Puppy farming.

Annika30

What would you consider being puppy farming? When you breed just to make money, when you breed using the same bitch on a yearly basis, etc?

Annika

Santa Claus

When you hear about "puppy farms" in the media, they're usually referring to commercial operations where several bitches are producing pups at the same time, often in far from ideal situations.

Glowing

Surely, anyone who breeds pups, then sells them is a 'Puppy farmer'

Annika30

Personally I would consider anyone who breeds solely to make money and not to better the breed a puppy farmer...

Santa Claus

Annika30 wrote: »

Personally I would consider anyone who breeds solely to make money and not to better the breed a puppy farmer...

Define "bettering the breed" please

Annika30

Well that you should only breed with healthy dogs with a good temperament.:D

peasant

Annika30 wrote: »

Well that you should only breed with healthy dogs with a good temperament.:D

haha ...that would immediatedly exclude half the show winning dogs from breeding

Annika30

Absolutely!

Santa Claus

OK so when my dad used to breed our dog every 2 years with another good show dog, he would normally keep 1 or 2 pups and sell the rest of the litter.

Does that make him a puppy farmer or not then ? (I certainly wouldn't have thought so but you seems to be saying that making any money from breeding is farming)

Annika30

I don't know your dad but as I said as long as you are breeding with healthy dogs that have a good temperament and that you know that you can find them good homes I wouldn't call that puppy farming and your dad seem to fit in to that description.:D

kerrysgold

I personally considered my old riding stables to be a puppy farm because the bitches had no proper kennels (just straw in the horses barn) no proper whelping facilities, and I strongly suspect inbreeding since the males and females weren't kept seperate. ad to that the fact that the dogs were in miserable condition (not healthy looking, quite skinny and puny looking probably due to being puppy machines) so I suppose anyone that has more than say, two bitches and a dog, and doesn't have proper facilities and breeds a litter every year from the same dog. Personally, I'd only like to see rarer breeds being bred now, preferably with the dog's living in the house rather than out in a kennel and the stud dog only being bothered with when it's covering time or whatever. We have more than enough cavaliers (the breed that was at my stables) staffies, labs, collies, rotties, JRT's etc. to last for the next 10 years I'd say!
I also think that there should be a limit on how many greyhounds can be bred each year for the racing industry.

peasant

There would be a rapid end to the "production" of surplus dogs if it became illegal to sell pups.

Only dogs that are at least 9 months old, fully socialised and vetenary checked, housetrained and spayed/neutered (unless sold to a licensed breeder) could be sold and bought.

Impulse buying would stop and so would impulse breeding.

(This would of course necessitate a law first that would make it illegal and punishable to kill a perfectly healthy dog)

Santa Claus

peasant wrote: »

There would be a rapid end to the "production" of surplus dogs if it became illegal to sell pups.

It's kind of hard to control how many pups are produced so unless you want a house full of dogs then surplus pups are inevitable !

kerrysgold

It's not hard at all to control how many pups are produced, a simple spay or neuter op will see to that!

peasant

Santa Claus wrote: »

It's kind of hard to control how many pups are produced so unless you want a house full of dogs then surplus pups are inevitable !

Unless you can handle a house full of dogs for a few months (until they're sold), you simply don't breed.

Annika30

peasant wrote: »

There would be a rapid end to the "production" of surplus dogs if it became illegal to sell pups.

Only dogs that are at least 9 months old, fully socialised and vetenary checked, housetrained and spayed/neutered (unless sold to a licensed breeder) could be sold and bought.

Impulse buying would stop and so would impulse breeding.

(This would of course necessitate a law first that would make it illegal and punishable to kill a perfectly healthy dog)

Well that's an idea!:D

shinners007

I dont agree that one who breeds and sells their pups are "puppy farmers", i breed boxers i have three females and one male, my females have one litter yearly i skip the second time they come into heat as they wouldnt be fully back to their proper weight and i just wouldnt like them to have more than one litter a year, i have insulated and heated pupping kennels for whelping and they each have there own insulated kennel as well as dog runs for feeding time, fortunately we have plenty of countryside land and they run around freely (we'r miles in from the main road) and come in and out of the house as they please . My boxers may have come from "show lines" however i dont breed them for this reason as im sure every one is aware their been over breed for those to make a quick buck and there is some strange looking boxers being sold with there "champion bloodlines and show potential".
I had my adults all tested before breeding and i think this should become mandatory, im not breeding for the money aspect of it as once feeding costs, vaccines, vet checks, registration, microchipping, electricty, milk etc are all
added then the profit isnt very much.
My buyers also agree to spay/neuter there pets if there not using them in shows. If anything ever went wrong like healthwise with the pups or the owners needed new home for some reason the boxer must be returned to me and there fine with that. My boxers are part of my family and will always be and they will continue to get the best of love and care. So how am i a puppy farmer??

On the other hand i see people selling pups and cross breeds as designer dogs and they have the dam and pups in a shed or barn with a bit of hay/straw for heat, or people breeding loads of different breeds to make money:mad::mad: now thats what i call puppy farmers. Not evryone can be branded with the one brush.

I may breed but i have also rescued and im well ware of the stats on pounds and shelters in ireland. The law needs to be changed and the kennel clubs badly need a kick in the behind as well

Our man in Havana

I think puppy farming is a lot different to back yard breeders.

Puppy farms to me bring up horrid images of dogs living in tiny cages being forced to have litter after litter & often living in their own faeces etc.

Back yard breeders - a family that have a dog or 2 that they breed from to make some money.

Both are far from ideal - I am fine with people breeding healthy bitches once or twice - I had planned to breed my westie but she has bad ears so was not a good bitch to breed from so she as spayed etc. If you have a healthy dog with a great temperament & you treat it correctly - proper nutrition etc & you can find good homes for the pups then I am happy with that - but I still urge people to spay & neuter etc.

Annika30

shinners007, May I ask why you breed? Did you take into consideration the massive problem of over breeding we have here in Ireland before you decided to breed, or do you not consider yourself;f a part of the problem? I personally think it sounds nuts to breed with 3 different bitches on a yearly basis, there isn't a shortage of boxers here! Also, you are allowed to show a dog that has been neutered so that's not an excuse not to do it.:D

GA361

Annika30 wrote: »

Well that you should only breed with healthy dogs with a good temperament.:D

Saying that people should only breed dogs with 'good' temperments is a bad idea as specific breed-standard temperments are unique to every breed.In other words,some dogs are meant to be protective,others are meant to be friendly and others should have a suspicious nature etc.
I think that the responsible breeder will hire the services of a prime stud rather than cheap out a buy and breed a male of poor quality,Shinners-007.

GA361

peasant wrote: »

There would be a rapid end to the "production" of surplus dogs if it became illegal to sell pups.

Only dogs that are at least 9 months old, fully socialised and vetenary checked, housetrained and spayed/neutered (unless sold to a licensed breeder) could be sold and bought.

Impulse buying would stop and so would impulse breeding.

(This would of course necessitate a law first that would make it illegal and punishable to kill a perfectly healthy dog)

This is well meaning,and it would get rid of the puppy farmers,but many breeds of dogs would become extinct.Also proffessional breeding would come to an end.

shinners007

I think that the responsible breeder will hire the services of a prime stud rather than cheap out a buy and breed a male of poor quality,Shinners-007.

I certainly hope your not implying my stud is of poor quality? He may not be the best "looking" stud to you but he is to me, but most importantly he has been heart lined tested, hip scored, hearing and eye tested is perfectly 100% healthy (same applies to my females all tested & healthy) and believe me you dont get that with many other breeders. I have had him from a puppy and know him inside out as well as his temperment socialbility skills etc which you need to know as a breeder. I totally disagree with that comment you made, too many people with a female boxer or other dam just go out and "pay" for a great looking "stud" with champion lines and shows won and what not. Think all is well and have a litter not having a clue what there doing, the health risks etc and giving the few reputable breeders left a bad name. Your suggestion adds to the overbreeding and inbreeding problem and also increases the health risks involved.

Saying that people should only breed dogs with 'good' temperments is a bad idea as specific breed-standard temperments are unique to every breed

Personally breeding from healthy parents and producing healthy pups is the most important thing for me as well as having good temperments which will depend on the owners. Specific breed standards that were altered by humans? Who nowadays wants a certain looking dog if it has loads of problems and ends up costing them lots of money etc on vets bills. People are becoming more aware of the problems associated with pure bred dogs want healthy pups, not in bred, all tested, health guaranteed and vet checked.

Also, you are allowed to show a dog that has been neutered so that's not an excuse not to do it.

I never said that you couldnt :rolleyes:, obviously i was highlighting that people who win shows go and breed there "champion dogs".

shinners007, May I ask why you breed? Did you take into consideration the massive problem of over breeding we have here in Ireland before you decided to breed, or do you not consider yourself;f a part of the problem? I personally think it sounds nuts to breed with 3 different bitches on a yearly basis, there isn't a shortage of boxers here!

Quite simply i love boxers. I also breed my boxers because i've spent the time and money researching and testing my boxers to improve the health of breed that i love so much in Ireland. Im sick and tired of seeing so called black boxers, cross bred boxers been sold as PB and what not. I met too many people telling me how there boxer had heart problems, hip problems , skin allergies etc. Yes there is a problem with over breeding however as i said im trying to improve the health of the breed and i can also take back pups if ever needed. I wouldnt be breeding unless i was aware of the risks ie if they dont sell can i afffired the time space costs etc in keeping them and yes i can. However i never need to as they are all booked prior to arriving and the new homes are all checked too. The majority of my pups have been spayed/neutured and none to date have been bred from. I know this as ive kept in touch with every owner. So no i dont consider myself part of the problem. Unreputable breeders and back yard breeders cos more of a problem as do people who let there unspayed and unneutured dogs roam the streets to do what they like.

peasant

GA361 wrote: »

I think that the responsible breeder will hire the services of a prime stud ....

Which is exactly the reason why there is so much inbreeding !

In some breeds all the current stock stems from two or three show-winning "fathers", whose offspring is constantly inter-bred whith each other.

Perfectly healthy males are excluded from breeding, because they didn't win enough shows (or were never entered)

Three or four generations of breeding females could have the same "father", only to be bred with his "sons" (effectively their step-brothers) again.

This fixation on breeding off "prime show winners" has led to degenerating health in almost the entirety of the dog population.

The inbred genetic cripples are paired with other dogs by backyard breeders to "create" cute mixes and now even mongrels don't come with a health guarantee anymore.

Killiwee

I bred Cairn terriers for about five years , I had 4 bitches and a stud dog. We had 1-2 litters a year. At the time , this is a few years back , Cairn terriers were a scarce enough breed. We had to search for our dogs. I had them growing up and they are a fabolous breed.I personally dont think I was a puppy farmer , my dogs were very well cared for and as previously posted its not profitable by the time you ve paid the bills. We mostly had a waiting list for our pups and we knew where they were going. Thats not puppy farming.We even looked after the pups a few times when the owners went on holidays and they had grown into great dogs.
I have to say I have a problem with the cross breeding people are doing now eg.puggles,****z-Chi,.This will cause problems down the line.Also the prices these people are charging for the "designer dogs" are criminal and this more like puppy farmin to me.

Killiwee

I bred Cairn terriers for about five years , I had 4 bitches and a stud dog. We had 1-2 litters a year. At the time , this is a few years back , Cairn terriers were a scarce enough breed. We had to search for our dogs. I had them growing up and they are a fabolous breed.I personally dont think I was a puppy farmer , my dogs were very well cared for and as previously posted its not profitable by the time you ve paid the bills. We mostly had a waiting list for our pups and we knew where they were going. Thats not puppy farming.We even looked after the pups a few times when the owners went on holidays and they had grown into great dogs.
I have to say I have a problem with the cross breeding people are doing now eg.puggles,****z-Chi,.This will cause problems down the line.Also the prices these people are charging for the "designer dogs" are criminal and this more like puppy farmin to me.

kerrysgold

Argh, the designer dog thing really get's to me, and what's worse is you don't seem to be able to get it through the purchasers head that these dog's aren't a real breed! that they are basically paying hundreds of euro/pounds/dollars for a mongrel that they could have adopted from a shelter. teacups are another thing! how on earth do you get a teacup chihuahua/yorkie? they are microscopic to start with!

Glowing

kerrysgold wrote: »

Argh, the designer dog thing really get's to me, and what's worse is you don't seem to be able to get it through the purchasers head that these dog's aren't a real breed! that they are basically paying hundreds of euro/pounds/dollars for a mongrel that they could have adopted from a shelter. teacups are another thing! how on earth do you get a teacup chihuahua/yorkie? they are microscopic to start with!

The people that buy these 'designer dogs' are almost worse than the breeders! Tsk!!!! :rolleyes:

shinners007

with this designer dog trend at the moment the buyers are as bad as the breeder's! As for toy yorkies there basically the runts in the litters unless the sire and dam are actually small yorkies. Many people use the term "toy" or "teacup" or "mini" to identify the size. But technically, a tiny yorkie is just that, tiny. A small yorkie is referred to as "small". Tiny yorkies typically are 3 lbs or under. Small yorkies are 4 and 5 lbs. 6 lb or over is a normal size yorkie.

I have a 7month old tiny yorkie last weighed her she was 2lbs, that i hand heared from 3weeks of age as she had a set back and the lady who was breeding said if she survived i could have her (she was doubtful) but all the hard work paid off and she survived. I had Lilo spayed last month and she wasnt herself for over a week but she's back to herself now.

I leave her bowl topped up but she doesnt eat large amounts of food at all. She's more of a picker!!:D:D

Annika30

GA361 wrote: »

Saying that people should only breed dogs with 'good' temperments is a bad idea as specific breed-standard temperments are unique to every breed.In other words,some dogs are meant to be protective,others are meant to be friendly and others should have a suspicious nature etc.
I think that the responsible breeder will hire the services of a prime stud rather than cheap out a buy and breed a male of poor quality,Shinners-007.

I never said that 'one model fits all' of course you need to breed with dogs with good temperament but the temperament and the traits of the specific breed will of course vary. Could you give me some examples of breeds that are breed for their 'suspicious nature'?

GA361

peasant wrote: »

Which is exactly the reason why there is so much inbreeding !

In some breeds all the current stock stems from two or three show-winning "fathers", whose offspring is constantly inter-bred whith each other.

Perfectly healthy males are excluded from breeding, because they didn't win enough shows (or were never entered)

Three or four generations of breeding females could have the same "father", only to be bred with his "sons" (effectively their step-brothers) again.

This fixation on breeding off "prime show winners" has led to degenerating health in almost the entirety of the dog population.

The inbred genetic cripples are paired with other dogs by backyard breeders to "create" cute mixes and now even mongrels don't come with a health guarantee anymore.

Inbreeding only occurs with careless breeders.It is these breeders who don't even bother to check their bitch's bloodlines(or just disregard them)which are the problem.
Shinners-007,I'm not saying that you are a careless breeder,but many people who own both the stud and the bitch tend to be careless breeders.

GA361

Could you give me some examples of breeds that are breed for their 'suspicious nature'?[/quote]

No dogs are bred FOR their suspicious nature,but all breeds must display the characteristics that are suited to their breed.
In answer to your question,Dobermans have a protective nature,Labs have a friendly nature and Gordons have a suspicious nature.