[PR] Eflow.ie - information on M50 tolling regime

It raises the question again; as to whether there should have been a booth installed offline ( beside the motorway) to allow for the occasional user & tourists to pay there and then so as to not have to worry about finding alternative ways to pay.

markpb

I'd imagine it would be dangerous having stopped traffic on a motorway, even if it's only one lane to the side.

emmagean

Deleted User wrote: »

It raises the question again; as to whether there should have been a booth installed offline ( beside the motorway) to allow for the occasional user & tourists to pay there and then so as to not have to worry about finding alternative ways to pay.

yeah I was thinking about that but I wonder did they have to do an all or nothing with this change. Its possible that if you had a 'coin booth' available, it would discourage people from registering for a tag or video etc. Until that is they got fed up with the 2 mile queue to that booth!

markpb

markpb wrote: »

I'd imagine it would be dangerous having stopped traffic on a motorway, even if it's only one lane to the side.

That's why I said "offline" i.e. a slip road to a pitstop, then back on again.

TheNog

There is two issues that spring to my mind with the e-toll.

1/ The only way to track down drivers failing to pay will be through the National Vehicle Database File which has the owner and address. The thing is this database while current for most vehicles in the state due to people owning their own homes, but it is not current for vehicles who are not taxed, sold to a garage or private buyer, migrant workers (foreign and our own) and in general the owners not being forced to keep the vehicles details up to date.
In the UK their database is kept up to date with all vehicles such as those off the road and those being sold on. In our country we have people who sell their cars to garages and they give the dealer the log book. The dealer keeps the logbook till someone buys the car and then they send it off with the new owners details. Coming into a recession now dealers are not going to sell as many cars so they will sit on the court for weeks or months.

2/ Why if the toll was €2 at the toll bridge collecting say from 80,000 cars a day, is the toll to remain at €2 when it will catch say 160,000 across the whole M50 each day. Why hasn't the toll price come down? I realise the cost of the ANPR ran into the millions but surely it will pay for itself over a number of years. And for the HGVs why can't they pay the same as cars? They are afterall being forced to use the M50 by the Government.

Skyhater

Bluetonic wrote: »

Seems a bit silly he would mention it so if it wasn't relevant to his point.

I didn't mean jamegg point wasn't relivant.... of course it is.... he'd have to leave the Motorway/HQDC (ie M1/N1) to pay his toll.

I meant your point that the motorway (ie the M1) doesn't go to the border was not relevant to this topic. It's still HQDC all the way!!

Capt'n Midnight

TheNog wrote: »

2/ Why if the toll was €2 at the toll bridge collecting say from 80,000 cars a day, is the toll to remain at €2 when it will catch say 160,000 across the whole M50 each day. Why hasn't the toll price come down? I realise the cost of the ANPR ran into the millions but surely it will pay for itself over a number of years.

more like 10's of millions, per year http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/1212/breaking40.htm "NRA figures envisage a set-up cost of €13 million and an ongoing operating cost of €25 million annually, based on 2008 prices. This would mean that of the €80 million collected in revenue each year over 30 per cent would disappear in costs. This is scandalously wasteful," said AA public affairs manager Conor Faughnan.Is that in addition to the managment / tag fees ? - and remember te old toll used to cover the cost of collection

And for the HGVs why can't they pay the same as cars? They are afterall being forced to use the M50 by the Government.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2008/0813/1218477437745.html - business customers will be paying 21% extra before the new management fee because they won't be able to claim back the VAT anymore. And the price was rounded up when VAT was added and when the euro came in.

L1011

TheNog wrote: »

2/ Why if the toll was €2 at the toll bridge collecting say from 80,000 cars a day, is the toll to remain at €2 when it will catch say 160,000 across the whole M50 each day. Why hasn't the toll price come down? I realise the cost of the ANPR ran into the millions but surely it will pay for itself over a number of years. And for the HGVs why can't they pay the same as cars? They are afterall being forced to use the M50 by the Government.

Only the existing bridge is being tolled!!

Tarabuses

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2008/0813/1218477437745.html - business customers will be paying 21% extra before the new management fee because they won't be able to claim back the VAT anymore. And the price was rounded up when VAT was added and when the euro came in.

This is scandelous. NRA will not be paying over VAT on the tolls and, therefore, keep the entire proceeds be it €2, €2.50 or €3. The previous operators only kept €1.65 (the net of VAT amount) from the €2.

Effectively everyone, including those with tags, is now paying more even if the admin fee is ignored.

ga2re2t

Tarabuses wrote: »

This is scandelous. NRA will not be paying over VAT on the tolls and, therefore, keep the entire proceeds be it €2, €2.50 or €3. The previous operators only kept €1.65 (the net of VAT amount) from the €2.

Well, technically it's the public that won't be paying VAT. If they charged VAT then you can be sure that there would be an equivalent uproar because of "double-taxation", i.e. Toll "tax" to a government body + VAT.

What I want to see is a pie chart showing where the money is going:
- how much goes to operation costs (a figure of 30% was mentioned above)
- how much goes to the repayments for buying the Toll Bridge from NTR.
- how much is going into the coffers of NRA and then a break down of where that money goes. Preferably any extra cash will go into the continued upgrade and maintenance of the M50?

Tarabuses

ga2re2t wrote: »

Well, technically it's the public that won't be paying VAT. If they charged VAT then you can be sure that there would be an equivalent uproar because of "double-taxation", i.e. Toll "tax" to a government body + VAT.

What I want to see is a pie chart showing where the money is going:
- how much goes to operation costs (a figure of 30% was mentioned above)
- how much goes to the repayments for buying the Toll Bridge from NTR.
- how much is going into the coffers of NRA and then a break down of where that money goes. Preferably any extra cash will go into the continued upgrade and maintenance of the M50?

No, the government IS receiving Toll + VAT since they pocket the full amount. It is, as you say, double taxation.

bikki

Im not against the tolling, but it should be tolled the same way the seven bridge is tolled in the UK. Its only tolled in one direction, which would make sense because if ur going over it ur more than likely gonna be coming back as well.

On a other note i still haven't got my eflow tag or received any mail from them. Even though i registered my gf's car at the same time she has received emails and letters (no tag though), i checked my account and it says its on order?

AlekSmart

And just to rub salt in the Free State motorists wounded wallets we learn today via the Irish Independent that the NRA`s E-Flow gang have decided to locate their call-centre across the land frontier in Newry !!

No doubt part of the "Set-Up" costs.....a hugely appropriate description,will have gone towards buying off the 120 Toll Bridge staff as these could have been a hugely unprofitable resource for any of the bright shiny new cutting-edge collection companies

Yes indeed,with every passing day and in every way this is just coming together as the Irish S C A M of the century....wellllll Ok OK then I`ll reluctantly include the National Lottery Kerry Millionaire draw in that too....hmmmmm Maybe there`s a connection ???? :eek:

Our man in Havana

Looks like there will be no independent appeals process. This is bound to end in tears for the NRA when some innocent motorist sues NTR.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0829/1219875241810.html

Appeals system for toll disputes outlined

PAUL CULLEN, Consumer Affairs Correspondent

MOTORISTS WHO dispute tolls levied under the new barrier-free tolling system on the M50 will have no recourse to an independent appeals procedure, the National Roads Authority (NRA) has confirmed.

The existing toll barriers on the West-Link bridge of the M50 will be raised tonight after midnight after 18 years in operation. The change to largely electronic means of collecting the toll is expected to be accompanied by widespread confusion, and even the NRA has forecast teething problems after the switch to barrier-free tolling.

The authority says there has been a last-minute rush by motorists to apply for electronic tags or register their numberplates, its two preferred tolling options. Some 100,000 drivers have registered with the new eFlow tolling system.

However, many thousands more are expected to not register and instead use a pay-as-you-go option, where the toll must be paid by 8pm the following day.

Asked yesterday what motorists disputing a toll should do, an NRA spokesman said they should contact the eFlow call centre. If the issue is not resolved, responsibility passes to the customer care team in BetEire Flow, the French consortium operating the M50 tolling on behalf of the NRA.

The spokesman continued: "Should the motorist wish to dispute the transaction/toll notice further, BetEire Flow will refer the matter to senior personnel in the NRA who will review the case in detail and liaise directly with the customer."

He said the clock would not stop where motorists made complaints as this would present "an unworkable scenario that could be used to frustrate the arrangements". Motorists face fines of up to €146 where tolls are not paid.

Meanwhile, it has emerged the State has already begun collecting tolls on the M50. Ownership of the West-Link bridge passed from the privately owned National Toll Roads to the NRA on the last day of July, NTR has confirmed. Since then, NTR has continued to collect tolls at the West-Link toll plaza on behalf of the State authority.

NTR also confirmed 120 staff will be made redundant when the barriers are lifted tonight. A spokesman said this was regrettable but "unavoidable in the circumstances".

"As soon as the State announced its intention to purchase the bridge, the company immediately engaged with the employees in negotiating a generous redundancy package that reflected their long years of service." The spokesman declined to specify the terms of the package but one worker said they were paid 10 weeks' salary for every year of service.

Research published yesterday shows traffic speeds falling as low as 4km/h at the existing toll plaza. Under current barrier tolling arrangements, travelling south from the Finglas exit to the Naas Road exit on the M50 takes five minutes less than the same journey northwards.

Software company Mapflow has used a number of probe vehicles using GPS technology on the M50 this month to measure average journey times on the motorway and identify congestion points.

It intends to continue measuring journey times in September to see what difference barrier-free tolling makes.

According to its research, it takes an average of 17.5 minutes to travel between the two junctions; 15 minutes travelling south and 20 minutes travelling north. However, on the slowest weekday, last August 12th, it took all of 54 minutes to make the 11km trip south.

There was some good news for the NRA yesterday when hauliers decided to call off their threat of a campaign of "civil disobedience" in protest at barrier-free tolling.

The Irish Road Haulage Association (IRHA) decided at a board meeting not to take any action for the immediate future.

The IRHA said its members were still angry at the toll and the removal of discounts of up to 15 per cent available under current arrangements.

However, it decided not to take action because of the operational difficulties in trying to avoid payment of the toll.

© 2008 The Irish Times

bigpinkelephant

I will be going through the toll (or now lack of it) tomorrow and I said I would go onto eFlow.ie and get an account set up. I chose the video one as there is no monthly fee and it saves me having to remember to pay later. There was options for if you wanted correpondance via email or via mail. I chose email, assuming they would send me an email to activate my account (like any other website) and bob's your uncle, I can go through the toll tomorrow and have it taken off my Laser after. However when I pressed "register" it said I would receive a mail, with details on how to activate my account!!! WTF? I picked "email" so it will be quicker- in this day and age why are they using regular mail when it is so much easier to send me the details online and I have stated that this is how I want my correspondance?

What happens when I go through the toll tomorrow- will I have to pay before 8pm the next day, or will it be backdated onto my video account when it is activated?

mackerski

bikki wrote: »

Im not against the tolling, but it should be tolled the same way the seven bridge is tolled in the UK. Its only tolled in one direction, which would make sense because if ur going over it ur more than likely gonna be coming back as well.

It's not that simple. Avoiding the M50 in the charging direction will put you a little out of your way. But if you don't want to pay for the Severn crossing it will cost you a detour towards Gloucester and the guts of 1.5 hours. We already know that people choose to avoid the M50 toll, proving that it's not considered a necessary evil as the Severn crossing is.

getz

i will be coming off the ferry about 6am to drive down to south wicklow on holiday i can not see how i will be able to get a toll tag at that time in the morning i got in touch with eflow to say i will be on holiday and i have a uk reg no plate i was told every one has to pay . so its looks as if i will have to make sure my sat nav is up to date hope they dont move the toll barriers from before feb next year

L1011

You don't *need* a toll tag - you can pay in shops or by phone like the London congestion charge.

anotherlostie

getz wrote: »

i will be coming off the ferry about 6am to drive down to south wicklow on holiday i can not see how i will be able to get a toll tag at that time in the morning i got in touch with eflow to say i will be on holiday and i have a uk reg no plate i was told every one has to pay . so its looks as if i will have to make sure my sat nav is up to date hope they dont move the toll barriers from before feb next year

If you have a UK reg car then they have no way to trace you as it is the Irish database that they have. So NI, UK and other foreign cars get a free ride now.

ardmacha

If you have a UK reg car then they have no way to trace you as it is the Irish database that they have.

People keep posting this kind of thing :mad:. As noted elsewhere there are inter EU arrangements so they can trace you if you are from anywhere in the EU. Of course they may not bother if you just pass along once or twice, but I'd say they will if a number pops up with any regularity.

getz

last feb i got a parking ticket in kilkenny on it it said ;no need to do anything they will get in touch with me waiting waiting may be i will be arrested when i come back off the boat

MercMad

I cant believe the truckers called off their protest !

Jeeeez I knew Irish motorists were a bunch of pu55ies but I thought the truckers had guts and could have made a difference !!

I still have a deep lack of trust and a great misunderstanding of the whole VAT issue. I dont see how they could suddenly apply it a few years back and now charge it at 0%. Could somone enlighten me please.

Either way as far as the M50 goes, I wont be using it. Thankfully I rarely have to, maybe twice/three times monthly, so I'll leave earlier and avoid it. If I do end up using it I wont be pre-paying/registering or any of that cr4p, I'll take my chances and if I get a €146 fine I'll make sure I get some satisfaction from stringing them out as long as I can !

Either that or i'll just have the revolving number plates fitted with my UK personalised plate F112 NRA " FU2NRA"

Stark

MercMad wrote:

I'll take my chances and if I get a €146 fine I'll make sure I get some satisfaction from stringing them out as long as I can !

I'm sure a return of €146 for sending out a few letters will take the sting out of it for them.

L1011

MercMad wrote: »

I still have a deep lack of trust and a great misunderstanding of the whole VAT issue. I dont see how they could suddenly apply it a few years back and now charge it at 0%. Could somone enlighten me please.

The state doesn't charge VAT on its services (it'd be pointless in admin terms - all the cash goes to the one source).

NTR operated the toll when VAT was added - by EU orders. NTR != the state.

amacachi

MercMad wrote: »

I cant believe the truckers called off their protest !

Jeeeez I knew Irish motorists were a bunch of pu55ies but I thought the truckers had guts and could have made a difference !!

I still have a deep lack of trust and a great misunderstanding of the whole VAT issue. I dont see how they could suddenly apply it a few years back and now charge it at 0%. Could somone enlighten me please.

Either way as far as the M50 goes, I wont be using it. Thankfully I rarely have to, maybe twice/three times monthly, so I'll leave earlier and avoid it. If I do end up using it I wont be pre-paying/registering or any of that cr4p, I'll take my chances and if I get a €146 fine I'll make sure I get some satisfaction from stringing them out as long as I can !

Either that or i'll just have the revolving number plates fitted with my UK personalised plate F112 NRA " FU2NRA"

You are hilarious.

ga2re2t

Bond-007 wrote: »

Looks like there will be no independent appeals process. This is bound to end in tears for the NRA when some innocent motorist sues NTR.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0829/1219875241810.html

Asked yesterday what motorists disputing a toll should do, an NRA spokesman said they should contact the eFlow call centre. If the issue is not resolved, responsibility passes to the customer care team in BetEire Flow, the French consortium operating the M50 tolling on behalf of the NRA

Interesting, I wonder is this in response to this thread? I actually sent them an e-mail yesterday, mentionning specifically this thread and the concerns of some users.

Our man in Havana

ardmacha wrote: »

People keep posting this kind of thing :mad:. As noted elsewhere there are inter EU arrangements so they can trace you if you are from anywhere in the EU. Of course they may not bother if you just pass along once or twice, but I'd say they will if a number pops up with any regularity.

Can you quote these regulations.

All there might be is a few shady debt collectors in europe with a mate that can access the VRO of whatever country they need.

anotherlostie

After being bitchslapped, I checked the eflow website and here is what it says about foreign reg vehicles.

How do you manage foreign vehicles?

Foreign-registered vehicles using the M50 are subject to the same rules as Irish-registered vehicles.

For all motorists using the M50, whether registered or unregistered, national or foreign, the non-payment of tolls is an offence under the legislation. The National Roads Authority has therefore established a rigorous enforcement policy implemented through a trans-European enforcement agency to assist in the recovery of unpaid toll charges and fines and the prosecution of all toll evaders of Irish or foreign registered vehicles.

The onus is also on foreign motorists arriving in any country to be aware of bye-laws and rules of the road. Information is also available through motoring organisations, car hire companies and tourist bodies here and abroad.

http://eflow.ie/faq/index.htm#10

I just wonder who this trans-European agency is, and why the same doesn't apply to speeding motorists?

L1011

I would suspect its a private debt collection firm...

superhooper

anotherlostie wrote: »

After being bitchslapped, I checked the eflow website and here is what it says about foreign reg vehicles.



http://eflow.ie/faq/index.htm#10

I just wonder who this trans-European agency is, and why the same doesn't apply to speeding motorists?

I think the NRA are telling Porkys!!!!!!!!11
See this article where EU transport commissioner was calling for such a system in March. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7305058.stm