Puppy farming.

Annika30

What would you consider being puppy farming? When you breed just to make money, when you breed using the same bitch on a yearly basis, etc?

Annika

Santa Claus

When you hear about "puppy farms" in the media, they're usually referring to commercial operations where several bitches are producing pups at the same time, often in far from ideal situations.

Glowing

Surely, anyone who breeds pups, then sells them is a 'Puppy farmer'

Annika30

Personally I would consider anyone who breeds solely to make money and not to better the breed a puppy farmer...

Santa Claus

Annika30 wrote: »

Personally I would consider anyone who breeds solely to make money and not to better the breed a puppy farmer...

Define "bettering the breed" please

Annika30

Well that you should only breed with healthy dogs with a good temperament.:D

peasant

Annika30 wrote: »

Well that you should only breed with healthy dogs with a good temperament.:D

haha ...that would immediatedly exclude half the show winning dogs from breeding

Annika30

Absolutely!

Santa Claus

OK so when my dad used to breed our dog every 2 years with another good show dog, he would normally keep 1 or 2 pups and sell the rest of the litter.

Does that make him a puppy farmer or not then ? (I certainly wouldn't have thought so but you seems to be saying that making any money from breeding is farming)

Annika30

I don't know your dad but as I said as long as you are breeding with healthy dogs that have a good temperament and that you know that you can find them good homes I wouldn't call that puppy farming and your dad seem to fit in to that description.:D

kerrysgold

I personally considered my old riding stables to be a puppy farm because the bitches had no proper kennels (just straw in the horses barn) no proper whelping facilities, and I strongly suspect inbreeding since the males and females weren't kept seperate. ad to that the fact that the dogs were in miserable condition (not healthy looking, quite skinny and puny looking probably due to being puppy machines) so I suppose anyone that has more than say, two bitches and a dog, and doesn't have proper facilities and breeds a litter every year from the same dog. Personally, I'd only like to see rarer breeds being bred now, preferably with the dog's living in the house rather than out in a kennel and the stud dog only being bothered with when it's covering time or whatever. We have more than enough cavaliers (the breed that was at my stables) staffies, labs, collies, rotties, JRT's etc. to last for the next 10 years I'd say!
I also think that there should be a limit on how many greyhounds can be bred each year for the racing industry.

peasant

There would be a rapid end to the "production" of surplus dogs if it became illegal to sell pups.

Only dogs that are at least 9 months old, fully socialised and vetenary checked, housetrained and spayed/neutered (unless sold to a licensed breeder) could be sold and bought.

Impulse buying would stop and so would impulse breeding.

(This would of course necessitate a law first that would make it illegal and punishable to kill a perfectly healthy dog)

Santa Claus

peasant wrote: »

There would be a rapid end to the "production" of surplus dogs if it became illegal to sell pups.

It's kind of hard to control how many pups are produced so unless you want a house full of dogs then surplus pups are inevitable !

kerrysgold

It's not hard at all to control how many pups are produced, a simple spay or neuter op will see to that!

peasant

Santa Claus wrote: »

It's kind of hard to control how many pups are produced so unless you want a house full of dogs then surplus pups are inevitable !

Unless you can handle a house full of dogs for a few months (until they're sold), you simply don't breed.

Annika30

peasant wrote: »

There would be a rapid end to the "production" of surplus dogs if it became illegal to sell pups.

Only dogs that are at least 9 months old, fully socialised and vetenary checked, housetrained and spayed/neutered (unless sold to a licensed breeder) could be sold and bought.

Impulse buying would stop and so would impulse breeding.

(This would of course necessitate a law first that would make it illegal and punishable to kill a perfectly healthy dog)

Well that's an idea!:D

shinners007

I dont agree that one who breeds and sells their pups are "puppy farmers", i breed boxers i have three females and one male, my females have one litter yearly i skip the second time they come into heat as they wouldnt be fully back to their proper weight and i just wouldnt like them to have more than one litter a year, i have insulated and heated pupping kennels for whelping and they each have there own insulated kennel as well as dog runs for feeding time, fortunately we have plenty of countryside land and they run around freely (we'r miles in from the main road) and come in and out of the house as they please . My boxers may have come from "show lines" however i dont breed them for this reason as im sure every one is aware their been over breed for those to make a quick buck and there is some strange looking boxers being sold with there "champion bloodlines and show potential".
I had my adults all tested before breeding and i think this should become mandatory, im not breeding for the money aspect of it as once feeding costs, vaccines, vet checks, registration, microchipping, electricty, milk etc are all
added then the profit isnt very much.
My buyers also agree to spay/neuter there pets if there not using them in shows. If anything ever went wrong like healthwise with the pups or the owners needed new home for some reason the boxer must be returned to me and there fine with that. My boxers are part of my family and will always be and they will continue to get the best of love and care. So how am i a puppy farmer??

On the other hand i see people selling pups and cross breeds as designer dogs and they have the dam and pups in a shed or barn with a bit of hay/straw for heat, or people breeding loads of different breeds to make money:mad::mad: now thats what i call puppy farmers. Not evryone can be branded with the one brush.

I may breed but i have also rescued and im well ware of the stats on pounds and shelters in ireland. The law needs to be changed and the kennel clubs badly need a kick in the behind as well

Our man in Havana

I think puppy farming is a lot different to back yard breeders.

Puppy farms to me bring up horrid images of dogs living in tiny cages being forced to have litter after litter & often living in their own faeces etc.

Back yard breeders - a family that have a dog or 2 that they breed from to make some money.

Both are far from ideal - I am fine with people breeding healthy bitches once or twice - I had planned to breed my westie but she has bad ears so was not a good bitch to breed from so she as spayed etc. If you have a healthy dog with a great temperament & you treat it correctly - proper nutrition etc & you can find good homes for the pups then I am happy with that - but I still urge people to spay & neuter etc.

Annika30

shinners007, May I ask why you breed? Did you take into consideration the massive problem of over breeding we have here in Ireland before you decided to breed, or do you not consider yourself;f a part of the problem? I personally think it sounds nuts to breed with 3 different bitches on a yearly basis, there isn't a shortage of boxers here! Also, you are allowed to show a dog that has been neutered so that's not an excuse not to do it.:D

GA361

Annika30 wrote: »

Well that you should only breed with healthy dogs with a good temperament.:D

Saying that people should only breed dogs with 'good' temperments is a bad idea as specific breed-standard temperments are unique to every breed.In other words,some dogs are meant to be protective,others are meant to be friendly and others should have a suspicious nature etc.
I think that the responsible breeder will hire the services of a prime stud rather than cheap out a buy and breed a male of poor quality,Shinners-007.

GA361

peasant wrote: »

There would be a rapid end to the "production" of surplus dogs if it became illegal to sell pups.

Only dogs that are at least 9 months old, fully socialised and vetenary checked, housetrained and spayed/neutered (unless sold to a licensed breeder) could be sold and bought.

Impulse buying would stop and so would impulse breeding.

(This would of course necessitate a law first that would make it illegal and punishable to kill a perfectly healthy dog)

This is well meaning,and it would get rid of the puppy farmers,but many breeds of dogs would become extinct.Also proffessional breeding would come to an end.

shinners007

I think that the responsible breeder will hire the services of a prime stud rather than cheap out a buy and breed a male of poor quality,Shinners-007.

I certainly hope your not implying my stud is of poor quality? He may not be the best "looking" stud to you but he is to me, but most importantly he has been heart lined tested, hip scored, hearing and eye tested is perfectly 100% healthy (same applies to my females all tested & healthy) and believe me you dont get that with many other breeders. I have had him from a puppy and know him inside out as well as his temperment socialbility skills etc which you need to know as a breeder. I totally disagree with that comment you made, too many people with a female boxer or other dam just go out and "pay" for a great looking "stud" with champion lines and shows won and what not. Think all is well and have a litter not having a clue what there doing, the health risks etc and giving the few reputable breeders left a bad name. Your suggestion adds to the overbreeding and inbreeding problem and also increases the health risks involved.

Saying that people should only breed dogs with 'good' temperments is a bad idea as specific breed-standard temperments are unique to every breed

Personally breeding from healthy parents and producing healthy pups is the most important thing for me as well as having good temperments which will depend on the owners. Specific breed standards that were altered by humans? Who nowadays wants a certain looking dog if it has loads of problems and ends up costing them lots of money etc on vets bills. People are becoming more aware of the problems associated with pure bred dogs want healthy pups, not in bred, all tested, health guaranteed and vet checked.

Also, you are allowed to show a dog that has been neutered so that's not an excuse not to do it.

I never said that you couldnt :rolleyes:, obviously i was highlighting that people who win shows go and breed there "champion dogs".

shinners007, May I ask why you breed? Did you take into consideration the massive problem of over breeding we have here in Ireland before you decided to breed, or do you not consider yourself;f a part of the problem? I personally think it sounds nuts to breed with 3 different bitches on a yearly basis, there isn't a shortage of boxers here!

Quite simply i love boxers. I also breed my boxers because i've spent the time and money researching and testing my boxers to improve the health of breed that i love so much in Ireland. Im sick and tired of seeing so called black boxers, cross bred boxers been sold as PB and what not. I met too many people telling me how there boxer had heart problems, hip problems , skin allergies etc. Yes there is a problem with over breeding however as i said im trying to improve the health of the breed and i can also take back pups if ever needed. I wouldnt be breeding unless i was aware of the risks ie if they dont sell can i afffired the time space costs etc in keeping them and yes i can. However i never need to as they are all booked prior to arriving and the new homes are all checked too. The majority of my pups have been spayed/neutured and none to date have been bred from. I know this as ive kept in touch with every owner. So no i dont consider myself part of the problem. Unreputable breeders and back yard breeders cos more of a problem as do people who let there unspayed and unneutured dogs roam the streets to do what they like.

peasant

GA361 wrote: »

I think that the responsible breeder will hire the services of a prime stud ....

Which is exactly the reason why there is so much inbreeding !

In some breeds all the current stock stems from two or three show-winning "fathers", whose offspring is constantly inter-bred whith each other.

Perfectly healthy males are excluded from breeding, because they didn't win enough shows (or were never entered)

Three or four generations of breeding females could have the same "father", only to be bred with his "sons" (effectively their step-brothers) again.

This fixation on breeding off "prime show winners" has led to degenerating health in almost the entirety of the dog population.

The inbred genetic cripples are paired with other dogs by backyard breeders to "create" cute mixes and now even mongrels don't come with a health guarantee anymore.

Killiwee

I bred Cairn terriers for about five years , I had 4 bitches and a stud dog. We had 1-2 litters a year. At the time , this is a few years back , Cairn terriers were a scarce enough breed. We had to search for our dogs. I had them growing up and they are a fabolous breed.I personally dont think I was a puppy farmer , my dogs were very well cared for and as previously posted its not profitable by the time you ve paid the bills. We mostly had a waiting list for our pups and we knew where they were going. Thats not puppy farming.We even looked after the pups a few times when the owners went on holidays and they had grown into great dogs.
I have to say I have a problem with the cross breeding people are doing now eg.puggles,****z-Chi,.This will cause problems down the line.Also the prices these people are charging for the "designer dogs" are criminal and this more like puppy farmin to me.

Killiwee

I bred Cairn terriers for about five years , I had 4 bitches and a stud dog. We had 1-2 litters a year. At the time , this is a few years back , Cairn terriers were a scarce enough breed. We had to search for our dogs. I had them growing up and they are a fabolous breed.I personally dont think I was a puppy farmer , my dogs were very well cared for and as previously posted its not profitable by the time you ve paid the bills. We mostly had a waiting list for our pups and we knew where they were going. Thats not puppy farming.We even looked after the pups a few times when the owners went on holidays and they had grown into great dogs.
I have to say I have a problem with the cross breeding people are doing now eg.puggles,****z-Chi,.This will cause problems down the line.Also the prices these people are charging for the "designer dogs" are criminal and this more like puppy farmin to me.

kerrysgold

Argh, the designer dog thing really get's to me, and what's worse is you don't seem to be able to get it through the purchasers head that these dog's aren't a real breed! that they are basically paying hundreds of euro/pounds/dollars for a mongrel that they could have adopted from a shelter. teacups are another thing! how on earth do you get a teacup chihuahua/yorkie? they are microscopic to start with!

Glowing

kerrysgold wrote: »

Argh, the designer dog thing really get's to me, and what's worse is you don't seem to be able to get it through the purchasers head that these dog's aren't a real breed! that they are basically paying hundreds of euro/pounds/dollars for a mongrel that they could have adopted from a shelter. teacups are another thing! how on earth do you get a teacup chihuahua/yorkie? they are microscopic to start with!

The people that buy these 'designer dogs' are almost worse than the breeders! Tsk!!!! :rolleyes:

shinners007

with this designer dog trend at the moment the buyers are as bad as the breeder's! As for toy yorkies there basically the runts in the litters unless the sire and dam are actually small yorkies. Many people use the term "toy" or "teacup" or "mini" to identify the size. But technically, a tiny yorkie is just that, tiny. A small yorkie is referred to as "small". Tiny yorkies typically are 3 lbs or under. Small yorkies are 4 and 5 lbs. 6 lb or over is a normal size yorkie.

I have a 7month old tiny yorkie last weighed her she was 2lbs, that i hand heared from 3weeks of age as she had a set back and the lady who was breeding said if she survived i could have her (she was doubtful) but all the hard work paid off and she survived. I had Lilo spayed last month and she wasnt herself for over a week but she's back to herself now.

I leave her bowl topped up but she doesnt eat large amounts of food at all. She's more of a picker!!:D:D

Annika30

GA361 wrote: »

Saying that people should only breed dogs with 'good' temperments is a bad idea as specific breed-standard temperments are unique to every breed.In other words,some dogs are meant to be protective,others are meant to be friendly and others should have a suspicious nature etc.
I think that the responsible breeder will hire the services of a prime stud rather than cheap out a buy and breed a male of poor quality,Shinners-007.

I never said that 'one model fits all' of course you need to breed with dogs with good temperament but the temperament and the traits of the specific breed will of course vary. Could you give me some examples of breeds that are breed for their 'suspicious nature'?

GA361

peasant wrote: »

Which is exactly the reason why there is so much inbreeding !

In some breeds all the current stock stems from two or three show-winning "fathers", whose offspring is constantly inter-bred whith each other.

Perfectly healthy males are excluded from breeding, because they didn't win enough shows (or were never entered)

Three or four generations of breeding females could have the same "father", only to be bred with his "sons" (effectively their step-brothers) again.

This fixation on breeding off "prime show winners" has led to degenerating health in almost the entirety of the dog population.

The inbred genetic cripples are paired with other dogs by backyard breeders to "create" cute mixes and now even mongrels don't come with a health guarantee anymore.

Inbreeding only occurs with careless breeders.It is these breeders who don't even bother to check their bitch's bloodlines(or just disregard them)which are the problem.
Shinners-007,I'm not saying that you are a careless breeder,but many people who own both the stud and the bitch tend to be careless breeders.

GA361

Could you give me some examples of breeds that are breed for their 'suspicious nature'?[/quote]

No dogs are bred FOR their suspicious nature,but all breeds must display the characteristics that are suited to their breed.
In answer to your question,Dobermans have a protective nature,Labs have a friendly nature and Gordons have a suspicious nature.

peasant

GA361 wrote: »

Inbreeding only occurs with careless breeders.It is these breeders who don't even bother to check their bitch's bloodlines(or just disregard them)which are the problem.

Rubbish ...inbreeding (or line breeding, as they call it) is the result of the fixation on show winners as breeding material. If only a limited number of dogs are allowed to reproduce, inbreeding is the inevitable result.

You can be as "careful" as you like ...sooner or later you'll run out of possible breeding partners whose bloodlines haven't appeared in the bloodline of your dog before ...the base just isn't there.

Add to that that most breeders want offspring of the top dogs only and actively seek out the few winning bloodlines, and inbreeding is unavoidable.

shinners007

Shinners-007,I'm not saying that you are a careless breeder,but many people who own both the stud and the bitch tend to be careless breeders.

I totally disagree with you. It is those who randomly seek male studs or vice versa that are careless. Owning my male and showing him and his tempermnt and all his health certs to new puppy owners is a very important aspect of dog breeding. You wouldnt try sell puppies without showing the mum would you? So why wouldnt show your pet (the stud) and the sire of the pups to people aswell?? I just dont get your reasoning behind suggesting that oqning the parents of the puppies from when they them selves where pups and actually owning the stud is CARELESS??? Please explain that???

I have more than 16 bloodlines on each of mine to prove their lines are not crossed or linked to each other, not a mandatory 6 needed by the kennel clubs to breed (which is line breeding). And i totally agree with peasant some where down the line they will cross .And may i add these so called top dogs may not even be healthy! People now import dogs from the UK and scotland to try reduce the risk of line breeding occuring.

Inbreeding only occurs with careless breeders.It is these breeders who don't even bother to check their bitch's bloodlines(or just disregard them)which are the problem

I think your statement speaks for itself you clearly need to go do some research and educate yourself on dog breeding, sorry but enough is enough your statements are getting quite ridicilious now. :rolleyes: You think you only need to look at the dams papers to ensure that line breeding doesnt occour?? oh please.....

Lauragoesmad

Shinners, have any of your boxers had white pups?
Don't they get health troubles no matter what the blood lines? Like bad sight and hearing and even a much shorter life expectancy than normal?
My Da's mate who breeds boxers told me that. Just wondering if thats true?

shinners007

Hi there, none of my boxers have ever had white boxers (which are prone to deafness and skin allergies).

Don't they get health troubles no matter what the blood lines? Like bad sight and hearing and even a much shorter life expectancy than normal?
My Da's mate who breeds boxers told me that. Just wondering if thats true?

Well any dog can get health problems at some stage in their life, basically inbreeding/ where line breeding has occured leads to a higher risk of problems as their is genetic crosses. Hence if you have bloodlines that do not cross your reducing the risk. The sight and hearing should be tested before breeding again reducing the risk. White boxers are prone to deafness, re the eye sight they can suffer from different coloured haws( one black one white is common in flashy boxers) and ectropin ( lid turning out wards) and entropin (eyelid in wards requires surgery) are commonly associated with boxers as well as other breeds. Plus heart problems, hip dyplasia, bloat etc there is problems associated with a lot of breds due to over breeding the life expectancy of a lot of PB dogs is reduced. Boxers on average live 8-12years, (but this depends on the dog ) my aunt has a boxer aged 14 at the moment and his as playful as ever!! Yet ive spoken to people who have lost boxers as young as four due to illness.

Lauragoesmad

I was told that every two in eight boxer pups is white and that most breeders have the vets put them to sleep because they don't want people to know that their dog had a white pup.

Santa Claus

Just to say thanks to Shinners.
I mentioned earlier that my dad used to breed but the thread seemed to be turning into a "anyone who sells puppys are evil" witch-hunt, so it's nice to see a sensible eloquent breeder like yourself who takes such care of their dogs and pups show that not everyone who sells pups is a "puppy farmer".

shinners007

thanks santa claus.

I was told that every two in eight boxer pups is white and that most breeders have the vets put them to sleep because they don't want people to know that their dog had a white pup.

Now well! I havent heard that line before but it just goes to show you cant always believe what someone tells you and i seriously hope it wasnt a so called breeder you heard that from. I had ten and twelve puppies in each of two litters in october and none where white. White boxers shouldnt be bred from as ive said already, however it is a reccessive gene that causes a white boxer, so every two in eight and what ever else you have heard is all myth, basically if your dam's have a white boxer pup it is highly common for them to have more white ones in each litter and if you dont want that dont breed its as simple as that.

Also a boxer shouldnt be put to sleep because it is white, it shouldnt be sold either a good breeder would keep the puppy and nueter/spay the pup to ensure it will never bred from and ensure the hearing is ok etc. The more white a boxer has more susceptible they may be to sunburning and an alleged slightly higher occurance of deafness. So flashy boxers would fall into this category- but no pet should be PTS because of the way he/she looks or because of colouring or markings and any breeder that would do so a thing is just horrible imo.

Lauragoesmad

This website says its 25% of them too but the parents have to both carry the white gene.

http://www.boxerbuddies.org/Boxer%20Info/white_boxers.htm

Our man in Havana

Ok guys whilst I am happy with this thread to continue but if it gets any nastier or if personal attacks happen I will ban folks! Not everyone who breeds animals is EVIL! Get a grip guys Sinners007 is a member & seems to be a good guy not an evil monster out to make money from breeding thousands of pups a year!

Play nice children I will be watching! I want this forum to be a nice happy place for pet lovers to come & talk about issues - not a board full of witch hunters!

Puppy farms are evil - but I doubt anyone will come on here & say they own a puppy farm & will try to convince us that they are nice & treated well!

Dog owners who breed responsibly & have their dogs vet checked & the pups are given shots & are fed well are not evil they are responsible & probably are very nice too.

try to remember that the people behind these posts are real people - we have feelings & they can be hurt easily. So enjoy the debate but stop with the personal attacks.

peasant

At the end of the day (like:D) ...


..the responsibility lies with the consumer (terrible word in relation to dogs)

As long as people "consume" dogs, driven by the "I want THIS and I want it NOW" -mentality, with little or no knowlege (or interest) where the dog comes from or how healthy it is likely to be, with no knowledge (and again no interest) of what it takes to breed the best and healthiest dog possible and that maybe a bit of research and waiting is involved ...

...as long as people buy dogs in a spur of the moment kind of way ...


...puppy farmers and unethical breeders will have enough business to keep going.

Lauragoesmad

I wouldn't be able to give any of the dogs away if I let my dog have a litter. I'd end up like a crazy cat lady but with dogs. (and cats:p)

GA361

shinners007 wrote: »

I totally disagree with you. It is those who randomly seek male studs or vice versa that are careless. Owning my male and showing him and his tempermnt and all his health certs to new puppy owners is a very important aspect of dog breeding. You wouldnt try sell puppies without showing the mum would you? So why wouldnt show your pet (the stud) and the sire of the pups to people aswell?? I just dont get your reasoning behind suggesting that oqning the parents of the puppies from when they them selves where pups and actually owning the stud is CARELESS??? Please explain that???

My response:
Shinners,nobody,not even a trained vet can possibly predict accurately the occurance of an inherited medical condition.Most hereditory conditions show up in males and females at the age of two.If you buy your stud dog as a pup,there isn't a hope in hell that you could predict his helth,temperment etc.
BUT,when you hire a stud dog however,you are certain that he is of excellent standard-healthwise and aesthetics

I have more than 16 bloodlines on each of mine to prove their lines are not crossed or linked to each other, not a mandatory 6 needed by the kennel clubs to breed (which is line breeding). And i totally agree with peasant some where down the line they will cross .And may i add these so called top dogs may not even be healthy! People now import dogs from the UK and scotland to try reduce the risk of line breeding occuring.

My response:
The reason why only up to sixth generation bloodlines are required is because the chances of inbreeding to occur between a great great great grandparent and a dog are literally nil,due to the fact that you CANNOT breed a dog over the age of twelve.Even if such an occurance were to come to fruition,there would be practically no effects on the pups due to the fact that the parents are such distant relatives.


I think your statement speaks for itself you clearly need to go do some research and educate yourself on dog breeding, sorry but enough is enough your statements are getting quite ridicilious now. :rolleyes: You think you only need to look at the dams papers to ensure that line breeding doesnt occour?? oh please.....

My response:
Again,you only need to look at the papers,as kennel clubs rules,if taken seriously by the responsible breeder prohibit the breeding of dogs over the age of twelve.Therefore it would be damn-near impossible for inbreeding to occur in the hands of the responsible breeder.

POINT MADE

GA361

shinners007 wrote: »

Well any dog can get health problems at some stage in their life, basically inbreeding/ where line breeding has occured leads to a higher risk of problems as their is genetic crosses. Hence if you have bloodlines that do not cross your reducing the risk.

That is a common misconception,it depends on the fact that whether or not such a disease exists in a certain gene-poll,if it does not exist inbreeding can be safer.However, I dont believe in inbreeding.

shinners007

Get a grip guys Sinners007 is a member & seems to be a good guy not an evil monster out to make money from breeding thousands of pups a year!

Thank you bond007- may i add im female!! LOL.

Shinners,nobody,not even a trained vet can possibly predict accurately the occurance of an inherited medical condition.Most hereditory conditions show up in males and females at the age of two.If you buy your stud dog as a pup,there isn't a hope in hell that you could predict his helth,temperment etc.
BUT,when you hire a stud dog however,you are certain that he is of excellent standard-healthwise and aesthetics

You may not be able to predict his health however if you buy a male whose parents have been tested and who you then test prior to breeding then in fact you are reducing the risks and in turn breeding from a healthy male whose personality and temperment you are 100% of as you have had since a pup, not a strange hired out stud dog. Alos there are inherited conditions associated with specific breeds due to line breeding and that is a fact as is adequate testing to reduce the risks. You have also not answered how a breeder who owns the stud is careless?? Also tell me how you are certain that the stud is of excellent standard- obviously if his been offered as a stud then a breeder more than likely owns him and is offfering him for stud to either gain profits or because he is a proven stud ? Your not suggesting that one should just go and pay for any random male as a stud?

The reason why only up to sixth generation bloodlines are required is because the chances of inbreeding to occur between a great great great grandparent and a dog are literally nil,due to the fact that you CANNOT breed a dog over the age of twelve.Even if such an occurance were to come to fruition,there would be practically no effects on the pups due to the fact that the parents are such distant relatives

Please show me proof that states "he chances of inbreeding to occur between a great great great grandparent and a dog are literally nil" - please refer to peasants reponse inrelation to line breeding earlier. Do some research on genetics and line breeding please.

Again,you only need to look at the papers,as kennel clubs rules,if taken seriously by the responsible breeder prohibit the breeding of dogs over the age of twelve.Therefore it would be damn-near impossible for inbreeding to occur in the hands of the responsible breeder.

POINT MADE

The only point i can see that you made was reference to a kennel club's age limit and rules that badly need to be reviewed. Not breeding from a dog over twelve has nothing to do with the genetics involved with inbreeding- responsible breeders wouldnt assume that a dog of twelve could have no possible genetic link to for eg. a female aged 3 (nor in my opinion would a reputable breeder breed or offer a twelve year old male for stud) . That is why bloodlines are so important and ensuring that they are not linked or crossed.

I believe you wrote this "That is a common misconception,it depends on the fact that whether or not such a disease exists in a certain gene-poll,if it does not exist inbreeding can be safer.However, I dont believe in inbreeding" - ya right, i feel that nothing i say will make a difference to you, and we are each entilted to our own opinions even if they differ so will leave it at that.
and hence thats MY POINT MADE.

GA361

shinners007 wrote: »

You may not be able to predict his health however if you buy a male whose parents have been tested and who you then test prior to breeding then in fact you are reducing the risks and in turn breeding from a healthy male whose personality and temperment you are 100% of as you have had since a pup, not a strange hired out stud dog. Alos there are inherited conditions associated with specific breeds due to line breeding and that is a fact as is adequate testing to reduce the risks. You have also not answered how a breeder who owns the stud is careless?? Also tell me how you are certain that the stud is of excellent standard- obviously if his been offered as a stud then a breeder more than likely owns him and is offfering him for stud to either gain profits or because he is a proven stud ? Your not suggesting that one should just go and pay for any random male as a stud?

''Tell me how you are certain that the stud dog is of excellent standard''.
As you said''because he is a proven stud dog''

shinners007 wrote: »

Please show me proof that states "he chances of inbreeding to occur between a great great great grandparent and a dog are literally nil" - please refer to peasants reponse inrelation to line breeding earlier. Do some research on genetics and line breeding please.

It is up to you to do some research and prove the occurance of such an incident.It is not up to me to prove that this didnt happen!

shinners007 wrote: »

The only point i can see that you made was reference to a kennel club's age limit and rules that badly need to be reviewed. Not breeding from a dog over twelve has nothing to do with the genetics involved with inbreeding- responsible breeders wouldnt assume that a dog of twelve could have no possible genetic link to for eg. a female aged 3 (nor in my opinion would a reputable breeder breed or offer a twelve year old male for stud) . That is why bloodlines are so important and ensuring that they are not linked or crossed.

It is simple.If that dog is somehow related to the bitch,he would be a very distant relation and this would have no effect on the pups.

You have failed to make a point.

shinners007

again you neglect to back up your comments with facts and you avoid answering the questions.

''Tell me how you are certain that the stud dog is of excellent standard''.
As you said''because he is a proven stud dog''

- just because a male dog is fertile enough to produce sperm that does not prove he is of an excellent standard - but then again i did expect you to neglect the health status of the male etc.

It is simple.If that dog is somehow related to the bitch,he would be a very distant relation and this would have no effect on the pups.

You have failed to make a point.

Where again is your proof of this or facts - your missing the point that because breeders where only breeding from show dogs and neglecting to breed other dogs not put into shows and who may have been perfectly healthy, it means that the specific Pb and lines where sought after and in order to keep certain looks, apperances, standards etc then line breeding/inbreeding was inevitable. Hence it was very possible to effect the pups espically if a dog from a specific line who had a genetic disease was breed with a another female from that same genetic pool, and this cycle continued to achieve a certain bred standard - how on earth do you think that so many pure breeds dogs have breed associated genetic illness? It didnt just automatically occur. But the main issue that was neglected and still is by some was the actual health of the dogs been bred from - a dog might look fab and gorgeous but if his unhealthy and allowed to breed then will the pups be healthy and if so for how long?

I think ive made plenty of points rather than just one with no substance!

It is up to you to do some research and prove the occurance of such an incident.It is not up to me to prove that this didnt happen!

Again you cannot give facts to prove what you have stated - im educated enough to know what i do know and im honest enough to admit if ever im wrong about something- ive learned this makes me a better person and a more knowledge animal lover and dog breeder- however to me you seem like a troll that is making statements out of the blue and spoiling what was a very interesting thread.

shinners007

It is simple.If that dog is somehow related to the bitch,he would be a very distant relation and this would have no effect on the pups.

You have failed to make a point.

yes keep typing statements like that it shows how much you know about breeding - just fascinating.....:rolleyes:

Our man in Havana

Final warning folks. If I get one more reported post about this thread, it will be locked and people will be banned.

Play nice folks.

shinners007

apologies for going off topic op .:(

GA361

shinners007 wrote: »

again you neglect to back up your comments with facts and you avoid answering the questions.

- just because a male dog is fertile enough to produce sperm that does not prove he is of an excellent standard - but then again i did expect you to neglect the health status of the male etc.

For any reputable breeder it is a given to ensure the sound health status of a stud.

shinners007 wrote: »

Where again is your proof of this or facts - your missing the point that because breeders where only breeding from show dogs and neglecting to breed other dogs not put into shows and who may have been perfectly healthy, it means that the specific Pb and lines where sought after and in order to keep certain looks, apperances, standards etc then line breeding/inbreeding was inevitable. Hence it was very possible to effect the pups espically if a dog from a specific line who had a genetic disease was breed with a another female from that same genetic pool, and this cycle continued to achieve a certain bred standard - how on earth do you think that so many pure breeds dogs have breed associated genetic illness? It didnt just automatically occur. But the main issue that was neglected and still is by some was the actual health of the dogs been bred from - a dog might look fab and gorgeous but if his unhealthy and allowed to breed then will the pups be healthy and if so for how long?

I think ive made plenty of points rather than just one with no substance!

I have decided to bombard you with evidence which strongly backs my belief that both linebreeding and inbreeding can be beneficial-

''With a female who doesn't have too many faults,you might want to establish a strain.This is a line that breeds true and is consistently stamped with the traits and characteristics you find desirable and can only be accomplished through linebreeding and/or inbreeding.''

''Uniformed people assume that outcrossing is the safest method of breeding.This is not true.The method is not what makes a pairing good or bad,but rather the individuals involved.For instance,the most extreme examples of outcrossing are what dogs produce on their own:mixed breeds.''

''Outcrossing prospers when you choose partners that have been linebred themselves''

''Inbreeding does not create defects''

-written by Chris Walkowitcz and Bonnie Wilcox,D.M.V.

sinners007 wrote: »

Again you cannot give facts to prove what you have stated - im educated enough to know what i do know and im honest enough to admit if ever im wrong about something- ive learned this makes me a better person and a more knowledge animal lover and dog breeder- however to me you seem like a troll that is making statements out of the blue and spoiling what was a very interesting thread.

Enough with the personnal insults.Facts and sources have been put forward.