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Heat Pumps Performace - Request Feedback on installations

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  • 28-03-2008 12:56pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭


    PLEASE READ IN FULL BEFORE REPLYING . PLEASE REPLY WITH ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS AT THE END

    I would like to assemble a data base of our posters experiences of heat pumps performance as they have experienced it

    Preamble
    **********************************************************
    AFAIK the most comprehensive lab testing of heat pumps is here , in ( Swtizerland )

    http://institute.ntb.ch/ies/competences/heat-pump-test-center-wpz/test-results.html?L=1

    This Austrian Company is also engaged in heat pump testing as well as participation in the DACH heat pump quality assurance scheme ( sadly only in operation in Germany Austria and Switzerland ) -My thanks to Wops for this link

    http://www.arsenal.ac.at/products/pr..._gt_wp_en.html

    This report ( sorry in German language )

    http://www.agenda-energie-lahr.de/WP...ht2006_07.html

    is a result of field tests carried out by a not for profit society concerned with energy efficiency / CO2 emmisions . more about them here ....
    http://www.agenda-energie-lahr.de/index.html

    please turn to page 14 of the report

    luft - warmep mean air to water
    erd warmep means ground source heat pump

    the grey area to the left are the results of agenda-energie-lahr findings . the other columns are published figures of other bodies

    figures like 2.8 , 2.3 , 2.65 etc are the COP's
    figures below in brackets indicate the number of heat pumps field tested

    a loose translation of the text above the test results is " why should a consumer pay €7k more for an air to water heat pump , which will produce more CO2 and be less energy efficient than an highly efficient gas boiler . with this technology we ( Germany ) can not meet our energy reduction targets untill 2020"

    IF YOU ARE STILL READING THANK YOU

    ***********************************************************

    I would like to establish a sort of "feild test" here

    PLEASE DONT REPLY UNLESS YOU CAN ENTER INFO BELOW . THERE ARE OTHER THREADS ABOUT HEAT PUMPS WHERE OTHER MATTERS MAY BE RAISED

    DONT MENTION ANY TRADE NAMES OR COMPANIES

    ***********************************************************

    YEAR INSTALLED
    M2 FLOOR AREA
    AIR TO WATER
    GROUND SOURCE ( HORIZONTAL )
    GROUND SOURCE ( VERTICAL )
    UFH?
    RADIATORS?
    BOTH?
    HOW WELL INSULATED WOULD YOU SAY THE BUILDING IS ?
    COST OF INSTALLATION
    ANNUAL ESB BILL
    ANNUAL ESB UNIT CONSUMPTION
    ARE YOU GLAD YOU USED A HEAT PUMP


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 21,676 ✭✭✭✭smashey


    Stickied.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,150 ✭✭✭holdfast


    YEAR INSTALLED 2006
    M2 FLOOR AREA 2500
    AIR TO WATER no
    GROUND SOURCE ( HORIZONTAL )
    GROUND SOURCE ( VERTICAL ) yes
    UFH? yes
    RADIATORS?no
    BOTH?no
    HOW WELL INSULATED WOULD YOU SAY THE BUILDING IS ? stardard part l
    ANNUAL ESB BILL: for unit 450-500 euros
    ANNUAL ESB UNIT CONSUMPTION 17kw on average 2.5 hrs a night for 5months. (good orienation)
    ARE YOU GLAD YOU USED A HEAT PUMP yes

    to clear up i have time and zoned control and set a temp of 20 degs in living areas and 18/19 degs in others. i use night saver rate for electricity 7p

    air to water have a poor COP when compared to other heat pump systems


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,150 ✭✭✭holdfast


    Just a few other points the cost of the heat pump including drilling 13000 euro.

    my orientation is good with no obstructions. This could reduce heating bill by 10% .airthightness is 3 ac/hr( actually need to put HRV and will in coming conversion upstairs)


  • Subscribers Posts: 41,141 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    holdfast wrote: »
    Just a few other points the cost of the heat pump including drilling 13000 euro.

    my orientation is good with no obstructions. This could reduce heating bill by 10% .airthightness is 3 ac/hr( actually need to put HRV and will in coming conversion upstairs)

    did you get a professional test carried out??

    did you use sealing membranes??

    what is your build method?? typical 310 cavity wall??
    contractor or direct labour?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,150 ✭✭✭holdfast


    did you get a professional test carried out?? I did it myself, airthightness is 3 ac/hr should have read Air Permeability@ 50 Pa (m³/h.m²) 2.95( I am civil engineer so there is the problem ) hope that clears that one up and is ac/hr= 0.1475

    did you use sealing membranes?? no

    what is your build method?? typical 310 cavity wall?? standard timber frame, double slabbed. I belive this has made the difference
    contractor or direct labour? myself and a few buddies

    sorry once again for the error


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  • Registered Users Posts: 950 ✭✭✭jessy


    holdfast wrote: »
    YEAR INSTALLED 2006
    M2 FLOOR AREA 2500
    AIR TO WATER no
    GROUND SOURCE ( HORIZONTAL )
    GROUND SOURCE ( VERTICAL ) yes
    UFH? yes
    RADIATORS?no
    BOTH?no
    HOW WELL INSULATED WOULD YOU SAY THE BUILDING IS ? stardard part l
    ANNUAL ESB BILL: for unit 450-500 euros
    ANNUAL ESB UNIT CONSUMPTION 17kw on average 2.5 hrs a night for 5months. (good orienation)
    ARE YOU GLAD YOU USED A HEAT PUMP yes

    to clear up i have time and zoned control and set a temp of 20 degs in living areas and 18/19 degs in others. i use night saver rate for electricity 7p

    air to water have a poor COP when compared to other heat pump systems

    What was the installation cost of the system?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭KAGY


    • YEAR INSTALLED Commissioned early 2005
    • M2 FLOOR AREA 190m2
    • GROUND SOURCE ( HORIZONTAL )
    • UFH D/S - winter run time 6 hr at night, two runs of 3hrs each during the day, on 24hr if really cold snap expected
    • Rads upstairs rarely on
    • DHW - 3 hr night time run, 40deg
    • HOW WELL INSULATED WOULD YOU SAY THE BUILDING IS ? 140mm Fibreglass T/f house; suspicious of build quality though - I thinks there's gaps in the insulation some places (top and/or bottom of walls)
    • COST OF INSTALLATION €10k for unit etc, €17K for rest of plumbing inc UFH etc and normal sanitary (sorry no breakdown)
    • ANNUAL ESB BILL: Nov 2006 - Nov 2007 €1470 (don't know how much is HP)
    • ANNUAL ESB UNIT CONSUMPTION
      2007: Day Rate: 5417 Night Rate:6711
    • ARE YOU GLAD YOU USED A HEAT PUMP
      Currently not working due to a refrigerant leak or stuck TSV, and finding it hard to get a service engineer in, so probably not the best time to answer that one!
      :) Like: convenience, cleanliness, not reliant on fuel deliveries
      :( Dislike: slow dynamics, not as cheap as expected, the fact that it's broken


  • Registered Users Posts: 24 mossy74


    YEAR INSTALLED: 2007
    M2 FLOOR AREA: 340
    AIR TO WATER: No
    GROUND SOURCE ( HORIZONTAL ): Yes
    GROUND SOURCE ( VERTICAL ): No
    UFH? Yes
    RADIATORS? No
    BOTH? No
    HOW WELL INSULATED WOULD YOU SAY THE BUILDING IS ? Not sure how to quantify this but is standard with additional 50mm on inside of external walls +underfloor insulation at ground floor, attic well insulated also. Have double glazed windows but not happy about air tightness of them...
    COST OF INSTALLATION: 30,000 (entire system including UFH)
    ANNUAL ESB BILL: I estimate €1400 on heatpump
    ANNUAL ESB UNIT CONSUMPTION
    ARE YOU GLAD YOU USED A HEAT PUMP: After one year, I think so, I wouldn't answer with a whole hearted yes. Costs more to run than I thought it would, no way it will pay back in near future, on very cold days does not heat the house well enough though may be due to heat loss. Support/Service from supplier very bad even though they're one of the more established suppliers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭KAGY


    KAGY wrote: »
      • ANNUAL ESB BILL: Nov 2006 - Nov 2007 €1470 (don't know how much is HP)
        <snip>Currently not working due to a refrigerant leak <snip>
      Just a follow up; heatpump was loosing refrigerant slowly since manufacture so the costs are probably up slightly due to this.


    • Registered Users Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭topcatcbr


      KAGY wrote: »
      • ANNUAL ESB BILL: Nov 2006 - Nov 2007 €1470 (don't know how much is HP)
      • ANNUAL ESB UNIT CONSUMPTION
        2007: Day Rate: 5417 Night Rate:6711
      • COST OF INSTALLATION €10k for unit etc, €17K for rest of plumbing inc UFH etc and normal sanitary (sorry no breakdown)

      This seem a high cost alternative to gas or oil


      average esb bill €120 every 2 months x 6 = €720

      1470 - 720 = 750 in 2006 would buy at least 9 months oil averaging for summer

      i know oil goes up in price but so does esb

      assuming €250 saving ber year and cost of system over oil based system €12K very rough estimate (would welcome correction)


      48 year payback.


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    • Registered Users Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭KAGY


      topcatcbr wrote: »
      This seem a high cost alternative to gas or oil
      average esb bill €120 every 2 months x 6 = €720
      1470 - 720 = 750 in 2006 would buy at least 9 months oil averaging for summer i know oil goes up in price but so does esb
      assuming €250 saving ber year and cost of system over oil based system €12K very rough estimate (would welcome correction) 48 year payback.

      Just some notes on the installation and location that might be applicable:
      • as i mentioned before the system was leaking so that had driven up the consumption
      • I hadn't got around to changing the light bulbs (just had the ones the builder had in) my estimation of the lighting charge was about €250 p/y (lots of halogen spots (for shame! :o )
      • People in similar size houses to mine are getting 2 fills of oil at €600 a go
      • My standing rate for elec is 180+ a year (rural nightsaver) compared to €105 in cities (ordinary urban)


      And even if you are right, by the time I'm 80 I'll be laughing with my extra 250 a year :D
      but wait a minute, interest on 12K over a 30 year mortgage is .... gulp


    • Registered Users Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭KAGY


      Great idea for a thread, may I suggest that future posters also state what controls they have and what temp they have the controls set at etc. Only then could we build a better picture of the cost (savings?)


    • Closed Accounts Posts: 2 justineryan


      YEAR INSTALLED - 2006
      M2 FLOOR AREA - 300
      AIR TO WATER -yes
      GROUND SOURCE ( HORIZONTAL ) no
      GROUND SOURCE ( VERTICAL ) -no
      UFH? YES
      RADIATORS? - no
      BOTH? no
      HOW WELL INSULATED WOULD YOU SAY THE BUILDING IS ? 100mm walls, 125mm roof, kingspan,
      COST OF INSTALLATION 10k
      ANNUAL ESB BILL - 1200 - all, electricity, water and heating,
      ANNUAL ESB UNIT CONSUMPTION - no time to check
      ARE YOU GLAD YOU USED A HEAT PUMP - yes,
      Not happy with suppliers but happy with the product. House on a bed of rock so not feasible to do ground source pump or borehole (could do but the cost... )

      Have solar installed this year for the water so will see how bill reduces - recycling the grant for the pump into solar.


    • Closed Accounts Posts: 14 p38dse


      YEAR INSTALLED - 2006
      M2 FLOOR AREA - 300
      AIR TO WATER -No
      GROUND SOURCE ( HORIZONTAL ) YES
      GROUND SOURCE ( VERTICAL ) -no
      UFH? YES
      RADIATORS? - no
      BOTH? no
      HOW WELL INSULATED WOULD YOU SAY THE BUILDING IS ? pumped walls, and insulated plaster board, 12' in attic
      COST OF INSTALLATION 12500k
      ANNUAL ESB BILL - 1500- all, electricity, water and heating,
      ANNUAL ESB UNIT CONSUMPTION - no time to check
      ARE YOU GLAD YOU USED A HEAT PUMP - yes,

      All bulbs in house ae 100 watt inherited from builders need to be changed, period includes drying out and 3-4 months of comptetion work on house


    • Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭Home4Life


      I am considering going Horizontal HeatPump instead of vertical.

      I have a 140m2 house.
      the garden is 30m long, I guessing about 10m wide, so 300m2.

      Originally I assumed vertical would be the only way to go.
      However, a useful poster iullustrated how MHRV reduces the need for heating, and as I am putting one in, I will have less of a need for high capacity on the heat pump.

      I am aiming for a B rated house at least with MHRV,
      so perhaps 150-300 m2 horizontal HP might be sufficient?

      I have heard costs of €20k for vertical - how much would equivalent horizontal be?

      Many thanks,
      H4L


    • Closed Accounts Posts: 17 Kayaker


      YEAR INSTALLED 2004
      M2 FLOOR AREA 200
      AIR TO WATER no
      GROUND SOURCE ( HORIZONTAL )Yes
      GROUND SOURCE ( VERTICAL )
      UFH? yes
      RADIATORS?no
      BOTH?no
      HOW WELL INSULATED WOULD YOU SAY THE BUILDING IS ? timber frame, 150mm in walls and 300mm in roof
      ANNUAL ESB BILL: 670 euros of energy
      ANNUAL ESB UNIT CONSUMPTION House 9194kw. Heat pump, 4500kw
      ARE YOU GLAD YOU USED A HEAT PUMP yes

      I have a thermia, to which i have done some mods to. (double insulated water tank, timer on hot water and used temp set back function) each room temp controlled.


    • Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭rebellad


      YEAR INSTALLED 2009
      M2 FLOOR AREA 250
      AIR TO WATER Yes
      GROUND SOURCE ( HORIZONTAL )
      GROUND SOURCE ( VERTICAL )
      UFH? yes
      RADIATORS?no
      BOTH?no
      HOW WELL INSULATED WOULD YOU SAY THE BUILDING IS ? concrete 100mm in walls, dry lined, 100 mm insulation in ground floor, 30 upstairs and 200mm in roof
      ANNUAL ESB BILL: Approx €40 pm so far!!
      ANNUAL ESB UNIT CONSUMPTION
      ARE YOU GLAD YOU USED A HEAT PUMP yes


    • Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭liamolaighin


      rebellad wrote: »
      YEAR INSTALLED 2009
      M2 FLOOR AREA 250
      AIR TO WATER Yes
      GROUND SOURCE ( HORIZONTAL )
      GROUND SOURCE ( VERTICAL )
      UFH? yes
      RADIATORS?no
      BOTH?no
      HOW WELL INSULATED WOULD YOU SAY THE BUILDING IS ? concrete 100mm in walls, dry lined, 100 mm insulation in ground floor, 30 upstairs and 200mm in roof
      ANNUAL ESB BILL: Approx €40 pm so far!!
      ANNUAL ESB UNIT CONSUMPTION
      ARE YOU GLAD YOU USED A HEAT PUMP yes
      Hey just wondered how pump is performing now in the cold wewather. Is house warm enough. How are ESB costs going now in the coldest period of the year. Cheers


    • Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭rebellad


      Hey just wondered how pump is performing now in the cold wewather. Is house warm enough. How are ESB costs going now in the coldest period of the year. Cheers

      It has performed quite well over the recent cold spell, I had one issue with the drip tray freezing alright and I must get onto the supplier about it. House was warm for most of the cold spell except for the time the drip tray froze which prevented the fan from working. It took a while to get the heat back up but I think this was more to do with the ufh rather than the air to water unit. (We were away at the time so didn't notice until we came home two days later). With regards to the esb costs, I have been taking a reading from the esb meter every monday for the last month and these are the average daily costs :

      21st Dec - 28 Dec €5.80
      28 Dec - 4th Jan €6.37
      4th-11th Jan €6.83
      11-18th Jan €6

      These costs include the standing charge + vat etc and are for all electricity consumption in the house.

      The one thing I would say is it is like any heating systems really in the fact that as much as the installer can recommend settings for you it takes a bit of tweaking to get it right. We had some days where it was a bit chilly and other days where it was extremely warm, but hopefully when the next cold spell comes along the settings should now be ok!!!


    • Registered Users Posts: 256 ✭✭ninjaBob


      YEAR INSTALLED : 2010
      M2 FLOOR AREA : 260

      AIR TO WATER
      GROUND SOURCE ( HORIZONTAL ) 4 x 300m runs over 1/2 acre

      GROUND SOURCE ( VERTICAL )
      UFH?
      RADIATORS?

      BOTH : Radiators in the attic for overflow
      HOW WELL INSULATED WOULD YOU SAY THE BUILDING IS : very well, Combination Cylinder is heavily insulated.

      COST OF INSTALLATION :€25,000 for everything (Including Plumbing)

      ANNUAL ESB BILL : €450 for the first 3 months (heat pump on 24/7 drying out the house)

      ANNUAL ESB UNIT CONSUMPTION :
      ARE YOU GLAD YOU USED A HEAT PUMP : Yes, but I am eager to see the annual heating bill. So far we are very happy

      We went with a combination cylinder and have connected our back-boiler into the cylinder. Our back-boiler is contributing to heating the underfloor & radiators as well as the hotwater. When the temperature hits 55, the excess is pumped to the radiators in the attic, when it hits 60+ an alarm sounds.

      We have the option to connect another 2 heat sources to the cylinder. As it stands the heatpump holds the temperature @ 55 degrees without using the booster function.


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    • Registered Users Posts: 493 ✭✭dryan


      ninjaBob wrote: »
      GROUND SOURCE ( HORIZONTAL ) 4 x 300m runs over 1/2 acre
      .

      1200M of horizontal piping???


    • Registered Users Posts: 256 ✭✭ninjaBob


      I could be wrong on this, I know we have 4 loops in the ground. I'll see if I can confirm the total length of each loop.


    • Registered Users Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭heinbloed


      Here a data collection of some hundred HP installations:

      http://wp-verbrauch.in-tostedt.de/index.php?lang=en

      It's a Germany based web page in English language (and many other languages as well), allowing users of heat pumps entering their HP data - after registration.

      The average air-to-water COP seems to be at around 2.6 .....
      Everyone is invited to share their experience.
      But telling the name of the manufacturer/company is a MUST on this web page....

      Correction:
      Instead of " The average air-to-water COP seems to be at around 2.6 ...." it should say "The average anual efficiency of a heating system equiped with an air/water HP seems to be 2.6 .... " .
      My excuses


    • Registered Users Posts: 587 ✭✭✭JB81


      YEAR INSTALLED 2011
      M2 FLOOR AREA 180
      AIR TO WATER Yes
      UFH? yes
      RADIATORS?no
      BOTH?no
      HOW WELL INSULATED WOULD YOU SAY THE BUILDING IS ? Very well insulated, 200mm pump filled cavity, 150mm in floors, 300mm in attic, air tightness done, was aiming for A3 rating but have not done final BER.
      ANNUAL ESB BILL: August-September €110 ( no heating on ), October - November €130 ( Heating at night only ), December - January €210 ( heating at night and boosted in evenings ), all prices including normal ESB, cooking, hot water etc.. )
      ARE YOU GLAD YOU USED A HEAT PUMP yes very


    • Registered Users Posts: 1,013 ✭✭✭Curious Geroge


      Could I ask the Air to Water HP posters to update with there HP suppliers and models. Thanks


    • Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭L driver


      YEAR INSTALLED 2012
      M2 FLOOR AREA 280 with ufh, attic converted ~65m2-70m2 no heating
      AIR TO WATER no
      GROUND SOURCE ( HORIZONTAL ) yes
      GROUND SOURCE ( VERTICAL ) no
      UFH? yes
      RADIATORS? no
      BOTH? no
      HOW WELL INSULATED WOULD YOU SAY THE BUILDING IS ? Very well
      ANNUAL ESB BILL: Approx heatpump has used ~€550 in 15 - 16months
      ANNUAL ESB UNIT CONSUMPTION heatpump has used ~2800 since installation
      ARE YOU GLAD YOU USED A HEAT PUMP Yes


    • Registered Users Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭fclauson


      YEAR INSTALLED 2012
      M2 FLOOR AREA 350 - all in a single zone
      AIR TO WATER Yes no
      UFH? yes
      RADIATORS? no
      HOW WELL INSULATED WOULD YOU SAY THE BUILDING IS ? 200mm
      ANNUAL ESB BILL: approx - for both heatign & h/w 3200Kwh - most night - some day and some PV
      ARE YOU GLAD YOU USED A HEAT PUMP Yes

      A HP is ideal for a low energy build as it works out itself how much heat to add and augmenting with PV means you can end up with zero running costs


    • Registered Users Posts: 12,090 ✭✭✭✭KCross


      [QUOTE
      A HP is ideal for a low energy build as it works out itself how much heat to add and augmenting with PV means you can end up with zero running costs[/QUOTE]


      fclauson
      Can you give us some details on the PV system. What have you installed, how does it work, what are the capital costs, what energy does it produce over a 12mth period, do you feed electricity back to the network or what?

      thanks


    • Registered Users Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭fclauson


      KCross wrote: »
      [QUOTE
      A HP is ideal for a low energy build as it works out itself how much heat to add and augmenting with PV means you can end up with zero running costs


      fclauson
      Can you give us some details on the PV system. What have you installed, how does it work, what are the capital costs, what energy does it produce over a 12mth period, do you feed electricity back to the network or what?

      thanks[/QUOTE]
      HP - Danfoss
      PV - 16 SqM - coasts around €7K - grid connected (via ESB)
      return in year 1 = 4200Kwh
      Demand from HP 4180Kwh

      therefore no running costs !!


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    • Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭Mixupat


      Hi, It would be great if anyone could post some recent figures on heat pumps they are using both ground and air source.


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