Finding Faith

PDN

Popinjay wrote: »

It merely says that he made them do it (if that is in fact what he made them do. So God forced them to do bad things which would offend him? That makes perfect sense!

No, it doesn't say that God made them do it. It says that He gave them over to the desires of their hearts. God in effect said, "OK, you guys want to do that stuff, I won't keep restraining you or holding you back from what you do." If people are determined to do something that God has told them not to do, God will warn them of the consequences, but He won't stop them doing what they want. It's called free will.

DubArk

JimiTime wrote: »

Steady on folks, I think this is a first, but i have to come to Kelly1's defence here.

to remind the 'non' christians posting here, this is a christian forum, so saying that homosexuality is sinful is 'correct' when you are expressing christian ethics on the matter. Obviously, people who are not christian have their own views, but the question was asked in a christian forum, so to start deriding one of its members for honestly answering the question is bang out of order IMO. 'Jesus freaks' was mentioned at one stage. Well the OP decided to ask the 'jesus freaks'.

In a nutshell, is homosexuality sinful in gods eyes? Yes. .

In your eyes! How dare you speak for God and remind people that this is a Christian forum! God gave us free will and we can express that just the same as you and kelly1. Just because you don’t like the replies don’t get all dictatorial about what and what can not be said. If Kelly1’s prepared to pontificate then be prepared for others to express their points of view too. I was called the devil worshiper for having a different point of view. Did you read that?! In a Nutshell my Ar**!

JimiTime

DubArk wrote: »

In your eyes! How dare you speak for God and remind people that this is a Christian forum! God gave us free will and we can express that just the same as you and kelly1. Just because you don’t like the replies don’t get all dictatorial about what and what can not be said.
If Kelly1’s prepared to pontificate then be prepared for others to express their points of view too. I was called the devil worshiper for having a different point of view. Did you read that?! In a Nutshell my Ar**!

Grow up you muppet! I wont even bother responding to your drivel!

Between 'jesus freaks', and
'How do you know a mallard hasn't got a soul? Just because some guy in a frock says that doesn't mean it is true. Bhuddists accept that all animals have souls so why can't you?

This forum gets more ridiculous by the day!

Soul Winner

JimiTime wrote: »

Soulwinner, are you saying repentance is not a requirement? Can someone who stubbornly remains in their sin be saved? I'm not looking for a showdown, just be interested in seeing your take on it.

Hi JT. Not at all, I am not saying that. We need to repent for sure. But repentance the word in the Greek is 'μετάνοιαν' "Metanoia" means to turn from something to something else it has nothing to do with penance and punishing oneself. We are taught that we cannot even Metanoia without God's help. "In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth." 2 Tim 2:25 This verse tells us that repentance itself is a gift from God. The problem with Christianity today is that we start off in the spirit because of our first hearing of faith and then try to finish the trip in the flesh. When I say flesh I mean fleshly effort in works of the law in trying to change our selves. It is impossible to do this in the flesh. We need outside help from God. That is why he gives us His spirit, so that He can do the changing, we just need to keep the connection of faith daily. We need to become more Christ like and less self like. The Gospel teaches us that He will do this for anyone no matter what condition they are in once they have faith in His Word. They do not need to change themselves before God will give them His spirit. God knows we can't change ourselves by mere fleshly effort. That is what Paul's Epistle to the Galatians is all about. They began in the spirit and afterward wanted to finish in the flesh. Paul asks them: Received ye the spirit by the works of the law or the hearing of faith?" “Are you so foolish having begun in the sprit are ye now made perfect in the flesh?”

I contended with Kelly1 because he immediately put up a ‘can't get to God if you are doing such and such’ barrier to the OP. He implied that the OP must change her behaviour before God will accept her. Doesn't the scripture say that "while WE WERE YET SINNERS Christ died for us?" Did we have to change before Christ died for us? No. Did the disciples change before the holy spirit descended on them? No. Same for us. We just need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Don't put up road blocks to true seekers of God. So what if the OP is a Lesbian. That is between her and God. None of anyone else's business. "He that comes unto me I will in no wise cast out." I'm just saying stop putting people off Christianity because you don't like their lifestyle. "No man comes to the Father save the spirit draws him." If the OP is being truly led of the spirit to seek God then who are we to put up blocks by suggesting they must change first? I burn with rage for people who do that and so does God. Be careful. Peter called the centurion he was told to preach to unclean and God said “don't call unclean that which I have cleaned”. When you come to God in faith He does not see your sinful nature anymore. He sees only Christ so stop telling people to change before god will accept them. He does the changing for them through His indwelling spirit, all the fleshly effort in the world will not change your sinful condition. You need the spirit in you by faith.

JimiTime

Soul Winner wrote: »

Hi JT. Not at all, I am not saying that. We need to repent for sure. But repentance the word in the Greek is 'μετάνοιαν' "Metanoia" means to turn from something to something else it has nothing to do with penance and punishing oneself. We are taught that we cannot even Metanoia without God's help. "In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth." 2 Tim 2:25 This verse tells us that repentance itself is a gift from God. The problem with Christianity today is that we start off in the spirit because of our first hearing of faith and then try to finish the trip in the flesh. When I say flesh I mean fleshly effort in works of the law in trying to change our selves. It is impossible to do this in the flesh. We need outside help from God. That is why he gives us His spirit, so that He can do the changing, we just need to keep the connection of faith daily. We need to become more Christ like and less self like. The Gospel teaches us that He will do this for anyone no matter what condition they are in once they have faith in His Word. They do not need to change themselves before God will give them His spirit. God knows we can't change ourselves by mere fleshly effort. That is what Paul's Epistle to the Galatians is all about. They began in the spirit and afterward wanted to finish in the flesh. Paul asks them: Received ye the spirit by the works of the law or the hearing of faith?" “Are you so foolish having begun in the sprit are ye now made perfect in the flesh?”

I contended with Kelly1 because he immediately put up a ‘can't get to God if you are doing such and such’ barrier to the OP. He implied that the OP must change her behaviour before God will accept her. Doesn't the scripture say that "while WE WERE YET SINNERS Christ died for us?" Did we have to change before Christ died for us? No. Did the disciples change before the holy spirit descended on them? No. Same for us. We just need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Don't put up road blocks to true seekers of God. So what if the OP is a Lesbian. That is between her and God. None of anyone else's business. "He that comes unto me I will in no wise cast out." I'm just saying stop putting people off Christianity because you don't like their lifestyle. "No man comes to the Father save the spirit draws him." If the OP is being truly led of the spirit to seek God then who are we to put up blocks by suggesting they must change first? I burn with rage for people who do that and so does God. Be careful. Peter called the centurion he was told to preach to unclean and God said “don't call unclean that which I have cleaned”. When you come to God in faith He does not see your sinful nature anymore. He sees only Christ so stop telling people to change before god will accept them. He does the changing for them through His indwelling spirit, all the fleshly effort in the world will not change your sinful condition. You need the spirit in you by faith.

Good answer.:) However, the OP seemed to me, to be looking for something that was going to accept her Lifestyle. She found that the OT was full of 'nothing but hatread'. She said, 'I'm definately not willing to cease being a lesbian or practicing lesbianism.'
I thought Kelly1's answer just informed her that it is sinful to practice sexual immorality. I know what you mean that it seemed to be presented as a choice, 'be a christian or be a lesbian'. However, you seem to be saying that the holy spirit will change her anyway? Is it just the order of events we are talking about? Find christ, and the good changes will come, rather than, change and christ will come?

can i continue to be an adulterer but have faith and be saved?
can i continue to be a robber but have faith and be saved?
can i continue to practice homosexuality but have faith and be saved?

kelly1

Soul Winner wrote: »

I contended with Kelly1 because he immediately put up a ‘can't get to God if you are doing such and such’ barrier to the OP. He implied that the OP must change her behaviour before God will accept her. Doesn't the scripture say that "while WE WERE YET SINNERS Christ died for us?" Did we have to change before Christ died for us? No. Did the disciples change before the holy spirit descended on them? No. Same for us. We just need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Don't put up road blocks to true seekers of God. So what if the OP is a Lesbian. That is between her and God. None of anyone else's business. "He that comes unto me I will in no wise cast out." I'm just saying stop putting people off Christianity because you don't like their lifestyle. "No man comes to the Father save the spirit draws him." If the OP is being truly led of the spirit to seek God then who are we to put up blocks by suggesting they must change first? I burn with rage for people who do that and so does God. Be careful. Peter called the centurion he was told to preach to unclean and God said “don't call unclean that which I have cleaned”. When you come to God in faith He does not see your sinful nature anymore. He sees only Christ so stop telling people to change before god will accept them. He does the changing for them through His indwelling spirit, all the fleshly effort in the world will not change your sinful condition. You need the spirit in you by faith.

Soul Winner, you're preaching a dangerous doctrine.

John 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews, who believed him: If you continue in my word, you shall be my disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him: We are the seed of Abraham, and we have never been slaves to any man: how sayest thou: you shall be free? 34 Jesus answered them: Amen, amen I say unto you: that whosoever committeth sin, is the servant of sin.

You make it sound like the Holy Spirit takes over everything including our free will. God doesn't prevent us from sinning but grace most certainly helps to avoid sin.

PDN

JimiTime wrote: »

Grow up you muppet! I wont even bother responding to your drivel!

Between 'jesus freaks', and
'How do you know a mallard hasn't got a soul? Just because some guy in a frock says that doesn't mean it is true. Bhuddists accept that all animals have souls so why can't you?

This forum gets more ridiculous by the day!

Yes, the amount of muppetry does seem to be increasing of late.

Soul Winner

JimiTime wrote: »

Good answer.:) However, the OP seemed to me, to be looking for something that was going to accept her Lifestyle. She found that the OT was full of 'nothing but hatread'. She said, 'I'm definately not willing to cease being a lesbian or practicing lesbianism.'
I thought Kelly1's answer just informed her that it is sinful to practice sexual immorality. I know what you mean that it seemed to be presented as a choice, 'be a christian or be a lesbian'. However, you seem to be saying that the holy spirit will change her anyway? Is it just the order of events we are talking about? Find christ, and the good changes will come, rather than, change and christ will come?

can i continue to be an adulterer but have faith and be saved?

can i continue to be a robber but have faith and be saved?

can i continue to practice homosexuality but have faith and be saved?

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:9.

When you act in faith on God's promises two things happen. 1) God does not see you as a sinner anymore. He looks at you in a judicial sense as a sinless person like Christ even though you are not. As long as you keep the connection of faith then God sees you as if you were Christ Himself. Because He seen Christ as a sinner on the cross even though He actually wasn't.

2) God puts His spirit in you, which said spirit if maintained long enough will produce the fruit. This fruit is what true good works are. They cannot be done by observance of the law. The law can only condemn the sinner it cannot not bend to help without compromising itself. We need God's spirit in us and the only way to get it in us is by faith, acting on God's promises. Paul describes a warfare that takes place when God's spirit is in us by faith. There are now two natures at work. And they are contrary to one another. You're old nature he calls the old man and the new nature he calls the new man. Every now and then the old nature will get out. Paul calls this the old man taken over. This happens to all of us at some stage or another in our lives and when it happens to a brother then we who are spiritual must restore such a one in the spirit of meekness literally with rebuke and take heed lest we also be over taken for the same old nature dwells in us.

Only when we die are we separated fully (sanctified) from this old nature and are free to be with the Lord forever in our new state. But as long as we are still in the flesh there is a danger that we can slip back into our old ways, but the new nature cannot sin only the old nature can sin and is sinful. But God does not see that nature in us anymore like I said, he views us through the telescope of Christ because He died for our sins and paid the penalty for our sins. This is not only true when you become a Christian. This is always true no matter what stage you are at in your Christian walk of faith. We always need this grace. Anyone who doesn't need it is not a Christian because it is by grace that we are saved through faith and that not of ourselves, it is a gift of God not of works lest any man should boast.

One of things that pissed Jesus off the most during His earthly ministry was judging. No matter how bad somebody else might have been to judge that person was a worse sin. Why? Because we don't have the right to judge anyone. Only a sinless person can judge a sinful person. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Who is Kelly1 to point anything out to the OP about how to live? Does Kelly1 live a perfect life? Then why point out things to the OP about sins that he doesn't even know if she commits? There are lots of things that God doesn't like and maybe lesbianism is one of them but who are we to condemn someone for it even if it was a sin that God condemned? Only God can judge, we can’t. If everyone adhered to that rule then the world would be a better place. More people would consider Christianity as a way to live rather than a thing to avoid. Stop judging!!!

Fanny Cradock

DubArk wrote: »

In your eyes! How dare you speak for God and remind people that this is a Christian forum! God gave us free will and we can express that just the same as you and kelly1. Just because you don’t like the replies don’t get all dictatorial about what and what can not be said. If Kelly1’s prepared to pontificate then be prepared for others to express their points of view too. I was called the devil worshiper for having a different point of view. Did you read that?! In a Nutshell my Ar**!

Your replies on this thread make you seem very angry and very bitter. You need to relax.

Soul Winner

kelly1 wrote: »

Soul Winner, you're preaching a dangerous doctrine.

Am I now? How so? How did you come to that conclusion? The Pope? Believe it or not there are other people in the world who are Christian who don't need the Pope or the Catholic Church in order to be a Christian.

kelly1 wrote: »

You make it sound like the Holy Spirit takes over everything including our free will. God doesn't prevent us from sinning but grace most certainly helps to avoid sin.

Avoid sin? We are sinners. We sin. We are being saved from our sinful natures which are utterly sinful. Paul calls sin Harmatia in the New Testament. It means to simply fall short of the mark. And that mark is the perfect standard of the law. The Pope falls short of this standard also as does everyone else. When you can live up to it then you can preach it to others until then you must preach that Christ lived up to it and He died for everyone that can't. He kept it for everyone by laying His life down as a ransom paid in full. Grace is unmerited favour from God. That means that it cannot be earned. As soon as you can say you've earned God’s grace then it ceases to be grace, it has become debt. If you want your dues for your works of the law then you will get them. The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life.

Popinjay

PDN wrote: »

No, it doesn't say that God made them do it. It says that He gave them over to the desires of their hearts. God in effect said, "OK, you guys want to do that stuff, I won't keep restraining you or holding you back from what you do." If people are determined to do something that God has told them not to do, God will warn them of the consequences, but He won't stop them doing what they want. It's called free will.

Emphasis mine.

When did he ever tell them that they couldn't engage in lesbian acts - reference to lesbianism in the Bible other than this paragraph?

To repaet from my post at 15:02 on the 11th:

The Greek word in question, arsenokoitai, which the RSV translates differently each time (respectively "homosexuals" and "sodomites"), is in fact a neologism that literally means "males who sleep together"

Quoted from a link Kelly provided.

God did not even say that the 'relations' were natural or unnatural because neither God nor Jesus were recounting the events described (for the purposes of the discussion I will accept the premise that God inspired the writing of every book of the Bible but I don't believe we can say God dictated it word for word - am I wrong?). Seems like a bit of editorialising to me.

DubArk

JimiTime wrote: »

Grow up you muppet! I wont even bother responding to your drivel!

Between 'jesus freaks', and
'How do you know a mallard hasn't got a soul? Just because some guy in a frock says that doesn't mean it is true. Bhuddists accept that all animals have souls so why can't you?

This forum gets more ridiculous by the day!

That was cleaver………. good retort! NOT!!! I wash my hands of this ridicules nonsense that’s been spouted by you and your ilk. Do us a favor dont ever respond!
:D:D

kelly1

Soul Winner wrote: »

Avoid sin? We are sinners. We sin. We are being saved from our sinful natures which are utterly sinful. Paul calls sin Harmatia in the New Testament. It means to simply fall short of the mark. And that mark is the perfect standard of the law. The Pope falls short of this standard also as does everyone else. When you can live up to it then you can preach it to others until then you must preach that Christ lived up to it and He died for everyone that can't. He kept it for everyone by laying His life down as a ransom paid in full. Grace is unmerited favour from God. That means that it cannot be earned. As soon as you can say you've earned God’s grace then it ceases to be grace, it has become debt. If you want your dues for your works of the law then you will get them. The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life.

Yes we are all sinners and nobody but Christ is without sin but we are exhorted by Christ not to sin. I know grace is unmerited, it's a free gift from God. I'm talking about attachment to sin. You can't love God and sin. If there is a desire to sin, we can't please God. Everyone who loves God strives to avoid sin, helped by God's grace but grace doesn't prevent sin, we still have free will. Grace just makes it easier to love God and avoid sin.

Matthew 5:48 Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.

John 8:11 Who said: No man, Lord. And Jesus said: Neither will I condemn thee. Go, and now sin no more.

John 8:34 Jesus answered them: Amen, amen I say unto you: that whosoever committeth sin, is the servant of sin.

John 15:22 If I had not come, and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.

JimiTime

DubArk wrote: »

That was cleaver……….

Oh the Irony.

I wash my hands of this ridicules nonsense that’s been spouted by you and your ilk.

Thanks. Much appreciated. Don't forget to scrub under them nails.

kelly1

Popinjay wrote: »

When did he ever tell them that they couldn't engage in lesbian acts - reference to lesbianism in the Bible other than this paragraph?

To repaet from my post at 15:02 on the 11th:

The Greek word in question, arsenokoitai, which the RSV translates differently each time (respectively "homosexuals" and "sodomites"), is in fact a neologism that literally means "males who sleep together"

Quoted from a link Kelly provided.

God did not even say that the 'relations' were natural or unnatural because neither God nor Jesus were recounting the events described (for the purposes of the discussion I will accept the premise that God inspired the writing of every book of the Bible but I don't believe we can say God dictated it word for word - am I wrong?). Seems like a bit of editorialising to me.

This is incredible! It really is amazing what people will do to justify sin!

The New Testament is the word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit and written by the Apostles who were taught by Jesus.

Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Why would God condemn male homosexuality and not female???

JimiTime

kelly1 wrote: »

You can't love God and sin.

How can the above quote be true? If we 'all' sin, then that means 'nobody' loves God. I am assuming the above quote needs clarification?

Popinjay

kelly1 wrote: »

You can't love God and sin.

Have you not sinned once since you found your faith again?

kelly1 wrote: »

...The New Testament is the word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit and written by the Apostles who were taught by Jesus.

Why would God condemn male homosexuality and not female???

So a certain amount of editorialising either during the first writings or if you really really want during one of the later translations is possible?

Well my reasons for beleiving that God would do that are because he doesn't exist but we'll ignore that since it has no great relevance to the current discussion. I don't know how you're going to justify it but I'm willing to listen if you can show where God said lesbians were sinning.

And don't forget adding to the Bible in anyway is a terrible sin so unless God said lesbians = bad you have no scriptural justification, just your own prejudices.

kelly1

JimiTime wrote: »

How can the above quote be true? If we 'all' sin, then that means 'nobody' loves God. I am assuming the above quote needs clarification?

Yes, I should have been more precise. You can't love God and love sin or sin deliberately.

Popinjay

kelly1 wrote: »

Yes, I should have been more precise. You can't love God and love sin or sin deliberately.

That makes a bit more sense. I hereby retract my question of your sinful behaviour since rediscovering your faith. Obviously if somebody asks you not to do (or to do) something and you go ahead and do (or don't) whatever it was, you're not displaying a lot of love for them.

On the other hand, I've never not loved my mother and in my youth (defined as between the ages of 12 and 18 by the Children Act 2001 - in case anyone wants to cite childish ignorance of my actions) I manys a time went againt a direct order from her; curfews, etc. And ain't nobody gonna tell me that means I didn't love my momma.

JimiTime

kelly1 wrote: »

Yes, I should have been more precise. You can't love God and love sin or sin deliberately.

Hmmm. I do know what you are saying Noel, and indeed such a quality is admirable in a person. However, look at king David with Batsheeba. He took someone elses wife, had her husband killed, did he not love God? i think people who love God deliberately sin frequently, however, like the Lords prayer says, we ask for forgiveness and repent. Peter denying Christ. Jonah. Moses. All people who sinned quite deliberately, but all loved God no?
Popinjay gave a good analogy above, about how he loves his mum, but frequently disobeyed her.

Popinjay

Thanks Jimi and I'm glad you could provide a bit of Biblical reference to back up our common point. It's rare we'll find one but it's nice when we do.

From what I can understand and remember of my own RC upbringing, God accepts the fact that we sin and loves us anyway. Hence the sacrifice of his son for our misdeeds.

The sin may be hateful to him but in his infinite love he recognises that we are far from perfect beings and will err regularly, even in our intent. What matters is that we truly love him and strive as much as is possible in our less than perfect state to please him.

Is that a good explanation of the situation from an unbeliever?

PDN

Popinjay wrote: »

Emphasis mine.

When did he ever tell them that they couldn't engage in lesbian acts - reference to lesbianism in the Bible other than this paragraph?

The Old Testament prohibited adultery (Exodus 20:14) and stipulated that women should be virgins at the point of marriage (Deuteronomy 22). Now, you can try to find Clintonesque loopholes ("lesbianism isn't technically losing one's virginity") or accept the clear intent of the Law, that sexual relations were intended to be within the confines of marriage.

God did not even say that the 'relations' were natural or unnatural because neither God nor Jesus were recounting the events described (for the purposes of the discussion I will accept the premise that God inspired the writing of every book of the Bible but I don't believe we can say God dictated it word for word - am I wrong?). Seems like a bit of editorialising to me.

The Greek word for 'inspired' in 2 Tim 3:16 is theopneustos - literally 'God breathed'. The idea is not that God provided some vague inspiration, but rather that Scripture is breathed out from Him. While this does not mean mechanical dictation, it does, in my opinion, mean that the writers were superintended by the Holy Spirit to ensure that the Scripture is without error or editorialising. This can be seen by how the New Testament will build an entire argument on just one word in Scripture. For example, in Galatians 3:16 Paul builds an entire idea on the fact that Genesis 12:7 uses the word 'seed' in the singular rather than the plural.

JimiTime

Popinjay wrote: »

From what I can understand and remember of my own RC upbringing, God accepts the fact that we sin and loves us anyway. Hence the sacrifice of his son for our misdeeds.

The sin may be hateful to him but in his infinite love he recognises that we are far from perfect beings and will err regularly, even in our intent. What matters is that we truly love him and strive as much as is possible in our less than perfect state to please him.

Is that a good explanation of the situation from an unbeliever?

I'm by no means an authority on it, but i see no problem in that explaination.

Popinjay

PDN wrote: »

The Old Testament prohibited adultery (Exodus 20:14) and stipulated that women should be virgins at the point of marriage (Deuteronomy 22). Now, you can try to find Clintonesque loopholes ("lesbianism isn't technically losing one's virginity") or accept the clear intent of the Law, that sexual relations were intended to be within the confines of marriage.

Deuteronomy 22:21
...She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house...

Seems more about the lesser bride price paid for non-virgins to me. Naughty girl didn't tell Daddy he was charging over the odds for her. And tell me, do you do any of these????

Deuteronomy 22
10 Do not plow with an ox and a donkey yoked together.

11 Do not wear clothes of wool and linen woven together. 12 Make tassels on the four corners of the cloak you wear

I'll especially make reference to 11 since I'm not too sure how common cloaks are these days or what your farming background is like.

Exodus 22
16 "If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife. 17 If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins.

Oh look, it's all about the money again and apparently the actual sex wasn't an issue - Nobody gets stoned.

And Exodus 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. Adultery is any sex outside of the marital bed???? Leviticus gives a lot of sexual pratices we're not allowed engage in but stange that married people and family members are both mentioned and unmarried non-family members were left out.

PDN

Popinjay wrote: »

I'll especially make reference to 11 since I'm not too sure how common cloaks are these days or what your farming background is like.

You're wanting to change the subject? I understood we were talking about what God had told people in the past that Paul was writing about in Romans 1. If you want to talk about how we interpret the Old Testament after the coming of Jesus then I will be glad to do so in another thread.

Oh look, it's all about the money again and apparently the actual sex wasn't an issue - Nobody gets stoned.

So you think if no-one gets stoned that it doesn't matter? The payment of money was an acceptable punishment for certain sins in Old Testament times.

Popinjay

PDN wrote: »

You're wanting to change the subject? I understood we were talking about what God had told people in the past that Paul was writing about in Romans 1. If you want to talk about how we interpret the Old Testament after the coming of Jesus then I will be glad to do so in another thread.

Sorry about the delay, I've been away since last Thursday and only back in the office now. I'd initailly been discussing what Paul said in Romans until you yourself mentioned Deuteronomy. I have no intention of changing the subject but I will gladly follow if you do. I'm merely questioning your use of that Book as a basis for your argument. Do you follow all of the instructions in Deuteronomy or just the ones you decide are relevant?

So you think if no-one gets stoned that it doesn't matter? The payment of money was an acceptable punishment for certain sins in Old Testament times.

WHy wasn't the girl punished then? She doesn't have to pay anything. Does that mean she didn't sin?

P.S: Congratulations on the modship .

wolfsbane

Popinjay wrote: »

Quote:
9 Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, 10 Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.

I think Kelly has just solved it for you CorsetRibbon. You won't be lying with mankind as you're a lesbian. Looks like you're off the hook so . It's only gay men God doesn't like.

Much like the Victorian anti-homosexuality laws in the UK. There was no law against lesbianism.


EDIT: Found more in Kelly's link:

Sadly, No. Lesbianism is as much against God's will as the male version:
Romans 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

CorsetRibbon has the sin of lesbianism to repent of, just as I had my own string of sins to renounce when I turned to Christ.

Your passions/desires may seem very natural/good to you. Fornication and adultery for heteros likewise seems natural/good. But conscience warns you they are not, and God's word confirms it.

God has given us this space to repent; He has brought you to this discussion list to hear of your need to repent, and of His willingness to receive all who do so and trust in Christ for their righteousness:
1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

wolfsbane

JimiTime wrote: »

I'm by no means an authority on it, but i see no problem in that explaination.

I have to disagree. God commands us to forsake our sins and assures us that if we do not we will end up in Gehenna. See how often Christ Himself warned of the wrath to come. What is the very first word of the gospel message - 'Repent'. Repent means to change ones mind about and to turn away from the previous course.

philologos

CorsetRibbons: As a practising Anglican, I do not feel a need to hate homosexuals, and I don't think the Bible regards homosexuals as lesser than the rest of us. However sex exists for reproductive purposes, and this is the reason why the Bible encourages abstinence for homosexual couples, this is the bit which is commonly misinterpreted.

Popinjay

wolfsbane wrote: »

Sadly, No. Lesbianism is as much against God's will as the male version:
Romans 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Passage from Romans responded to here here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=55375489&postcount=31

Translation of Homosexuals discussed here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=55383192&postcount=42

Again, please note that Kelly provided the link that explains this translation.

EDIT: This link http://www.ewtn.com/library/HUMANITY/homo4.htm