Smart-card reader on 16A

Run_to_da_hills

trellheim wrote: »

yay, bus and luas means carrying two kinds of tickets now whoopee !

Not the first time, diring the last transition from the old snip off type single and 10 journey tickets, CIE had a grace period for several months. Eventually there will only be RFID smart cards availible on all public transport and all old ticket machines will be replaced with electronic touch pads and portal scanners that will track your movements :eek:

L1011

RTDH - you've already been directed to the conspiracy theories board, please move any "They'll track your movements!" stuff there...

KC61

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Not the first time, diring the last transition from the old snip off type single and 10 journey tickets, CIE had a grace period for several months. Eventually there will only be RFID smart cards availible on all public transport and all old ticket machines will be replaced with electronic touch pads and portal scanners that will track your movements :eek:

If you're that bothered by it - then just continue paying cash.

All Dublin Bus issued monthly and annual passes can now be read using the smartcard reader (where it's fitted on the bus) by holding the pass up to the reader rather than inserting the card into the validator, which should reduce the amount of faulty tickets.

Run_to_da_hills

KC61 wrote: »

If you're that bothered by it - then just continue paying cash.

I will use cash right up until the time that they phase it out. BTW A motorbike is my prefered form of transport, to-day was the first time on a bus in more than 6 months.

KC61

The smart card readers are now being installed in all depots, across the entire fleet of buses.

Run_to_da_hills

KC61 wrote: »

The smart card readers are now being installed in all depots, across the entire fleet of buses.

:eek:

Polar101

Noticed the smart-card readers were in place and in use in most of the buses I've been on recently.

The reader isn't interested in my IE issued annual short hop ticket, though. I guess I'll have to use the Shredder (tm) until next year.

CodeMonkey

So the DB smartcard is a different smartcard to the Luas one? That's madness when Hong Kong had the Octopus Card for over 10 years. The Octopus Card is what the London Oyster Card is trying to be.

Run_to_da_hills

Smart card readers will be another con.

If you forget to checkout or your ticket accidently fails to register as you pass in or out you will be charged for the FULL fare of that journey just as I was this weekend with my London Oyster card.

paulm17781

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Smart card readers will be another con.

If you forget to checkout or your ticket accidently fails to register as you pass in or out you will be charged for the FULL fare of that journey just as I was this weekend with my London Oyster card.

Would you prefer a system where it automatically tags you off without you having to remember? RFID would do that.

monument

Or the smartcard program could have been dumped before going way above budget, it could still be dumped before costing taxpayers even more.

Run_to_da_hills

paulm17781 wrote: »

Would you prefer a system where it automatically tags you off without you having to remember? RFID would do that.

The only time RFID will automatically tag you off is if the sensor is strong enough to read your card through a portal scanner when you leave the bus/rail station etc. It is entirely up to you to tag out.

Last Sunday I got on a tube at Tottinham Court Road and got off at Liverpool St. The machine was faulty at Tottinham Court Road and did not read my card properly. The attendant let me through and because my card was not properly tagged in I was charged the full rate of the red line on top of the cap of 5.50 which is supposed to be the maximum payable for all journeys made on a Sunday within zones 1 to 5.

At least with conventional tickets you have ink and stamp markings to prove evidence of boarding. With smart cards you are entirely at the mercy of what big brother tells you.

Sarn

I find the smart-card reader quite useful. It certainly gives off a loud enough beep so any fare dodgers are likely to be noticed by the driver.

I never thought of swiping out when I got off, but as I've an annual ticket there's no additional charge to worry about.

Run_to_da_hills

Sarn wrote: »

I find the smart-card reader quite useful. It certainly gives off a loud enough beep so any fare dodgers are likely to be noticed by the driver.

I never thought of swiping out when I got off, but as I've an annual ticket there's no additional charge to worry about.

On busses maybe but I have come across unattended turnstyles at tube & rail stations where the beep has been virtually inaudible. In London one only has to tag in on in city busses, they are charged a flat rate irrespective of the distance they travel. This is obviously a sweetener to get more and more people to change over to this system as with substancially reduced fares over cash on the underground.

armada104

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

On busses maybe but I have come across unattended turnstyles at tube & rail stations where the beep has been virtually inaudible. In London one only has to tag in on in city busses, they are charged a flat rate irrespective of the distance they travel. This is obviously a sweetener to get more and more people to change over to this system as with substancially reduced fares over cash on the underground.

Yes, it is. Openly so.

Your posts on this topic are becoming increasingly painful to read.

Run_to_da_hills

armada104 wrote: »

Yes, it is. Openly so.

Your posts on this topic are becoming increasingly painful to read.

Dont bother reading them if you don't want to know the truth about smart cards.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4800490.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3121652.stm

Inevitably

Yeah this should be the way

AlekSmart

RTDH is quite correct in posting about the potential of RFID technology.

However,in this thread we are focusing on the percieved benefits of it`s use for Public Transport purposes.

Notwithstanding any of the (supposedly) Ring Fenced T21 spending which was necessary to bring our creaking badly planned infrastructure into the 20th Century it is all to apparrent that Major efficiency advances are possible by simple tweaking of the mathodologies currently in use.

The benefits in boarding speed and total dwell time to the Bus service of a non contactless card are potentially huge,BUT.....even now with Bus Atha Cliath on the verge of in-service introduction we have NO clear vision of how its going to work.

As RTDH posts on London`s Oyster card,its worth remembering that it`s introduction was only possible in the aftermath of a TOTAL rethink on BusFare collection.
London had one of the most developed and intricate Bus Fare Stage systems in the world,which naturally was overseen and implimented by Thousands of Bus Conductors and Inspectors daily.
Even with the massive technological advances inherent in Oyster Technology,the ONLY effective workable and commonsense manner to operate Oyster was to totally dispense with Fare/Stage principles and replace it with a FLAT FARE.

There is NO OTHER WAY to EFFECTIVELY operate the Smart Card Technology we are slipping in here in Dublin.
Being Irish,however,entails us collectively trotting off on a crusade to prove otherwise.

Ponder for a moment upon the reality of our present system....
Hi Capacity-Hi Frequency Bus Services operating along semi-effective Bus Corridors,each with only a Single Door and Single Smart Card Reader (SCR).
However the Drivers Ticket Machine has another SCR to deal with those who will be seeking "Personal Services" and which will entail manual keystroking as currently utilized for the abundant Cash Transactions.

It`s hardly surprising that BAC is tepidly trialling its system on Annual of other Periodic tickets as it simply has little idea of how the hell it`s going to overcome the same Barriers that London had to break down.....However...Julie O Neill aint no Ken Livingston....that`s for sure so we continue to stumble blindly along a dark alley in the faint hope that something will come along that we can cobble together as an acceptable compromise.

IF Julie O Neill had been on her game and effectively lobbying the relevant Ministers we would FIRSTLY have had every Dept of Social & Family Affairs Free Transport Scheme Pass replaced by a Smart Card long in advance of the Hardware Installation. (Just look at Translink... :rolleyes: 0

Instead Ms O Neill presided over a sortofa-kindofa introduction whereby the Largest single issuer of Transport Pass holders in the State refused to even consider the Smart Card principle until the 11th hour and in doing so caused further serious delays to the entire project.

Is this evidence of a committed,well informed or even vaguely interested senior Departmental Administration....I suggest not.

Compare however,the deeply intimate and closely monitored interest and attention to detail Ms O Neills Department has lavished upon the attempts of Bus Atha Cliath to improve its own route structure and to cater for a potentially lucrative expanding market....No comparison as Ms O Neills staff display a committment to intricate hair-splitting and even hair-loss over not allowing ANY alterations which may(or may not) conflict with the judgement in a pending EU legal process....

It now also appears inevitable that a serious amount of In-Fighting is about to break out over the putative Dublin Transportation Authority and specifically the "Authority" bit...already Dublin City Councillors have suddenly woken up to its potential to do them out of a few hot-dinners....:o

BUT But but ...to return to Smart Cards (Irish Style)......NO further progress will be possible until the current Bus Fare/Stage structure is scrapped....FLAT FARE is the ONLY FARE.......:eek:

markf909

Now, now go easy on poor Julie

Don't you know she said herself she can't sleep until the integrated ticketing project is complete.

Run_to_da_hills

AlekSmart wrote: »

BUT But but ...to return to Smart Cards (Irish Style)......NO further progress will be possible until the current Bus Fare/Stage structure is scrapped....FLAT FARE is the ONLY FARE.......:eek:

CIE won’t buy flat fares, because it makes too much sense and they will loose too much. They never took to "time based" interchangeable commuter tickets which has been the norm throughout Europe transit systems for decades.

If they were to have a flat fare rate they could split up longer routes so that you will have to get several busses to complete a journey.

Stage fares vary between e1.05 to e2.00 from 1 to 23 stages and then on to 4.30 for outer suberban routes. If they decide to make a flat fare of e2.00 you are going to get alott of locals that use the bus for small hops kicking up stink about a 100% increase in fares. http://www.dublinbus.ie/fares_and_tickets/fares.asp

L1011

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

CIE won’t buy flat fares, because it makes too much sense and they will loose too much. They never took to "time based" interchangeable commuter tickets which has been the norm throughout Europe transit systems for decades.

Travel 90

Yes I know its buses only, but, precedent is there.

Run_to_da_hills

MYOB wrote: »

Travel 90

Yes I know its buses only, but, precedent is there.

Just shows how long ago since I have used busses.

dazberry

AlekSmart wrote: »

BUT But but ...to return to Smart Cards (Irish Style)

Well that's the catch really, "Smart Cards (Irish Style)". There's nothing smart about any of these cards - they're prepaid "credit" cards - like the old eircom phone cards. Convenient in that you don't have to carry cash - absolutely, maybe save 5/10/15c here or there - a bonus - but lets bring this back to brass tacs for a minute.

I have a Luas smart card, AFAIK it charges me €1.75 for 3 zones on the Red line. Lets imagine for one minute that it was a nice card - so one day - outside my regular once a day usage I use 3 x €1.75 and exceed - €5.00 - imagine in a Lennonseque way that my nice card said to itself - "well there's a flexi ticket that's €5.00 per day so your daily fare will now be capped at €5 thank you please". Imagine doing this 3 or 4 days in a row (either with a running total or capped values) and once I hit €18.00 my card says, well there's a weekly combi - so you get the next 3 days free. Nice.

So I'm on the bus with my new DB nice card, and I hop into town in the 8-13 stage structure at €1.70. So I hop on another bus within 90 minutes, and my card says to itself - "well this is within the realms of travel 90" and so lets be nice and not charge for the second journey, or any "tag on" in the 90 minute period - Nice.

Ok, so we have credit cards, and my newly termed nice cards. I'm purposely using the term nice. So lets look at my take on a smart card - because its transport agnostic.

Well first I travel into town on the Luas at 1.75. Within 90 minutes I tag on a 51b/c/68/69 and tag off within the Luas zone 3. My smart card sees that the cheapest option here is the travel 90 and at best refunds me 5c, at worst doesn't charge me for the second journey within the scope of travel 90. Smart.

So say I pop into town in the 8-13 stage fare - and plan to continue out to Howth but I miss the 90 minute window - so my second journey is 13+ stages at £2.00 Bus or €2.10 Dart. Instead of going on the complete lash with my mate Steve in Howth - I decide to hop back on the 22.55 DART to Connolly at €2.10. At this point its €1.70+€2.00+€2.10 = €5.80. So I hop off the DART full of beer, run into the horrible jacks in Connolly, then down and tag on the Luas, and finally tag off in Zone 3. Well being smart my Luas trip is free under travel 90 rules - a daily total of €5.80.

Can we do better? Well say the €5.00 daily flexi ticket applies to all "medium" (within those zones) - well my daily total doesn't exceed €5, my €2.10 DART is only €1.30 and my LUAS is free.

Ok, maybe there's a €6.00 daily flexi ticket and I don't meet it because of the last travel 90, but because I've spent €18 in the last week after my first trip that I get the rest of the day "for free" under the concept of a weekly ticket.

There's really so much that could be done here - my examples are a bit disjointed and pretty linear at that and I haven't messed with fair structures - but there are really so many opportunities here if ppl really bothered to look.

D.

Michael Collins

That's exactly the way it should be, I think that's how it works in London ain't it? If you could have gotten the journey cheaper using a special ticket it will retrospectively give you that ticket instead of individual fare prices. It just seems so far away given we can't even get the basics of integrated ticketing right...

We'll be lucky if here we're even just informed by the system that you "could" have gotten it cheaper by getting a special weekly ticket or whatever. They'll probably want to keep it a secret...

dazberry wrote: »

...I decide to hop back on the 22.55 DART to Connolly at €2.10. At this point its €1.70+€2.00+€2.10 = €5.80. So I hop off the DART full of beer, run into the horrible jacks in Connolly, then down and tag on the Luas, and finally tag off in Zone 3...

You remembered to tag-off after all that beer?

dazberry

Michael Collins wrote: »

You remembered to tag-off after all that beer?

hehe yeah - its become such a habit that I've always managed to tag off the Luas regardless of the level of beer in my system The readers are (at my stop) really poorly positioned, so the third door from the top lines up with the reader - so if I'm anyway further up the tram (normally) I need to walk back to the reader.

D.