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Homeless / Begging community in Sligo
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20-02-2008 3:58pm#1
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I have to say that this debate and the whole tone of it to me is really uncomfortable. I know I aint going to be popular for saying so but I feel it needs to be said.
There two separate issues going on here. There’s Charities using a hard sell tactic to try and get funds in. Since the lottery it’s become harder to collect funds on the ground afaik. Alot of places don’t have the capacity and mightn’t be administratively organised to manage to secure central government funding. Okay, so in many ways it turns alot of people against the charity in question by the looks of it. That needs to be taken into consideration if charities want to keep a good profile, because a lot of it now is about marketing. They may need to be more innovative about how they do it. There’s also the situation that charities have had to do stuff the state should be doing anyway. What aren’t we up in arms about that? We still voting the same policy makers back in. In the meantime the social economy need funds, why penalise it?
The other more crucial thing is how we treat the more vulnerable members of our society, and lets make it explicit how we treat our immigrant populations too (legit or not) people who are now on the verges of our society. What do we know about her? This is just one disabled older woman who is begging for money. She’s got crutches when she doesn’t have a wheelchair.
Everything else is a heap of conjecture. Leg sprawled out for attention? Do you know what its like to have arthritis for example? Who knows what other medical condition she might have? . She’s begging-but presumption is she raking it in. Does anyone know that? There are plenty of services to feed people.... Is she receiving any of them? What’s the basic you want to give someone to humanise them, (is subsidising someone’s food and board enough) She is from an ethnic minority that we have heard negative things about? We shouldn’t generalise and we need to treat people as individuals. Unless you have been down there talking to someone on their level and see how people passing them treat them you can’t believe how being ignored, being insulted through the sneers etc dehumanises people. People can backlash from that.
We know nothing really about her. Because as far I can see nobodies talked to her......:(
God forbid we would be in the same situation. Have'nt we forgotton. Many of our Brothers, cousins, and uncles were n the same boat in England. Lots of them went over there because there was nothing for them here, economic exiles, survivors of institutional abse etc. Nothing worse than been treated with suspicion, (your a terrorist), your not legit and taking our services, go back to your own country etc. Theres still too many on the streets over there. There are multiple reasons why people find themselves on the streets. Too many people growing older in squalor because they were made feel they dont belong, feel fightened to gain entitlements that are rightfully theres. And they dont know whether with all the changes they could fit in here....
We haven’t learnt much have we?
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I have to say that this debate and the whole tone of it to me is really uncomfortable. I know I aint going to be popular for saying so but I feel it needs to be said.
There two separate issues going on here. There’s Charities using a hard sell tactic to try and get funds in. Since the lottery it’s become harder to collect funds on the ground afaik. Alot of places don’t have the capacity and mightn’t be administratively organised to manage to secure central government funding. Okay, so in many ways it turns alot of people against the charity in question by the looks of it. That needs to be taken into consideration if charities want to keep a good profile, because a lot of it now is about marketing. They may need to be more innovative about how they do it. There’s also the situation that charities have had to do stuff the state should be doing anyway. What aren’t we up in arms about that? We still voting the same policy makers back in. In the meantime the social economy need funds, why penalise it?
The other more crucial thing is how we treat the more vulnerable members of our society, and lets make it explicit how we treat our immigrant populations too (legit or not) people who are now on the verges of our society. What do we know about her? This is just one disabled older woman who is begging for money. She’s got crutches when she doesn’t have a wheelchair.
Everything else is a heap of conjecture. Leg sprawled out for attention? Do you know what its like to have arthritis for example? Who knows what other medical condition she might have? . She’s begging-but presumption is she raking it in. Does anyone know that? There are plenty of services to feed people.... Is she receiving any of them? What’s the basic you want to give someone to humanise them, (is subsidising someone’s food and board enough) She is from an ethnic minority that we have heard negative things about? We shouldn’t generalise and we need to treat people as individuals. Unless you have been down there talking to someone on their level and see how people passing them treat them you can’t believe how being ignored, being insulted through the sneers etc dehumanises people. People can backlash from that.
We know nothing really about her. Because as far I can see nobodies talked to her......:(
God forbid we would be in the same situation. Have'nt we forgotton. Many of our Brothers, cousins, and uncles were n the same boat in England. Lots of them went over there because there was nothing for them here, economic exiles, survivors of institutional abse etc. Nothing worse than been treated with suspicion, (your a terrorist), your not legit and taking our services, go back to your own country etc. Theres still too many on the streets over there. There are multiple reasons why people find themselves on the streets. Too many people growing older in squalor because they were made feel they dont belong, feel fightened to gain entitlements that are rightfully theres. And they dont know whether with all the changes they could fit in here....
We haven’t learnt much have we?
I see your point, but I disagree. There is no reason whatsoever that in our society an amputee needs to sit on the ground begging. I can't see how she is raking it in. I have never given her anything, nor seen anyone else do so. This woman chooses her lifestyle. How she hasn't died from the cold is a miracle.
As for the Chuggers, yes those charities need to re-think fundraising procedures. It irritates everyone. FACT. (Not really a fact as such!)
I didn't vote for this government, and had many doorstep confrontations about these, and many other issues with them. Deaf ears.
Solution? I don't know.0 -
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Tuppence, I have a few points to make.
How do you think people should treat these 'vulnerable members of society' then? Do you think people should give her money? How much?
IMO, to do so is just perpetuating the cycle of people begging on the streets. Is that what you want?
I think people are basing those assumptions on their own past experiences, reliable accounts from friends family and what they have heard / read about foreigners especially the type who this thread is about. BTW, anyone can have a serious medical condition, if I did, I certainly wouldn't use it to get pity or money off people. I'd say she could be making a pretty penny out of it, yes. Otherwise she wouldn't be sitting there all the time, blocking peoples way.
The irony is if you even look at them or try to talk to them all you get back, is 'money money' with the hand out. Not even a please either. They don't know english or they pretend not to.
People are on the streets begging for a diverse amount of reasons, but it really wouldn’t really be a lifestyle choice. I suppose that suggests that you have your basic needs met and/or are able to meet them yourself to afford to have choices.
People can be vulnerable through mental health problems, though drug and alcohol problems, though long term unemployment, through age and physical disability. When you’re not economic productive you become more vulnerable, you are more likely to lose what accommodation you have. Sometimes it’s a question of being unable to manage your own affairs because of your health problems etc. You can even lose council accommodation for non-payment of your rent, which in alot of cases can be avoided.
What I would be advocating in sensitive service intervention coupled with an adequate income level. There is a real need for proper community health services and outreach services for people who are vulnerable to assist them, empower them back to become full members of society again in whatever capacity they can. I really thing from my experience in the most part that’s what people want.
Unfortunately, there’s too much voluntary ad hoc stuff going on out there, good in parts but patchy. The government hasn’t prioritised community and welfare services. The mental health services are a joke, addiction services as too our services for older people. Everything is focused on acute care, crisis management as opposed to intervening when you can do something. A lot of people with mental health problems and addiction problems are diagnosed first though the prison service because they have done something illegal. That’s wrong, that’s inhumane becuase I really think they could had a right to have a different sort of life if they were supported.
In the case of asylum seekers/refugees there is the case that many are barred from be part of the labour market. Board and keep is paid for at source. And as you can imagine if you have no other choices about going home and what home has to offer, begging might become an imperative rather than an option. I dug this up re asylum seekers risk to poverty. I am sure if things have changed policy wise others may let us know.
http://www.irishrefugeecouncil.ie/press05/poverty.html
Its good to keep an open mind too and challenge things even whats accepted. We all can fall in to our own traps of negative stereotyping and its all persuasive, because it can reinforced by so many. (I have had to really work on my stereotypes of for example donegal people since wee daniel but I think I am pulling through now
:D)
Whether you give people money or not is a personal choice. I do when I can. When theres nothing there for people, theres nothing there in the meantime. I don’t tend to blame the person on the street, for as I see it life has a habit of dealing a seriously bad hand to many. Yes many of us find resources and the capacity, networks and family to pull ourselves through if we get those knocks.
Some aren’t so lucky and need help to do so.0 -
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anyone familiar with the guys cleaning windshields in traffic at the top of john st??
whats their story!!!
John Street, Hughes Bridge and Cartron!
:mad:
I wouldn't let them near my car! Really pi$$es me off!
One of them came up to the car one day and I signalled "no" when he went to wash the windsheild. He Smiled at me and moved on.
Big mouth of Gold teeth and plenty of rings, chains and bracelets etc.
Oh the irony!
Is this practice illegal though?
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Its a bit of a chicken and egg. That arguement presupposes that the person again is at fault. I think the life expectancy and morbidity that follow people who are poverty stricken, and marginalised in many ways might dispute that. Higher instances of cardio vasculr disease, certain types of cancers, higher rates pulmonary disorders. Some of it down to the fundamental of not having an opportunity for a healthy diet some of it because people may be due to not having an insulated house, higher smoking, poor education. etc.tulipandthistle wrote: »I really don't feel charitable to people who use disabilities (her outside BOI) and babies (O' Connell Street) to beg. I've had loads of experience with beggars all around Europe and it does leave a bad taste in the mouth.
Using the our own travelling population as a case in point, the average life expectancy is 59 years of age following a recent report......
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/europe/life-expectancy-of-irish-travellers-still-at-1940s-levels-despite-economic-boom-454993.html
The same would be through about infant mortality which is very high compared to Irish people in general. Now alot of other childcare issues could be sorted our through education and some of it may just be down to lack of support networks, some cultural practices who is to know.
I know it is a long stretch to compare ethnic minorites like this but I just wanted to illustrate that there is more than personal choice involved. Are these people disabled first and use it, or does the life that they are forced to live lower their chances of a healthy life causing premature death? 0 -
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I was going to bladder on about who deems what as being acceptable to live on? For example the government implies a wider definition than income alone.
People are living in poverty if their income and resources (material, cultural and social) are so inadequate as to preclude them from having a standard of living which is regarded as acceptable by Irish society generally. As a result of inadequate income and other resources people may be excluded and marginalised from participating in activities which are considered the norm for other people in society."
Poverty is more than having a crust to live on, its more than whether a relative runs a car it more than the tax payer subsidises yor bed and board. I was going to bladder on about whats acceptable must different fo all of us. Anyhow I reckon I am suffering from charitable fatigue, cos im climbing down from me soapbox. (for the night anyway lads.)
Btw sorry takola i meant to get back to you that episode in the house didnt sound very nice at all. Thankfully nothing was taken otherwise you would had have had to get the guards. Nobody likes having to lock your room especially when you never had to before.:(0 -
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People who are begging may not become rich doing it, but the contention is that it's unnecessary for survival if people are willing to avail of the services available.
"We all can fall in to our own traps of negative stereotyping and its all persuasive, because it can reinforced by so many". I think you'll find it's just as easy to become an apologist for people who choose to live such lifestyles, putting themselves on the margins of society. As badly run as our country is, we all pay taxes towards provisions for people who need them. Irish people who found themselves on the streets of London in years gone by did not have the array of services one could expect in any modern European country, and often would have gladly taken a ticket home if it had been provided. A large percentage of those who did become homeless admit that often it was more or less self inflicted due to alcoholism.
The vast majority of people, having enough to survive on, would not beg. Alot of these people have bypassed the taboo of beggary by disengaging with Irish society. The mercenary attitude they have towards it is sickening. I think most people have the intuition to know when something stinks, and nobody likes being a soft touch.
I can sleep at night knowing I didn't give anything to a begger, because I know the services are there if they want to avail of them.
You must be sleeping in a different country than I am then, cos theres no statutory right to community care where I am! Theres no proper co-ordinated state community services except the voluntary sector trying to do want the state should be doing oft times in an ad hoc way, taking over where the church left off. There they are scraping and fundraising and getting a hard time of it too cos the public are exhausted giving.
No i am not an apoligist for every time of behaviour just as I dont believe in what I see as a Thatcherite policy that the person is the centre of all ill.
People oft times bypass the taboo of begging cause they have addiction problems or they havent a choice either. I do believe that essentially people shoud be given a chance, and alot of times if you invest you get back. Even maybe "your one outside the BoI"
The irish I was talking about in England were the ones that were forced over in the 40's and the 50's. No they wouldnt have come back here with the price of the boat cos there was nothing for them here. The services in england including the equality legislation under the Blair governement made extremely important strives to build confidence in the Irish community as too did the Irish governement who supported innovative Irish outreach services to the more isolated, (and god forbid "vulnerable"). There is a huge issue of alcoholism in the Irish community in England as there is too with the Irish community here. Whether we accept is as a problem or want to bury or heads that its just a lifestyle thing that people are being greedy negates the fact that its a serious issue for many people who cant control it. Its having an impact in the workplace and productivity in sick days.
Sometimes it destroys peoples lifes putting there tenure, family and health. Thats not greed its an illness surely.
We pay taxes all right but I thought you of all people woudl criticze the wisdom of where these are going. I for one dont thing that any kind of community and rehabilliative and outreach services are prioritised to the extent they should. And thats the kind of thing that I get night tremors about. 0 -
I was going to bladder on about who deems what as being acceptable to live on? For example the government implies a wider definition than income alone.
People are living in poverty if their income and resources (material, cultural and social) are so inadequate as to preclude them from having a standard of living which is regarded as acceptable by Irish society generally. As a result of inadequate income and other resources people may be excluded and marginalised from participating in activities which are considered the norm for other people in society."
Poverty is more than having a crust to live on, its more than whether a relative runs a car it more than the tax payer subsidises yor bed and board. I was going to bladder on about whats acceptable must different fo all of us. Anyhow I reckon I am suffering from charitable fatigue, cos im climbing down from me soapbox. (for the night anyway lads.)
I don't get your argument here at all Tuppence!
These people have a house. They have a car. They have enough food. They're getting enough money to live on.
Are you saying they should be getting more because they may be used to living better? Because what I read from your argument was they're poverty stricken because they can't go out doing the things they're used to doing.
In my opinion poverty stricken is when you don't have enough money to make your rent even though you've scraped the bottom of the barrel and stretched every single thing. So you have to go without dinner on wednesday and thursday to have enough money to pay your rent. It's not being deprived of a good drinking session or those fab new clothes in Aware.
I've read every one of your arguments and I've been quite interested in this thread. But regardless of every one of your arguments I still do not consider those people sitting on the streets begging acceptable. They have enough money to live on. I would understand the need if they had absolutely no income but they do! They're being supported by the state and because of this womans disabilities they're being supported better than most!
The husband sits at home all day long doing absolutely nothing when if they're that desperate for money he could get a job. The daughter could get a job. I just don't see how anyone could deem them begging on the streets acceptable!Btw sorry takola i meant to get back to you that episode in the house didnt sound very nice at all. Thankfully nothing was taken otherwise you would had have had to get the guards. Nobody likes having to lock your room especially when you never had to before.:(
I'm glad too that nothing was taken because then I would have lost my temper and that's rarely pleasant!
I'm not whinging about having to lock my doors. You lock the doors when you're leaving the house regardless. That wouldn't be an issue.
But I should not have to keep all the doors in my house locked when I'm there! I lived in a prison for a couple of weeks because it wasn't safe to leave the door open when I walked out of the kitchen and into the sitting room. That is not pleasant! :mad:0 -
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No I am saying they may be defined as suffering from poverty using the definition above not if they can do the things that they are used to doing, its can they do the things we are used to doing! It’s using a relative scale of measuring poverty. In a modern advanced country how much is enough? We can afford to lift people out of scrapping a dehumanised existence. Is there a willingness there, I don’t think so. Of course we can’t afford to reinforce dependency. Look theres a whole debate in what some people cynically call the "poverty industry" about this!
That’s why imo complementary service provision is essential. There are barriers that inhibit people from being economic productive in the workplace (as this sometime is the value put on people too much I think). Some of these barriers the equality authority are tackling using legislation because there is an awareness that for example people have been penalised from getting work due to age, ethnicity and disability. Then of course there are the addiction problems, being deskilled from long-term unemployment and the rest.
What the people in this situation are receiving from the state is abit uncertain is it not, what they could receive is extremely different depending on their status i.e. whether their asylum application was agreed. If they were still asylum seeking, husband would not be allowed to work anyway. They would be eligible to same services as the indigenous population if they had refugee status I think. I kind of think that maybe they have that cos the privately renting thing. I think you are entitled to some help for a car, maybe its adaptations I don’t know?!
Anyway then were back at the beginning, people can beg for multiple reasons. If for example you know someone who has a real addiction its an expensive problem to maintain and forces many out on the street. However, if you rehab someone and get them back out you actually reinvest peoples potential. Being a pragmatist not an apologist this time!
I'm glad too that nothing was taken because then I would have lost my temper and that's rarely pleasant!
Go Girl!;):D0 -
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I know the system is festering with ineptitude, corruption and misuse of tax money. That's a problem the government needs (and won't bother) to address. But regardless of where assistance comes from, it's there in one form or another. The days of anyone starving to death are gone in Ireland. Is it right to beg for anything other than enough to sustain life? I don't think so. Begging as a means to live a life more akin to the general population is professional begging, and in my view, not acceptable.
Its not right that anyone should feel forced to go onto the streets through an inadequate income, or to supplement a habit, because they lost their job and tenancy through illness, though domestic violence, through mental health. Its not right, in fact its pitiful. There is assiatnce out there of the most basic form. There is a lack of innovative service provision thats attempts to treat the person as a whole. Where are the one stop shops for information? When was the last time you tried to negotiate the quagmire that is the welfare system in Ireland?
Moving from the local social welfare office to the community welfare officer and back to get assistance and rent allowance. And then theres the medical card ...The bureaucratic form filling that is involved in getting on the housing waiting list is laughable, like having to get a police stamp or member of judiciary as proof! (how welcoming is that ffs). Barriers upon barriers.
Try negotating these if your first language isnt english, try that if you have literacy issues and arent able to read and write properly, try that when the voices are talking to you and you dont know whether you are coming or going, try that when you dont know whether the father of your child will catch up with you the beat the living daylights out of you..... Are we really living in the real world here.......Basically I dont think that it is that hard to find yourself caught in a poverty trap, too far from the street maybe even because of lack information about entitlement and negotiating the welfare system. Anyone that is'nt visibly dying of malnutrition is then a "professional beggar".
Have we come so far and lost so much?
In the case of "your one outside BOI", if her family are not willing to look after her in a way that we see as appropriate, she should be taken into care. It doesn't give her the right to splay herself on the public footpath looking for money from passers by. If the average person is unwilling or unable to help a relative in similar circumstances, they offload them on the state. They do not send them out to beg on the streets.
Jeepers the nanny state has arrived. How are we going to police this?
Best lock up your relatives in case they get mistaken for professional beggars or taken into care ?! What do you reckon sectioning her for leg splaying. :eek: Wheres the woman in all of this? 0 -
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Maybe because of that.. The law making it illegal has been struck down (http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2007/0315/breaking47.htm)
Perhaps we can find more quotes of Il gatto to play ping pong with!
Michael McDowell is gone now, he used to be the one that was great at writing unnecessary legislation. Anyway i think the guards have more to be doing then shifting people around because we find them a nuisance on the pavement! We will be shifting smokers from outside premises next...We best not ring 999 on this one.
Ps Groan not the PC reference! I was wondering how long it would take to come.
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As long as it would be possible, I wouldn't see a relative begging. Thereafter I would leave them to the care of the state. Moreover, I wouldn't deposite myself in a country where I had no intention or ability to integrate, and then live on the gratuities of others.
Professional begging indicates that you beg as a livelyhood rather than pure necessity. Pure necessity is not an issue in modern Ireland.
The scenario you've put forward of wife beating is not relevent to the issue being discussed here. It plays to people's sensitivities, but is pure supposition.
The nanny state implies the government controlling people's freedoms, such as enforcing smoking bans, over regulation of licencing laws and the like. The fact that someone should be taken into care before being reduced to begging can only be seen as a positive aspect of a state.
I'm not some heartless ogre who's dismissing someone more unfortunate than myself. That doesn't mean I agree with anyone either begging for profit or spurning what provisions there are.
As far as leg splaying goes, anyone deemed to be causing an obstruction of a public highway can legitimately be moved on by Gardai.
I am just trying to promote a pause before jumping to conclusions about professional begging because to me it’s a dangerous concept and if used inappropriately it could be a way to victimise. Ah hey they are all getting enough, sure as much as me. The Irish social welfare is great. Therefore they are abusing the system...
What’s happened to our tolerance? If theres someone going slower ahead of us why does that irritate so much? If theres someone with one leg( for the love of everything sacred) on a pavement taking up too much space, live and let live. Is the pace of life really that sressful? What’s happened to our tolerance of diversity?
If these people are indeed Roma gypsies. They have been historically persecuted in concentration camps, and by many cultures, as well as Romania recently because of their nomadic lifestyle. Who says they are not trying to integrate in as much as they can. Is there language facilities for them, proper work placements etc. The family and family appears important to them too. Should we force people to "integrate" is that what you are saying? What’s enough when the power differential is so big, the boundaries might continually be moving.
I would reckon that putting someone into a home is a very crude measure of a civilized state. If you read any literature re needs especially of Irish older people anyway who are frail, their own home is where they want to be. It is a failure of supporting the family and the individual at home, while the lack of community care services on the ground is also a contributory fault in all of this. 0 -
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