R624 - Cobh/Fota road dualling [early planning]

Chris_533976

Surprised I didn't post this sooner, but anyway.

Current access to Cobh (13,000 AADT) is via the Fota Road and an old bridge, which directly hits a t-junction immediately onto the island. Its a bit of a bottleneck at the moment, especially during the rush hour and isn't quite wide enough for two lorries to happily pass without problems.

Heres the Yahoo maps page of the area -

http://maps.yahoo.com/#mvt=m&lat=51.892085&lon=-8.276252&mag=5

The Fota road itself has a 60kmh speed limit now and is quite twisty with poor line-of-site and frequently has tractors and slow rubbish holding it up.

So Cork Co Council has proposed a 2+2 dual carriageway (w/ roundabouts) access scheme for Cobh. It'll be a part online, part offline build with a large new girder bridge for access to the island, leaving the old bridge intact. It'll go from where that map has the word "Fota" and will lead to where the map says "Marino".

The Public Consultation for the preferred route occurred late last year, heres the details -





Thought a few people here might be interested. Wont be built for a couple of years yet (they're heading into Preliminary Design now), but it is needed quite badly for the island.

invincibleirish

Fabulous stuff,kudos to Cork Co.Co. any idea of how much it'll cost, also surely it will be only be the first part of an eventual plan to improve the road going into Cobh further on as until you reach Rushbrooke its very unsuited for the traffic it has?

murphaph

Nice scheme there. Looks like some shoreline land reclamation on the mainland if that map is anyway accurate?

How many kms altogther? looks long enough there. If Cork (with its excellent CASP) wasn't subsidising counties with no comprehension of planning it could afford a lot more infrastructure like this.

Chris_533976

Mainline will be about 4km, but thats just a rough measurement on a map. The bridge will be quite expensive tho as its a 2+2 bridge of about (guess) 250m.

deRanged

That looks fantastic - the sooner the better.

murphaph

Stick it up for discussion on SABRE chris.

Chris_533976

To the crosspost mobile

murphaph

Lol, does it backfire like the original?!:D

Chris_533976

Fortunately its not a troll thread, because those do backfire when crossposted resulting in a healthy weilding of the banstick

invincibleirish

murphaph wrote: »

Nice scheme there. Looks like some shoreline land reclamation on the mainland if that map is anyway accurate?

How many kms altogther? looks long enough there. If Cork (with its excellent CASP) wasn't subsidising counties with no comprehension of planning it could afford a lot more infrastructure like this.

Before we totally wet ourselves with Cork Councils CASP lets remember they still built on old lines out of the city towards Ballincollig/Bandon, if only those alignments had been preserved!

murphaph

invincibleirish wrote: »

Before we totally wet ourselves with Cork Councils CASP lets remember they still built on old lines out of the city towards Ballincollig/Bandon, if only those alignments had been preserved!

Indeed. Every authority is guilty of such behaviour but Cork has possibly go the best grip on reality of any in the country. The City and County Councils actually work together! Compare and contrast to Waterford/Kilkenny, Limerick/Limerick/Clare and of course Dublin/Fingal/South Dublin/Dun Laoghaire Rathdown.

Niall1234

Ideally it would be lovely to have a spur off the proposed Ringaskiddy Dual Carriageway and have a nice suspension bridge over Cork Harbour into Cobh.

But hey, this is Ireland, we don't do impressive construction projects. (Would look well though )


Back to reality. How come they won't be doing 2+2 all the way to the junction with the N25. 2+2 back to single lanes always cause traffic to backup.

Chris_533976

I asked that question, the people at the meeting said that it was outside the scope of the study and that it would probobly be easy to do anyway (fat chance).

I dont think it'll be a huge issue as there arent major tailbacks at the moment, and its a fairly short (~1km) section.

Padraig Mor

A nice scheme but the R624 from IFI towards Cobh will need SERIOUS refurbishment and widening. God knows what they'll do on the section of road alongside Carrigaloe train station as I can't see how they could widen it - maybe if they removed all the cars parked illegally outside the houses there it might help!

marno21

10 years later...

Cork County Council made this one of their many priorities when looking for funding as part of the 2016-2022 Capital Plan Review.

In light of the fact that €4.5bn has been allocated for RLR projects, based on appraisal and subsequent prioritisation, I would expect to finally see movement on this scheme in the next few years.

Chris_5339762

It should do. Whilst I do think dual carriageway access is way OTT, the lack of pedestrian and cycle facilities along the fota road (read: none at all) and the fact that Belvelly Bridge is the only bridge onto Cobh island and can be fun at rush hour, justifies a scheme.

I only hope they'll start the process again and extend the scheme to the N25 junction, because Slatty Bridge, connecting Fota Island (which itself connects to Cobh via Belvelly) to the N25 was built in the 1770s and is falling down. Its also the only bridge without a diversion via Carrigtwohill.

Aontachtoir

Short article in the Evening Echo today about Cork County Council's ongoing attempts to have the Carrigtwohill-Cobh R624 upgraded to a national road and dualled. Anyone who's travelled this road will know how badly an upgrade like this is needed, especially around the Belvelly bridge. Lots of farmland on the Great Island though so maybe a dual carriageway could be run directly across from Belvelly to Cobh, rather than hugging the shore of the Lee as the current road does.
https://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/County-Council-continues-bid-to-upgrade-Fota-Road-8a5828e6-2c8a-47a0-b6ec-d89b5ba3678c-ds

veryangryman

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Short article in the Evening Echo today about Cork County Council's ongoing attempts to have the Carrigtwohill-Cobh R624 upgraded to a national road and dualled. Anyone who's travelled this road will know how badly an upgrade like this is needed, especially around the Belvelly bridge. Lots of farmland on the Great Island though so maybe a dual carriageway could be run directly across from Belvelly to Cobh, rather than hugging the shore of the Lee as the current road does.
https://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/County-Council-continues-bid-to-upgrade-Fota-Road-8a5828e6-2c8a-47a0-b6ec-d89b5ba3678c-ds

National.... i dont get his logic. Who uses that road other than those going to a small suburban town. Jesus i hope they dont mess up the existing decent system by allowing this.

If traffic numbers allow then by all means dual like done with some R roads l.

Aontachtoir

veryangryman wrote: »

National.... i dont get his logic. Who uses that road other than those going to a small suburban town. Jesus i hope they dont mess up the existing decent system by allowing this. 
If traffic numbers allow then by all means dual like done with some R roads l.

Cobh is a bit more than just a random small suburban town. It's the largest town on the Great Island, and quite a popular tourist destination too (cruise ships, tourist sights etc). As the article also notes, there is significant housing expansion planned for the island too. The current road access to Cork through Fota is hardly "decent" - it's a narrow, twisty road which definitely needs improvement.

I presume the goal of getting it turned into an N-road is so that TII pay for upgrading it, not the Council. All the more reason in my opinion that TII should be expanded and given responsibility for the R-roads too.

marno21

Dun Laoighre has a comparative national route although it's more of a collection of signposts than a defined route

Cobh has brutal road access and badly needs an additional bridge even for to cater for emergencies in the event of an issue with the existing ****heap of a bridge.

Cobh has exceptional rail access to be fair with 3 stations and regular services.

I agree regional roads under TII would be a good idea as it would consolidate improvements and make them consistent instead of the current scattergun approach. No point putting them under TII though if they are going to be starved of funding.

There badly needs to be an upgrade programme advanced for regional roads, especially for removing single lane bridges, dangerous corners and bad junctions. This finally seems to be happening for national secondaries.

Chris_5339762

marno21 wrote: »

Cobh has brutal road access and badly needs an additional bridge even for to cater for emergencies in the event of an issue with the existing ****heap of a bridge

The bridge is whats needed here really, even the upgrade proposed in 2006 did not dual everything, it went from the entrance to Fota hotel (not the wildlife park) onto the island, but left about a mile of single carriageway over the equally crap Slatty Water Bridge to the N25.


This project is needed, but I'd say second bridges are needed at both crossings really rather than anything else. The existing Belvelly Bridge is lovely but the fact that its the only road access to such a large town is a problem.

Heartbreak Hank

marno21 wrote: »

I agree regional roads under TII would be a good idea as it would consolidate improvements and make them consistent instead of the current scattergun approach. No point putting them under TII though if they are going to be starved of funding.

There badly needs to be an upgrade programme advanced for regional roads, especially for removing single lane bridges, dangerous corners and bad junctions. This finally seems to be happening for national secondaries.

Is there a reason that this doesn't happen? Is it councils want to hold onto the responsibility or TII don't want to take it on?

veryangryman

Heartbreak Hank wrote: »

Is there a reason that this doesn't happen? Is it councils want to hold onto the responsibility or TII don't want to take it on?

I'd imagine that neither want to spend the money. I stand by my point that it's not a National route, more a commuter/touristy route. Dual it yes, but if the Coco pops (the county council people) do a Galway and get ridiculous with assigning national; routes (think the N83, N67 extentions) just to save themselves a buck, i think i might just give up on life.

AugustusMinimus

I’m struggling to think of another town the size of Conn which isn’t served by a National Route. At least one not attached to a larger urban area.

veryangryman

Portarlington. In fairness anything South Cork and theres nowhere else to go without driving into the sea!
Galway has about 50 miles west, Dublin hundreds north and south, Limerick in every direction etc so they need Natiional routes.

marno21

veryangryman wrote: »

Portarlington. In fairness anything South Cork and theres nowhere else to go without driving into the sea!
Galway has about 50 miles west, Dublin hundreds north and south, Limerick in every direction etc so they need Natiional routes.

Cobh is about 50% bigger than Portarlington.

The only places bigger in Ireland without national road access are Malahide, and would be Carrigaline only the N28 to Rinagskiddy skirts the town. Tramore, Rush, Skerries, Portmarnock, Trim also big towns without access.

marno21

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Funding-application-for-the-overhaul-of-Cobhs-main-road-35bda603-7a43-463c-9acb-3727107c6f1b-ds

This article is very light on actual detail but it looks like something may be happening on this route at last.

Aontachtoir

marno21 wrote: »

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Funding-application-for-the-overhaul-of-Cobhs-main-road-35bda603-7a43-463c-9acb-3727107c6f1b-ds

This article is very light on actual detail but it looks like something may be happening on this route at last.

Would really love a bit more detail on what exactly the Council have in mind to "rehabilitate" this road. Are there old maps from pre-crash attempts to do so? Can we assume dualling to Cobh?

marno21

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Would really love a bit more detail on what exactly the Council have in mind to "rehabilitate" this road. Are there old maps from pre-crash attempts to do so? Can we assume dualling to Cobh?

Take another look at Post #1 of this thread.

Aontachtoir

marno21 wrote: »

Take another look at Post #1 of this thread.

Thank you.

It's a nice snapshot of the route on Fota (and where the new bridge might be). There's a lot more to the route though. If they're really going to dual it all the way to the N25 they'll have to replace or widen the existing bridge just next to the resort entrance, and at the other end there's no room to dual the existing R624 after it passes under the railway to run alongside the Lee (unless Carrigaloe in its entirety is CPO'd and flattened). Unless they decide not to upgrade that part, it will be interesting to see how they plan on getting the dual carriageway all the way to Cobh.

Either way, delighted to see some movement on improving this very subpar stretch of road. Well done Cork County Council - I'll miss them after the city boundary expands.

AugustusMinimus

Very badly needed. In addition, the 60kph limit between the N25 and Belvelly is beyond a joke.

I presume nothing can really be done between Belvelly and Cobh?

hans aus dtschl

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Very badly needed. In addition, the 60kph limit between the N25 and Belvelly is beyond a joke.

I presume nothing can really be done between Belvelly and Cobh?

They'll surely make Ballard Hill or some new offline-build dual carriageway equivalent the main road to Cobh, and use the Tay Road as a kind of distributor ring road for the town. Donegal Hill and Belvelly could have a link to the new road then. That would free up the old waterside road for local traffic and greenway-style use.

On that note, the 60k limit on Foaty Island itself is presumably because of the cyclists and pedestrians: there's no alternate route for them, and it's part of the round-the-harbour route. I've seen few enough pedestrians on it but a lot of cyclists. I don't understand why the council never used the extra available width to put in segregated footpaths and/or a cycleway. It's slightly too narrow for dualling but there's definitely room for those.

Chris_5339762

Its badly needed but the only real problem is the junction on the Great Island side of Belvelly bridge. That is a bit of an annoying T-junction.

Belvelly bridge needs to have an alternate bridge built as its the only access but it is built like a brick shi... well you know what kind of house I mean. It never sinks, never gets bumpy and only ever gets pot holes in the modern tar. Slatty Bridge, between the Fota Hotel and the Carrigtohill interchange is constantly sinking and falling apart. Thats the one to worry about.

Realistically the Fota Road does need dualling, it would be desirable. Its only if you get stuck behind a tractor or a cyclist (who has absolutely no other route off the island apart from the ferry) that is slows down. Otherwise it works surprisingly well.

Ballard Hill is way underpar to be the main route to Cobh as its so steep. You'll notice splats of concrete half way up it, caused by cement mixers dribbling their load (mind out of the gutter) as they go up the hill. Something better would have to be done, and the Tay Road is poor enough. The Tay Road Crossroads are absolutely bloody lethal though.

hans aus dtschl

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Ballard Hill is way underpar to be the main route to Cobh as its so steep. You'll notice splats of concrete half way up it, caused by cement mixers dribbling their load (mind out of the gutter) as they go up the hill. Something better would have to be done, and the Tay Road is poor enough. The Tay Road Crossroads are absolutely bloody lethal though.

I agree, all of these could do with major improvements. All are currently too narrow too.

marno21

€100m price tag on this

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Cobh-Road-upgrade-could-cost-100m-fa044ced-fc50-40d9-949d-b1a0014f3082-ds

Given that funding won't be allocated to a regional road, the Council are seeking to have it redesignated as a national road. There are similar size towns with similar national road access.

BelfastVanMan

marno21 wrote: »

€100m price tag on this

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Cobh-Road-upgrade-could-cost-100m-fa044ced-fc50-40d9-949d-b1a0014f3082-ds

Given that funding won't be allocated to a regional road, the Council are seeking to have it redesignated as a national road. There are similar size towns with similar national road access.

Anyone any new suggestions for the possible new name?

N35 seems fairly logical, if it's a primary, N79 (old name for N30) if it's Secondary...?

AugustusMinimus

BelfastVanMan wrote: »

Anyone any new suggestions for the possible new name?

N35 seems fairly logical, if it's a primary, N79 (old name for N30) if it's Secondary...?

Is there much value in this scheme given it’s only as far as Belvelly? €100m would nearly get you a bridge across to Passage West.

hans aus dtschl

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Is there much value in this scheme given it’s only as far as Belvelly? €100m would nearly get you a bridge across to Passage West.

Did I misread?
I read it as three schemes:
Cobh Cross to Belvelly (Bramley lodge to Belvelly),
Belvelly to Cobh, and
New Belvelly bridge
With a combined cost of €100m.
It doesn't seem unreasonable?

I'd love to see some space being made on the old alignment for walkers and cyclists. There's heavy enough traffic on the road. Foaty island is a really sketchy stretch to walk or cycle and it forms part of a potential round-the-harbour route. I know people who tried to walk a loop of the harbour and there and Dunkettle were the big problem spots.
There's space for that infrastructure at low cost even now, but no movement on it at all. Or funding.

marno21

R624 to remain a regional road as per Eamon Ryan

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2020-12-10a.561

rebs23

marno21 wrote: »

R624 to remain a regional road as per Eamon Ryan

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2020-12-10a.561

That's a real slap in the face to the Council! So much for sustainable development and moving all those Seveso sites from the City Docklands. Really puts at question the development of Marino Point, etc. Real short sighted decision.

hans aus dtschl

Yeah bit of a disaster because the Council will struggle to fund the type of upgrade that they've originally proposed.
I'm not sure there's a cheaper alternative either.

If they were talking about ploughing more money into sustainable infra on Cobh and Fota it'd be logical, but at the moment there's kind of no plan at all.

KrisW1001

R624 is in no way a national route. This was Cork County Council trying to pull a fast one and get the Department of Transport to pay for its local commuter traffic.

Am I right that every single dual-carriageway road around Cork city has green or blue signs on it (and is thus nationally funded)? I'm trying to think of any dual-carriageway R-roads around here, but I can't.

Pete_Cavan

Yeah I struggle to see how a relatively short road to an island with a small enough population could be considered of national importance. It is literally a road to a single town and nowhere else, it is even pushing the definition of regional truth be told.

KrisW1001

Great Island has a population of about 10-15,000 people, and R624 is the only road route on or off it. It absolutely deserves upgrading, but I always felt it was a bit rich for Cork Co Co to try get that upgrade funded by the budget for national roads.

marno21

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Yeah I struggle to see how a relatively short road to an island with a small enough population could be considered of national importance. It is literally a road to a single town and nowhere else, it is even pushing the definition of regional truth be told.

Cobh has a population of 12,800, bigger than Ballina and Westport which have national primary routes feeding them, and bigger than the towns served by most national routes.

The regional road comment is even more bizarre given that many places with less than 1,000 people are served by regional routes.

Regardless, there is a €69m project on regional roads progressing in Clare. Limerick Council are progressing a route with a price tag of €140m. It's very doable if the agencies involved push it hard enough.

Cookiemunster

What €140m regional road are Limerick Council progressing?

Pete_Cavan

marno21 wrote: »

Cobh has a population of 12,800, bigger than Ballina and Westport which have national primary routes feeding them, and bigger than the towns served by most national routes.

The regional road comment is even more bizarre given that many places with less than 1,000 people are served by regional routes.

The N26 serves more than just the town of Ballina, it serves numerous towns and villages in north west Mayo and west Sligo and it provides a link between a National Primary and a National Secondary road. There is a case for it to be a National Secondary but it is certainly used for more than just journeys from one end of it to the other. The designation of a road has little to do with the population of any one town on it, it is based on the wider importance of the road and the places it directly and indirectly serves.

The R264 serves one big town but very little else. Once you cross the bridge you are extremely limited in where you can go. You don't get traffic using that road on the way to somewhere else so the road really is regional at best. Okay the Passage West Ferry opens journeys out to the wider region which justifies that designation but I dont think it is a route that can honestly be claimed to be of national importance.

KrisW1001

R264 absolutely meets the requirements for Regional route status. This shouldn't even be an argument. There are shorter R-routes that connect fewer people to the national route network. There's also enough transport demand from Cobh to Cork to support a railway link.

I've been stuck on this road enough times to wish it was improved, although if it were my project I'd change the routing to make it a loop: cross the bridge, turn left, go as far as the "top of the hill" in Cobh, swing West, down to Rushbrooke and Belvelly and back over the bridge.

So yes, I think it needs doing. I just would like Cork to start investing in these road improvements out of its own money rather than trying to piggyback on the National Primary Route budget. Another example that needs investment and bypasses is the R586 that runs from Bandon to Bantry and forms the spine of West Cork.

rebs23

Cookiemunster wrote: »

What €140m regional road are Limerick Council progressing?

Coonagh to Knockalisheen?

https://www.limerick.ie/council/services/roads-and-travel/road-improvements-major-schemes/coonagh-knockalisheen
It says here the main contract is estimated at €35 Million on the Limerick Council site but DPER documents show it is in the range of €50-100 Million.
https://www.limerickpost.ie/2020/12/04/greens-allowing-grass-to-grow-on-northside-plans/
Also https://www.tipperarycoco.ie/roads/killaloe-bypass-shannon-bridge-crossing
Killaloe - Ballina Bridge crossing

It will be really interesting to see if Eamon Ryan signs off on these roads. The Killaloe-Ballina one has been in the mix for decades and is badly needed but it does provide for another route into Clare off the M7.
The Coonagh - Knockalisheen road is a 2.2km dual carriageway into Moyross. It's hard to justify that price tag of upwards of €100 Million for a regional road which will have very limited use as an access point to Moyross? I don't know if there are other reasons for it's construction such as stage 1 of the Limerick Northern Ring Road?

rebs23

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The R264 serves one big town but very little else. Once you cross the bridge you are extremely limited in where you can go. You don't get traffic using that road on the way to somewhere else so the road really is regional at best. Okay the Passage West Ferry opens journeys out to the wider region which justifies that designation but I dont think it is a route that can honestly be claimed to be of national importance.

The R264 is about allowing the Seveso sites in the City Centre relocate to Marino Point where there is relatively deep water to allow for expansion of Port activities here. The jetty's and Quays are already in place, it is an ideal location to develop a new Port facility. It facilitates a significant sustainable development initiative underway in the Cork area. It's not just about access to Cobh. It's national importance is about increasing Port capacity and routes in the context of Brexit and the change currently underway in how we export and import products. It's nationally important in the context of supporting sustainable development initiatives, the NPF, 50% Brownfield development targets, etc.

Cookiemunster

rebs23 wrote: »

Coonagh to Knockalisheen?

https://www.limerick.ie/council/services/roads-and-travel/road-improvements-major-schemes/coonagh-knockalisheen
It says here the main contract is estimated at €35 Million on the Limerick Council site but DPER documents show it is in the range of €50-100 Million.
https://www.limerickpost.ie/2020/12/04/greens-allowing-grass-to-grow-on-northside-plans/
Also https://www.tipperarycoco.ie/roads/killaloe-bypass-shannon-bridge-crossing
Killaloe - Ballina Bridge crossing

It will be really interesting to see if Eamon Ryan signs off on these roads. The Killaloe-Ballina one has been in the mix for decades and is badly needed but it does provide for another route into Clare off the M7.
The Coonagh - Knockalisheen road is a 2.2km dual carriageway into Moyross. It's hard to justify that price tag of upwards of €100 Million for a regional road which will have very limited use as an access point to Moyross? I don't know if there are other reasons for it's construction such as stage 1 of the Limerick Northern Ring Road?

The Coonagh to Knockalisheen scheme will cost nowhere near €100m. Full funding was already allocated a few years back and €17m has already been spent. Phase 1 of raising the ground level to take the road and building the first 300m was finished around two years ago.

The tender for Phase 2 (costing €32m)to finish the road was put out in February and is ready to be awarded, but LCCC can't award it until Ryan signs off. He though wants to 'walk the land' in January before signing off.

It's purpose, as part of Limerick Regeneration, is to open up the Moyross area and it predates any Northern Ring Road plan.