How would Ireland do in a War?

IRLConor

daithicarr wrote: »

Still not much to start an inserection with, but to send people out armed with what we have would just result in a lot of dead young men on our part a few rifles and shotguns, plus 120 hand guns aint much against any military force ,

TBH, it would take some set of nuts to go after an invasion force with a shotgun or a handgun. How many firearms were available to civilians in Ireland in the early 20th century?

(Also, the number of handguns in the country is much larger than that now. 2004 was the first year that they could be licensed. The High Court only issued its ruling at the end of July 2004 so 120 represents less than 6 months worth of licensing.)

Fratton Fred

daithicarr wrote: »

i dont think we face any credible threat to invasion. any invasion of ireland would have to be carried out with England and the EU's will. we have america to one side and Europe to the other. if some one can over come them to get to us, well were ****ed.

Europe and the US aside, Britain sees Ireland as being strategically important. there is no way britain would allow a hostile country to invade Ireland.

Pathfinder

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Europe and the US aside, Britain sees Ireland as being strategically important. there is no way britain would allow a hostile country to invade Ireland.

Or allow a hostile power to destabalise Ireland via militant republicanism.

the GALL

Pathfinder wrote: »

Or allow a hostile power to destabalise Ireland via militant republicanism.

even if that was the will of the people??

Riddle101

daithicarr wrote: »

On what grounds do you question my "irishness" , maybe you could define Irishness while your at it.

I am merely pointing out that we dont really have the military ability to defend our selves, or the capacity
i was not trivialising the 1798 rebelion, i was just poitning out that we dont really have much in the way of modern weaponry that was help facilitate a resistance.
Sure there are about 250,000 legaly held firearms, but they are mostly shotguns or old hunting rifles. i sure as hell wouldnt want to be up against a modern army that can blow me to bits a long time before i could get close enough to use my shotgun, and with body armours and other protections used by modern infantry id be better of weilding my shotgun as a club.

Shotguns and Hunting Rifles? What about those Steyrs, GPMGs and BAPs, surely they count don't they

OS119

the GALL wrote: »

even if that was the will of the people??

if 'the will of the people' - as the product of an educated, informed and democratically arrived at debate - is to intentionally jeopardise the interests of a vastly more more powerful state (which has a historically proven track record of, if neccesary, protecting its interests with considerable force) then the likely consequences of that decision are entirely deserved (not the word i'm looking for, but a bit like the word i'm looking for). and foreseeable.

much as we might like the world to be rather more courtroom and rather less jungle, the ultimate rule in the world is force. if you can impose your will, and no-one, through either force or economics, is able - or willing - to accept the potential consequences of challenging the imposition of that will, then you've won, regardless of the morality of your actions.

OS119

Riddle101 wrote: »

Shotguns and Hunting Rifles? What about those Steyrs, GPMGs and BAPs, surely they count don't they

no, they don't.

they only count during occupations - and only then during occupations where the occupier doesn't hang 50 locals for each of its own soldiers killed - or use heavy Artillery as part of its 'intimate infantry support'.

occupations have somewhat gone out of fashion of late, and that political fact married to the frankly ridiculous damage that a modern air force can do to a state without ever getting within range of most Surface-to-Air defensive systems means that 'conventional' invasions are uneccessary unless you really, really need the land, rather than just need to break things until they are no threat to you or your interests and then go home.

Ireland has nothing anyone needs on, or under its landmass. its offshore oil and gas can be 'hijacked' with little effort by any european power who likes the look of them, and should the use of Irish ports or airfields be required by some other power for the prosecution of a war in which Ireland was not involved, they could be taken by force and any resistance to that 'land-grab' could be physically and politcally neutralised by the above mentioned use - or threat of use - of Air Power.

not nice, but thats the ****ty end of the being 'small and inoffensive' stick.

the GALL

OS119 wrote: »

if 'the will of the people' - as the product of an educated, informed and democratically arrived at debate - is to intentionally jeopardise the interests of a vastly more more powerful state (which has a historically proven track record of, if neccesary, protecting its interests with considerable force) then the likely consequences of that decision are entirely deserved (not the word i'm looking for, but a bit like the word i'm looking for). and foreseeable.

much as we might like the world to be rather more courtroom and rather less jungle, the ultimate rule in the world is force. if you can impose your will, and no-one, through either force or economics, is able - or willing - to accept the potential consequences of challenging the imposition of that will, then you've won, regardless of the morality of your actions.

well put.
Thats (nearly) every countries forgein(sp?) policy.
For a country to invade Ireland for what ever reason and nothing short of killing every citizen in the country, allies present and future and also enslaving any survivors, then the answer is Ireland would prevail and be victorious against any attacking force .
You'll never beat the Irish:D:D:D

daithicarr

i think we would do just as well as any other nation of a similar size. but we wouldnt be immediatly equiped to deal with a military threat, like any country we could build up if there was a threat. we are wealthy so we could probably buy a lot of weapons.

But as it currently stands, if some country woke up in the morning and decided to invade us. we would have little to offer as resistance. some public firearms and the fairly small amount of weapons held by our defence forces would be completely inadequte. The rules of war have changed a good bit since 1920. a few thousand men with Rifle doesnt have the same impact it had then.

sharps

Riddle101 wrote: »

This is more of a retorical question but i wonder what your opinions are on how Ireland would do in a war. Do you think we'd get trashed and lose, be able to fight and hold out against and enemy until we can start negotiating peace or so you think we'd actually win. Obviously no one really knows what would happen because it depends on the country but let' say i don't know Cuba(Only an example) decides they want to invade us. Do you think we'd do well to defend us and be able to stick it to them and show the rest of the world we maybe small but we got teeth, or would it be suicide.

I say this because the PDF has come along way in the last 15 years maybe more or less. It's no longer that small peace keeping army with lack of proper weaponary and experience. Now the PDF is more professional and has evolved since those days, and i gotta tell you, i feel a lot more safer with the PDF now then i would if we went back to the 60's or 70's(No offence to any former soldiers of course). So what do you think would happen.

I personally and i'm not being biased but given the circumstances i'd say Ireland would do alright, we may be outnumbered by Cuba and a lot of armies but our ferocity on the battlefield could well keep us in the battle as long as we don't give in. One thing i'd be rather worried about though would be if the enemy used Naval and Air support then i'd be rather worried, because i feel our Air and Naval corps(again no offence to any Naval and Air corp soldiers) are a bit lacking in the ability of proper naval warfare. But none the less we have our ground defence such as the Air Defence and i'm sure we proberly have a naval defence too, can anybody clarify?

Anyway I'm done, now's your turn(hopefully)

With only 10,000 in the army, 1ooo in the navy and only a couple of hundred in the air corps, we couldnt defend ourselves against the smurfs. We can only bearly field one proper battalion for the un.

minidazzler

sharps wrote: »

With only 10,000 in the army, 1ooo in the navy and only a couple of hundred in the air corps, we couldnt defend ourselves against the smurfs. We can only bearly field one proper battalion for the un.

There are just over 8500 in the Army, 1600 + (around) in the navy and ~ 950 in the Air Corps.

We are small but then we have the Reserves.

13,000 (on the Books at least) in the Army Reserve, 400ish in the Naval Service Reserve.

We are grand with the amount we have!

arybvtcw0eolkf

minidazzler wrote: »

There are just over 8500 in the Army, 1600 + (around) in the navy and ~ 950 in the Air Corps.

We are small but then we have the Reserves.

13,000 (on the Books at least) in the Army Reserve, 400ish in the Naval Service Reserve.

We are grand with the amount we have!

Yea but if a detachment of Wombles joined the Smurfs we're fecked.

Anyway, although the thread is a bit of Walter Mitty I'll get serious for a moment.

We've never really been in any danger of invasion, not since those bloody Vikings. We'll never be the aggressor and since the peace process kicked in in Northern Ireland our greatest threat is gangland.

So, could our defence forces be used (effectively) to combat gangland, we are after all an aid to the civil power's - time to use us?.

OS119

Mairt wrote: »

Yea but if a detachment of Wombles joined the Smurfs we're fecked.

Anyway, although the thread is a bit of Walter Mitty I'll get serious for a moment.

We've never really been in any danger of invasion, not since those bloody Vikings. We'll never be the aggressor and since the peace process kicked in in Northern Ireland our greatest threat is gangland.

So, could our defence forces be used (effectively) to combat gangland, we are after all an aid to the civil power's - time to use us?.

your question, a very valid one, perhaps is the question arising not just for the DF, but for the government - and society as a whole.

given that there is no longer a subversion/terrorist threat to the state, and no conceivable conventional threat to the state or its territories (well, not one you could fight for more that 24hrs even if you increaced your defence budget 10-fold), what is the point of the DF?

the debate is between an expeditionary force able to operate worldwide alongside other 1st world forces in pursuit of whatever you choose, or a Gengarmerie/Coastguard force where the resources of the DF act in support of the GS.

the arguments for the former have been made before - indeed by me - and they appear to be shared by the government (though of course without the cash required to acheive the objective), however a billion €uro a year would fund a force well able to a) swamp particular areas with 'Gendarmes' during particular anti-gang operations, b) provide significant ISTAR (Intelligence, Surveilence, Targetting, Analysis and Reconaisance) support to GS in the shape of Aircraft, SIGINT, surveilence trained personnel and firearms trained officers, and c) immeasurably strengthen your border/coastline security.

daithicarr

i think retaining some small defence forces is a good idea, we were caught with our pants around our ankles in 1939 despite plenty or warnings and again in 1969 when the troubles broke out.

You can never tell whats install in the future. while there is always the potential for violence in and over the north, we should maintain some capacity

darkman2

Riddle101 wrote: »

This is more of a retorical question but i wonder what your opinions are on how Ireland would do in a war. Do you think we'd get trashed and lose, be able to fight and hold out against and enemy until we can start negotiating peace or so you think we'd actually win. Obviously no one really knows what would happen because it depends on the country but let' say i don't know Cuba(Only an example) decides they want to invade us. Do you think we'd do well to defend us and be able to stick it to them and show the rest of the world we maybe small but we got teeth, or would it be suicide.

I say this because the PDF has come along way in the last 15 years maybe more or less. It's no longer that small peace keeping army with lack of proper weaponary and experience. Now the PDF is more professional and has evolved since those days, and i gotta tell you, i feel a lot more safer with the PDF now then i would if we went back to the 60's or 70's(No offence to any former soldiers of course). So what do you think would happen.

I personally and i'm not being biased but given the circumstances i'd say Ireland would do alright, we may be outnumbered by Cuba and a lot of armies but our ferocity on the battlefield could well keep us in the battle as long as we don't give in. One thing i'd be rather worried about though would be if the enemy used Naval and Air support then i'd be rather worried, because i feel our Air and Naval corps(again no offence to any Naval and Air corp soldiers) are a bit lacking in the ability of proper naval warfare. But none the less we have our ground defence such as the Air Defence and i'm sure we proberly have a naval defence too, can anybody clarify?

Anyway I'm done, now's your turn(hopefully)

The simple fact is Ireland has never had the capacity to defend itself under any circumstances. We are in a very precarious posistion if a war was to break out close to our shores - some seem to believe this cant and wont happen. Never mind what the department of defence says about training etc - we are in very serious trouble if/when war breaks out close to us. The reason is because of Irelands feckless penny pinching attitude to even taking any responsibility for even a skeleton force that would make an aggressor's time here 'uncomfortable'. Right now Ireland is seen in Europe as the weakest and rightly so. We are the weakest. We actually have no defence capability at all.

Make no mistake about it

1. We have NO air defence
2. We have NO naval defence
3. We have a mickey mouse 'army' that has no credible firepower and only a few APC's that would not equip a single battalion and only has 12,000 permanent troops (which IIRC cannot even march in formation properly! - and thats the 'permanent' ones) most of which are deaf at the same time.

Thats what happens with no investment. The first priorty of any government is to protect and establish its borders. We have never done that.

I wish the Irish people actually knew how vulnerable we are instead of mouthing off about neutrality as an excuse. We cant even defend that!

We spend roughly a billion a year on defence - this would need to be multiplied by at least 5.

ciaran2008

Say another country declared war on Ireland (for a reason use your imagination)
European defence ministers would convene a meeting as a matter of urgency and should any form of military force approach European air space or waters the UK, Spain, Sweden, France, Italy, Germany etc would all scramble fighter jets to intercept the enemy and then NATO, the UN, European Parliament and even Congress would hold emergency meetings etc. So yeah I think were safe people!

TheInquisitor

In general ireland has a decent army. We have the latest weapons etc but we are seriously lacking in the area of tanks. We have 0 air power and enough air defense to defend a quarter of Dublin. I think the only way ireland would win against an invader is if it just defended the big cities and towns where they could launch hit and run attacks.

We just dont have the numbers... Although 74 million people do claim irish citizenship... so maybe they'd come back and join the fight!

OS119

ciaran2008 wrote: »

Say another country declared war on Ireland (for a reason use your imagination)
European defence ministers would convene a meeting as a matter of urgency and should any form of military force approach European air space or waters the UK, Spain, Sweden, France, Italy, Germany etc would all scramble fighter jets to intercept the enemy and then NATO, the UN, European Parliament and even Congress would hold emergency meetings etc. So yeah I think were safe people!

actually a rather more realistic scenario is this:

North Sea Oil and Gas is running out, Europe is decommisioning is nuclear power stations and has nothing to replace them with, and the Russians are playing silly buggers with Europes Oil and Gas supply for some marginal willy-waving contest in Eastern Europe. Britain, Norway, France, Germany, Spain and Italy see a small country on their western seaboard that has no defensive capability, a large offshore Oil and Gas field, and who'se economy was built with subsidies from western Europe.

they decide that perhaps this country would like to make a 'contribution' to the economic well-being and energy security of the EU that previously had given it so much wealth.

they send their Navies to 'persuade' this little country with no defensive capability and who stands aloof from mutual defence treaties....

the US Congress says nothing, because this internal EU squabble brings more Oil and Gas onto the market and therefore brings the price of US petrol down.

no idea who this little country could be though, but if the lights start to dim in western Europe they might find themselves sans recently exploited offshore Oil and Gas fields....

ETA: i have to ask, what exactly has Ireland done for the UK, Spain, Sweden, France, Italy, Germany etc to deserve such resolute defence?

ciaran2008

OS119 wrote: »

actually a rather more realistic scenario is this:

North Sea Oil and Gas is running out, Europe is decommisioning is nuclear power stations and has nothing to replace them with, and the Russians are playing silly buggers with Europes Oil and Gas supply for some marginal willy-waving contest in Eastern Europe. Britain, Norway, France, Germany, Spain and Italy see a small country on their western seaboard that has no defensive capability, a large offshore Oil and Gas field, and who'se economy was built with subsidies from western Europe.

they decide that perhaps this country would like to make a 'contribution' to the economic well-being and energy security of the EU that previously had given it so much wealth.

they send their Navies to 'persuade' this little country with no defensive capability and who stands aloof from mutual defence treaties....

the US Congress says nothing, because this internal EU squabble brings more Oil and Gas onto the market and therefore brings the price of US petrol down.

no idea who this little country could be though, but if the lights start to dim in western Europe they might find themselves sans recently exploited offshore Oil and Gas fields....

ETA: i have to ask, what exactly has Ireland done for the UK, Spain, Sweden, France, Italy, Germany etc to deserve such resolute defence?

Realistic?? Dont know what givs you that idea!! Large offshore oil and gas field??

European Defense Community (EDC) thats all Ireland needs!!

cros13

hurmph...

The thing is Irish ppl on the whole assume we possess a defensive capability which we do not. Despite the fact that our military capabilities affect our place in the international community and our intelligence capabilities affect our economic health.

It's well known that throughout history and indeed today, the intelligence resources of nations have been used for the purposes of commercial espionage.
G2 and the gardai do not have the capability to defend us or our livelihoods.
I work on DoD contracts, I know this first hand. I've met the people involved and they didn't impress.

We need, as a society, to make a decision. Either provide the funding for the defence of our nation, or disband the DF entirely.

If we were to follow the path of providing protection for our country the prudent course would be to provide a small effective force trained and equipped towards the assumed reality that they would be facing a numerically superior foe.

One of the best sources of equipment would be norway and sweden.
Sweden made the decision not to join regional alliances or align themselves with any such group. They also made the choice to source the majority of their military hardware internally. Sweden excels in the production of anti-armor weaponry and aircraft. Norway with it's extensive coastline and marine resources has again sources internally its miltary hardware.

My view of an irish DF with optimum bang for buck would be as follows:

Of course significant changes to the training regimens for all services.


Air Corps:

Reconstituted as an air force independent from the army.
3 Air Bases - Baldonnell w/h lengthened runway, west cork/south/kerry, galway

Retirement of the cessna 172s.
Retirement of the Super King Air
2 squadrons of Saab JAS-39 Gripen Swing-role aircraft.
Purchase of L-39, L-159 or Hawks for the purpose of jet training.
Relegation of the Pilatus PC-9Ms to basic to intermediate training. We use these as our front line aircraft atm. lol. Condor Airlines in germany operates 10 of these (vs. our 8) for target-towing.

Add three Saab Erieye Airbourne Early Warning aircraft.
Add two C-130J Hercules Transport Aircraft.
12+ Long Range UAVs

Retain AgustaWestland AW139s (inc. the 2 on order)
Increase the Eurocopter EC-135 order +3 for Garda Air Support, and +3 for military use.
Add three NHI NH-90 Medium Helicopters
Retain CASA CN-235s
Possibly use additional CN-235s rather than C-130Js to save costs.

Retain Britten-Norman Defender 4000


Naval Service:

Majority of existing vessels to be reassigned to a new Coast Guard w/h LÉ Róisín as the flagship.
Establishment of a proper Navy Diving school.
Three Bases - Sligo/Donegal, Kerry, Wicklow

Three Fridtjof Nansen/Álvaro de Bazán class frigates.
Four/Five Visby Class Corvettes
Five Skjold class patrol boats
LÉ Niamh converted for SIGINT
Seven CB-90s under the jurisdiction of the Army.

Addition of two/three German Type 212A submarines.

Army:

22-26 Challenger II-E Main Battle Tanks
Order BTR-T or Puma Infantry Fighting Vehicles.
Order Iveco Light Multirole Vehicles
Maintain Nissan Patrols gradually replaced with Toyota LandCruisers

Increase order for Javelin Anti-Tank Missiles
SRAW Anti-Tank Missiles
Retain AUG rifle gradually replace with IMI TAR-21 Tavor
Retain USP Pistol.
Retain FN MAG
Retire AT-4
Add FN P90 as support weapon.
Replace L96 sniper rifle with M110 SASS
Retain RBS-70 G to A Missile
Order MEADS if available or Patriot PAC-3 for point defence
Order SA-20 Triumf for general air defence
Order 120mm Mortars

ciaran2008

cros13 wrote: »

hurmph...

The thing is Irish ppl on the whole assume we possess a defensive capability which we do not. Despite the fact that our military capabilities affect our place in the international community and our intelligence capabilities affect our economic health.

It's well known that throughout history and indeed today, the intelligence resources of nations have been used for the purposes of commercial espionage.
G2 and the gardai do not have the capability to defend us or our livelihoods.
I work on DoD contracts, I know this first hand. I've met the people involved and they didn't impress.

We need, as a society, to make a decision. Either provide the funding for the defence of our nation, or disband the DF entirely.

If we were to follow the path of providing protection for our country the prudent course would be to provide a small effective force trained and equipped towards the assumed reality that they would be facing a numerically superior foe.

One of the best sources of equipment would be norway and sweden.
Sweden made the decision not to join regional alliances or align themselves with any such group. They also made the choice to source the majority of their military hardware internally. Sweden excels in the production of anti-armor weaponry and aircraft. Norway with it's extensive coastline and marine resources has again sources internally its miltary hardware.

My view of an irish DF with optimum bang for buck would be as follows:

Of course significant changes to the training regimens for all services.


Air Corps:

Reconstituted as an air force independent from the army.
3 Air Bases - Baldonnell w/h lengthened runway, west cork/south/kerry, galway

Retirement of the cessna 172s.
Retirement of the Super King Air
2 squadrons of Saab JAS-39 Gripen Swing-role aircraft.
Purchase of L-39, L-159 or Hawks for the purpose of jet training.
Relegation of the Pilatus PC-9Ms to basic to intermediate training. We use these as our front line aircraft atm. lol. Condor Airlines in germany operates 10 of these (vs. our 8) for target-towing.

Add three Saab Erieye Airbourne Early Warning aircraft.
Add two C-130J Hercules Transport Aircraft.
12+ Long Range UAVs

Retain AgustaWestland AW139s (inc. the 2 on order)
Increase the Eurocopter EC-135 order +3 for Garda Air Support, and +3 for military use.
Add three NHI NH-90 Medium Helicopters
Retain CASA CN-235s
Possibly use additional CN-235s rather than C-130Js to save costs.

Retain Britten-Norman Defender 4000


Naval Service:

Majority of existing vessels to be reassigned to a new Coast Guard w/h LÉ Róisín as the flagship.
Establishment of a proper Navy Diving school.
Three Bases - Sligo/Donegal, Kerry, Wicklow

Three Fridtjof Nansen/Álvaro de Bazán class frigates.
Four/Five Visby Class Corvettes
Five Skjold class patrol boats
LÉ Niamh converted for SIGINT
Seven CB-90s under the jurisdiction of the Army.

Addition of two/three German Type 212A submarines.

Army:

22-26 Challenger II-E Main Battle Tanks
Order BTR-T or Puma Infantry Fighting Vehicles.
Order Iveco Light Multirole Vehicles
Maintain Nissan Patrols gradually replaced with Toyota LandCruisers

Increase order for Javelin Anti-Tank Missiles
SRAW Anti-Tank Missiles
Retain AUG rifle gradually replace with IMI TAR-21 Tavor
Retain USP Pistol.
Retain FN MAG
Retire AT-4
Add FN P90 as support weapon.
Replace L96 sniper rifle with M110 SASS
Retain RBS-70 G to A Missile
Order MEADS if available or Patriot PAC-3 for point defence
Order SA-20 Triumf for general air defence
Order 120mm Mortars

Well if work on Dod contracts than maybe. . just maybe. . you may have heard of The Ireland Defence Command! It is the element of the joint Anglo-Irish defence establishment tasked with the defence of the island of Ireland. In times of war the IDC would come directly under the command of the Joint British Isles Defence Command (JBID). JBID is a unified command system integrating the air, sea and land forces of Britain and Ireland.

Maybe it isn't in operation now but rwad on..

The old Irish Defence Force disintegrated under the pressures of the Twilight War. The stresses of the stalemated, vicious conflict with the north combined with the collapse of the Republic's economy and central government due to the nuclear strikes in the south and fallout from the continent. Soon Ulster and northern Leinster were battlegrounds, Munster was a radiated dead zone and Connaught was acting on its own. Only the area around Dublin was still under the control of the Irish Provisional Government.
The long climb back from the chaos took no little time in spite of outside intervention from both Britain and France. What resulted was the reunification of Ireland as a loose federation of the four provinces under the aegis of the British Commonwealth. This allowed Unionists a continued link with Britain whilst Republicans had a unified Irish state. Highly autonomous provinces meant also that neither community could dominate the other. The links across the Irish Sea also allowed both countries to help each others recovery. Slowly the hatred stoked by the near genocidal battles of the Twilight and Ireland's earlier history began to fade, but would never quite be forgotten.
Post-Twilight Ireland was dominated by regional forces, many of which were only under tentative control by any leader. The more disciplined forces of Ulster and the Pale were re-organised, retrained and re-equipped, and alongside British and some French troops began to disband the irregular bands and bring order back to Ireland. Later other units were organised in Leinster, Connaught and Munster. Ireland was exhausted and desperate for peace but some warlords were determined to cling onto power and it wasn't until the early-2020's when the last major strongmen had been dealt with.
Ireland's defence was now to gain the basic structure it retains today, with regular units from both Ireland and Britain serving as a central reserve. Regionally recruited volunteers would form defence units in case of major threats to the security of the island. Anglo-Irish links were maintained with Irish units also serving in British formations on Earth and later in the colonies. Irish soldiers also conduct much of their advanced training in British establishments. This relationship is close but not exclusive, IDC units also cross-train with the French and Americans on a frequent basis. Indeed Irish battalions (2 CR and 3 ICR respectively) served under French command in Central Asian and German Reunification Wars.
It should be noted however that the majority of Irish units serve in British formations. This does not include Irish units on the British Establishment (such as the Irish Guards) or individual Irish soldiers serving in British units.

cros13

cros13 wrote: »

Retain Britten-Norman Defender 4000

On further thought three Quest Kodiaks would be more suited to the mission of the islander/defender.

cros13 wrote: »

Seven CB-90s under the jurisdiction of the Army.

Probably need more then seven. possibly as many as 15-20

cros13 wrote: »

Order 120mm Mortars

Guided mortars would probably be best. the launchers can be vehicle mounted and also used with standard mortars.
The STRIX is the only guided mortar currently in service with a european army.

ciaran2008 wrote: »

Well if work on Dod contracts than maybe. . just maybe. . you may have heard of The Ireland Defence Command! It is the element of the joint Anglo-Irish defence establishment tasked with the defence of the island of Ireland. In times of war the IDC would come directly under the command of the Joint British Isles Defence Command (JBID). JBID is a unified command system integrating the air, sea and land forces of Britain and Ireland.

Yeah 2300AD will be a bitch

Seriously though, with our OFFICIAL current air warfare plan being "Call the RAF", we got to ask questions.

Our defence budget in % of GDP is negligible. Pretty much the lowest in the world other than countries without armies. really, WTF?

A serious concern from my perspective is the lack of specialised tracks within the DF. Again my experience is normally dealing with the signals boys. They don't have the training or staff or will to even maintain the systems they do have. Not their fault just mismanagment and some feather-brained notion that you can train in a few weeks and on the job. A JUNIOR engineer that I train up goes through 2-3 years of ****ing hard graft. I'd expect a senior engineer to have 10 years in training + experience. Signals is made up of ppl with no interest/expereince in the field. The classified network is a joke, security is essentially the fact that officially none of the systems connected to it are connected to unsecured networks. Gimmie some basic kit and a laptop and a twelve year old would be in within seconds. Encryption where used utilises old algorithms that can be broken inside 20 minutes with the twelve year old kid and his laptop.
At the most basic level procedures in the DF are lacking. Regardless of funding/political will. The officers should get up off their arses and out of the canteens of baldonnel/McKee and go do something to justify their pension.

/END RANT
:lol

ciaran2008

cros13 wrote: »

On further thought three Quest Kodiaks would be more suited to the mission of the islander/defender.




Probably need more then seven. possibly as many as 15-20



Guided mortars would probably be best. the launchers can be vehicle mounted and also used with standard mortars.
The STRIX is the only guided mortar currently in service with a european army.



Yeah 2300AD will be a bitch

Seriously though, with our OFFICIAL current air warfare plan being "Call the RAF", we got to ask questions.

Our defence budget in % of GDP is negligible. Pretty much the lowest in the world other than countries without armies. really, WTF?

A serious concern from my perspective is the lack of specialised tracks within the DF. Again my experience is normally dealing with the signals boys. They don't have the training or staff or will to even maintain the systems they do have. Not their fault just mismanagment and some feather-brained notion that you can train in a few weeks and on the job. A JUNIOR engineer that I train up goes through 2-3 years of ****ing hard graft. I'd expect a senior engineer to have 10 years in training + experience. Signals is made up of ppl with no interest/expereince in the field. The classified network is a joke, security is essentially the fact that officially none of the systems connected to it are connected to unsecured networks. Gimmie some basic kit and a laptop and a twelve year old would be in within seconds. Encryption where used utilises old algorithms that can be broken inside 20 minutes with the twelve year old kid and his laptop.
At the most basic level procedures in the DF are lacking. Regardless of funding/political will. The officers should get up off their arses and out of the canteens of baldonnel/McKee and go do something to justify their pension.

/END RANT
:lol

At the end of the day we are a small country and we could potentially spend x amount on defence but it wouldn’t make a difference!! I mean Ireland will never be keeping a nuclear warfare etc so a few more planes, a few more troops really wont make a difference! Hence we should depend on the EU and anyway someday the EU will just be one big country, with one head of sate, one centralised government and ONE big army so relax! Anyway why would anyone want to declare war on Ireland? We dodged wars before we can do it again!

Don’t why im so concerned though because im a northerner so I can depend on the RAF etc

cros13

ciaran2008 wrote: »

At the end of the day we are a small country and we could potentially spend x amount on defence but it wouldn’t make a difference!! I mean Ireland will never be keeping a nuclear warfare etc so a few more planes, a few more troops really wont make a difference! Hence we should depend on the EU and anyway someday the EU will just be one big country, with one head of sate, one centralised government and ONE big army so relax! Anyway why would anyone want to declare war on Ireland? We dodged wars before we can do it again!

But what about our second invasion of canada?

srsly though, things like effective service with the UN is a politcal plus even within the US. Why bother with a DF at all if we don't do it right.

We don't have to worry about nukes. fallout risk for europe is two high. We'd have half the world on our side in an instant.

The notional DF I outlined above I specced taking into account maintainence, training, staff costs and actual combat survivability/effectiveness.
From the aspect of the use of tactical & strategic nukes the would be frighteningly ineffective against this type for armed force. You just would'nt be inflicting enough damage in term of ability to wage war.

e.g the Gripen's can land on a few hundred meters of straight road, maintainence can be carried out by a mechanic with a laptop, 1 assistant and a few basic tools.

The Kodiak was purpose built for humanitarian missions. It can land pretty much anywhere (landing gear designed to survive hitting tree stumps) in less than 200 metres. It can also be fitted with floats.
It costs less than 700k per unit and uses the PT6 turbine. V. reliable, in use since the 60s, cheap/easy to find parts. Can run on car diesel or vegetable oil in a pinch.

The NH-90 can be dissassembled with just 7 tools. And can operate in S&R/Sea S&R/Transport/Medevac/ASW/Attack/AAW/HHW roles.

The Erieye is based on a Saab 340 airliner. It has low fuel consumption, widely available parts and high reliability.

The Fridtjof Nansen class frigate offers the capabilities of the american Aegis combat system for a bargain price. It has some stealth features. It's also armed to the fecking teeth.

The Visby class is a stealth ship from the ground up. It also has low fuel burn.

The Skjold class patrol boat is another stealth vessel and one of the worlds fastest warships. Soviet war doctrine used a tactic using fast missile boats like this to take out the american aircraft carriers. The soviets used the Tarantul (Lightning) class.

From a military perspective our best chance in a battle is with stealth and survivability. Sneak up and do as much damage as possible. Air, land and sea, Guerilla warfare is the order of the day.

CB-90s can be fitted with AMOS mortar launchers and the STRIX guided mortar. With MRSI (multiple rounds simultaneous impact) an AMOS equipped CB-90 can take out 14 main battle tanks in essentially 1 second over 10km inshore with guided munitions,
while carrying a team of army rangers on a pleasure cruise.
And it costs around the same as those tourist boats on the shannon.
It also carries 4 mines or 6 depth charges, Hellfire Anti Ship missile launcher , a grenade launcher and three 50 cal machine guns capable of firing explosive,inced. and armor-piercing rounds. Plus whatever the 21 army rangers bring along in the way of small arms, anti-tank and anti-air weapons.
That's one tough bastard of a boat for very little money. The Hellfire missile loadout costs more than the whole ship.

The Type 212 submarine runs on hydrogen fuel cells and can stay submerged for three weeks while virtually undetectable due to no engine noise and no pump noise from a nuclear reactor cooling system. If you don't mind going to snorkel depth and running the generator once and a while it can do twelve weeks. It also has 6 torpedo tubes, IDAS missiles and naval mines. And only needs 22 crewmen.

Challenger IIE MBTs are the fastest tanks in the world. have reactive armor.
A Challenger II near Basra surrvived being hit by 70...yes..7..0.. RPGs Reference BBC.

In one encounter within the urban area a Challenger 2 came under attack from irregular forces with machine guns and rocket propelled grenades. The drivers sight was damaged and while attempting to back away under the commander's directions, the other sights were damaged and the tank threw its tracks entering a ditch. It was hit directly by eight rocket propelled grenades from close range and a MILAN anti-tank missile, and was under heavy small arms fire for hours. The crew survived remaining safe within the tank until the tank was recovered for repairs, the worst damage being to the sighting system.

"Apaches are not heavily armoured and it takes just one rocket-propelled grenade (RPG) to bring one down. Compare that with one British Challenger near Basra which survived being hit by 70 RPGs."

The IIE Enhanced model is even tougher and better armed.
Defensive additions include a regenerative NBC protection system.
The IIE also has a more powerful engine with better fuel consumption.

Just to finish up the PC-9M isent that fast. its top speed is 60 knots (111.2 kph) slower than the spitfire. It's also armed with machine guns vs the spitfire's cannon. The brits found out right quick at the start of WW2 that machine guns were no match for cannon. the PC-9 has less range, less manuverability and far less of a hope in hell.

[/END ANOTHER RANT]

cros13

Some Media:

CB-90:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzahnbsKRL0

Type 212 submarine:



Saab Erieye:



Saab Gripen:



Visby:



NH90:




Fridtjof Nansen:



Skjold:



Challenger II:



Iveco LMV:



BMP-T:

bartholomewbinn

CROS13
How do you past photos into your post?

Lockstep

If you use firefox then you can rightclick on an image and do "copy image location"

Then when writing your post put


Internet explorer, I'm unsure.

P_1

ciaran2008 wrote: »

The old Irish Defence Force disintegrated under the pressures of the Twilight War. The stresses of the stalemated, vicious conflict with the north combined with the collapse of the Republic's economy and central government due to the nuclear strikes in the south and fallout from the continent. Soon Ulster and northern Leinster were battlegrounds, Munster was a radiated dead zone and Connaught was acting on its own. Only the area around Dublin was still under the control of the Irish Provisional Government.
The long climb back from the chaos took no little time in spite of outside intervention from both Britain and France. What resulted was the reunification of Ireland as a loose federation of the four provinces under the aegis of the British Commonwealth. This allowed Unionists a continued link with Britain whilst Republicans had a unified Irish state. Highly autonomous provinces meant also that neither community could dominate the other. The links across the Irish Sea also allowed both countries to help each others recovery. Slowly the hatred stoked by the near genocidal battles of the Twilight and Ireland's earlier history began to fade, but would never quite be forgotten.
Post-Twilight Ireland was dominated by regional forces, many of which were only under tentative control by any leader. The more disciplined forces of Ulster and the Pale were re-organised, retrained and re-equipped, and alongside British and some French troops began to disband the irregular bands and bring order back to Ireland. Later other units were organised in Leinster, Connaught and Munster. Ireland was exhausted and desperate for peace but some warlords were determined to cling onto power and it wasn't until the early-2020's when the last major strongmen had been dealt with.
Ireland's defence was now to gain the basic structure it retains today, with regular units from both Ireland and Britain serving as a central reserve. Regionally recruited volunteers would form defence units in case of major threats to the security of the island. Anglo-Irish links were maintained with Irish units also serving in British formations on Earth and later in the colonies. Irish soldiers also conduct much of their advanced training in British establishments. This relationship is close but not exclusive, IDC units also cross-train with the French and Americans on a frequent basis. Indeed Irish battalions (2 CR and 3 ICR respectively) served under French command in Central Asian and German Reunification Wars.
It should be noted however that the majority of Irish units serve in British formations. This does not include Irish units on the British Establishment (such as the Irish Guards) or individual Irish soldiers serving in British units.

Forgive my ignorance but where is this from?

cros13

pithater1 wrote: »

Forgive my ignorance but where is this from?

It's fiction.

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/2300/Admin/Index1.htm

daithicarr

Actually nearly any major or minor power in the world could utterly cripple us without risking the loss of any of it men. if no one were to intervene in our favor any enemy could cripple us by imposing a land and sea embargo.

We would quickly surrender rather than completely destroy our economy. we would have no way to retaliate.