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Heat Pumps Performace - Request Feedback on installations

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  • Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭RavenII


    YEAR INSTALLED - 2003
    M2 FLOOR AREA - 350
    AIR TO WATER - no
    GROUND SOURCE ( HORIZONTAL ) - some also
    GROUND SOURCE ( VERTICAL ) - yes
    UFH? - yes
    RADIATORS? Towel Rails
    BOTH?
    HOW WELL INSULATED WOULD YOU SAY THE BUILDING IS ? Not very well compared to today's standards
    COST OF INSTALLATION Borehole 3k, heat pump 8k
    ANNUAL ESB BILL around 3k + (house , outbuildings, hot tub etc)
    ANNUAL ESB UNIT CONSUMPTION around 1400
    ARE YOU GLAD YOU USED A HEAT PUMP yes, a significant saving over the 4,000 litres of oil we used to use, the heat pump regulates the heating with the weather and so we just have thermostats in bedrooms...it will probably start up gently any day now, we don't notice, the house is just always at 21/22 deg


  • Registered Users Posts: 19 manfromthemoon


    Hi,
    Does anyone have a Thermia or Daikin Air / Water heat pump? Decision has to be made in the next few days... 2700 sq ft, underfloor throughout. Highly insulated with triple glazed windows.
    Any feedback, either positive or negative greatly appreciated.


  • Registered Users Posts: 43 adrianm1234


    JB81 wrote: »
    YEAR INSTALLED 2011
    M2 FLOOR AREA 180
    AIR TO WATER Yes
    UFH? yes
    RADIATORS?no
    BOTH?no
    HOW WELL INSULATED WOULD YOU SAY THE BUILDING IS ? Very well insulated, 200mm pump filled cavity, 150mm in floors, 300mm in attic, air tightness done, was aiming for A3 rating but have not done final BER.
    ANNUAL ESB BILL: August-September €110 ( no heating on ), October - November €130 ( Heating at night only ), December - January €210 ( heating at night and boosted in evenings ), all prices including normal ESB, cooking, hot water etc.. )
    ARE YOU GLAD YOU USED A HEAT PUMP yes very

    What heat pump did you use?Are you still happy with it? Did you put in mhrv with it?What make hp did you go with? Thanks in advance


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭fclauson


    Hi,
    Does anyone have a Thermia or Daikin Air / Water heat pump? Decision has to be made in the next few days... 2700 sq ft, underfloor throughout. Highly insulated with triple glazed windows.
    Any feedback, either positive or negative greatly appreciated.

    I have the Danfoss (which is Thermia) HP

    works fine - but web interface to the unit is weak and the controls for day/night are weak - this may well have changed in the past 4 years


  • Registered Users Posts: 64 ✭✭soundskin


    fclauson wrote: »
    I have the Danfoss (which is Thermia) HP

    works fine - but web interface to the unit is weak and the controls for day/night are weak - this may well have changed in the past 4 years

    You can still do night rate control with that heat pump. Limited controls but very reliable and spares are good value too on that unit


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  • Registered Users Posts: 64 ✭✭soundskin


    YEAR INSTALLED - 2017. House is 1970s with 2 extensions
    M2 FLOOR AREA - 190
    RADIATORS? YES (all existing from oil system)
    HOW WELL INSULATED WOULD YOU SAY THE BUILDING IS ? Poor. Tripple insulation i attic and pumped cavities
    COST OF INSTALLATION 8k but installed myself
    ANNUAL ESB BILL for Heat pump only €780
    ARE YOU GLAD YOU USED A HEAT PUMP - Yes constant heat and hot water. No brainer


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,502 ✭✭✭maynooth_rules


    soundskin wrote: »
    YEAR INSTALLED - 2017. House is 1970s with 2 extensions
    M2 FLOOR AREA - 190
    RADIATORS? YES (all existing from oil system)
    HOW WELL INSULATED WOULD YOU SAY THE BUILDING IS ? Poor. Tripple insulation i attic and pumped cavities
    COST OF INSTALLATION 8k but installed myself
    ANNUAL ESB BILL for Heat pump only €780
    ARE YOU GLAD YOU USED A HEAT PUMP - Yes constant heat and hot water. No brainer

    Is the only thing you did to the house attic insulation and cavities pumped? We have moved into a C2 house and want to improve the insulation to get a heat pump but unsure what we should do


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Has anyone got a Heliotherm heat pump ? supposed to be one of the best out there.

    I was interested in the groundwater pump, COP of 7:1 can heat to 50 + Deg C, that is pretty amazing. And I believe higher cop can be achieved with lower temp.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,009 ✭✭✭Mr Q


    Has anyone got a Heliotherm heat pump ? supposed to be one of the best out there.

    I was interested in the groundwater pump, COP of 7:1 can heat to 50 + Deg C, that is pretty amazing. And I believe higher cop can be achieved with lower temp.

    Does that include the power usage to get the water to the heat pump? If not that COP could work out less.

    Heat output at W10W35 of 9.3kW using 1.5kW with a COP of 6.4 is on their website for the smallest version. Figures are wrong but i assume they rounded them.

    Add say a 1kW well pump and the COP drops significantly. I know this probably wont run all the time the heat pump is but you would need to know this figure.


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Mr Q wrote: »
    Does that include the power usage to get the water to the heat pump? If not that COP could work out less.

    Heat output at W10W35 of 9.3kW using 1.5kW with a COP of 6.4 is on their website for the smallest version. Figures are wrong but i assume they rounded them.

    Add say a 1kW well pump and the COP drops significantly. I know this probably wont run all the time the heat pump is but you would need to know this figure.

    Unfortunately I don't know any more since the Rep wouldn't call out despite repeated attempts and promises , they probably had no interest in a retrofit. It's just typical when you try get work done in this country.

    But it's a good question to ask about the well pump. I know our current pump consumes around 1 Kw as I can see it on the energy monitor.

    I'd like to be off of oil but retrofitting HP doesn't make financial sense, if it cost twice what an oil boiler cost then I'd be all for it but that's not going to happen so I'm not sure I'd be bothered spending all that money to be honest when I can just get away with 2 tanks of oil a year or a bit less.

    At this stage I'd nearly go back to coal because it's frustrating that no real alternative to oil exists, the only real alternative is proper electric heating that can be ran from all the excess wind energy. But at the current cost of electricity that makes no sense either.

    If we even had a fit for excess solar PV to the grid but no, taxpayers have to subsidise these companies for them to get rich instead and they even have to be paid when the wind doesn't blow a bit like the companies that own the tolls , the M4 I think it is, the company that looks after that toll has to be paid millions a year because traffic is less than predicted, you couldn't make up what goes on in Ireland but you can be sure they'll look after the interests of big business. Ireland INC.

    That was a bit of a rant but it frustrates me sometimes the way things are here.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 190 ✭✭declanobrennan


    Anyone out there with heat pump installs up for updating this thread with their up to date reviews? I'd certainly like to hear a broader range of scenarios as I try to decide to go for the tech or not.....


  • Registered Users Posts: 512 ✭✭✭Frozen Veg


    Would a 200L hot water tank be enough for a family of 5 with an A2W system?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,111 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Frozen Veg wrote: »
    Would a 200L hot water tank be enough for a family of 5 with an A2W system?

    How long is a piece of string! ;)

    It depends on the 5 people really and how long they like their showers.

    If they are power showers I’d say the last person could be getting a lukewarm shower some days. I’d go up to 300l if the price difference is small.

    You can also set the HP to auto top it up if it drops below a set temp so you won’t be stuck, just heating some water during expensive day rate electricity.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭fclauson


    Heatpump update - installed in a Passive House - typical Heating cost per year €150 to €200 / annum

    HPs are only as good as the insulation into which they are pushing their heat

    uninsulated an HP will not work well (nor will an open fire - it will just look nice)

    super insulated - HPs are great - they "Drip" in heart at a low level keeping the building at a perfect temp

    somewhere between - HPs are in between too !!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 172 ✭✭Cilar


    Would you recommend to leave hot towel rads on all the time? This causes the heat pump to never switch off, but I heard that having the heat pump cycle less is actually good.



  • Registered Users Posts: 343 ✭✭Bellie1


    Can someone explain the basics wet heat pumps? Can they be installed externally? House is tiny. Also do rads have to be replaced? Read on some forum that humungous rads were part of it. We have windows in house slightly open upto 4 hours a day, even in winter- is heat pump useless or could you have it operate for rest of day ( when windows closed).I need to google I know but so much info



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,276 ✭✭✭kenmc


    Yes they are externally mounted - they take the "heat", including down to zero and even sub zero, from the air; it's a bit like the reverse of a fridge. They really are best used with large radiators - i.e. underfloor heating, as they typicaly run at around 25ish degrees rather than 50, 60, whatever for oil and gas. Unless you have a well insulated, and airtight house, you will basically be pumping heat into the outside world. You can get away with draughty houses with oil and gas as the rads get too hot to touch and for a short while make the room warmer; then the heat dissipates and you have to hit 'boost' again. with heatpump there's not such an option, if you open windows and let in loads of cold air, the whole house will be cold for a day or 2 until it's recovered. Which is why typically you will see MHRV (mechanical ventilation with heat recovery) which controls the air exchange, using the warm air from the house which is being exhausted, to heat the colder incoming air from outside - this way you get fresh air but are pre-heating it using the already heated air from the house to reduce the difference in temperature between inside and outside - it typically runs 24x7.

    In short;

    • if you have very good insulation with a good level of airtightness
    • and have heat recover and not 4 inch vents in the walls
    • and are prepared to either install UFH or low-temp rads

    then A2W heatpump is worth a look. I've installed one 3.5 years ago in a new build, very airtight, hugely insulated, solid concrete walls internally and concrete first floor (i.e. huge thermal mass to 'soak up' heat and store it to release) and in the 3.5 years the heat pump has used 8868 kWh, mostly (>95%) at night rate, so circa 220 euro a year for heating and hot water.



  • Registered Users Posts: 343 ✭✭Bellie1


    Thanks so much kenmc. Regarding MHRV , is that something that companies do in Ireland or it it prohibitively expensive? The heat lung pump definitely wouldn't suit , I couldn't forego the fresh air . Will just get the solar panels and do other minor things like replacing back door and blocking up chimney. Thanks again for the explanation , survey guy never explained any of this (I guess I didn't ask the questions)



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,276 ✭✭✭kenmc


    You're welcome;MHRV is common in most new builds now, but its usually designed into the fabric of the building rather than being an add-on - you need ducting etc in every room. A friend of mine got it added to an extension/remodel of a house, but it was done while the house was gutted. You're not foregoing fresh air - you've a continuous feed of fresh air - the difference is it's not COLD fresh air and it is not dependent on the windiness or calmness either - it's a constant recirculation of air 24x7, but as I said it's usually in the initial build.



  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I've heard of A2W heatpumps coming out soon that will heat 60-80 Deg C aimed at direct gas/oil replacements.

    But there are already HP now that will heat to 50 Deg C or is there a catch ?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,276 ✭✭✭kenmc


    Mine gets over 50 every night of the year, for hot water tank. Panasonic aqurea 5kw monobloc 3.5 years installed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 559 ✭✭✭idc


    Saw the same online recently, Vattenfall in Netherlands releasing a new product and suggesting would be useful for UK (and Ireland as we have similar gas/oil boiler +rads setups), quick google revealed other companies (daikan, Hitachi, LG, Panasonic) also have high temperature heat pumps of 60-80 degrees.



  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I would switch if the price was right, the only thing that concerns me is the price of daytime electricity, will the HP switch in and out like it does for oil/gas or will it be running 24x7 etc ? I do have night meter also which I use for charging the car + dishwasher, washing machine and the immersion in the warmer months.

    The obvious concern would be that I'd probably have to upgrade to 16 Kva or even higher, 3 phase would be good as I can use the car charge point on 3 phase and it will support 11 kw on 3 phase, not sure if the HP could work off 3 phase ? Charge point alone is 7.5 Kw but it does have load balancing so if a couple of high loads kick in with the charge point the charge point backs off the power.

    Currently in 80's bungalow with original steel radiators and 35 Kw oil boiler, oversized for the house I'm told but it heats up extremely quick. The entire heating needs upgrading, I know I need better insulation and all that but the heating is priority over insulation at this point and if there was a drop in replacement for the oil boiler at a decent price I'd consider it, only cost of install + cost to run on day rate electricity is a concern, if it was going to cost around the same as oil to run a year then I'd consider it, currently using 1.5 - 1 and 3 quarter tanks of oil a year.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,276 ✭✭✭kenmc


    It switches in and out but with an old house with poor insulation\airtightness it will probably run a lot, so yeah you'll likely have big bills as you'll lose heat stored at night time rate quickly in the day. If you have 4" vents in the rooms even faster...



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,730 ✭✭✭poker--addict


    any recommendations for new pump (ground loop) installers? Doing some shopping around at moment.

    😎



  • Registered Users Posts: 343 ✭✭Bellie1


    Been googling alot and getting more bamboozled. Ductless MHRV seems to be an option..spoke to company in Dublin today and cost for 4 room house was about 4k and minimal disruption . We have 2 dogs so tbh that's alot of reason open windows..would MHRV help reduce smell?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,730 ✭✭✭poker--addict


    Heat Pumps Ireland are using a Thermia Calibra Eco Ground source pump. Anyone got experience of them or the pump? It’s a Swedish pump.


    from a previous post - thermia is danfoss

    😎



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