Finding Faith

CorsetRibbons

I was baptised catholic and raised catholic in a manner of speaking. Mass every week, religious teachings in school, becoming a faith friend etc etc etc. As soon as I became a teenager I started to live for myself, not going to church if I didn't want to etc and over time I've lost faith in the catholic church and it's teachings. Over the past few months I've started to read the bible again and although I'm still only on the Old Testament, I find nothing but hatred within it's pages. I've become very interested again but as a lesbian, I've heard nothing from catholicism except how sinful and wrong it is to be gay. My friend in America who is a devout catholic says it's not a sin to be gay but it's a sin to practice it. I thought this statement was hypocrisy in itself. I'm desperate to get back in touch with my faith but I'm definately not willing to cease being a lesbian or practicing lesbianism. I'm gay and thats the way it is. I've been in a solid relationship for 4 years. I'm a good person, kind and caring and I work hard. I put other people before myself all the time and try to make people around me happy. I feel like it's so unjust to be hated by the catholic church and can't stomach to listening to the statements coming from the Vatican. I know the reasons behind this attitude is that beign gay means you aren't open to new life. I do intend on having children but just not by traditional methods. I do believe that there is a God but now, I'm not sure if I believe in him in the biblical sense of the word. How can I find my faith again? Is it ok to be a practising homosexual and still claim to be catholic? Any advice would be very much appreciated.

kelly1

Hello CR, I see you're in Newbridge, not far from me, I went to school there.

Anyway, you're in a bit of a pickle when it comes to Christianity (not just Catholicism). You have a choice to make between what you want and what God wants. That's the bottom line. God has told us that homosexual acts and lusts are sinful and you can either accept of reject this.

I know this is difficult for you so sorry if this sounds uncaring.

God bless,
Noel.

CorsetRibbons

But does being gay make me a bad person? I don't think it does. With the exception of my sexuality, I believe I try my best to be and am everything that a good Christian is supposed to be.

To say that I have either have to accept or reject God practically over what I believe is an unimportant subject which is undefining of my character, is unreal.

The catholic church haven't been very in touch with God's will themselves if this is the case.

CerebralCortex

CorsetRibbons wrote: »

But does being gay make me a bad person? I don't think it does. With the exception of my sexuality, I believe I try my best to be and am everything that a good Christian is supposed to be.

To say that I have either have to accept or reject God practically over what I believe is an unimportant subject which is undefining of my character, is unreal.

The catholic church haven't been very in touch with God's will if this is the case.

No you're not a bad person at all imo. I find it hard to accept that god would, if he created you the way you are, punish you for being as he made you.

Its one of the many reasons I'm an atheist.

CorsetRibbons

You make a lot of sense.....

I do believe that something exists, some sort of force. I just always thought it was Holy God but maybe God is in everything and everyone and he's not just a bearded fellow with sandals.

I've never been so confused...sheesh...

On the other hand, if I believe in God, I should know exactly what it is or who it is that I believe in, without question.....

rowlandbrowner

kelly1 wrote: »

God has told us that homosexual acts and lusts are sinful and you can either accept of reject this.

why do mallards engage in homosexual necrophilia? Can St. Peter excuse them on the basis that they can't read? I'm sure if the bible was made accessible to mallards they would desist from this sinful activity.

DubArk

kelly1 wrote: »

Hello CR, I see you're in Newbridge, not far from me, I went to school there.

Anyway, you're in a bit of a pickle when it comes to Christianity (not just Catholicism). You have a choice to make between what you want and what God wants. That's the bottom line. God has told us that homosexual acts and lusts are sinful and you can either accept of reject this.

I know this is difficult for you so sorry if this sounds uncaring.

God bless,
Noel.

When you read patronising statements like that why would you be bothered in believing in the so called companionate faith of Christianity or more to the point the bastardisation of it, in the form of the Catholic Church? You know who you are and what you’re about. Always be true to your convictions and remember that you’re not bad, evil, and wrong. The very fact that you are searching for answers allows one to see that you are of a high moral stance.

Let this be your heaven, the here and now and live life to the full.

Be Happy.

CorsetRibbons

Thanks DubArk...:)

I'll just try to be the best person I can be. I can't do anymore than that.

kelly1

CorsetRibbons wrote: »

But does being gay make me a bad person? I don't think it does. With the exception of my sexuality, I believe I try my best to be and am everything that a good Christian is supposed to be.

I'm not saying you're a bad person, you sound like a good person to me, but I believe homosexual acts, if you engage is these, are wrong. And I believe this I believe that God revealed, through His prophets and the apostles of Jesus, that homosexual practices are gravely sinful. The way I see it, God is the judge of all acts and it's not for me or you to decide what is wrong and what is right and conscience is always a reliable guide either. Jesus founded a Church which has a God-given authority to teach morality. In the gospel you'll see that Jesus told the apostles that the Holy Spirit would guide the Church into truth so we have an assurance from Christ that the Church will not err when it comes to teaching morality. You'll also see that Jesus gave Peter the keys of the Kingdom and the power to loose and bind.

The problem is that we don't see sin in the same way that God does. What is a small thing to us could be very offensive in God's eyes. That's why God has given us a Church so we can live in truth and avoid sin.

CorsetRibbons wrote: »

To say that I have either have to accept or reject God practically over what I believe is an unimportant subject which is undefining of my character, is unreal.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here but I'd be asking myself, which is more important, God's will or mine? Are you going to put yourself before God?

CorsetRibbons wrote: »

The catholic church haven't been very in touch with God's will themselves if this is the case.

Why?

Xavi6

Found her!!!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/member.php?u=11650

kelly1

rowlandbrowner wrote: »

why do mallards engage in homosexual necrophilia? Can St. Peter excuse them on the basis that they can't read? I'm sure if the bible was made accessible to mallards they would desist from this sinful activity.

Is this a joke? Mallards don't have immortal souls!

floydmoon1

You cant get to Heaven through good works.Here are a few verses.In John3:7
Jesus says "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."


For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves [it is] the gift of God Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9

To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 3:26-28

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 2:16

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Titus 3:5

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
James 2:26

kelly1

DubArk wrote: »

When you read patronising statements like that why would you be bothered in believing in the so called companionate faith of Christianity or more to the point the bastardisation of it, in the form of the Catholic Church? You know who you are and what you’re about. Always be true to your convictions and remember that you’re not bad, evil, and wrong. The very fact that you are searching for answers allows one to see that you are of a high moral stance.

Let this be your heaven, the here and now and live life to the full.

Be Happy.

Are you an atheist?

Soul Winner

CorsetRibbons wrote: »

I was baptised catholic and raised catholic in a manner of speaking. Mass every week, religious teachings in school, becoming a faith friend etc etc etc. As soon as I became a teenager I started to live for myself, not going to church if I didn't want to etc and over time I've lost faith in the catholic church and it's teachings. Over the past few months I've started to read the bible again and although I'm still only on the Old Testament, I find nothing but hatred within it's pages. I've become very interested again but as a lesbian, I've heard nothing from catholicism except how sinful and wrong it is to be gay. My friend in America who is a devout catholic says it's not a sin to be gay but it's a sin to practice it. I thought this statement was hypocrisy in itself. I'm desperate to get back in touch with my faith but I'm definately not willing to cease being a lesbian or practicing lesbianism. I'm gay and thats the way it is. I've been in a solid relationship for 4 years. I'm a good person, kind and caring and I work hard. I put other people before myself all the time and try to make people around me happy. I feel like it's so unjust to be hated by the catholic church and can't stomach to listening to the statements coming from the Vatican. I know the reasons behind this attitude is that beign gay means you aren't open to new life. I do intend on having children but just not by traditional methods. I do believe that there is a God but now, I'm not sure if I believe in him in the biblical sense of the word. How can I find my faith again? Is it ok to be a practising homosexual and still claim to be catholic? Any advice would be very much appreciated.

Hi CorsetRibbons. Bless your honesty. Don't worry about your sexual orientation when it comes to God. God is truly not interested in it. He died for ALL sins on a cruel cross so sin and sins are no longer an issue with Him. He's now looking for Faith and He will honour faith wherever He finds it expressed no matter who you are. And He will reward it according as He has promised to. This promise is not for perfect sinless people, rather it is for sinners who know they need forgiveness. Your sexual orientation is not what makes you a sinner, you're already a sinner just like everyone else. Only the ones who can see this know they need the Grace provided by and through Christ in their lives. Nobody else need apply. “I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” Luke 5:32

We are not sinners because we sin, sin because we are sinners. We are born with the deck already stacked against us. “For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.” Romans 5:19. Don’t listen to anyone who will condemn you for who you are. They are not true preachers of the grace of Christ through which even they are saved.

Here’s the Apostle Paul’s opinion of himself:

“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus." Romans 7:18 - 8:1

My suggestion is to find a church that won’t judge or condemn you before they will accept you. You work out you own salvation with fear and trembling before God and God alone, you don’t need a hypocritical “judgMENTAList” beside you in your walk with God in faith. God bless you.

DubArk

floydmoon1 wrote: »

You cant get to Heaven through good works.Here are a few verses.In John3:7
Jesus says "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."


For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves [it is] the gift of God Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9

To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 3:26-28

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 2:16

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Titus 3:5

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
James 2:26

See what’s happening here, it’s the well rehearsed so called Jesus freaks spouting out their chosen snippets from the gospels to back up their narrow oppressive convictions on you. They are so quick to point the finger when it suits.

Thanks to them and their god they have started so many wars, had so many murdered, so many people lives made so unhappy all in the name of god. They’d hate to think you could love someone in the name of truth. It’s so easy to copy and paste parts of the bible and interpret what you see want from it to suit a certain bias.

Remember it’s your life and nobody owns it but you. They can spout as much rhetoric fire and brimstone as they want but that doesn’t make them right.

As I stated be true to yourself and you’ll find real happiness as long as in that process you hurt no one else.

You think if god was real that that fact you are a homosexual would make a blind bit of difference.

Celebrate your difference. Rejoice that you have such a wonderful life. No two of us are the same.

No im not an atheist!!!!!!

kelly1

Soul Winner, maybe you haven't read 1 Cor 6?

9 Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, 10 Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.

See also http://www.ewtn.com/library/HUMANITY/homo4.htm

kelly1

DubArk wrote: »

No im not an atheist!!!!!!

A friend of the devil then?

DubArk

kelly1 wrote: »

A friend of the devil then?

I think not! Try and not be sick as im sure it dosent suit you!!
Bless!

Popinjay

Quote:
9 Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, 10 Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.

I think Kelly has just solved it for you CorsetRibbon. You won't be lying with mankind as you're a lesbian. Looks like you're off the hook so . It's only gay men God doesn't like.

Much like the Victorian anti-homosexuality laws in the UK. There was no law against lesbianism.


EDIT: Found more in Kelly's link:

immoral persons, sodomites, kidnappers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine" (1 Tm 1: 9-10). The Greek word in question, arsenokoitai, which the RSV translates differently each time (respectively "homosexuals" and "sodomites"), is in fact a neologism that literally means "males who sleep together".

DubArk

I think Kelly has just solved it for you CorsetRibbon. You won't be lying with mankind as you're a lesbian. Looks like you're off the hook so . It's only gay men God doesn't like.

Much like the Victorian anti-homosexuality laws in the UK. There was no law against lesbianism.


Very good well spotted I’d say Kelly’s copying and pasting every bit of vile rhetoric the can find to try and find that you are a sinner CorsetRibbon and then call us all devil worshipers!! LOL

Maybe Kelly; “The lady doth protest too much”!

andrewh5

kelly1 wrote: »

Is this a joke? Mallards don't have immortal souls!

How do you know? Just because some guy in a frock says that doesn't mean it is true. Bhuddists accept that all animals have souls so why can't you?

rowlandbrowner

is there perhaps an index in the back of the bible that lists what animals have and do not have immortal sous?

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

Soul Winner, maybe you haven't read 1 Cor 6?



See also http://www.ewtn.com/library/HUMANITY/homo4.htm

Could you have picked a less biased source?

Soul Winner

kelly1 wrote: »

Soul Winner, maybe you haven't read 1 Cor 6?



See also http://www.ewtn.com/library/HUMANITY/homo4.htm

I have read it. I have also read the following as well:

Matt 7:1
“Judge not lest ye may be judged for the judgment ye judge ye shall be judged.”

You should worry more about your own salvation Kelly1. You seem to assume that you are OK and that everyone else needs to pass muster before they can be saved. Christ died for sinners He did not die for perfect people. To tell someone that they need to change themselves before they come to God is insult to God. You assume God cannot change them with the indwelling of His Holy Spirit. This is the power that delivers you from sin not fleshly effort which relies on the self to deliver. You have no understanding about the things of God at all. You are bereft of understanding and yet you put up blockades to those who are genuinely seeking Him out and asking questions. Woe to you Kelly1, it is you who needs to repent of your sin and ask forgiveness for it. The OP has been sufficiently put off Christianity due to her Catholic upbringing, don't make it any worse please.

Húrin

kelly1 wrote: »

Hello CR, I see you're in Newbridge, not far from me, I went to school there.

Anyway, you're in a bit of a pickle when it comes to Christianity (not just Catholicism). You have a choice to make between what you want and what God wants. That's the bottom line. God has told us that homosexual acts and lusts are sinful and you can either accept of reject this.

I know this is difficult for you so sorry if this sounds uncaring.

God bless,
Noel.

What an utterly rubbish answer. The blowing up of homosexuality to be the ultimate sin is a great evil in Christianity. It makes me very angry to see anyone driving others away from Christ. Every one of us is a sinner and falling far short of God's moral standards. Homosexuals are no different. When we lust after a woman (who is not one's wife) we are sinning. When you go to work in your job every day, you're tainted by sin. All that does not come from faith is sin. My anger against you is stained by sin.

And that is why, CorsetRibbons, the message of Jesus Christ (which you will find in the first four books of the New Testament, and explained more thoroughly in the rest of it) is such good news. For despite the fact that all of us fall short of God, he* decided that we should be given the chance to form a harmonious relationship with him in our time here, and after we leave our earthly bodies, to stand in his very presence.

And God so loves and understands us that all we must do is place our faith in Jesus Christ as our lord, friend and saviour. No self-flagellation, just open your door to Christ for he is knocking.

*I use 'he' inclusively. The Bible depicts God as both male and female, and based on Genesis (male and female, in his image he created them) and simple logic, God has both sexes in him.

kelly1

Húrin wrote: »

What an utterly rubbish answer. The blowing up of homosexuality to be the ultimate sin is a great evil in Christianity. It makes me very angry to see anyone driving others away from Christ. Every one of us is a sinner and falling far short of God's moral standards. Homosexuals are no different.

Utter rubbish in your opinion. I didn't say homosexuality was the ultimate sin or even sinful. I said that homosexual acts and lust are sinful. Far from trying to drive CorsetRibbons ribbons away from Christ, I'm saying that homosexual acts/lust/thoughts are an impediment to her relationship with Christ. We can't sin deliberately and remain in Christ's friendship. Sin is always an impediment to grace and grave sin destroys grace in the soul by "kicking" the Holy Spirit out.

Húrin wrote: »

And that is why, CorsetRibbons, the message of Jesus Christ (which you will find in the first four books of the New Testament, and explained more thoroughly in the rest of it) is such good news. For despite the fact that all of us fall short of God, he* decided that we should be given the chance to form a harmonious relationship with him in our time here, and after we leave our earthly bodies, to stand in his very presence.

I hope you're not suggesting that Christ's sacrifice on the cross gives us a licence so sin? Christ taught repentance and turning away from sin. He said "Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect".

kelly1

Soul Winner wrote: »

I have read it. I have also read the following as well:

Matt 7:1
“Judge not lest ye may be judged for the judgment ye judge ye shall be judged.”

I'm not judging anyone!

Soul Winner wrote: »

You should worry more about your own salvation Kelly1. You seem to assume that you are OK and that everyone else needs to pass muster before they can be saved. Christ died for sinners He did not die for perfect people.

I'm making no assumptions about my salvation but I have hope in God's mercy.

Soul Winner wrote: »

To tell someone that they need to change themselves before they come to God is insult to God. You assume God cannot change them with the indwelling of His Holy Spirit.

The OP hasn't divulged whether she engages in homosexuals acts and I don't expect her to. So I'm using the word "IF". Before someone can truly come to God they must repent of their sin. God can't forgive the sins of someone who has no intention of changing. And I'm still not judging CorsetRibbons. I'm saying "IF".

Soul Winner wrote: »

This is the power that delivers you from sin not fleshly effort which relies on the self to deliver. You have no understanding about the things of God at all. You are bereft of understanding and yet you put up blockades to those who are genuinely seeking Him out and asking questions. Woe to you Kelly1, it is you who needs to repent of your sin and ask forgiveness for it. The OP has been sufficiently put off Christianity due to her Catholic upbringing, don't make it any worse please.

Hey, steady on there a bit. CorsetRibbons has indicated that she has no intention of changing - quote "I'm definately not willing to cease being a lesbian or practicing lesbianism. I'm gay and thats the way it is."

So how can someone remain obstinately in sin and love God? That is IF she practices homosexuality.

JimiTime

Steady on folks, I think this is a first, but i have to come to Kelly1's defence here.

to remind the 'non' christians posting here, this is a christian forum, so saying that homosexuality is sinful is 'correct' when you are expressing christian ethics on the matter. Obviously, people who are not christian have their own views, but the question was asked in a christian forum, so to start deriding one of its members for honestly answering the question is bang out of order IMO. 'Jesus freaks' was mentioned at one stage. Well the OP decided to ask the 'jesus freaks'.

In a nutshell, is homosexuality sinful in gods eyes? Yes.

when Mary Magdelene found Christ, he said to her 'Go, and sin no more'. So Kelly1 is correct in saying that repentance should be the first part of our journey. There's lots I disagree with him on, but that basic tennet rings true.

Soulwinner, are you saying repentance is not a requirement? Can someone who stubbornly remains in their sin be saved? I'm not looking for a showdown, just be interested in seeing your take on it.

kelly1

Thanks JT, I was wondering when I was going to get some support!

BTW folks, I'm not being smug and self-righteous. I'm stating my beliefs and am not judging anyone. That's reserved for God.

philologos

Popinjay wrote: »

I think Kelly has just solved it for you CorsetRibbon. You won't be lying with mankind as you're a lesbian. Looks like you're off the hook so . It's only gay men God doesn't like.

God loves all mankind whether they are attracted to males and females, we are just instructed not to get sexually involved with someone of our own gender.

Also the rule does apply to lesbians, see Romans 1:

Romans 1:26-27 wrote:

27 For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.

Popinjay

@ Jakkass

Just to get a bit more context in this

Source: NIV
22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;

Where does it say the women lay with other women. I see no specification of which 'unnatural relations' (a paraphrase I admit) the women committed. Could have been bestiality. The only definite mention of members of any sex having relations with the same sex is once again men. So she's still off the hook.

EDIT: Also, it never says here that God sees women lying with women as a bad thing that offends him. It merely says that he made them do it (if that is in fact what he made them do. So God forced them to do bad things which would offend him? That makes perfect sense!

For is it also not written:

Source NIV Revelations 22
18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.

PDN

Popinjay wrote: »

It merely says that he made them do it (if that is in fact what he made them do. So God forced them to do bad things which would offend him? That makes perfect sense!

No, it doesn't say that God made them do it. It says that He gave them over to the desires of their hearts. God in effect said, "OK, you guys want to do that stuff, I won't keep restraining you or holding you back from what you do." If people are determined to do something that God has told them not to do, God will warn them of the consequences, but He won't stop them doing what they want. It's called free will.

DubArk

JimiTime wrote: »

Steady on folks, I think this is a first, but i have to come to Kelly1's defence here.

to remind the 'non' christians posting here, this is a christian forum, so saying that homosexuality is sinful is 'correct' when you are expressing christian ethics on the matter. Obviously, people who are not christian have their own views, but the question was asked in a christian forum, so to start deriding one of its members for honestly answering the question is bang out of order IMO. 'Jesus freaks' was mentioned at one stage. Well the OP decided to ask the 'jesus freaks'.

In a nutshell, is homosexuality sinful in gods eyes? Yes. .

In your eyes! How dare you speak for God and remind people that this is a Christian forum! God gave us free will and we can express that just the same as you and kelly1. Just because you don’t like the replies don’t get all dictatorial about what and what can not be said. If Kelly1’s prepared to pontificate then be prepared for others to express their points of view too. I was called the devil worshiper for having a different point of view. Did you read that?! In a Nutshell my Ar**!

JimiTime

DubArk wrote: »

In your eyes! How dare you speak for God and remind people that this is a Christian forum! God gave us free will and we can express that just the same as you and kelly1. Just because you don’t like the replies don’t get all dictatorial about what and what can not be said.
If Kelly1’s prepared to pontificate then be prepared for others to express their points of view too. I was called the devil worshiper for having a different point of view. Did you read that?! In a Nutshell my Ar**!

Grow up you muppet! I wont even bother responding to your drivel!

Between 'jesus freaks', and
'How do you know a mallard hasn't got a soul? Just because some guy in a frock says that doesn't mean it is true. Bhuddists accept that all animals have souls so why can't you?

This forum gets more ridiculous by the day!

Soul Winner

JimiTime wrote: »

Soulwinner, are you saying repentance is not a requirement? Can someone who stubbornly remains in their sin be saved? I'm not looking for a showdown, just be interested in seeing your take on it.

Hi JT. Not at all, I am not saying that. We need to repent for sure. But repentance the word in the Greek is 'μετάνοιαν' "Metanoia" means to turn from something to something else it has nothing to do with penance and punishing oneself. We are taught that we cannot even Metanoia without God's help. "In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth." 2 Tim 2:25 This verse tells us that repentance itself is a gift from God. The problem with Christianity today is that we start off in the spirit because of our first hearing of faith and then try to finish the trip in the flesh. When I say flesh I mean fleshly effort in works of the law in trying to change our selves. It is impossible to do this in the flesh. We need outside help from God. That is why he gives us His spirit, so that He can do the changing, we just need to keep the connection of faith daily. We need to become more Christ like and less self like. The Gospel teaches us that He will do this for anyone no matter what condition they are in once they have faith in His Word. They do not need to change themselves before God will give them His spirit. God knows we can't change ourselves by mere fleshly effort. That is what Paul's Epistle to the Galatians is all about. They began in the spirit and afterward wanted to finish in the flesh. Paul asks them: Received ye the spirit by the works of the law or the hearing of faith?" “Are you so foolish having begun in the sprit are ye now made perfect in the flesh?”

I contended with Kelly1 because he immediately put up a ‘can't get to God if you are doing such and such’ barrier to the OP. He implied that the OP must change her behaviour before God will accept her. Doesn't the scripture say that "while WE WERE YET SINNERS Christ died for us?" Did we have to change before Christ died for us? No. Did the disciples change before the holy spirit descended on them? No. Same for us. We just need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Don't put up road blocks to true seekers of God. So what if the OP is a Lesbian. That is between her and God. None of anyone else's business. "He that comes unto me I will in no wise cast out." I'm just saying stop putting people off Christianity because you don't like their lifestyle. "No man comes to the Father save the spirit draws him." If the OP is being truly led of the spirit to seek God then who are we to put up blocks by suggesting they must change first? I burn with rage for people who do that and so does God. Be careful. Peter called the centurion he was told to preach to unclean and God said “don't call unclean that which I have cleaned”. When you come to God in faith He does not see your sinful nature anymore. He sees only Christ so stop telling people to change before god will accept them. He does the changing for them through His indwelling spirit, all the fleshly effort in the world will not change your sinful condition. You need the spirit in you by faith.

JimiTime

Soul Winner wrote: »

Hi JT. Not at all, I am not saying that. We need to repent for sure. But repentance the word in the Greek is 'μετάνοιαν' "Metanoia" means to turn from something to something else it has nothing to do with penance and punishing oneself. We are taught that we cannot even Metanoia without God's help. "In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth." 2 Tim 2:25 This verse tells us that repentance itself is a gift from God. The problem with Christianity today is that we start off in the spirit because of our first hearing of faith and then try to finish the trip in the flesh. When I say flesh I mean fleshly effort in works of the law in trying to change our selves. It is impossible to do this in the flesh. We need outside help from God. That is why he gives us His spirit, so that He can do the changing, we just need to keep the connection of faith daily. We need to become more Christ like and less self like. The Gospel teaches us that He will do this for anyone no matter what condition they are in once they have faith in His Word. They do not need to change themselves before God will give them His spirit. God knows we can't change ourselves by mere fleshly effort. That is what Paul's Epistle to the Galatians is all about. They began in the spirit and afterward wanted to finish in the flesh. Paul asks them: Received ye the spirit by the works of the law or the hearing of faith?" “Are you so foolish having begun in the sprit are ye now made perfect in the flesh?”

I contended with Kelly1 because he immediately put up a ‘can't get to God if you are doing such and such’ barrier to the OP. He implied that the OP must change her behaviour before God will accept her. Doesn't the scripture say that "while WE WERE YET SINNERS Christ died for us?" Did we have to change before Christ died for us? No. Did the disciples change before the holy spirit descended on them? No. Same for us. We just need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Don't put up road blocks to true seekers of God. So what if the OP is a Lesbian. That is between her and God. None of anyone else's business. "He that comes unto me I will in no wise cast out." I'm just saying stop putting people off Christianity because you don't like their lifestyle. "No man comes to the Father save the spirit draws him." If the OP is being truly led of the spirit to seek God then who are we to put up blocks by suggesting they must change first? I burn with rage for people who do that and so does God. Be careful. Peter called the centurion he was told to preach to unclean and God said “don't call unclean that which I have cleaned”. When you come to God in faith He does not see your sinful nature anymore. He sees only Christ so stop telling people to change before god will accept them. He does the changing for them through His indwelling spirit, all the fleshly effort in the world will not change your sinful condition. You need the spirit in you by faith.

Good answer.:) However, the OP seemed to me, to be looking for something that was going to accept her Lifestyle. She found that the OT was full of 'nothing but hatread'. She said, 'I'm definately not willing to cease being a lesbian or practicing lesbianism.'
I thought Kelly1's answer just informed her that it is sinful to practice sexual immorality. I know what you mean that it seemed to be presented as a choice, 'be a christian or be a lesbian'. However, you seem to be saying that the holy spirit will change her anyway? Is it just the order of events we are talking about? Find christ, and the good changes will come, rather than, change and christ will come?

can i continue to be an adulterer but have faith and be saved?
can i continue to be a robber but have faith and be saved?
can i continue to practice homosexuality but have faith and be saved?

kelly1

Soul Winner wrote: »

I contended with Kelly1 because he immediately put up a ‘can't get to God if you are doing such and such’ barrier to the OP. He implied that the OP must change her behaviour before God will accept her. Doesn't the scripture say that "while WE WERE YET SINNERS Christ died for us?" Did we have to change before Christ died for us? No. Did the disciples change before the holy spirit descended on them? No. Same for us. We just need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Don't put up road blocks to true seekers of God. So what if the OP is a Lesbian. That is between her and God. None of anyone else's business. "He that comes unto me I will in no wise cast out." I'm just saying stop putting people off Christianity because you don't like their lifestyle. "No man comes to the Father save the spirit draws him." If the OP is being truly led of the spirit to seek God then who are we to put up blocks by suggesting they must change first? I burn with rage for people who do that and so does God. Be careful. Peter called the centurion he was told to preach to unclean and God said “don't call unclean that which I have cleaned”. When you come to God in faith He does not see your sinful nature anymore. He sees only Christ so stop telling people to change before god will accept them. He does the changing for them through His indwelling spirit, all the fleshly effort in the world will not change your sinful condition. You need the spirit in you by faith.

Soul Winner, you're preaching a dangerous doctrine.

John 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews, who believed him: If you continue in my word, you shall be my disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him: We are the seed of Abraham, and we have never been slaves to any man: how sayest thou: you shall be free? 34 Jesus answered them: Amen, amen I say unto you: that whosoever committeth sin, is the servant of sin.

You make it sound like the Holy Spirit takes over everything including our free will. God doesn't prevent us from sinning but grace most certainly helps to avoid sin.

PDN

JimiTime wrote: »

Grow up you muppet! I wont even bother responding to your drivel!

Between 'jesus freaks', and
'How do you know a mallard hasn't got a soul? Just because some guy in a frock says that doesn't mean it is true. Bhuddists accept that all animals have souls so why can't you?

This forum gets more ridiculous by the day!

Yes, the amount of muppetry does seem to be increasing of late.

Soul Winner

JimiTime wrote: »

Good answer.:) However, the OP seemed to me, to be looking for something that was going to accept her Lifestyle. She found that the OT was full of 'nothing but hatread'. She said, 'I'm definately not willing to cease being a lesbian or practicing lesbianism.'
I thought Kelly1's answer just informed her that it is sinful to practice sexual immorality. I know what you mean that it seemed to be presented as a choice, 'be a christian or be a lesbian'. However, you seem to be saying that the holy spirit will change her anyway? Is it just the order of events we are talking about? Find christ, and the good changes will come, rather than, change and christ will come?

can i continue to be an adulterer but have faith and be saved?

can i continue to be a robber but have faith and be saved?

can i continue to practice homosexuality but have faith and be saved?

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:9.

When you act in faith on God's promises two things happen. 1) God does not see you as a sinner anymore. He looks at you in a judicial sense as a sinless person like Christ even though you are not. As long as you keep the connection of faith then God sees you as if you were Christ Himself. Because He seen Christ as a sinner on the cross even though He actually wasn't.

2) God puts His spirit in you, which said spirit if maintained long enough will produce the fruit. This fruit is what true good works are. They cannot be done by observance of the law. The law can only condemn the sinner it cannot not bend to help without compromising itself. We need God's spirit in us and the only way to get it in us is by faith, acting on God's promises. Paul describes a warfare that takes place when God's spirit is in us by faith. There are now two natures at work. And they are contrary to one another. You're old nature he calls the old man and the new nature he calls the new man. Every now and then the old nature will get out. Paul calls this the old man taken over. This happens to all of us at some stage or another in our lives and when it happens to a brother then we who are spiritual must restore such a one in the spirit of meekness literally with rebuke and take heed lest we also be over taken for the same old nature dwells in us.

Only when we die are we separated fully (sanctified) from this old nature and are free to be with the Lord forever in our new state. But as long as we are still in the flesh there is a danger that we can slip back into our old ways, but the new nature cannot sin only the old nature can sin and is sinful. But God does not see that nature in us anymore like I said, he views us through the telescope of Christ because He died for our sins and paid the penalty for our sins. This is not only true when you become a Christian. This is always true no matter what stage you are at in your Christian walk of faith. We always need this grace. Anyone who doesn't need it is not a Christian because it is by grace that we are saved through faith and that not of ourselves, it is a gift of God not of works lest any man should boast.

One of things that pissed Jesus off the most during His earthly ministry was judging. No matter how bad somebody else might have been to judge that person was a worse sin. Why? Because we don't have the right to judge anyone. Only a sinless person can judge a sinful person. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Who is Kelly1 to point anything out to the OP about how to live? Does Kelly1 live a perfect life? Then why point out things to the OP about sins that he doesn't even know if she commits? There are lots of things that God doesn't like and maybe lesbianism is one of them but who are we to condemn someone for it even if it was a sin that God condemned? Only God can judge, we can’t. If everyone adhered to that rule then the world would be a better place. More people would consider Christianity as a way to live rather than a thing to avoid. Stop judging!!!

Fanny Cradock

DubArk wrote: »

In your eyes! How dare you speak for God and remind people that this is a Christian forum! God gave us free will and we can express that just the same as you and kelly1. Just because you don’t like the replies don’t get all dictatorial about what and what can not be said. If Kelly1’s prepared to pontificate then be prepared for others to express their points of view too. I was called the devil worshiper for having a different point of view. Did you read that?! In a Nutshell my Ar**!

Your replies on this thread make you seem very angry and very bitter. You need to relax.

Soul Winner

kelly1 wrote: »

Soul Winner, you're preaching a dangerous doctrine.

Am I now? How so? How did you come to that conclusion? The Pope? Believe it or not there are other people in the world who are Christian who don't need the Pope or the Catholic Church in order to be a Christian.

kelly1 wrote: »

You make it sound like the Holy Spirit takes over everything including our free will. God doesn't prevent us from sinning but grace most certainly helps to avoid sin.

Avoid sin? We are sinners. We sin. We are being saved from our sinful natures which are utterly sinful. Paul calls sin Harmatia in the New Testament. It means to simply fall short of the mark. And that mark is the perfect standard of the law. The Pope falls short of this standard also as does everyone else. When you can live up to it then you can preach it to others until then you must preach that Christ lived up to it and He died for everyone that can't. He kept it for everyone by laying His life down as a ransom paid in full. Grace is unmerited favour from God. That means that it cannot be earned. As soon as you can say you've earned God’s grace then it ceases to be grace, it has become debt. If you want your dues for your works of the law then you will get them. The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life.

Popinjay

PDN wrote: »

No, it doesn't say that God made them do it. It says that He gave them over to the desires of their hearts. God in effect said, "OK, you guys want to do that stuff, I won't keep restraining you or holding you back from what you do." If people are determined to do something that God has told them not to do, God will warn them of the consequences, but He won't stop them doing what they want. It's called free will.

Emphasis mine.

When did he ever tell them that they couldn't engage in lesbian acts - reference to lesbianism in the Bible other than this paragraph?

To repaet from my post at 15:02 on the 11th:

The Greek word in question, arsenokoitai, which the RSV translates differently each time (respectively "homosexuals" and "sodomites"), is in fact a neologism that literally means "males who sleep together"

Quoted from a link Kelly provided.

God did not even say that the 'relations' were natural or unnatural because neither God nor Jesus were recounting the events described (for the purposes of the discussion I will accept the premise that God inspired the writing of every book of the Bible but I don't believe we can say God dictated it word for word - am I wrong?). Seems like a bit of editorialising to me.

DubArk

JimiTime wrote: »

Grow up you muppet! I wont even bother responding to your drivel!

Between 'jesus freaks', and
'How do you know a mallard hasn't got a soul? Just because some guy in a frock says that doesn't mean it is true. Bhuddists accept that all animals have souls so why can't you?

This forum gets more ridiculous by the day!

That was cleaver………. good retort! NOT!!! I wash my hands of this ridicules nonsense that’s been spouted by you and your ilk. Do us a favor dont ever respond!
:D:D

kelly1

Soul Winner wrote: »

Avoid sin? We are sinners. We sin. We are being saved from our sinful natures which are utterly sinful. Paul calls sin Harmatia in the New Testament. It means to simply fall short of the mark. And that mark is the perfect standard of the law. The Pope falls short of this standard also as does everyone else. When you can live up to it then you can preach it to others until then you must preach that Christ lived up to it and He died for everyone that can't. He kept it for everyone by laying His life down as a ransom paid in full. Grace is unmerited favour from God. That means that it cannot be earned. As soon as you can say you've earned God’s grace then it ceases to be grace, it has become debt. If you want your dues for your works of the law then you will get them. The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life.

Yes we are all sinners and nobody but Christ is without sin but we are exhorted by Christ not to sin. I know grace is unmerited, it's a free gift from God. I'm talking about attachment to sin. You can't love God and sin. If there is a desire to sin, we can't please God. Everyone who loves God strives to avoid sin, helped by God's grace but grace doesn't prevent sin, we still have free will. Grace just makes it easier to love God and avoid sin.

Matthew 5:48 Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.

John 8:11 Who said: No man, Lord. And Jesus said: Neither will I condemn thee. Go, and now sin no more.

John 8:34 Jesus answered them: Amen, amen I say unto you: that whosoever committeth sin, is the servant of sin.

John 15:22 If I had not come, and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.

JimiTime

DubArk wrote: »

That was cleaver……….

Oh the Irony.

I wash my hands of this ridicules nonsense that’s been spouted by you and your ilk.

Thanks. Much appreciated. Don't forget to scrub under them nails.

kelly1

Popinjay wrote: »

When did he ever tell them that they couldn't engage in lesbian acts - reference to lesbianism in the Bible other than this paragraph?

To repaet from my post at 15:02 on the 11th:

The Greek word in question, arsenokoitai, which the RSV translates differently each time (respectively "homosexuals" and "sodomites"), is in fact a neologism that literally means "males who sleep together"

Quoted from a link Kelly provided.

God did not even say that the 'relations' were natural or unnatural because neither God nor Jesus were recounting the events described (for the purposes of the discussion I will accept the premise that God inspired the writing of every book of the Bible but I don't believe we can say God dictated it word for word - am I wrong?). Seems like a bit of editorialising to me.

This is incredible! It really is amazing what people will do to justify sin!

The New Testament is the word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit and written by the Apostles who were taught by Jesus.

Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Why would God condemn male homosexuality and not female???

JimiTime

kelly1 wrote: »

You can't love God and sin.

How can the above quote be true? If we 'all' sin, then that means 'nobody' loves God. I am assuming the above quote needs clarification?

Popinjay

kelly1 wrote: »

You can't love God and sin.

Have you not sinned once since you found your faith again?

kelly1 wrote: »

...The New Testament is the word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit and written by the Apostles who were taught by Jesus.

Why would God condemn male homosexuality and not female???

So a certain amount of editorialising either during the first writings or if you really really want during one of the later translations is possible?

Well my reasons for beleiving that God would do that are because he doesn't exist but we'll ignore that since it has no great relevance to the current discussion. I don't know how you're going to justify it but I'm willing to listen if you can show where God said lesbians were sinning.

And don't forget adding to the Bible in anyway is a terrible sin so unless God said lesbians = bad you have no scriptural justification, just your own prejudices.

kelly1

JimiTime wrote: »

How can the above quote be true? If we 'all' sin, then that means 'nobody' loves God. I am assuming the above quote needs clarification?

Yes, I should have been more precise. You can't love God and love sin or sin deliberately.

Popinjay

kelly1 wrote: »

Yes, I should have been more precise. You can't love God and love sin or sin deliberately.

That makes a bit more sense. I hereby retract my question of your sinful behaviour since rediscovering your faith. Obviously if somebody asks you not to do (or to do) something and you go ahead and do (or don't) whatever it was, you're not displaying a lot of love for them.

On the other hand, I've never not loved my mother and in my youth (defined as between the ages of 12 and 18 by the Children Act 2001 - in case anyone wants to cite childish ignorance of my actions) I manys a time went againt a direct order from her; curfews, etc. And ain't nobody gonna tell me that means I didn't love my momma.

JimiTime

kelly1 wrote: »

Yes, I should have been more precise. You can't love God and love sin or sin deliberately.

Hmmm. I do know what you are saying Noel, and indeed such a quality is admirable in a person. However, look at king David with Batsheeba. He took someone elses wife, had her husband killed, did he not love God? i think people who love God deliberately sin frequently, however, like the Lords prayer says, we ask for forgiveness and repent. Peter denying Christ. Jonah. Moses. All people who sinned quite deliberately, but all loved God no?
Popinjay gave a good analogy above, about how he loves his mum, but frequently disobeyed her.