So I got me first Protein supp today

unreggd

Went to the local Supplement shop, with plans to get some ProX Whey

But the guy said they dont sell it, cos its sh't

He also said whey isnt great, as your body cant absorb it all, like, if ye have a 50g shake, you can only absorb about 30g of the protein

So I got BSN Syntha-6. He said its made up of different proteins so your body can absorb all of it

I was worried about the flavour, and not bein able to return it if its gank, so he said if its gank, i can return it, and I was with me mate so had a witness

also have me a 10% discount and a free shaker [this sale point made me a bit suspicious]

but I just had a shake and it tastes great, got the Banana flavour one


So, is it true what he said about Whey? And does anyone else use BSN supplements?

Anyways, Im pretty happy with the purchase

Thomas_S_Hunterson

I think whey is widely regarded as the best, most complete protein you can take.

His margin was probably higher on that Syntha stuff.

Hanley

Don't suppose you picked it up on capal street by any chance?

unreggd

Nope, in Tallaght Village

I was pretty skeptical but he did seem to know what he was on about, and everything he said checked out so far
[tastes good, is good reviews on bodybuilding.com...]

Is there any truth in what he said about your body only absorbing some of the whey?

Mickk

Thats their other store...

unreggd

Who are "they" ???

siochain

bigger mark up on the BSN Syntha-6. What size tub and price was the BSN Syntha-6?

unreggd

Yeah it was 40 euro, but got it for 36 with a shaker

but its only a 3lb tub

Im not too fussed about the price, as its still way cheaper than buyin a 50g shake in the gym

BUT, is there any truth in what he said about Whey not being absorbed fully????

brianthebard

No there isn't.

Hanley

Mickk wrote: »

Thats their other store...

Haha it sounded like their bullsh!t rhetoric alright.

Unregged, no there is no truth to what they're saying. Well there sorta is, but not in tha context. He was referring to the BV value of protein which depends on it's "quality" and where it has a good amino acid profile or not. Let me assure you that the BV of Nutrition X products, and whey as a whole is not in anyway inferior to that BSN product that you were sold.

There is nothing "wrong" with it, and BSN are a reputable company but the quality is merely comparable to that of other brands. It's not in some way superior!

unreggd

Hanley wrote: »

no there is no truth to what they're saying. Well there sorta is, but not in tha context. He was referring to the BV value of protein which depends on it's "quality" and where it has a good amino acid profile or not. Let me assure you that the BV of Nutrition X products, and whey as a whole is not in anyway inferior to that BSN product that you were sold.

BSN are a reputable company but the quality is merely comparable to that of other brands. It's not in some way superior!

cheers!

arybvtcw0eolkf

unreggd wrote: »

BUT, is there any truth in what he said about Whey not being absorbed fully????

Yes, he's telling the truth.

But put it this way, if we absorbed everything from our diet we'd never piss or sh*t.

Too much protein can cause kidney problems as your kidneys have a job excreting excessive amounts of protein. (more later).

Mix your protein with water and not milk as water helps in absorbing protein.

(Your kidneys). I have a problem with protein and my kidneys. Protein (all proteins and not just whey) cause an increase in uric acid in your blood, and your kidneys filter your blood - right?.

Well in extrem cases that increase in uric acid levels can lead to the user suffering from Gout. But its really nothing to worry about as most likely your going to just pee and sh*t out the excess protein.

spottykatt

Mairt wrote: »

Yes, he's telling the truth.

But put it this way, if we absorbed everything from our diet we'd never piss or sh*t.

Too much protein can cause kidney problems as your kidneys have a job excreting excessive amounts of protein. (more later).

Mix your protein with water and not milk as water helps in absorbing protein.

(Your kidneys). I have a problem with protein and my kidneys. Protein (all proteins and not just whey) cause an increase in uric acid in your blood, and your kidneys filter your blood - right?.

Well in extrem cases that increase in uric acid levels can lead to the user suffering from Gout. But its really nothing to worry about as most likely your going to just pee and sh*t out the excess protein.

Hmm...not really agreeing wit the above. First off I dont believe there has been any published research concluding that protein can cause kidney problems, I stand corrected if anyone does? It is true that low protein diets are routinely used in the management of renal disease but its a bit of a leap to jump from there to excess protein actually causing disease! Also remember the kidneys are only responsible for approximately two-third of uric acid excretion, with the gut responsible for the rest, so the load is somewhat shared. As for the uric acid, well hyperuricemia is caused either by increased generation of uric acid through purine metabolism(yes theres the high protein food) or by impaired excretion in the kidney, or by high levels of fructose in the diet. And yes hyperuricemia is a common feature of gout, but urate levels are not always raised and a high uric acid level certainly does not necessarily mean a person will develop gout. Urate is reported to be within the normal range in up to two-thirds of cases!

Anyway sin e, just thought the above kinda scared people off protein but in reality unless you have a preexisting renal prob all shud be ok!:)

Mr Woods

When and what sort of quantites should you be drinking ?I bought the Holland & Barrett whey protein (€19.49) . Do you still have shakes on your rest days , i.e drink it everday or just the days you train ?

Apologies for the hijack

Al_Fernz

Mr Woods wrote: »

When and what sort of quantites should you be drinking ?I bought the Holland & Barrett whey protein (€19.49) . Do you still have shakes on your rest days , i.e drink it everday or just the days you train ?

Apologies for the hijack

It really depends on your diet and goals overall. Its a supplement not a replacement for protein in your diet. You need to look at your diet and decide whether or not your need it.

I.e if you estimate there is a 30g shortfall of protein in your diet on your rest days and whey is the most convienent way for you to get it then I would say go for it.

rubadub

Mairt wrote: »

Yes, he's telling the truth.

He also lied going by his own facts- typical ignorant fact-twisting lying salesman scum. He said you only absorb 60% from whey. He then said you absorb 100% of protein in BSN Syntha-6, if the OP has stated everything rightly.

But look at the ingredients of BSN Syntha-6, the main ingredient is whey :rolleyes:

Ingredients: Vanilla Ice Cream Other Ingredients: A Sustained Release Ultra-Premium Protein Matrix Comprised of (Ultrafiltered Whey Protein Concentrate [Milk] Rich in Alpha-Lactalbumin, Microfiltered Whey Protein Isolate [Milk] Rich in Whey Isolate Peptide Fractions, Calcium Caseinate, Micellar Alpha and Beta Caseins and Caseinates [Milk], Milk Protein Isolate [Milk], and Egg Albumen [Egg], Glutamine Peptides), Richmix Sunflower Powder Consisting of (Sunflower Oil, Corn Syrup Solids, Sodium Caseinate [Milk], Mono- and Di-Glycerides, and Dipotassium Phosphate), Litesse II Polydextrose, Natural and Artificial Flavors, Nutrisperse MCT Powder Consisting of (Medium Chain Triglycerides, Non-Fat Dry Milk, Disodium Phosphate, and Silicon Dioxide), Ticalose Cellulose Gum, Sucralose, Acesulfame Potassium, Lecithin [Soy], Aminogen, and Papain.

http://www.bsn-wholesale.com/BSN-Syntha-6-Protein.htm

Hail 2 Da Chimp

Ice cream in protein..? Must give it a go!

arybvtcw0eolkf

spottykatt wrote: »

Hmm...not really agreeing wit the above. First off I dont believe there has been any published research concluding that protein can cause kidney problems, I stand corrected if anyone does? It is true that low protein diets are routinely used in the management of renal disease but its a bit of a leap to jump from there to excess protein actually causing disease! Also remember the kidneys are only responsible for approximately two-third of uric acid excretion, with the gut responsible for the rest, so the load is somewhat shared. As for the uric acid, well hyperuricemia is caused either by increased generation of uric acid through purine metabolism(yes theres the high protein food) or by impaired excretion in the kidney, or by high levels of fructose in the diet. And yes hyperuricemia is a common feature of gout, but urate levels are not always raised and a high uric acid level certainly does not necessarily mean a person will develop gout. Urate is reported to be within the normal range in up to two-thirds of cases!

Anyway sin e, just thought the above kinda scared people off protein but in reality unless you have a preexisting renal prob all shud be ok!:)

I've been a slave to my kidneys and gout since I was 24yrs old (I'm 42 now), I'm pretty much up on what I posted - stand corrected .

Btw, you pretty much contradicted yourself in that post!.

But honestly I'm not here to argue, and I did say in extrem cases.

arybvtcw0eolkf

rubadub wrote: »

He also lied going by his own facts-

Hey listen no where will you ever see me say that Wes and everything he stands for isn't lie's

I wouldn't recommend anyone go to his shops, esp. not a newbie.

siochain

Mairt would you agreed with this statement

Excessive Protein can cause problems for people with existing or susceptible to kidney problems. For those with normal kidney function there is no risk if they follow the recommended guidelines.

g'em

siochain wrote: »

Mairt would you agreed with this statement

Excessive Protein can cause problems for people with existing or susceptible to kidney problems. For those with normal kidney function there is no risk if they follow the recommended guidelines.

Obviously I'm not Mairt (he looks better in a pink bikini than I do ) but fwiw I agree with the above. Some literature:

Am J Kidney Dis. 2004 Dec;44(6):950-62.

High-protein diets: potential effects on the kidney in renal health and disease.

Friedman AN.
Division of Nephrology, Indiana University School of Medicine, Indianapolis, IN
46202, USA. allfried@iupui.edu

High-protein (HP) weight-loss diets have existed in the United States for
decades, although their popularity has recently surged as obesity has become more common. Despite their widespread use, valid concerns exist that HP diets may induce clinically important alterations in renal function and health. HP consumption has been found, under various conditions, to lead to glomerular hyperfiltration and hyperemia; acceleration of chronic kidney disease (CKD); increased proteinuria; diuresis, natriuresis, and kaliuresis with associated blood pressure changes; increased risk for nephrolithiasis; and various metabolic alterations. Unfortunately, a comprehensive understanding of the implications of HP diets is limited by the lack of a universally accepted definition for HP intake, a paucity of rigorous long-term human interventional studies that necessitate relying on short-term or fairly circumstantial evidence, and sparse data on the effects of HP consumption in obese individuals. In addition, matters are further complicated because the renal impact HP diets for limited periods is most likely different than that for more chronic consumption. Nevertheless, although there are no clear renal-related contraindications to HP diets in individuals with healthy kidney function, the theoretical risks should be reviewed carefully with the patient. In contrast, HP diets have the potential for significant harm in individuals with CKD and should be avoided if possible. Because CKD is often a silent disease, all individuals should undergo a screening serum creatinine measurement and urinary dipstick test for proteinuria before the initiation of such a diet.

Nutr Metab (Lond). 2005 Sep 20;2:25.

Dietary protein intake and renal function.

Martin WF, Armstrong LE, Rodriguez NR.

Department of Nutritional Sciences, University of Connecticut, Storrs, CT, USA.
William.martin@uconn.edu

Recent trends in weight loss diets have led to a substantial increase in protein intake by individuals. As a result, the safety of habitually consuming dietary protein in excess of recommended intakes has been questioned. In particular,there is concern that high protein intake may promote renal damage by chronically increasing glomerular pressure and hyperfiltration. There is, however, a serious question as to whether there is significant evidence to support this relationshipin healthy individuals. In fact, some studies suggest that hyperfiltration, the purported mechanism for renal damage, is a normal adaptative mechanism that occurs in response to several physiological conditions. This paper reviews the available evidence that increased dietary protein intake is a health concern in terms of the potential to initiate or promote renal disease. While protein restriction may be appropriate for treatment of existing kidney disease, we find no significant evidence for a detrimental effect of high protein intakes on kidney function in healthy persons after centuries of a high protein Western
diet.

Mickk

Hanley wrote: »

Haha it sounded like their bullsh!t rhetoric alright.

Unregged, no there is no truth to what they're saying. Well there sorta is, but not in tha context. He was referring to the BV value of protein which depends on it's "quality" and where it has a good amino acid profile or not. Let me assure you that the BV of Nutrition X products, and whey as a whole is not in anyway inferior to that BSN product that you were sold.

There is nothing "wrong" with it, and BSN are a reputable company but the quality is merely comparable to that of other brands. It's not in some way superior!

Its amazing isn't it, his whole business was built on Optimum whey back when optimum was only a small company and he got a good price on it, now that they are such a high profile company demanding high prices for everything, coupled with the global whey prices increase now all of a sudden whey is bad and cant be absorbed??

Its nearly as bad as tony quinn, he touted whey for years and then looked into getting his own brand made, realised that cows milk has 4 times more casein than whey and with the demand for whey he could basically get casein for nothing and his own brand protein was born.
His official line is "whey is out of your system in 40 mins" (yea thats true out of your system and in your muscles...)

AARRRGH

spottykatt wrote: »

First off I dont believe there has been any published research concluding that protein can cause kidney problems, I stand corrected if anyone does?

My brother is a kidney expert and he has told me too much protein is very bad for your kidneys. Basically through evolution our kidneys expect our diets to only contain small amounts of protein. Eating lots of unnecessary protein puts them under immense strain. The problem with your kidneys is you generally don't know you've a problem until it's too late.

JJ6000

The idea that a high protein diet can cause kidney problems in healthy individuals is complete and utter rubbish and the fact that many nutritionists still repeat this myth really demostrates their lack of knowledge on the subject. How some of these people got their qualifications is completely beyond me.

There is NOT ONE SINGLE STUDY which states that it can....not a single one. The only studies documenting the negative effects of protein on kidney function are done on individuals with pre-existing/underlying medical conditions/pre-dispositions.

Here's an analogy:
patients who have suffered a heart attack/angina are usually advised to stay away from stimulants like caffeine since they can exacerbate the condition. Does this mean that a cup of coffee carries risks of heart problems for the average healthy individual. Of course not. It is, in general, completely safe for someone to drink a cup of coffee.

It bothers me when nutrionists start to regurgitate some information they have heard but completely and utterly mis-interpreted. Many nutritionists state the risks of high protein diets as if they somehow apply to the general population. In regurgitating this info, and failing to understand that it is not generally applicable, a lot of nutritionists demonstrate how they really arent that bright when it comes to nutrition. Almost EVERYTHING can be dangerous in some way if an appropriate underlying/pre-existing medical condition exists.

It's my view that a hell of a lot of nutritionists dont know what the HELL they are talking about most of the time. During a hospital visit (for blood tests - I had a bug) the hospital nutritionist happened to question me about my diet and protein intake. I told her I took in about 300-400 grams protein a day. She was shocked and advised me that NOBODY (yes, nobody) needs more than 50-60 grams per day. She made no exception to the fact that I weigh a lot more than the 90 year old patients she is used to dealing with or that I do heavy weight training 4-5 times per week. As far as she was concerned, my protein requirments were the same as a 75 year old stroke patient....because that's what her teacher told her in class the day they studied protein requirments. Ridiculous! If She exercised even the most basic level of reasoning (considering muscle mass, level of exercise) then she would realise that the protein requirments of a 96kg male are not the same as a 45kg female stroke patient. It's not uncommon for many nutritionists to fail to exercise this very basic reasoning though. Time and time again I have seen it happen.

There are many good nutritionists....but in general, i am of the view that many have absolutley no idea about what they preach.
High protein diets are completely safe for 99.999% of the population.

crotalus667

JJ6000 wrote: »

I told her I took in about 300-400 grams protein a day.

Slightly off topic how many grams of protein per pound of lean body mass to you aim for each day ??

JJ6000

dublindude wrote: »

My brother is a kidney expert and he has told me too much protein is very bad for your kidneys. Basically through evolution our kidneys expect our diets to only contain small amounts of protein. Eating lots of unnecessary protein puts them under immense strain. The problem with your kidneys is you generally don't know you've a problem until it's too late.

One of 3 things is has occured here.

a) Your brother is simply wrong (yes, doctors can be wrong - it happens all the time). He may have mis-interpreted the data/studies and mistakenly believes they apply to healthy individuals also.
He knows what he is talking about, but failed to clarify to you that this only applies who have some kind of underlying kidney condition/predisposition.
c) You mis-understood what your brother said.

Ask your brother to provide you with evidence/studies that high protein diets cause kidney problems in healthy individuals.

I have a feeling though, that if he is an expert, he will clarify that these risks do not apply to healthy individuals.

mack1

Also there is:
(d) he is right, he DID explain it correctly and it WAS understood but he didn't specify how much "too much" protein is.

@crotalus667 - depends on goals/training etc but for building/maintaining muscle somewhere around the 1g per lb of bodyweight is what you're looking. Though some say more! I am happy when I get 200g in a day.

JJ6000 wrote: »

One of 3 things is has occured here.

a) Your brother is simply wrong (yes, doctors can be wrong - it happens all the time). He may have mis-interpreted the data/studies and mistakenly believes they apply to healthy individuals also.
He knows what he is talking about, but failed to clarify to you that this only applies who have some kind of underlying kidney condition/predisposition.
c) You mis-understood what your brother said.

Ask your brother to provide you with evidence/studies that high protein diets cause kidney problems in healthy individuals.

I have a feeling though, that if he is an expert, he will clarify that these risks do not apply to healthy individuals.

siochain

JJ6000 wrote: »

The idea that a high protein diet can cause kidney problems in healthy individuals is complete and utter rubbish and the fact that many nutritionists still repeat this myth really demostrates their lack of knowledge on the subject. How some of these people got their qualifications is completely beyond me.

JJ6000 wrote: »

a) Your brother is simply wrong (yes, doctors can be wrong - it happens all the time). He may have mis-interpreted the data/studies and mistakenly believes they apply to healthy individuals also.

well stated.

Dragan

dublindude wrote: »

My brother is a kidney expert and he has told me too much protein is very bad for your kidneys. Basically through evolution our kidneys expect our diets to only contain small amounts of protein. Eating lots of unnecessary protein puts them under immense strain. The problem with your kidneys is you generally don't know you've a problem until it's too late.

Please see rule number 1 of the charter and try and come back with some sort of fact.

Cheers.

rubadub

dublindude wrote: »

My brother is a kidney expert and he has told me too much protein is very bad for your kidneys.

mack1 wrote: »

(d) he is right, he DID explain it correctly and it WAS understood but he didn't specify how much "too much" protein is.

Yes without figures it is meaningless. The very statement "too much", would logically mean to me that it is a dangerous amount.

"Too much" water is very bad for you, it can kill you.

arybvtcw0eolkf

rubadub wrote: »

Yes without figures it is meaningless. The very statement "too much", would logically mean to me that it is a dangerous amount.

"Too much" water is very bad for you, it can kill you.

I think you'd argue your points regardless what was posted

JJ6000

crotalus667 wrote: »

Slightly off topic how many grams of protein per pound of lean body mass to you aim for each day ??

Personally, I would take in between 1.5-2g per pound of bodyweight.

1g, in my opinion anyway, is the very minimum amount for those engaged in heavy weight training. Some are fine with this amount and grow well but personally, I have found that going between 1.5-2g is better for me.

These are only guidelines however. It's really a matter of tweaking your intake until you find a level you are happy and progress well with.

crotalus667

mack1 wrote: »

Also there is:
@crotalus667 - depends on goals/training etc but for building/maintaining muscle somewhere around the 1g per lb of bodyweight is what you're looking. Though some say more! I am happy when I get 200g in a day.

I call one a bare min for maintenance personally I try never to dip below 1.5 when dieting but It’s normally about 2 when dieting , and 2-2.5 when im not dieting

crotalus667

JJ6000 wrote: »

These are only guidelines however. It's really a matter of tweaking your intake until you find a level you are happy and progress well with.

I have to say that 1.5-2 seem to be best for me when I go for 2.5 it has shall we call it a negative effect on my errrr well my movements

mack1

crotalus667 wrote: »

I call one a bare min for maintenance personally I try never to dip below 1.5 when dieting but It’s normally about 2 when dieting , and 2-2.5 when im not dieting

Are we still talking grams per pound and not kg? If so fair play - as I said I consider it a good day to get 200g in a day, that includes 1 or 2 protein shakes 3 chicken breasts, tuna and eggs each day - if I was to aim for 400g of protein in a day that would require some amount of eating! (Not saying I'm not up for it but I do need time to y'know go to work and stuff!)

crotalus667

mack1 wrote: »

Are we still talking grams per pound

yes we are

mack1 wrote: »

If so fair play - as I said I consider it a good day to get 200g in a day, that includes 1 or 2 protein shakes 3 chicken breasts, tuna and eggs each day - if I was to aim for 400g of protein in a day that would require some amount of eating! (Not saying I'm not up for it but I do need time to y'know go to work and stuff!)

It's not that different it just means bigger servings , I tend to cook chicken in advance 5-10 breasts (steamed) , if you have the time to eat 200g’s you have the time to eat 400 a fav of mine is a tin of tuna and a tub of cottage cheese (low fat)

AARRRGH

I don't think it's wise to dismiss people who have alternative views.

From doing a bit of googling, it does sound like there needs to be an existing kidney problem.

For example (from the BBC):

US researchers followed 1,624 women aged between 42 and 68 were monitored over 11 years.

It was found 489 had a mild kidney problem.

Women were asked to fill out questionaires about their eating habits to see how much protein they ate.

They were also asked about other factors which could influence their kidney health such as age, weight, height, diabetes, high blood pressure, cholesterol levels and smoking and alcohol habits.

The researchers also took blood samples to evaluate kidney function.

The researchers found that in women who had normal kidney function, there was no link between high-protein diets and a decline in renal function.

But those who already had a mild kidney problem who ate a high-protein diet, particularly one high in meat protein, showed some deterioration.

Dairy or vegetable protein was not linked with worsening kidney function.

The reality is probably none of us know if we have an existing kidney problem or not, so a high protein diet might be bad for you.

Also, are any of you kidney experts like my brother? He told me, in his department (he works for a University) it was commonly agreed that the Atkins diet, because of it's high protein diet, was going to cause a lot of damage.

Before you jump down my throat, I'm not saying don't take protein supplements (I take them myself), I'm saying don't close your mind to things which scare you.

g'em

dublindude wrote: »

Also, are any of you kidney experts like my brother? He told me, in his department (he works for a University) it was commonly agreed that the Atkins diet, because of it's high protein diet, was going to cause a lot of damage.

And my ma told me that if I kept making faces and the wind blew the wrong way I'd stay looking that way forever and ever.

No-one is dismissing laternative views, but given the nature of the forum when someone makes a high-impact statement such as the one you made above, the Charter dictates that you show evidence, first-hand experience or studies to back up your claims.

Likewise for the Atkins comment. Studies or it doesn't exist.

Dragan

dublindude wrote: »

I don't think it's wise to dismiss people who have alternative views.

No one is dismissing anything from what i can see. Rather, people are finding studies and such. You could be a massive help if your brother can point some little known studies out to us?

dublindude wrote: »

Also, are any of you kidney experts like my brother?

Nope. But ( no offence ) your brother is not a "kidney expert" here, he is the faceless brother or a faceless user of a big ambiguous website so any actual help HE would be willing to give us instead of third hand info would rock.

I mean, at the end of the day, all i am asking you to do is come up with studies or maybe send this thread on to you bro and see if he would be willing to join the discussion?

AARRRGH

OK, let me see what I can do.

DILLIGAF

well *****!

I think less of this kidney talk is in order. Unless you have any currently underlying issues with pissing or ****ting, or any digestive problems( other than the usual runny ****s after a vindaloo etc) then don't worry your head. If you DO have such problems, then you already know that you have to be careful about what you take in.

Regarding the protein, make sure your working out and getting the most from your supplements. Whey protein is fast absorbing, it is not superior or in anyway better than normal protein for building lean muscle.

Just watch what you take, as you should your diet anyway, and you'll be fine. Oh and buy quality! USN is the dogs balls, tastes unreal and the muscle fuel mass one is killer for getting your weight up while you workout!

Goodluck!

Dragan

dublindude wrote: »

OK, let me see what I can do.

Cheers mate.

JJ6000

dublindude wrote: »

I don't think it's wise to dismiss people who have alternative views.

From doing a bit of googling, it does sound like there needs to be an existing kidney problem.

For example (from the BBC):



The reality is probably none of us know if we have an existing kidney problem or not, so a high protein diet might be bad for you.

Also, are any of you kidney experts like my brother? He told me, in his department (he works for a University) it was commonly agreed that the Atkins diet, because of it's high protein diet, was going to cause a lot of damage.

Before you jump down my throat, I'm not saying don't take protein supplements (I take them myself), I'm saying don't close your mind to things which scare you.

I'm not dismissing alternative views. I'm simply stating that no evidence exists to suggest that high protein diets are harmful individuals with healthy kidney function.

No disrespect to you or your brother intended here, but the fact that somebody is an expert absolutley DOES NOT imply that I will necessarily believe or accept what they say. I think for myself and will always question what someone says to me whether they are an expert or an average man on the street.

I have, in universities and in general life, heard some of the most absurd claims and misinformation come from experts, lecturers and professors on certain issues. The media is plagued with so called experts who regurgitate some of the absolute worst mis-information and incorrect science on many issues. I have known several medical students who tell me various things their lecturer has said. I KNOW many of these things to be simply wrong. I know I am not a doctor but that does not mean I am incapable of proving one wrong (I have disagreed with my GP on several occasions). Im not at all saying your brother falls into this category, but my point is that being an expert does not entitle one to expect their views to be accepted without providing a coherent and scientific argument as to why this is the case or without providing evidence in the form of reliable scientific data and relevant peer reviewed studies.

As far as I am concerned, I am totally unaware of any such data or peer reviewed studies that prove, or even hint at, what you claim your brother is saying. Expert or not, if someone can not provide convincing scientific evidence/studies/data for what they are saying then I will not afford much weight to their views.

Unfortunatley, "expert" is just a title. If your brother is correct, then he will not have any problem at all providing sufficient evidence.

But your input is appreciated. I dont intend this post to sound insulting to you or your brother.

yomchi

Edit by Dragan : I suggest you stop posting as a company you don't appear to have any involvement in. And if you do actually work for them i suggest you check with the Two Boyz before you try and represent their opinion on the internet.

Degsy

...What a tangled web we weave...:cool:

arybvtcw0eolkf

JJ6000 what are you qualifications? (if you don't mind me asking) because you come accross as pretty arrogant in the way your dismissing everything which conflicts with your beliefs.

Its been stated here already that the problem with kidneys is that the majority of people with kidney problems won't know about it until its too late.

And one site I visited HERE states that also. It also recommends that people embarking on the Atkins diet have their Kidney checked first (because of its high protein intake).

I visited many more which stated more or less the same, but I'm in work at the moment and can't spend the time linking them to here.

I can only talk from my own personal experience.

I've followed my doctor's advice over the year's in regards to my kidneys and have (in the last 22 year's) had stable K.F.T. bloods (I've K.F.T's and L.F.T's taken every six months). I've also been under the care of a renal consultant in that time too, and they ALL without exception warned me on the danger's of a very high protein diet - What do you think they'd say to me if on my next vist I said "JJ6000 from the internet told me your all wrong" ?.

Gillo

Dragan wrote: »

Please see rule number 1 of the charter and try and come back with some sort of fact.

I don't want to come across as antagonizing, but from the point of view of a balanced discussion, could someone point me (and everybody else) in the direction of a study that says that it is safe to take large amounts of protein or at least what the maximum levels of protein are that people should be taking.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Gillo wrote: »

I don't want to come across as antagonizing, but from the point of view of a balanced discussion, could someone point me (and everybody else) in the direction of a study that says that it is safe to take large amounts of protein or at least what the maximum levels of protein are that people should be taking.

I think the principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' need apply to protein here.

You're not going to get a study explicitly saying that it's safe to consume 600g of protein per day as it could leave the publishers open to legal problems.

In the absence of studies saying otherwise, we can assume that protein does not cause problems, even with larger-than-normal ingestion in most people.

celestial

dublindude wrote: »

My brother is a kidney expert and he has told me too much protein is very bad for your kidneys. Basically through evolution our kidneys expect our diets to only contain small amounts of protein. Eating lots of unnecessary protein puts them under immense strain. The problem with your kidneys is you generally don't know you've a problem until it's too late.

This statement, to me, is so baffling in its ridiculousness and I'm surprised no-one has called out the bolded part in particular. We as a human species grew up eating meat and vegetables and not much else, a long long time before bread and pasta or any grains ever existed. In a broader sense, the problem with x causing y in someone with z, where x = a substance, y = health issue, z = an underlying condition quite often leads to x potentially causing y, generally speaking, simply by association!

I don't think you could get too much protein if you went out on a mission to do so. Your body takes what it needs and disposes with the rest. Sure, if you really went absolutely nuts on the protein you might be overworking your kidneys, just as you'd be overworking them with other excesses - but this is the absolute extreme end of the scale - a bit like eating or drinking too much of anything is going to do you harm.

JJ6000

Mairt wrote: »

JJ6000 what are you qualifications? (if you don't mind me asking) because you come accross as pretty arrogant in the way your dismissing everything which conflicts with your beliefs.

Its been stated here already that the problem with kidneys is that the majority of people with kidney problems won't know about it until its too late.

And one site I visited HERE states that also. It also recommends that people embarking on the Atkins diet have their Kidney checked first (because of its high protein intake).

I visited many more which stated more or less the same, but I'm in work at the moment and can't spend the time linking them to here.

I can only talk from my own personal experience.

I've followed my doctor's advice over the year's in regards to my kidneys and have (in the last 22 year's) had stable K.F.T. bloods (I've K.F.T's and L.F.T's taken every six months). I've also been under the care of a renal consultant in that time too, and they ALL without exception warned me on the danger's of a very high protein diet - What do you think they'd say to me if on my next vist I said "JJ6000 from the internet told me your all wrong" ?.

Well, I would say to them that all the evidence points to high protein diets being perfectly fine in healthy individuals. They will likely disagree with me. I would then ask them to back up their viewpoint with scientific evidence and peer reviewed studies instead of just saying "well, it is...I am a doctor and you are not".

Since when is it arrogant not to blindly accept what a so called "expert" says to me?? I think you fail to realise that scepticism is a healthy thing. It is good to question the viewpoint of experts.

Once again, being an expert DOES NOT give someone freedom to state things which simply arent true. Doctors are not god's. They are often mistaken. I will treat a claim from an expert the same way I would treat a claim from anyone else. I will ask them to provide evidence backing up their claims. If they can not do so then their arguments are baseless. I will then seek out evidence on my own. I have done this, and as i've stated before ALL THE EVIDENCE POINTS TO HIGH-PROTEIN DIETS BEING HEALTHY FOR HEaLTHY INDIVIDUALS. Time and time again I have heard experts and nutritionists state the opposite. Time and time again I have disagreed with them and EVERY SINGLE time, they can not provide me with ANY evidence or peer reviewed studies showing that it can cause renal damage in individuals without any pre-existing medical conditions, while I can provide much evidence to state that it does not.

Do you think I should accept what a doctor says just because he is a doctor?? in the absence of any collaborating evidence??

Your viewpoint comes across to me as being EXTREMELY naive. You stated "...they ALL without exception warned me on the danger's of a very high protein diet". Well, would this not prompt you (before now) to do a little bit of research yourself into the correlation between high protein intake and "supposed" renal problems in healthy individuals?

I can, and will, post peer reviewed studies demonstrating that high protein intake is safe in those with healthy renal functions. I have asked you to post studies proving otherwise. You have not, and you criticize me for stating that no evidence exists which would suggest such a thing. In fact, not only is there a lack of evidence for the idea that high protein diets are dangerous in healthy individuals, but the studies that have been done on healthy individuals point to the OPPOSITE.

Tell me, exactly what have I dismissed? I am not just dismissing everything which conflicts with my beliefs. I am dismissing everything for which NO EVIDENCE EXISTS.....and for which all the studies that exist point to the opposite. It is naive to ignore studies proving the opposite, and to ignore the fact that no evidence exists suggesting it is dangerous for healthy individuals...It is naive to dismiss all this simply because the "experts" say it is the opposite. If they are right, they should be able to prove it. They have not.

Again, I am simply saying the evidence suggests that it is completely safe for those with normal renal function. If you are so sure that the opposite is true, the prove it. If your brother is so adamant that high protein diets are dangerous even for those with normal renal function, then he MOST CERTAINLY should be able to provide peer reviewed studies proving it. In the absence of such evidence, his views, I am sorry to say are worthless. In fact, they are worse than worthless, they are misleading.

As for my qualifications? As regards nutrition/medicine, I have no formal qualifications. It does not, however, take a medical professional to grasp the basic principles of scientific argument. You NEED EVIDENCE to back up your claims. The experts you refer to appear to have made a leap in logic in presuming that while high protein diets are POTENTIALLY dangerous for SOME of those with already compromised renal function, these same principles apply to the vast majority of the population who have perfectly fine renal function. There are gaping holes in the argument when a leap of logic like that is made. Not only is there a lack of evidence, but the evidence points to the opposite.

Point out to me where I am being arrogant or dismissive. It appears to me, that you are actually being dismissive. You are dismissing the fact that NO EVIDENCE exists to prove or even suggest that high protein diets are dangerous for those with healthy renal funtion. Instead, you cite what various doctors have said to you as if their opinion ranks ahead of scientific evidence. A wrong opinion is a wrong opinipon. Expert or not.

The only evidence you have provided is that long-term high protein diets can exacerbate underlying conditions in those with already compromised renal function. I never disagreed with this. I agree with you that if you are in any doubt as to whether you have a renal problem then you should get a thorough check-up before you start a high protein diet. While some studies say that high protein diets cause renal (kidney) dysfunction, they were done on people who already had some sort of renal disease in the first place. I dont mean to sound insulting when I say, well, duh!

The link you posted is a relatively small scale study. More importantly, it refers to risk as existing only with regards to those with ALREADY COMPROMISED renal function. It does not indicate what class of individuals were studied (age etc) It also does not indicate the LEVEL of association between high proetin intake and compromised renal function in those with already existing conditions --- it states that 25% of the subjects had pre-existing problems and this is the only group for whom high proetin was dangerous...it states that there was a "significantly measurable association" in that group. Well, what does "significantly measurable association" refer to. 5%....7%...10%???
5% of 25% is a very small number and while it is significatly measurable, it is nevertheless a small number and would indicate to me that the overall risk to the general population is quite small. 5% is just an example since the study has not detailed what the "significantly measurable" number is....but see how studies can be misleading? VERY IMPORTANTLY, it also does not indicate precisely HOW dangerous high protein was for these individuals - did it severely compromise renal function in those with pre-existing conditions or did it only mildly increase the symptoms?

nevertheless, I agree with you that if you are in any doubt then you should get your kidney function checked before you eat a high protein diet. But if you want to make any arguement further than that, then you are going to have to provide evidence.

JJ6000 from the internet did not tell these "experts" they were wrong....the EVIDENCE told them they were wrong. That is what you can say to them the next time you see them. Let me know how they respond.

Gillo

Sean_K wrote: »

In the absence of studies saying otherwise, we can assume that protein does not cause problems, even with larger-than-normal ingestion in most people.

Surely, a study would at least give a recommended level of in take for various people, or in the case of your example say that taking 600 grams have whatever effect.