor

It wasn't me! wrote: »

I'd be interested in getting a centrefire at some point in the next couple of years, something like a .25-06, to do all jobs pretty well. Especially if it could be reloaded, I assume something like that would stand up decently? It'll outshoot me anyway, so it would be fine to learn on?

I don't know about using it for 300m, other shooters here would have better info on it.

If you're interested in ending up doing ISSF 300m then one of the best things to practice with is the 50m 3P competition. From what I can see it's a scaled down version of the 300m event.

Sparks

If it'll reach 300m, most anything will do for the free rifle class (for standard rifle 300m stuff, the stock has to fit certain dimensions - the same ones as for air rifle, so think of putting your 25-06 action into a 603 stock ).