A pet shop on the long mile road has crocodiles for sale ?

lucozader

is this legal ?

how dangerous will they be when they grow up ?

LuckyStar

I don't know how dangerous they would be but the store are being responsible-They have conditions about selling them- they have to see the enclosure you plan to keep them in first before they will sell them to you.

PS They are not crocodiles, they are caimans which are more closely related to alligators.

kerrysgold

Are they the ones that look like baby crocodiles? If so I think I saw on TV that they would have strong enough jaws to remove a finger but I don't know.

The Artist

Spectacled Caiman
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Spectacled Caiman


Conservation status

Least Concern
Scientific classification
Kingdom: Animalia

Phylum: Chordata

Class: Sauropsida

Order: Crocodilia

Family: Alligatoridae

Genus: Caiman

Species: C. crocodilus


Binomial name
Caiman crocodilus
(Linnaeus, 1758)
The Spectacled Caiman (Caiman crocodilus) is a crocodilian reptile found in much of Central and South America. It lives in a range of lowland wetland and riverine habitat types and can tolerate salt water as well as fresh; due in part to this adaptabilty it is the most common of all crocodilian species. Males of the species are generally between 2 and 2.5 meters, while females are smaller, usually around 1.4 meters. The species' common name comes from a bony ridge between the eyes, which gives the appearance of a pair of spectacles.


[edit] References
Crocodile Specialist Group (1996). Caiman crocodilus. 2006 IUCN Red List of Threatened Species. IUCN 2006. Retrieved on 06 May 2006. Database entry includes a brief justification of why this species is of least concern
Crocodilian Species list from the Florida Museum of Natural History

artieanna

I am shocked to think that these are being offered for sale in Ireland. I think it's terrible that these animals are being shipped here for people to show off as the latest plaything.

Definitly not one to buy the kids:eek:

SuperSean11

artieanna wrote: »

Definitly not one to buy the kids:eek:

Why not? Dogs can be pretty dangerous

artieanna

SuperSean11 wrote: »

Why not? Dogs can be pretty dangerous

The key words in what you said is dogs CAN BE dangerous, they are not all dangerous. Come on!!

SuperSean11

artieanna wrote: »

The key words in what you said is dogs CAN BE dangerous, they are not all dangerous. Come on!!

Well if they are kept safely and the kids are well supervised i dont see why not From what i have read on the internet if they are handled from a young age they become calmer and easier to handle

dbrock

been totally honest guys dont get one,,,,, ive kept them before and handled them lots,,, but with any rep they can become nasty,,,,,


and as for saying they check enclosure and so on well last year a certain shop in town didnt as a stupid mate of mine decided to get one,,,, he is ok with reps to be honest,,, and could prob handle it,,,,,,,,,, but believe it or not when he picked it up he sent in his younger bro who hasnt any experiance with any animals,,,, and they gave it to him,,,

any way take it from me been there have the tshirt,,,, unless you got a small pool in your house dont bother,,,

there stunning ,,, make interesting reptiles to work with,,, they do get used to routines,,, but as far as im concerned i think there not for captivity,,,

Demonique

It's Whackers again. There was a piece on the Joe Duffy show last year about them, before the Joe expose they were far more blase about who they sold them too

Ben from Reptile Haven said that in the week after the piece aired he had three 'scumbag types' coming in and looking to buy them, Ben hasn't had a caiman for years and even then said caiman wasn't for sale.

I think the caimans Whackers have could be Cuviers Dwarf caiman

dbrock

it was a cuviers dwarf i kept myself,,,,

and just to make sure we are all clear it wasnt ben in reptile haven where it came from,,,,,

im not here to really make an issue over the shops that sell em rather make you guys aware that i dont recomend em and ive a good bit of experiance with reptiles myself,,,,

Our man in Havana

If you have the space & experience I see no problem with buying them - not that I would like one but I am really getting into my exotics & have plans to get more primates this year - but if I wanted to I could buy tigers as long as I have the cites certificate I can buy anything I want we have no licences over here, where as in the uk for most exotics you would need a DWA licence.

LuckyStar

What was on Joe Duffy about them?

Run_to_da_hills

More than likely these poor creatures will end up flushed down the toilet when they become a problem or find their own way into the sewers when they escape. It happened in New York, The County Council will soon be looking for danger money!!!:eek:

Our man in Havana

Caimens need a to have a cites licence before they can be sold - its illegial to sell cites animals that do not have a licence.

No idea what Joe Duffy was on about - I could get myself a whole zoos worth of rare exotics if I had the space & the money. Its far too easy to buy rare dangerous exotics! but there are people who know how to care for these animals - & build proper enclosures etc.

The Artist

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

More than likely these poor creatures will end up flushed down the toilet when they become a problem or find their own way into the sewers when they escape. It happened in New York, The County Council will soon be looking for danger money!!!:eek:

teanage mutant caimans!.god imagagine that happening here the counsil or sewage men be out of a job!

dbrock

We def need a DWA licence scheme
over here because there , are and will
be many f. Ing idiots, who will prove its
easy to order almost anything into this country ,

The amount of things I've been asked to get some people
from crocs to monkeys, is crazy with 90 percent not having a clue
what there getting in to,

Needless to say they got nothing,

Lauragoesmad

artieanna wrote: »

I am shocked to think that these are being offered for sale in Ireland. I think it's terrible that these animals are being shipped here for people to show off as the latest plaything.

Definitly not one to buy the kids:eek:

Well, if you blatantly didn't like your kids, then it would be!!:D

Lauragoesmad

Bond-007 wrote: »

If you have the space & experience I see no problem with buying them - not that I would like one but I am really getting into my exotics & have plans to get more primates this year - but if I wanted to I could buy tigers as long as I have the cites certificate I can buy anything I want we have no licences over here, where as in the uk for most exotics you would need a DWA licence.

Do you really feel that you can give these animals all they need in captivity? What type of primates are you talking about?

Leeby

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

More than likely these poor creatures will end up flushed down the toilet when they become a problem or find their own way into the sewers when they escape. It happened in New York, The County Council will soon be looking for danger money!!!:eek:

Whackers aren't actually selling them, so panic over, your sewers our safe!

Our man in Havana

Lauragoesmad wrote: »

Do you really feel that you can give these animals all they need in captivity? What type of primates are you talking about?

A.) I can give them all they need and
B.) It is none of your business what primates I am getting. All my animals are captive bred and sourced from ethicial breeders. It took me 5 years of research before I bought my first primate.

Demonique

Leeby wrote: »

Whackers aren't actually selling them, so panic over, your sewers our safe!

Whackers WERE selling them until the furore after the Joe Duffy show

peasant

Bond-007 wrote: »

A.) I can give them all they need and
B.) It is none of your business what primates I am getting. All my animals are captive bred and sourced from ethicial breeders. It took me 5 years of research before I bought my first primate.

...bit touchy today ?

A + B combined means that you can get them and possibly may get them.

Doesn't really answer the question of "should you get them".

______________________________________________________


In case of a croc/ caiman I think that there is a definite "shouldn't". What on earth would anyone be doing with a fairly large and fairly nasty and definately untame animal, other than play sillybuggers and/or show off??

Just because something may not be ecplicitely illegal still doesn't make it right.
And you can't exactly keep a cold blooded croc in an Irish garden pond can you?
So it stands to reason that it will be kept in inadequate conditions (separate room for the 2 meter caiman anyone? ).

What'll be next?

Someone selling hyenas?

Leeby

Demonique wrote: »

Whackers WERE selling them until the furore after the Joe Duffy show

Right, but I mean the one on the long mile road that the thread title is about, they have them, but they're not for sale.

The Artist

The likelihood is that if a pet shop has legally acquired a species of caiman they will have the proper documentation to show this. If you were to purchase one without the proper papers then you would be liable to any prosecution. However as there are a number of species of caiman you would need to provide me with the scientific name of the particular species. It maybe the case that there are some species that do not require paperwork and can be sold legally from pet shops.

stevoman

damn the estate of steve irwin and his franchises!!!!!!

canislupus

What'll be next?

Someone selling hyenas?

~Mod edit: links to porn removed, user banned~

Wouldn't suprise me. Most zoos would struggle to provide a suitable enclosure for a caiman, most definitely not a suitable pet; either are any of the giant species of snake sold in alot of pet shops (Burmese python etc.)

peasant

you might want to edit that second picture there ...NSFW !!

Leeby

canislupus wrote: »

Porn link removed

Eh... is that link right??

doctor evil

Porn link removed

Eeewwww.

Alun

Leeby wrote: »

Eh... is that link right??

It's the oddest looking hyena I've ever seen, that's for sure!

Wagon

canislupus wrote: »

Porn link removed

That's just a load of ****! :eek: Are you sure you put in the right link?

The Artist

peasant wrote: »

you might want to edit that second picture there ...NSFW !!

whats NSFW and where does it go?

Alun

davey180 wrote: »

whats NSFW and where does it go?

NSFW = Not Safe For Work

The Artist

Alun wrote: »

NSFW = Not Safe For Work

ok but what do you do just put down NSFW when you are posting bad pics or link it with the url?

LuckyStar

Bond-007 wrote: »

A.) I can give them all they need and
B.) It is none of your business what primates I am getting. All my animals are captive bred and sourced from ethicial breeders. It took me 5 years of research before I bought my first primate.

She never said it was her business, she was just asking. Most people don't have the means to keep primates.

Demonique

peasant wrote: »

you might want to edit that second picture there ...NSFW !!

What's wrong with the second picture? All I see is some guy walking a hyena in some African town

Our man in Havana

canislupus wrote: »

~Mod edit: links to porn removed, user banned~

Wouldn't suprise me. Most zoos would struggle to provide a suitable enclosure for a caiman, most definitely not a suitable pet; either are any of the giant species of snake sold in alot of pet shops (Burmese python etc.)

canislupus perma banned for posting porn.

Our man in Havana

It really is no ones business as to what animals I keep - yes some may argue that these animals are better in the wild - with the rate of decline of natural habitates I feel that some animals will no longer be around in a few years - ring tailed lemures are at risk as are many of the primates.

I have lots of species of animals & have a common marmoset at the moment - I am looking at squirrel monkeys next & when my common buzzard dies I will get some ring tails. People are welcome to come & see the way I keep my animals before judging me! Yes there are a lot of muppets in the world & a lot have said to me "I wanna buy a monkey the misses wants a baby but a monkeys gotta be cheaper!" Needless to say if I had 4000 monkeys here & was selling some these chaps would not get them! If my primates breed I will inspect premises & enclosures before I would sell them.

We can argue ethics if you like but I am sure 100's of years ago people said the same thing about dogs & cats etc! The hamster is a wild creature as are any of the pets that are kept in captivity now days! I do think its all too easy to get animals & would be happy with a DWA licence over here.

Demonique

Bond-007 wrote: »

canislupus perma banned for posting porn.

Eh, where was the porn in those links? All I saw from both links was some guy in Africa with a muzzled hyena on a leash

tonym

ok i agree with bond if a person is responsible enough then why not keep these animals i have paid a visit to bonds place and i can tell u bonds animals are not only well looked after but she has some of the nicest animals ive seen the some of you are praising ben in reptile haven and yes he is one of the mos responsible owners of exotics that i know of bottom line if u have a responsible seller and buyer then y not

peasant

tonym wrote: »

ok i agree with bond if a person is responsible enough then why not keep these animals i have paid a visit to bonds place and i can tell u bonds animals are not only well looked after but she has some of the nicest animals ive seen the some of you are praising ben in reptile haven and yes he is one of the mos responsible owners of exotics that i know of bottom line if u have a responsible seller and buyer then y not

This is not directed at Bond or anyone else, just a theoretical excercise;


Stay with the example of the caiman fo a minute. Assuming the seller has the permit, the buyer has the permit and the buyer even has half a house (or whatever building) set aside with a wet area and the necessary heat and humidity to keep a caiman happy and healthy.

The question still remains ....WHY? would you want to keep such an animal ?

Just because you can?

Other than a big show-off effect I'd say a caiman offers very little interaction. It's bloody dangerous and most certainly out of place in Ireland.

Conservation is best left to zoos in my opinion, better still, to conservation projects in the natural habitats of these animals.
A captivity-bred exotic that is used to an Irish living room is of little use to re-populate the wilds of Borneo or wherever.

Getting an exotic "pet" keeps the supply chain alive. I don't know the exact figures, but for some exotic "pets" to land in our living rooms up to ten have to die on the way for one to make it.

I just don't get it ...other than "fascination" or some need to "collect", I can't really see any reasons why one would/should want to keep exotic pets.

Annika30

peasant wrote: »

I just don't get it ...other than "fascination" or some need to "collect", I can't really see any reasons why one would/should want to keep exotic pets.

Here here!

Hellrazer

Bond-007 wrote: »

It really is no ones business as to what animals I keep - yes some may argue that these animals are better in the wild - with the rate of decline of natural habitates I feel that some animals will no longer be around in a few years - ring tailed lemures are at risk as are many of the primates.

I have lots of species of animals & have a common marmoset at the moment - I am looking at squirrel monkeys next & when my common buzzard dies I will get some ring tails. People are welcome to come & see the way I keep my animals before judging me! Yes there are a lot of muppets in the world & a lot have said to me "I wanna buy a monkey the misses wants a baby but a monkeys gotta be cheaper!" Needless to say if I had 4000 monkeys here & was selling some these chaps would not get them! If my primates breed I will inspect premises & enclosures before I would sell them.

We can argue ethics if you like but I am sure 100's of years ago people said the same thing about dogs & cats etc! The hamster is a wild creature as are any of the pets that are kept in captivity now days! I do think its all too easy to get animals & would be happy with a DWA licence over here.

Here Here Bond.There are plenty of examples where interested keepers have saved species.In reptile keeping circles there are species(and subspecies) of reptiles which only exist in interested herps homes.

Weidii

I definately wouldn't agree to keeping any animal which cannot be domesticated. People keep these "exotic" pets so they can show them off to their friends. What other pleasure could keeping a caiman bring?

Shelli

But who decides what is considered "exotic".......many people in Ireland would consider all reptiles exotic creatures.

Endangered species are a different story all together, but not all so called "exotics" are endangered at all, and for that matter, many animals considered "exotics" in Ireland are very popular pets in other places!

carwash_2006

I would not consider people keeping pets a that are endangered a worthwhile method of keeping a species in existence. To reliably conserve a species takes a huge amount of organisation and must involve more than one group. If all the remaining animals of a species are all kept in one place it is pointless due to the risk of disease wiping out the lot. But this does not mean that having them in peoples homes is of any use. It must be done by coordination with other groups.

The danger of people keeping them as pets is that the act of getting them there will help cause extinction. I do not accept an argument that they were captive bred to allow people to keep them as pets either. What if the breeder loses their breeding stock and can't locate captive bred animals? If they have been making money, they will almost certainly go and buy new breeding stock from wherever they can get it. Also there are too many animals - say use monkeys as an example - that are badly treated within the pet trade. The only way to stop this is to dry up the demand.

Anybody who wants to have close involvement with a species that is not really a domesticated pet should spend years in college or working with people who really know what they are at. Anybody who disputes this, spend a little time watching Monkey Business on Animal Planet. That is an organisation that really knows what they are talking about. They have a brilliant blueprint for helping animals on the verge of extinction.

I know not everyone will agree with me about this, but perhaps think about it. One person may be able to do an ok job of keeping certain animals that need specialist care, but that person doing it may give others the idea. Those people may not be able to get the animal from the same responsible source, but that may not stop them and there are always irresponsible people who see the opportunity of a quick buck and suddenly you have a huge problem on your hands.

I remember them selling turtles as yellow belly sliders when they were infact a differernt turtle altogether. I asked them what do you feed them and they showed me the turtle pellets.

These turtles closley resembled sliders they come from a different habitat and eat different foods. (can remember the name of them) but i saw somebody else noticed this aswell on another forum .

artieanna

I would be very wary of dangerous exotic animals being too available to the public to keep, as alot of people are very irresponsible.

Just look at how badly some cats/dogs are treated.

Basically if person gets sick of looking after them they usually dump them!

I think this is more relevant in Ireland now, because people can afford to buy things (animals) to show off or for little Tommy cause he wants it....

(I am not referring to people who dedicate their lives to caring for their animals and who have proper enclosures)

peasant

artieanna wrote: »

I would be very wary of dangerous exotic animals being too available to the public to keep, as alot of people are very irresponsible.

Just look at how badly some cats/dogs are treated.

Basically if person gets sick of looking after them they usually dump them!

I think this is more relevant in Ireland now, because people can afford to buy things (animals) to show off or for little Tommy cause he wants it....

(I am not referring to people who dedicate their lives to caring for their animals and who have proper enclosures)

I'd agree with that.

It is one thing for proper fanciers to get these animals through proper channels and care for them according to their needs ...

...but as soon as they start showing up in pet shops, alarm bells should be ringing.

él statutorio

I've spoken to the lads in Wackers about this, the Caimans were brought in primarily for display purposes. If, and its a big if, they were ever to be sold the guys in wackers would insist on a number of site visits beforehand to see the proposed conditions for keeping them before they'd even consider selling them and it would only be to an experienced reptile keeper.