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MA: Fighting Multiple Opponents

  • 07-04-2008 10:20AM
    #1
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,769 CMod ✭✭✭✭


    How many of you seriously train to fight more than one opponent at a time? If so, what percentage of your training is dedicated to multiple opponent fighting (in an average month)?

    I've been in TKD for a decade (If you count the time when I was just a kid). Except during poomse (forms), or breaking, or SD routines (mostly learned for grading), we really didn't seriously deal with multiple opponent fighting.

    About two years ago I began Japanese sword, mostly focused on the four basic moves of Iaijutsu using daito (long sword): nukitsuke (draw), kirioroshi (cut), chiburi (clean), and noto (resheath). Once again, our emphasis was on single combat.

    My master has just introduced multiple opponent fighting, combining Iaijutsu with his unique version of Muso Shinden Ryu (sword fighting with more moves than Iaijutsu). In addition to cuts, we also use full contact kicks, finally making my training in TKD useful; i.e., you might cut one opponent, while kicking another (often back kick or side thrust), when both are closing. About half of our training time (3 days a week), will now include multiple opponent combat.

    If you frequently train to fight multiple opponents, I thought it might be interesting to share on the SD&MA forum a few examples of how you train (like my cut and kick)? Comments?

    In an average month, percentage of training dedicated to multiple combat? 28 votes

    0% (or not serious about it)
    0% 0 votes
    1 to 20%
    64% 18 votes
    21 to 40%
    28% 8 votes
    41 to 60%
    0% 0 votes
    61 to 80%
    3% 1 vote
    81 to 100%
    3% 1 vote


«13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 753 ✭✭✭ryoishin


    I fight mulyiple opponents in training all the time, just never at the same time ha ha.

    I think if your fighting more than one person you have to be determined to survive.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭HammerHeadGym


    Has your master spent a lot of time fighting multiple opponents? Or is it more theory based? The raeson I ask is, as far as I've ever learned or intuited, if your carrying a weapon and fighting, the best thing to put between you and the attacker is the weapon. Why carry a sword if you're gonna kick a guy? I spent some time in Japan studying with a former riot cop trainer, who reckons fighting multiple opponents is the same as one on one, just 'more martial than art'


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,485 ✭✭✭✭Khannie


    I don't train for self defence. Only ringsport. Multiple opponents doesn't come into it for me.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭Dragan


    'more martial than art'

    Thats a pretty decent way to look at it. From my own experience anything involving multiple attackers or targets will boil down to how vicious you want/need to be and how lucky you are! Having a good delivery system is obviously a huge help but the simple fact is that one on one combat contains far too many variables to ensure a victory over any opponent ( talking about the "street" here as obviously in the sports realms those variables are limited ) so how people can really think you can effectively train for multiples is pretty much beyond me.

    See a target, make a decision, act, re-evaluate. There is not going to be a massive amount of concious thought it a real multiple attacker situation....or maybe i just wasn't clever when i was involved with them?

    I guess my main issue is that most systems designed for multiple attacker scenarios seem to be based around the idea of them being armed with something, you being armed with something and everyone having room to swing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    I think another, more revealing poll would be titled "What Percentage of Your Time Do You Spend Training for Multiple Opponents in an Effective Manner?"

    I've been in 2 "mutliple opponent" "fights" in my "life" (hmm, overdoing the quote marks? Nah.) and both times I got "hockeyed" and only "running" saved my bacon. That's when there's only been me and there's been more than one of them. Once I was 16/17 and walking home from my girl's house when her brother and his mates jumped me while he distracted me. The second time was 2 lads trying to take some of my possessions when I was pretty drunk. No amount of training could have prevented either of those, but having the lungs to run a kilometre flat out certainly helped me in the first incident. Apparently, a heroin habit=bad cardio. :D In the second, I thought I did alright until I saw my face the next day :(.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭Dragan


    Roper wrote: »
    In the second, I thought I did alright until I saw my face the next day :(.

    Damn Barry,

    i hope they got picked up for it man. Not the theft, damaging that work of art that is your face should carry some severe punishment!:D

    ** This line may include some smart-alecky-like-sarcasm!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Nothingcompares


    Roper wrote: »
    Once I was 16/17 and walking home from my girl's house when her brother and his mates jumped me while he distracted me.

    He didn't approve of your courtship?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 673 ✭✭✭pearsquasher


    Because the roots of Bujinkan training come from a feudal period where it's highly likely a fight will involve weapons AND multiples, training in this art has a built in sensitivity to that possibility from the start. Hence a large degree of staying mobile (ie. not going to ground), awareness of weapon use, use of tactical positioning, disengagement etc.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,485 ✭✭✭✭Khannie


    He didn't approve of your courtship?

    Yeah....bit harsh that. Did you do something to him? Or did he just not like you with his sister?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,533 ✭✭✭cletus


    I have difficulty dealing with one guy when im sparring, let alone aving another guy come after me


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 255 ✭✭Scramble


    My take on this is-

    1. The vast, vast majority of people out there still have enough problems dealing with an opponent of their own weight and ability, let alone multiple opponents.

    2. If you are outnumbered by a significant number of people then no matter how good you are then there is a good chance you're going to get absolutely hammered and end up going off in an ambulance. I accept that maybe training could make a difference in terms of exactly how badly you get hurt, but to be honest all the mutliple opponent training/drills I've seen have been clearly choreographed or else toned down in terms of the contact involved to the point it defeated the purpose.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭Dragan


    Because the roots of Bujinkan training come from a feudal period where it's highly likely a fight will involve weapons AND multiples, training in this art has a built in sensitivity to that possibility from the start. Hence a large degree of staying mobile (ie. not going to ground), awareness of weapon use, use of tactical positioning, disengagement etc.

    So your not really studying an art form that is relevant in todays modern life, so are hardly training for self defence with regard to multiple attackers. Your are training because you are enjoying what you are doing, not because it has any real application to your modern life.

    It's like a friend of mine who is really into and works with theoretical future communications but also studies and collects old telegram technology. It's no use to him in his real life application but he just enjoys it.

    I would call it training for fun, not training for self defence myself.

    Unless you can pull a High Lander and do a nifty job hiding that sword to ensure it is on your person when the multiples attack?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,925 ✭✭✭✭challengemaster


    Mainly train for competition sparring in Karate, always has been really.. near blackbelt now.That's all 1v1.. And am still a lowly beginner in TKD for now, only sparring so far has been 1v1 also.
    if your carrying a weapon and fighting, the best thing to put between you and the attacker is the weapon. Why carry a sword if you're gonna kick a guy?

    Well.. unless you're able to attack atleast twice as fast as either opponant, and strike with great effectiveness at the time when it counts(which in live combat, will be harder than training no doubt),then I doubt that you'll be able to take on 2 opponants attacking/closing in at the exact same time.
    you might cut one opponent, while kicking another (often back kick or side thrust), when both are closing.

    However I think that working on speed might be more beneficial in such a situation. Trying to back/side kick one person whilst precision sword combat another is no easy feat I'd imagine, and if the kick were to miss for any reason...

    If fighting 2+ opponants there's really 3 situations I can come up with that are possible.
    1) If you've something giving you a major advantage, eg. weapon with adequate training to deal with such events.
    2) Run the **** away.
    3) If possible, disarm/disable one attacker in such a way you can use him as a hostage.

    Obviously #3 would be hard enough to do (even in 2 opponant), so unless you're confident of your ability to do so, wouldn't be advised.

    Roper: wtf? Why would her brother just attack you? Unlucky


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    Uh, I'm sorta sorry I wrote that now because it is quite a long story.

    The nuts and bolts of it are that he had a heroin habit that was out of control (is there any other kind?) and he was stealing from his family. He was caught by his mother one night when I was in the house and I had to restrain him and since I didn't really know how to restrain someone back then, I ended up just hitting him a lot. In my defence, he had swung for his own mother and nearly connected and given her a few shoves. Anyway, after that he had it in for me and gave me the regular evil eye, but I thought he was just acting tough. Then he stopped me one night as I was walking home to "apologise'' to me and his mates jumped me when I was talking to him. I swung at them a bit and then was starting to take a beating so I managed to get away and just cheesed it. I wouldn't mind but the reason I was seeing that girl was because it was the first regular lay of my life. I was absolutely gutted after that because even that wasn't worth getting a hiding for every time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 757 ✭✭✭FiannaGym.com


    Kicking in a sword fight?

    That pretty much breaks every essential rule of sword fighting.

    Peace


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 753 ✭✭✭ryoishin


    There are some kicks but usually from a kneeling position. But in standing footwork is so crutial so its best to avoid kicking.

    Ah the regular lay and here i thought it was your bad jokes Roper.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,925 ✭✭✭✭challengemaster


    Kicking in a sword fight?

    That pretty much breaks every essential rule of sword fighting.

    Peace

    Excuse me if I question your qualifications, but how can you say this? Have you studied sword for years? are you infact a qualified master in sword?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 94 ✭✭3KINGS


    The Thai arts of krabbikrabong have been kicking in there sword arts for hundreds of years 'n' they normaly have two swords.......along with Indian,Phillie and Indo arts as well.

    There's tones of stuff out there on group attacks,some people just get to focused on either sport boxing ,wrestling,Muay Thai.......while other's focus to much on battlefield stuff,that with out the balance of playing sport ( military games ) they end up in the land of make believe.

    Sport and traditional arts,are one in the same.........they are just different sides of the same coin

    Peace...........J


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 673 ✭✭✭pearsquasher


    Dragan...you're incorrect in what you say about my training in the Bujinkan.

    Re-read what I said about it here. It's one of the basic premises of the art.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭Dragan


    Dragan...you're incorrect in what you say about my training in the Bujinkan.

    Re-read what I said about it here. It's one of the basic premises of the art.

    Hey dude,

    i have re-read your post but still cannot fathom how your training in Bujinkan could be considered a way of training that is relevant to modern day self defence? I mean, something based around a weapon you will not have on you just does not strike me as relevant.

    I am not trying to be dimissive and am genuinely curious as to what point i am missing. If you wouldn't mind breaking down the real world application for me i would be very grateful.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,769 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    An interesting exchange, so far... But some misunderstanding with regard to Iaijutsu. Please realise that, although I've trained hard for two years, I'm a novice at best, with years to go to become skillful. But I am a bit more knowledgeable than the lads that do cucumber or apple cutting demos to amuse the crowds at MA tournaments...

    First, it's not a sport like kendo, but rather an art form that's about 1000 years old. Yes, it was used in combat, as well as self-defense, but all these modern day street fighting comparisons are moot indeed, cause I could hardly go shopping down Grafton in Dub with my long sword tucked in my belt without drawing a bit of attention from the gardai?

    Second, most of what you have read in books or seen in the movies about Japanese swordfighting is myth, pure dramatic nonsense, or lost in translation. There is no clash of swords, cause with such swords they would chip and dull the blades. With Iaijutsu, after a million training repetitions over years with slight cut variations, you draw and cut your opponent in one fluid motion (or he cuts you), and game over!

    Third, in Iaijutsu YOU are the weapon. The sword is merely an extension of YOU. Yes, your blade is primary, but in combat you use all you've got to win, consequently, if by chance a second opponent gets too close and leaves himself open, kick his a*s and cut him while he's off balance! Game over! Thank the gods we use wooden bokens to fight with in practice and not shinken (live blades) or we'd all be dead.

    And lastly, I am amused by critiques on the uselessness of ancient martial arts like Iaijutsu. Be honest with yourselves and admit that you are into MA or MMA (or whatever) cause you are having fun, staying fit, and the practical application to the street may be good for chest thumping at the pub over a pint of Guinness, but is extremely rare to be used in the real world or you'd be spending time in court or jail.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭Dragan


    And lastly, I am amused by critiques on the uselessness of ancient martial arts like Iaijutsu. Be honest with yourselves and admit that you are into MA or MMA (or whatever) cause you are having fun, staying fit, and the practical application to the street may be good for chest thumping at the pub over a pint of Guinness, but is extremely rare to be used in the real world or you'd be spending time in court or jail.

    Nice post, slightly derogatory but it did give me some answers that i was looking for.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    If you want to fight multiple attackers,i reccomend you learn the ancient art of swinging people round by the hair whilst kneeing them in the face.You might also want to practise kicking people once they're on the ground to stop them getting up again.Oh yeah,and running like ****.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,485 ✭✭✭✭Khannie


    And lastly, I am amused by critiques on the uselessness of ancient martial arts like Iaijutsu.

    That comes accross as fairly pretentious to be fair. Modern ringsports are more effective in many respects than most older martial arts. Blade arts are an edge case (badum-tish! :D).

    edit: I know nothing of Iaijutsu. I infer from your post that it's a blade art. Anyone doing blade arts (as you point out) isn't doing it for self defence in a modern context (unless they're carrying a concealed blade weapon for self defence purposes, which I consider unlikely).
    Be honest with yourselves and admit that you are into MA or MMA (or whatever) cause you are having fun, staying fit, and the practical application to the street may be good for chest thumping at the pub over a pint of Guinness, but is extremely rare to be used in the real world or you'd be spending time in court or jail.

    I admit that I like the side benefit of being less likely to get the **** knocked out of me if push comes to shove (badum-tish!). Since I left school I've been in one fight and have avoided a good few with some good old fashioned cop on. Chest thumping has nothing to do with anything. If anything, feeling more confident gives me the ability to walk away more easily, as I've nothing to prove. I'm happy to step into the ring to prove myself to myself and don't have to batter some drunken muppet who's looking for a fight to feel good about myself.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    Hey there Blue Lagoon,

    Just wondering what you feel the things that are more commonly used in the real world are, since you think that kicking, punching, kneeing, elbowing, throwing and grappling are rarely used and are merely for chest thumping?

    Also, just FYI, I see you live in California and you may not be atuned to Irish sensibilities, but implying things like we all sit around in the pub drinking Guinness is a bit like saying go bomb someone to a Muslim. A wee bit stereotypical and offensive to some. Just letting you know.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,485 ✭✭✭✭Khannie


    Pretty sure she's Irish. Wasn't mental about the chest thumping tar-brush myself.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Nothingcompares


    Blue lagoon dips into this forum from time to time, the style and content of her posts never change, regardless of the change in tone and atmosphere of the board wrt to time. She seems almost oblivious to MMA etc., impervious to change, resolute in her opinion and steadfast in her position. A constant.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 661 ✭✭✭Charlie3dan


    I don't think that blue lagoon was taking a stab at the irish there at all, but that's me.

    As for the poll, I think the original question is poorly phrased. What does "seriously"
    training for multiple attackers mean?

    I could see some benefit from the choreographed or watered down group traing drills that are mentioned in previous posts, but definitely this wouldn't be sufficient.

    Developing knockout power would be essential (if you taking on a group, you have to be able to stop guys with one shot). Conditioning (you got to be able to take a shot, although this is null and void if the shot comes from a metal bar accross the back of the head obviously) and most importantly running fast quite fast!!!

    ....the things I mentioned above aren't exclusive to training for multiple attackers but are probably more valueable than the drills discussed


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 193 ✭✭MrO


    IMO - training against multiple opponents is interesting, a wee bit of eye-opener and worth spending *some* time on. It requires developing a little mental flexibility - and (for me) its a little like when you start training with weapons in that you're trying to divide your attention between a couple of things and one can end up messing up the other. So, you're using a stick, staff, knife, swords whatever and you become so focused on that - that your normal reactions and movement become stiff or messed up. Similar issue when facing multiple attackers in a sense.
    Anyway - worth doing now and then I think - but as someone else mentioned the choreography can be a little much sometimes so it all depends on how you approach it.

    I like Guinness.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,769 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    Roper wrote: »
    Just wondering what you feel the things that are more commonly used in the real world are, since you think that kicking, punching, kneeing, elbowing, throwing and grappling are rarely used and are merely for chest thumping?
    Hi Roper! Quite to the contrary. That was not the meaning of my post, but rather to point out that most of us have fun doing MA, and that we should chill out, relax, and not get so serious about street talk.

    In addition to TKD at our dojang, we teach SD that includes all of the above.
    But in a decade of training, I only had to use SD once. In this regard, I'm no different than most who practice a form of MA for several years, in that it is extremely rare (if ever) that it is used in the street. We had a thread in this forum not too long ago that confirmed this. In spite of its rarity in practice, it comes up a lot in these threads, as it did in this one, almost as if the value of your MA was dependent upon its street value.

    Edits:
    Hi Khannie! Rugadh i Gaillimh me'

    MrO: I love Guinness!

    Charlie3dan: Cinnte! Go raibh maith agat.

    Nothingcompares: Not going to say how far we go back... Ha!


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