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R624 - Cobh/Fota road dualling [early planning]

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 574 ✭✭✭rebs23


    The Coonagh to Knockalisheen scheme will cost nowhere near €100m. Full funding was already allocated a few years back and €17m has already been spent. Phase 1 of raising the ground level to take the road and building the first 300m was finished around two years ago.

    The tender for Phase 2 (costing €32m)to finish the road was put out in February and is ready to be awarded, but LCCC can't award it until Ryan signs off. He though wants to 'walk the land' in January before signing off.

    It's purpose, as part of Limerick Regeneration, is to open up the Moyross area and it predates any Northern Ring Road plan.
    I didn't realise €17 million has already been spent with another expected €32 million. It's total cost is listed at €50-100 Million in DPER document Ireland's Pipeline of Major Infrastructural Projects (sorry no link). Anyway back on topic..


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,541 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    The Coonagh to Knockalisheen scheme will cost nowhere near €100m. Full funding was already allocated a few years back and €17m has already been spent. Phase 1 of raising the ground level to take the road and building the first 300m was finished around two years ago.

    The tender for Phase 2 (costing €32m)to finish the road was put out in February and is ready to be awarded, but LCCC can't award it until Ryan signs off. He though wants to 'walk the land' in January before signing off.

    It's purpose, as part of Limerick Regeneration, is to open up the Moyross area and it predates any Northern Ring Road plan.

    It's in the PfG that roads have to be built, it states that they are important in terms of inter connectivity around the country (or words to that effect). Besides, roads are Hildegarde Naughton's responsibility, she's the roads Minister in the Government, not Ryan.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,604 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    What €140m regional road are Limerick Council progressing?
    https://www.limerick.ie/council/services/roads-and-travel/road-improvements-major-schemes/limerick-northern-distributor

    Knocklisheen-Annacotty.

    Of course, I forgot to mention that this project is also under the purview of Clare County Council


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,604 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Tender for route selection & design to come out for this shortly. Effectively a rehash of Post 1 in this thread. This will take 2 years

    Bridge section prioritised in conjunction with Marino Point upgrade.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40248605.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,101 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    marno21 wrote: »
    10 years later...

    Cork County Council made this one of their many priorities when looking for funding as part of the 2016-2022 Capital Plan Review.

    In light of the fact that €4.5bn has been allocated for RLR projects, based on appraisal and subsequent prioritisation, I would expect to finally see movement on this scheme in the next few years.


    Just like my original post was waaaaay off the mark so was yours :D


    I still have that old booklet somewhere, it'll be very interesting to see in a few years if things are the same. I suspect they will be.


    The difficulty this scheme will face will be quite high. Unfortunately the only solution is a dual carriageway through an old forest and a bridge directly across a nature reserve.


    Unless they took my idea, which would be an extremely expensive new junction on the N25 at Harpers Island and have the road follow the railway line onto Cobh where it turns inland and heads to the town.


    No nature reserve problems, almost no houses, and no problems with water flow changes as the railway line has already done that and nothing would change.


    But yeah, this scheme is badly needed and unfortunately its going to cost a huge amount of money... there is no other sane solution for the Cobh problem. Not to mention that you can't currently walk or cycle the Fota road AT ALL and there is absolutely no solution for that possible within the current confines of the road.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,756 ✭✭✭✭Mushy


    Anyone know why the resurfacing outside Fota just suddenly stopped?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,101 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    They seem to be taking this more seriously. Although the article is about the M20, the R624 is mentioned and is also mentioned as being extremely complicated. For obvious reasons. Lashing a bridge and a DC through a nature reserve will not be easy.


    My solution is still to follow the railway line somehow.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1 pintail


    Harper's Island is a nature reserve: Harper's Island Wetlands



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    That was some thread bump!



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,604 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    In this regard, Cork County Council submitted an initial project appraisal to the Department in 2019 regarding the upgrade of the R624 Cobh Road. The project, as submitted, includes upgrading the existing N25-R624 interchange, the provision of a dual carriageway from the interchange to Marino Point, widening of Slatty Bridge, the provision of a new bridge crossing to Great Island at Belvelly and upgrading the existing R624 from Marino Point to Cobh.


    The estimated cost of this scheme was more than €100 million, with possible staged implementation.


    In line with Government requirements Cork County Council also produced a Strategic Assessment Report (SAR) for the Great Island Connectivity Scheme and a draft was forwarded to the Department in November 2022.


    Since then, both the Public Spending Code and the Department’s Transport Appraisal Framework (TAF) guidance have been updated - the Department continues to liaise with the Council regarding new requirements under the new infrastructure Guidelines and the TAF including the preparation of a Project Outline Document (POD) and business case incorporating the work already undertaken at the SAR stage.

    Latest from MoT.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 172 ✭✭Risoc


    Send it across the river and you could have a very long term solution to n40 blockages, like an outer ring road.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 96 ✭✭idi na khuy hai


    Wait till you hear the backlash from the green libtards for that excellent suggestion...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,101 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    In other words, absolutely nothing has happened!


    Edit: Slatty Bridge is absolutely sinking as it stands, it doesn't need widening it needs replacement.

    As long as they don't demolish Belvelly Bridge thats a plus. That bridge should be listed.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,604 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    In its decision, An Bord Pleanála said the R624 road and its capacity would not be sufficient to cater to any traffic-intensive use port-related or otherwise, noting that there are no current plans to upgrade the road in the application. 

    "The proposed development at Marino Point provides an opportunity to make use of the rail resource at Marino Point for rail-based freight distribution of product, therefore, reducing the reliance of road-based transport in favour of more sustainable transport infrastructure," the planning board said.

    However, O'Callaghan Properties responded: "The contention in the ABP decision that somehow rail might reduce the reliance on road transportation for the activities of Goulding is simply untenable given the logistical requirements to distribute to individual farms throughout the region. The issues referenced in the ABP decision must be resolved if Docklands is to be developed and its potential fully realised."

    It'll be interesting to see what happens here. 1,825 apartments on Centre Park Road would be quite positive for the environment.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/property/developmentconstruction/arid-41523845.html



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,101 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    This is rumbling on in the Cork developments thread and is a disaster.

    Basically Gouldings got approval to built 1825 apartments on their current site in Cork City so long as they got permission to move their operations to Marino Point. The Marino Point project is what ABP refused (after sitting on it for 2.5 years) - residents in the area were going nuts about a fertilizer plant being built where IFI (Irish FERTILIZER Industries) used to be. ABP state that the R624 and Belvelly cannot handle the traffic associated with this (I agree), and that rail at the old freight yard at Marino Point should have been included in the application. The problem is Irish Rail have no interest in that. So a mess all around.

    What interested me as well recently as that the scoping study for the N40 Cork North Ring included areas of Cobh where the R624 upgrade would be likely. But that project has been suspended (or at least creatively delayed) by Mr Ryan.

    In any case my points still stand

    • Belvelly bridge can't be upgraded. Whilst not listed it is a local landpark and the Martello Tower and Belvelly castle get in the way anyway
    • A bridge out along the railway line to Harpers Island and the N25 can't happen due to the nature reserve there
    • The old (2008) plans are still the most likely but would attract horrendous resistance due to the destruction of old trees along the Fota Road (which everyone is used to seeing - not an isolated forest).
    • Any bridge in the logical (2008) plan location would have to plough through a renowned wetland/marsh area and bird sanctuary
    • The fact that Fota Island has the zoo restricts a lot as well

    Its really not an easy one to solve, at all. And the expense of it all means that

    • Cork Co Co aren't interested or can't afford it
    • Eamonn Ryan doesn't want to upgrade it
    • TII/NTA don't want to take it on as its not strategic national infrastructure, its a development generator as mentioned above
    • It will cost a small fortune for not a lot of benefit REALLY



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,201 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    TII are not interested because, as a regional road, it is outside of their legal remit. Cork County Council is the responsibile party for any work on this road, but they see it as primarily benefiting the City, so are reluctant to spend on it.

    I suspect both Cork councils wanted it scoped into N40 so that they could get the National roads capital budget to fund their local development infrastructure (it's a hard habit to break, see also the paused N25 Glounthaune scheme).

    Let's not kid ourself though: the zoo isn't the problem with the offline plan; the golf course is. People don't pay that kind of money to have a busy road near them while they play their round of golf.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,409 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    The stalling of this is nothing to do with Ryan, if anything the 2:1 ratios could have opened up funding for the Fota road, which has a lot of traffic and is very uncomfortable for active travel. It's all about the Co Co trying to get it to be funded as a National project, and TII wanting it to be local. I can see both sides of this to be honest.

    Even more frustrating to me, is the lack of IÉ interest/ability to facilitate upgrade of Marino. It's basically being refused for development now because of the lack of that rail spur (and more importantly, rolling stock and drivers).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,101 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Fair enough, Ryan isn't directly delaying this one (that we know of) but if he pauses the N40 and it gets lumped into that somehow, then it will be a problem.

    I'd also say that active travel here is not "very uncomfortable", but "outright suicidal". A few cyclists use it and its horrendous for them. You wouldn't dare walk it, full stop.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,639 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Stop worrying about Ryan. He ceases to be a TD this weekend. And his party is not likely to be involved in the next government.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,310 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    It seems OCP/Gouldings don't want to both with rail. From post above with article linked;

    However, O'Callaghan Properties responded: "The contention in the ABP decision that somehow rail might reduce the reliance on road transportation for the activities of Goulding is simply untenable given the logistical requirements to distribute to individual farms throughout the region. The issues referenced in the ABP decision must be resolved if Docklands is to be developed and its potential fully realised."

    Surely the obvious solution is to bulk transport by rail to a depot north of Cork (and possibly to another depot further north again) and truck it from there?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,101 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    It seems logical but is just silly in ways, and the big freight depot (say around Blackpool or Mallow) will attract the same number of judicial reviews as the R624 project likely would. And the latter would benefit more people, despite being much more destructive to the area.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,409 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    No, the description Pete_Cavan has is exactly right: that's specifically what the all-Ireland rail review proposes. A depot to the North towards Mallow for distribution, and a ship/rail terminus in Marino Point.

    But also Gouldings are right: there is no rail spur, no rolling stock, no drivers, no distribution yard, but you're refusing permission because we're not using these mythical things which are outside of our control. ABP have basically just refused the development of Marino unless the road or rail is done. And neither of those things are currently planned. So ABP have just locked a lot of industry into the city centre.

    They've just shut down a lot of the more progressive planning of the harbour area.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,409 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    A surprisingly large number of cyclists use that road. It's the only link for any round-the-harbour trip, and it's the link towards Kinsale for any cyclists in East Cork. If there's a SW blowing (a very common wind) it's going to get a lot of leisure cyclists. The utility/commute cyclists then tend to cut into Fota itself and use private property, for better or for worse.

    I've cycled that road a lot of times and it is reasonably safe, in my experience the drivers there are very patient and the surface is good. But also it's very uncomfortable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,310 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    I don't see why a freight depot would attract the same number of JRs as the R624 project likely would. It's not a given that a freight depot would attract any JR (unlike R624 dualing). A new rail depot is needed in Cork anyway for storage and maintenance of an expanded passenger rail fleet, a freight depot could be combined with that.

    It really should be at least considered with the M20 project. The M20 will be very close to the rail line between Blarney and Mallow yet they may as well be 100km apart. The M20 project has a few car parks which are presented as multi-modal hubs but I can't see them having much use beyond being a general car park (and possibly host to questionable activities).

    I think the ABP decision here is fair enough. It's for the applicant to propose the rail solution from Marino Point. IÉ should also facilitate this (and the government who ultimately will be paying to have any depot built). As it is all linked, limitations on track access fees, etc. should be set, either through ABP conditions or other method. IÉ shouldn't be free to gouge and should be mandated to play ball.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,409 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Yes…but…

    The problem is that could all take a decade.

    Meantime, we need housing in the city, and a nice chunk of the city centre is taken up with industry, so large amount of space, low employment and no housing.

    Really the biggest problem here is ABP taking 2.5 years to give an answer. And there's nowhere better for Goulding right now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,310 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Well, even if approved by ABP, and even if that came within weeks of the application, nothing could happen with the city centre site until the new facility is built and operational. As things stand, there is the time for the new application to get approval (hopefully faster than the previous one), plus the time to get Marino Point operational to get the rail freight facilities in place. Doable if they wanted and would have been a far better investment for rail freight than reopening the Foynes line, but this is getting well of topic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,101 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Not one but two articles in the Irish Examiner about this today.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-41546149.html

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-41546692.html

    A decade away at least. And as I've said before, opposition to this will be high.

    These paragraphs highlight it nicely.

    "

    All understandable for anyone who uses the R624 and, especially, Belvelly Bridge on a daily basis — the only road access to and from Cobh and Great Island. A crash either side of the bridge can effectively shut off access to the island for hours.

    A technical report on the council’s planning file shows that there are four locations along the route where heavy vehicles are shown to be within just 300mm when passing and, at six locations, heavy vehicles are within 400mm when passing — including at the bridge, where they cannot pass without yielding.

    It is especially frustrating for Cobh Chamber, which has been actively highlighting the need for the redevelopment of the R624 for over 50 years, and which has highlighted the fact that — because it is classed as a regional road — its management is the responsibility of Cork County Council and not Transport Infrastructure Ireland.

    "



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 679 ✭✭✭DylanQuestion


    What is the desire to move to Marino Point? Should we not be focusing on Ringaskiddy, given it's about to get a motorway connecting to the N40? Marino Point is on an awkward regional road that will never be upgraded in our lifetimes for the various reasons listed; is in the middle of the harbour with no feasible conneciton to the national network; and is right next to a golf course. The only potential connection to the city centre I can see is a either a tunnel or ferry from the R610 at Passage West. However, the R610 really isn't appropriate for freight traffic - the part running through the city is residential (Rochestown Road, Douglas Road, etc), while the part connecting to Ringaskiddy runs through the middle of a forest. So yeah.. it's a disaster of a site



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,409 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    In one word: rail.

    Marino would be an ideal spot to develop, if rail can be leveraged. Ringaskiddy doesn't have that benefit.

    As a minor secondary positive, Marino Point traffic doesn't need to go through the tunnel. So it can feed East Cork and Waterford a little bit better than Ringaskiddy can



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,604 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Interestingly, Origin said though that Gouldings would not work at Marino Point if forced to use rail. Which may give them flexibility as to where they could site any future relocation (that would take time though).



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 679 ✭✭✭DylanQuestion


    Would the tunnel from Kent to Blackpool not seriously limit any use of the Dublin line for freight? There is going to be a high demand for those two precious rail tracks over the next few years, between the Dublin line and the Commuter service



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,409 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    I'm far from a rail expert but I think you could be looking at it the wrong way. I'd have as big (bigger) a question about the Midleton/Cobh commuter sections as I would about the Mallow section. CMATS has 5 min frequency at Tivoli and 10 min frequency on the Mallow line.

    But I suspect it's still doable, just probably not moving freight at periods of high passenger demand. I remember the days when there were still freight movements on the Dublin line, there were little shunting loop things. There used to be something directly North of Killeens (now just an IÉ engineering yard) and Kent seemed to have freight waiting on it a lot. And of course the trains only really needed to make it from North Esk or so through to the other side in those days, but they managed it. So my guess is: yes you can do it, but you need good management and reintroduce those loops. North Esk, Kent and Tivoli come to mind, and Killeens to the North.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,101 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    There was a question in the Cork forum (or was it infrastructure?) that the height of the Kent Tunnel restricts certain container sizes on standard bogeys - you have to have a lower floor bogey or something like that. Which we have some of.

    Basically they didn't think it too much of an issue - but they weren't thinking about capacity in that discussion.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,604 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-41558383.html



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,409 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    No progress here so.

    The Co Co still hopes the NTA and TII will fund their N25-oriented development plans. Lads, get on with developing around the existing train line please. And stop bleating on about developing around a new N25 interchange West of Midleton. Also, get a train station into the Carrigtohill IDA. And a footpath on the road from Carrigaloe train station to the ferry. And from Passage to Carrigaline/Ringaskiddy.

    And while we're at it, get on with developing Mogeely so that the train line extension can be justified. And get on with completion of the already-approved infrastructure in the area (Little Island N25 overbridge, Eastgate bus gates, Carrigtohill development roads, South Midleton footpaths and cycleways, etc etc etc). There's a massive massive backlog in the area, of council-led projects that haven't broken ground or are delayed.

    But no, it's all central government's fault that there's an infrastructure deficit, for not funding the multi-million euro N25 interchange and R264.

    I'm not remotely surprised these lads are not able to conceive of non-N25-oriented transit, one of the quoted people in the article once told me that greenways aren't for cyclists. Dinosaurs will be dinosaurs.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,604 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,101 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    It is, and at least the scheme is beginning to get some public attention and politicians are interested in it. I really feel that the sheer expense of it (as well as it basically being a development generator and not a bypass) as well as an R road that the councils couldn't possibly fund themselves, basically meant it would not have happened. So thats good news now.

    All that said, 7, 8, 9, 10 years from now even with all of the attention in the world.



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