Puppy farming.

peasant

GA361 wrote: »

Inbreeding only occurs with careless breeders.It is these breeders who don't even bother to check their bitch's bloodlines(or just disregard them)which are the problem.

Rubbish ...inbreeding (or line breeding, as they call it) is the result of the fixation on show winners as breeding material. If only a limited number of dogs are allowed to reproduce, inbreeding is the inevitable result.

You can be as "careful" as you like ...sooner or later you'll run out of possible breeding partners whose bloodlines haven't appeared in the bloodline of your dog before ...the base just isn't there.

Add to that that most breeders want offspring of the top dogs only and actively seek out the few winning bloodlines, and inbreeding is unavoidable.

shinners007

Shinners-007,I'm not saying that you are a careless breeder,but many people who own both the stud and the bitch tend to be careless breeders.

I totally disagree with you. It is those who randomly seek male studs or vice versa that are careless. Owning my male and showing him and his tempermnt and all his health certs to new puppy owners is a very important aspect of dog breeding. You wouldnt try sell puppies without showing the mum would you? So why wouldnt show your pet (the stud) and the sire of the pups to people aswell?? I just dont get your reasoning behind suggesting that oqning the parents of the puppies from when they them selves where pups and actually owning the stud is CARELESS??? Please explain that???

I have more than 16 bloodlines on each of mine to prove their lines are not crossed or linked to each other, not a mandatory 6 needed by the kennel clubs to breed (which is line breeding). And i totally agree with peasant some where down the line they will cross .And may i add these so called top dogs may not even be healthy! People now import dogs from the UK and scotland to try reduce the risk of line breeding occuring.

Inbreeding only occurs with careless breeders.It is these breeders who don't even bother to check their bitch's bloodlines(or just disregard them)which are the problem

I think your statement speaks for itself you clearly need to go do some research and educate yourself on dog breeding, sorry but enough is enough your statements are getting quite ridicilious now. :rolleyes: You think you only need to look at the dams papers to ensure that line breeding doesnt occour?? oh please.....

Lauragoesmad

Shinners, have any of your boxers had white pups?
Don't they get health troubles no matter what the blood lines? Like bad sight and hearing and even a much shorter life expectancy than normal?
My Da's mate who breeds boxers told me that. Just wondering if thats true?

shinners007

Hi there, none of my boxers have ever had white boxers (which are prone to deafness and skin allergies).

Don't they get health troubles no matter what the blood lines? Like bad sight and hearing and even a much shorter life expectancy than normal?
My Da's mate who breeds boxers told me that. Just wondering if thats true?

Well any dog can get health problems at some stage in their life, basically inbreeding/ where line breeding has occured leads to a higher risk of problems as their is genetic crosses. Hence if you have bloodlines that do not cross your reducing the risk. The sight and hearing should be tested before breeding again reducing the risk. White boxers are prone to deafness, re the eye sight they can suffer from different coloured haws( one black one white is common in flashy boxers) and ectropin ( lid turning out wards) and entropin (eyelid in wards requires surgery) are commonly associated with boxers as well as other breeds. Plus heart problems, hip dyplasia, bloat etc there is problems associated with a lot of breds due to over breeding the life expectancy of a lot of PB dogs is reduced. Boxers on average live 8-12years, (but this depends on the dog ) my aunt has a boxer aged 14 at the moment and his as playful as ever!! Yet ive spoken to people who have lost boxers as young as four due to illness.

Lauragoesmad

I was told that every two in eight boxer pups is white and that most breeders have the vets put them to sleep because they don't want people to know that their dog had a white pup.

Santa Claus

Just to say thanks to Shinners.
I mentioned earlier that my dad used to breed but the thread seemed to be turning into a "anyone who sells puppys are evil" witch-hunt, so it's nice to see a sensible eloquent breeder like yourself who takes such care of their dogs and pups show that not everyone who sells pups is a "puppy farmer".

shinners007

thanks santa claus.

I was told that every two in eight boxer pups is white and that most breeders have the vets put them to sleep because they don't want people to know that their dog had a white pup.

Now well! I havent heard that line before but it just goes to show you cant always believe what someone tells you and i seriously hope it wasnt a so called breeder you heard that from. I had ten and twelve puppies in each of two litters in october and none where white. White boxers shouldnt be bred from as ive said already, however it is a reccessive gene that causes a white boxer, so every two in eight and what ever else you have heard is all myth, basically if your dam's have a white boxer pup it is highly common for them to have more white ones in each litter and if you dont want that dont breed its as simple as that.

Also a boxer shouldnt be put to sleep because it is white, it shouldnt be sold either a good breeder would keep the puppy and nueter/spay the pup to ensure it will never bred from and ensure the hearing is ok etc. The more white a boxer has more susceptible they may be to sunburning and an alleged slightly higher occurance of deafness. So flashy boxers would fall into this category- but no pet should be PTS because of the way he/she looks or because of colouring or markings and any breeder that would do so a thing is just horrible imo.

Lauragoesmad

This website says its 25% of them too but the parents have to both carry the white gene.

http://www.boxerbuddies.org/Boxer%20Info/white_boxers.htm

Our man in Havana

Ok guys whilst I am happy with this thread to continue but if it gets any nastier or if personal attacks happen I will ban folks! Not everyone who breeds animals is EVIL! Get a grip guys Sinners007 is a member & seems to be a good guy not an evil monster out to make money from breeding thousands of pups a year!

Play nice children I will be watching! I want this forum to be a nice happy place for pet lovers to come & talk about issues - not a board full of witch hunters!

Puppy farms are evil - but I doubt anyone will come on here & say they own a puppy farm & will try to convince us that they are nice & treated well!

Dog owners who breed responsibly & have their dogs vet checked & the pups are given shots & are fed well are not evil they are responsible & probably are very nice too.

try to remember that the people behind these posts are real people - we have feelings & they can be hurt easily. So enjoy the debate but stop with the personal attacks.

peasant

At the end of the day (like:D) ...


..the responsibility lies with the consumer (terrible word in relation to dogs)

As long as people "consume" dogs, driven by the "I want THIS and I want it NOW" -mentality, with little or no knowlege (or interest) where the dog comes from or how healthy it is likely to be, with no knowledge (and again no interest) of what it takes to breed the best and healthiest dog possible and that maybe a bit of research and waiting is involved ...

...as long as people buy dogs in a spur of the moment kind of way ...


...puppy farmers and unethical breeders will have enough business to keep going.

Lauragoesmad

I wouldn't be able to give any of the dogs away if I let my dog have a litter. I'd end up like a crazy cat lady but with dogs. (and cats:p)

GA361

shinners007 wrote: »

I totally disagree with you. It is those who randomly seek male studs or vice versa that are careless. Owning my male and showing him and his tempermnt and all his health certs to new puppy owners is a very important aspect of dog breeding. You wouldnt try sell puppies without showing the mum would you? So why wouldnt show your pet (the stud) and the sire of the pups to people aswell?? I just dont get your reasoning behind suggesting that oqning the parents of the puppies from when they them selves where pups and actually owning the stud is CARELESS??? Please explain that???

My response:
Shinners,nobody,not even a trained vet can possibly predict accurately the occurance of an inherited medical condition.Most hereditory conditions show up in males and females at the age of two.If you buy your stud dog as a pup,there isn't a hope in hell that you could predict his helth,temperment etc.
BUT,when you hire a stud dog however,you are certain that he is of excellent standard-healthwise and aesthetics

I have more than 16 bloodlines on each of mine to prove their lines are not crossed or linked to each other, not a mandatory 6 needed by the kennel clubs to breed (which is line breeding). And i totally agree with peasant some where down the line they will cross .And may i add these so called top dogs may not even be healthy! People now import dogs from the UK and scotland to try reduce the risk of line breeding occuring.

My response:
The reason why only up to sixth generation bloodlines are required is because the chances of inbreeding to occur between a great great great grandparent and a dog are literally nil,due to the fact that you CANNOT breed a dog over the age of twelve.Even if such an occurance were to come to fruition,there would be practically no effects on the pups due to the fact that the parents are such distant relatives.


I think your statement speaks for itself you clearly need to go do some research and educate yourself on dog breeding, sorry but enough is enough your statements are getting quite ridicilious now. :rolleyes: You think you only need to look at the dams papers to ensure that line breeding doesnt occour?? oh please.....

My response:
Again,you only need to look at the papers,as kennel clubs rules,if taken seriously by the responsible breeder prohibit the breeding of dogs over the age of twelve.Therefore it would be damn-near impossible for inbreeding to occur in the hands of the responsible breeder.

POINT MADE

GA361

shinners007 wrote: »

Well any dog can get health problems at some stage in their life, basically inbreeding/ where line breeding has occured leads to a higher risk of problems as their is genetic crosses. Hence if you have bloodlines that do not cross your reducing the risk.

That is a common misconception,it depends on the fact that whether or not such a disease exists in a certain gene-poll,if it does not exist inbreeding can be safer.However, I dont believe in inbreeding.

shinners007

Get a grip guys Sinners007 is a member & seems to be a good guy not an evil monster out to make money from breeding thousands of pups a year!

Thank you bond007- may i add im female!! LOL.

Shinners,nobody,not even a trained vet can possibly predict accurately the occurance of an inherited medical condition.Most hereditory conditions show up in males and females at the age of two.If you buy your stud dog as a pup,there isn't a hope in hell that you could predict his helth,temperment etc.
BUT,when you hire a stud dog however,you are certain that he is of excellent standard-healthwise and aesthetics

You may not be able to predict his health however if you buy a male whose parents have been tested and who you then test prior to breeding then in fact you are reducing the risks and in turn breeding from a healthy male whose personality and temperment you are 100% of as you have had since a pup, not a strange hired out stud dog. Alos there are inherited conditions associated with specific breeds due to line breeding and that is a fact as is adequate testing to reduce the risks. You have also not answered how a breeder who owns the stud is careless?? Also tell me how you are certain that the stud is of excellent standard- obviously if his been offered as a stud then a breeder more than likely owns him and is offfering him for stud to either gain profits or because he is a proven stud ? Your not suggesting that one should just go and pay for any random male as a stud?

The reason why only up to sixth generation bloodlines are required is because the chances of inbreeding to occur between a great great great grandparent and a dog are literally nil,due to the fact that you CANNOT breed a dog over the age of twelve.Even if such an occurance were to come to fruition,there would be practically no effects on the pups due to the fact that the parents are such distant relatives

Please show me proof that states "he chances of inbreeding to occur between a great great great grandparent and a dog are literally nil" - please refer to peasants reponse inrelation to line breeding earlier. Do some research on genetics and line breeding please.

Again,you only need to look at the papers,as kennel clubs rules,if taken seriously by the responsible breeder prohibit the breeding of dogs over the age of twelve.Therefore it would be damn-near impossible for inbreeding to occur in the hands of the responsible breeder.

POINT MADE

The only point i can see that you made was reference to a kennel club's age limit and rules that badly need to be reviewed. Not breeding from a dog over twelve has nothing to do with the genetics involved with inbreeding- responsible breeders wouldnt assume that a dog of twelve could have no possible genetic link to for eg. a female aged 3 (nor in my opinion would a reputable breeder breed or offer a twelve year old male for stud) . That is why bloodlines are so important and ensuring that they are not linked or crossed.

I believe you wrote this "That is a common misconception,it depends on the fact that whether or not such a disease exists in a certain gene-poll,if it does not exist inbreeding can be safer.However, I dont believe in inbreeding" - ya right, i feel that nothing i say will make a difference to you, and we are each entilted to our own opinions even if they differ so will leave it at that.
and hence thats MY POINT MADE.

GA361

shinners007 wrote: »

You may not be able to predict his health however if you buy a male whose parents have been tested and who you then test prior to breeding then in fact you are reducing the risks and in turn breeding from a healthy male whose personality and temperment you are 100% of as you have had since a pup, not a strange hired out stud dog. Alos there are inherited conditions associated with specific breeds due to line breeding and that is a fact as is adequate testing to reduce the risks. You have also not answered how a breeder who owns the stud is careless?? Also tell me how you are certain that the stud is of excellent standard- obviously if his been offered as a stud then a breeder more than likely owns him and is offfering him for stud to either gain profits or because he is a proven stud ? Your not suggesting that one should just go and pay for any random male as a stud?

''Tell me how you are certain that the stud dog is of excellent standard''.
As you said''because he is a proven stud dog''

shinners007 wrote: »

Please show me proof that states "he chances of inbreeding to occur between a great great great grandparent and a dog are literally nil" - please refer to peasants reponse inrelation to line breeding earlier. Do some research on genetics and line breeding please.

It is up to you to do some research and prove the occurance of such an incident.It is not up to me to prove that this didnt happen!

shinners007 wrote: »

The only point i can see that you made was reference to a kennel club's age limit and rules that badly need to be reviewed. Not breeding from a dog over twelve has nothing to do with the genetics involved with inbreeding- responsible breeders wouldnt assume that a dog of twelve could have no possible genetic link to for eg. a female aged 3 (nor in my opinion would a reputable breeder breed or offer a twelve year old male for stud) . That is why bloodlines are so important and ensuring that they are not linked or crossed.

It is simple.If that dog is somehow related to the bitch,he would be a very distant relation and this would have no effect on the pups.

You have failed to make a point.

shinners007

again you neglect to back up your comments with facts and you avoid answering the questions.

''Tell me how you are certain that the stud dog is of excellent standard''.
As you said''because he is a proven stud dog''

- just because a male dog is fertile enough to produce sperm that does not prove he is of an excellent standard - but then again i did expect you to neglect the health status of the male etc.

It is simple.If that dog is somehow related to the bitch,he would be a very distant relation and this would have no effect on the pups.

You have failed to make a point.

Where again is your proof of this or facts - your missing the point that because breeders where only breeding from show dogs and neglecting to breed other dogs not put into shows and who may have been perfectly healthy, it means that the specific Pb and lines where sought after and in order to keep certain looks, apperances, standards etc then line breeding/inbreeding was inevitable. Hence it was very possible to effect the pups espically if a dog from a specific line who had a genetic disease was breed with a another female from that same genetic pool, and this cycle continued to achieve a certain bred standard - how on earth do you think that so many pure breeds dogs have breed associated genetic illness? It didnt just automatically occur. But the main issue that was neglected and still is by some was the actual health of the dogs been bred from - a dog might look fab and gorgeous but if his unhealthy and allowed to breed then will the pups be healthy and if so for how long?

I think ive made plenty of points rather than just one with no substance!

It is up to you to do some research and prove the occurance of such an incident.It is not up to me to prove that this didnt happen!

Again you cannot give facts to prove what you have stated - im educated enough to know what i do know and im honest enough to admit if ever im wrong about something- ive learned this makes me a better person and a more knowledge animal lover and dog breeder- however to me you seem like a troll that is making statements out of the blue and spoiling what was a very interesting thread.

shinners007

It is simple.If that dog is somehow related to the bitch,he would be a very distant relation and this would have no effect on the pups.

You have failed to make a point.

yes keep typing statements like that it shows how much you know about breeding - just fascinating.....:rolleyes:

Our man in Havana

Final warning folks. If I get one more reported post about this thread, it will be locked and people will be banned.

Play nice folks.

shinners007

apologies for going off topic op .:(

GA361

shinners007 wrote: »

again you neglect to back up your comments with facts and you avoid answering the questions.

- just because a male dog is fertile enough to produce sperm that does not prove he is of an excellent standard - but then again i did expect you to neglect the health status of the male etc.

For any reputable breeder it is a given to ensure the sound health status of a stud.

shinners007 wrote: »

Where again is your proof of this or facts - your missing the point that because breeders where only breeding from show dogs and neglecting to breed other dogs not put into shows and who may have been perfectly healthy, it means that the specific Pb and lines where sought after and in order to keep certain looks, apperances, standards etc then line breeding/inbreeding was inevitable. Hence it was very possible to effect the pups espically if a dog from a specific line who had a genetic disease was breed with a another female from that same genetic pool, and this cycle continued to achieve a certain bred standard - how on earth do you think that so many pure breeds dogs have breed associated genetic illness? It didnt just automatically occur. But the main issue that was neglected and still is by some was the actual health of the dogs been bred from - a dog might look fab and gorgeous but if his unhealthy and allowed to breed then will the pups be healthy and if so for how long?

I think ive made plenty of points rather than just one with no substance!

I have decided to bombard you with evidence which strongly backs my belief that both linebreeding and inbreeding can be beneficial-

''With a female who doesn't have too many faults,you might want to establish a strain.This is a line that breeds true and is consistently stamped with the traits and characteristics you find desirable and can only be accomplished through linebreeding and/or inbreeding.''

''Uniformed people assume that outcrossing is the safest method of breeding.This is not true.The method is not what makes a pairing good or bad,but rather the individuals involved.For instance,the most extreme examples of outcrossing are what dogs produce on their own:mixed breeds.''

''Outcrossing prospers when you choose partners that have been linebred themselves''

''Inbreeding does not create defects''

-written by Chris Walkowitcz and Bonnie Wilcox,D.M.V.

sinners007 wrote: »

Again you cannot give facts to prove what you have stated - im educated enough to know what i do know and im honest enough to admit if ever im wrong about something- ive learned this makes me a better person and a more knowledge animal lover and dog breeder- however to me you seem like a troll that is making statements out of the blue and spoiling what was a very interesting thread.

Enough with the personnal insults.Facts and sources have been put forward.

GA361

Bond 007,thanks for that comment.I agree 100 percent.This thread should be kept clean.It is about dogs,not personnal attacks.I've kept my comments clean and will continue to do so.

Annika30

GA361 wrote: »

For any reputable breeder it is a given to ensure the sound health status of a stud.




I have decided to bombard you with evidence which strongly backs my belief that both linebreeding and inbreeding can be beneficial-

''With a female who doesn't have too many faults,you might want to establish a strain.This is a line that breeds true and is consistently stamped with the traits and characteristics you find desirable and can only be accomplished through linebreeding and/or inbreeding.''

''Uniformed people assume that outcrossing is the safest method of breeding.This is not true.The method is not what makes a pairing good or bad,but rather the individuals involved.For instance,the most extreme examples of outcrossing are what dogs produce on their own:mixed breeds.''

''Outcrossing prospers when you choose partners that have been linebred themselves''

''Inbreeding does not create defects''

-written by Chris Walkowitcz and Bonnie Wilcox,D.M.V.



Enough with the personnal insults.Facts and sources have been put forward.

I recommend that you read 'Dogs' by Raymond and Lorna Coppinger. I honestly can't believe that you are promoting inbreeding!

GA361

Annika30 wrote: »

I recommend that you read 'Dogs' by Raymond and Lorna Coppinger. I honestly can't believe that you are promoting inbreeding!

I am not promoting inbreeding,I am promoting selective LINEBREEDING and I think only experienced breeders should practice in selective INBREEDING.

GA361

I think that there is a bit of a misunderstanding here.
Linebreeding,crossbreeding and inbreeding are three completely different methods of breeding.

shinners007

I never personally attacked you i asked you for facts instead of making comments out of the blue so sorry i did not mean to offend you. I simply totally disagree with everything that you have put forward in this debate. And from reading some of your threads in particular the one with your seeking info on breeding gordon setters and "what price someone would pay for one" i seriously hope that you are not a breeder as if you are it is seriously a sad situation in particular as you are promoting inbreeding.

I could go and simply "google" it like you have done and then i could choose to pick out articles that show the disadvantages to inbreeding/line breeding and there are loads of articles that show the pros and cons of line breeding/ in breeding eg
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/inbreeding.htm
http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/Inbreeding.html etc....

''With a female who doesn't have too many faults,you might want to establish a strain.This is a line that breeds true and is consistently stamped with the traits and characteristics you find desirable and can only be accomplished through linebreeding and/or inbreeding.''

The main problem that stands out for me with that sentence is "a female who doesnt have too many faults"?????????

''Inbreeding does not create defects''

I disagree once again.

"Inbreeding reduces fertility, vigour or overall health and mental stability. Inbred animals are more prone to diseases such as infections and cancer, and more likely to be "highly strung".


"Unfortunately this search for perfection and uniformity comes at a cost. Undesirable genes also become increasingly likely to be homozygous and so affect the health of the animal. Most of these genes have minor effects which gradually accumulate. There are many genes involved in traits like fertility, immune competence and mental stability and accumulation of homozygous recessive "bad" genes gradually diminishes the function of these systems" - (article http://www.family-pets.com/genetics.html)

I have decided to bombard you with evidence which strongly backs my belief that both linebreeding and inbreeding can be beneficial

yet then you say your not promoting inbreeding.

GA361

shinners007 wrote: »

I never personally attacked you i asked you for facts instead of making comments out of the blue so sorry i did not mean to offend you. I simply totally disagree with everything that you have put forward in this debate. And from reading some of your threads in particular the one with your seeking info on breeding gordon setters and "what price someone would pay for one" i seriously hope that you are not a breeder as if you are it is seriously a sad situation in particular as you are promoting inbreeding.

You call it ''sad'' to enquire what is a reasonable price for a relatively rare dog.I cannot respect your input as some breeders are charging up to $2500 in the U.S which is criminal.I want to charge a reasonable price but cover my costs,would you prefer it if a breeder charged people this price or would you prefer it if a breeder did a little market research to enquire what people can afford to pay.

shinners007 wrote: »

I could go and simply "google" it like you have done and then i could choose to pick out articles that show the disadvantages to inbreeding/line breeding and there are loads of articles that show the pros and cons of line breeding/ in breeding eg
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/inbreeding.htm
http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/Inbreeding.html etc....

I didn't google this info,I reffered to written text rather than trust information that just anyone has written.We are dealing with animals' lives here,one has to be resposible!

shinners007 wrote: »

The main problem that stands out for me with that sentence is "a female who doesnt have too many faults"?????????



I disagree once again.

"Inbreeding reduces fertility, vigour or overall health and mental stability. Inbred animals are more prone to diseases such as infections and cancer, and more likely to be "highly strung".


"Unfortunately this search for perfection and uniformity comes at a cost. Undesirable genes also become increasingly likely to be homozygous and so affect the health of the animal. Most of these genes have minor effects which gradually accumulate. There are many genes involved in traits like fertility, immune competence and mental stability and accumulation of homozygous recessive "bad" genes gradually diminishes the function of these systems" - (article http://www.family-pets.com/genetics.html)

yet then you say your not promoting inbreeding.

Again I am not promting INBREEDING,I am promoting selective linebreeding and selective inbreeding.I referred to the written text of two renowned vets,rather than trusting the word of some random blogger.

shinners007

"I cannot respect your input" nor can i yours as your a breeder who believes inbreding and line breeding is benefical- i only hope
people buying your pups are aware of this.


any way - Look we have both made our points.

Ive nothing against you personally and we have totally gone off the topic "puppy farming" and it isnt very fair on annika who created the thread- so lets just let it be as are opinions are too different.

regards
shinners.

GA361

I guess we can agree to disagree.

It doesn't seem like I am going to convince you that the old steriotype that all inbreeding is damaging simply is false-how do you think specific breeds emerged in the first place?.I have provided sufficient evidence to back my point.

We just have different opinions,but I give to you my utmost respect and I hope you will return that respect to me.

shinners007

We just have different opinions,but I give to you my utmost respect and I hope you will return that respect to me.

Of course i Totally agree with you (finally :D;)) and i greatly appreciate and respect that you have your own opinion as do i and other members.

take care
shinners.

peasant

GA361 wrote: »

I think that there is a bit of a misunderstanding here.
Linebreeding,crossbreeding and inbreeding are three completely different methods of breeding.

I think we all know what crossbreeding is, it's the other two that need defining.

Show breeding circles define inbreeding as breeding animals that are related in the first or second degree and rightfully frown upon it (some do it anyway)

But what comes under the heading of "line breeding" (and what basically keeps the whole show circus on the road) is the attempt of breeding certain bloodlines (those of show winners) over others (allegedly to improve the breed).
In laymans terms line breeding is nothing else but inbreeding, just on a larger scale. You don't breed siblings or parents and children with each other, but instead you take cousins, grandparents, great uncles, "in laws" and throw all those into the mix.

As you can get one to two "generations" of dogs every year, this can result in cases like our PB Beardie, where her grandfather on her mothers side is also her great-grandfather on her fathers side. Which effectively makes her paternal grandmother her aunt.

It gets even scarier when you go a few more generations back, the same names keep popping up on either side of the tree. *

Duelling banjos anyone? :D

That's what breeders call "line breeding" ...to you and me its plain and simple inbreeding ...to our poor dog it means the she is not quite right in the head :rolleyes:

*you can check it here:
http://www.bcpedigree.se/bcpedigree.htm
Do a search for "calston who's that lady" (Sophie to you and me) and you'll come up with this:

http://www.bcpedigree.se/Irena/beardis.nsf/l6vy/37036

check fort he names "Osmart Storm at Midnight" (that's the grandfather , he appears twice) and Osmart Bonnie Blue Braid (appears 8 times on either side of the family tree)