Smart-card reader on 16A

flogen

I was getting the 16A home tonight (After half 9) and noticed that there was a smart-card reader placed over the traditional card reader beside the doors.

So has this been rolled out on all buses or is this just the prototype? And does it mean the Dublin Bus smart-card system is on the way?

I notice tomorrow's SBP has an article on ITS being "on track but I know Dublin Bus plan to roll out a smart-card system of their own and eventually make it integrate with the Luas system, rather than have it integrating from day 1.

I have to say - I'm glad to see that they're at least thinking about putting the reader by the normal card reader - the driver's ticket machine seems to have a reader on it too but would involve each passenger sticking his or her hand half way into the driver's cab just to get their card swiped. Relying on that is bound to slow things down more than anything.

MiniD

These have been fitted to a number of buses over the past few weeks. I think Summerhill garage is the first to trial the new Smart Card system on route 123. The smart card feature is now built into all new annual passes and will be phased in on other tickets soon.

John R

The whole fleet was wired up and the bases for the readers installed over 2 years ago, the heads are being attached now as DB are going to use the cards for their current range of tickets.

As MiniD said the midi-buses on the 123 is being used to test them and they are installing the heads on the rest of the fleet starting with Summerhill.

Currently only staff passes and annual bus-only tickets have been issued with chips, they are dual tickets; smartcard and mag stripe. The rest of the range will be available in the coming months.

Run_to_da_hills

CIE are currently in the process of copying London Transports "Oyster card", These cards are registered in your name, every movement you make on Dublin Bus, Commuter rail, Dart and the Luas will be pin pointed, eventually these cards will be used for petty cash transactions such as having a coffee or buying a newspaper which will also pinpoint your movements. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3121652.stm

John R

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

CIE are currently in the process of copying London Transports "Oyster card", These cards are registered in your name, every movement you make on Dublin Bus, Commuter rail, Dart and the Luas will be pin pointed, eventually these cards will be used for petty cash transactions such as having a coffee or buying a newspaper which will also pinpoint your movements. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3121652.stm

You can walk into any tube station or one of about 10,000 newsagents in London and buy an oyster card without giving any identification whatsoever.

You can choose to register them online if you wish and if it is stolen/lost you can get your credit put on a new card.

Annual/monthly tickets require identification although they are still available on paper tickets as well which do not provide tracking info. most people that can switch have done as paper season tickets were prime robbery/pickpocket targets in London and a stolen registered oyster can be immediately cancelled off the system.

As for tracking people buying other stuff with them, that is no different to credit cards. The extra use of them has not really happened yet, not really sure it ever will.

It certainly would not be the first attempt at "electronic cash" that has been tried, afaik none have really taken off so far. This idea was rolled out when the integrated ticket system was initially being pushed here but as the core scheme has run into trouble those sort of extras are not going to be a priority for a long time.

At present CIE (Dublin Bus only ATM) are only planning a limited roll-out to replace the current mag stripe tickets, it is the much delayed RPA integrated system that will be similar in operation to oyster.

flogen

Thanks for the info - hadn't realised that DB always planned on putting the readers in a better place than beside the cash machine but am glad to hear it.

Will be interested to see how the roll out goes and how long it takes them to integrate the two systems.

On the issue of using the cards for other purchases, it might be interesting to note that Mastercard is rolling out a 'PayPass' system in the US which is based on the same technology. From what I can see on their site, you don't have to worry about the pin if your purchase is under $25 so I suppose that's where the convenience comes into it.

Run_to_da_hills

John R wrote: »

You can walk into any tube station or one of about 10,000 newsagents in London and buy an oyster card without giving any identification whatsoever.
You can choose to register them online if you wish and if it is stolen/lost you can get your credit put on a new card..

LRT are offering incentives to those that register such as the ability to retrieve lost credit from lost or damaged tickets, MP3 downloads, etc. Paper tickets are now in the process of being phased out completly. Ever since the July tube bombings of 2005 LRT, the LOndon Metropolitan police are doing their utmost best to try and get every commuter in London Oyster cards and they are doing a good job. Give it a few years and your biometric details will also be stored on these cards like your photo id, these will be a form of passport/ID in themselves. America since 9/11 is rolling in the exact same idea with the Real ID act HR418, only that London has a massive public transport dependancy a driver licence form of ID would be impractical. http://www.deloitte.com/dtt/press_release/0,1014,sid%253D2834%2526cid%253D75916,00.html

John R wrote: »

As for tracking people buying other stuff with them, that is no different to credit cards. The extra use of them has not really happened yet, not really sure it ever will. .

There is a difference, Credit cards involve maps and charts by typing in pin numbers etc and are really only used for larger purchases, Oystercards, "Mondex" and "Visacash" are contactless and instant with no ID or pin required although their cash withdrawl limit is only about 10 Quid for each transaction.

John R wrote: »

It certainly would not be the first attempt at "electronic cash" that has been tried, afaik none have really taken off so far. This idea was rolled out when the integrated ticket system was initially being pushed here but as the core scheme has run into trouble those sort of extras are not going to be a priority for a long time..

Electronic cash was tried on a pilot basis in Ennis Co Clare in 1997 with Visacash but It fell flat on its face. As long as cash is availible no one will buy it. However sneak it in with travel cards and people will buy it

John R wrote: »

At present CIE (Dublin Bus only ATM) are only planning a limited roll-out to replace the current mag stripe tickets, it is the much delayed RPA integrated system that will be similar in operation to oyster.

It will only be a matter of time, go to any major city in the world, all inner city transport is integrated, it will be one of the incentives to roll out smart cards. Barcelona the metro is compatible with RENFE, busses and trams, Sanfransisco the same with BART and Muni.

thebman

Don't we basically have an electronic cash system with Laser cards?

Most places accept them. Either that or electronic cash is something stupid like Microsoft points for the real world.

Run_to_da_hills

brim4brim wrote: »

Don't we basically have an electronic cash system with Laser cards?

Most places accept them. Either that or electronic cash is something stupid like Microsoft points for the real world.

Laser cards are not contact less yet! give it time and they will be and like transit smart cards you would want to carry them in a lead wallet to conceal your identity !!!. The following Video would depict what it would be like if you did not conceal your RFID chipped card in a future department store or metro station. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVmD4iTXRLE

thebman

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Laser cards are not contact less yet! give it time and they will be and like transit smart cards you would want to carry them in a lead wallet to conceal your identity !!!. The following Video would depict what it would be like if you did not conceal your RFID chipped card in a future department store or metro station. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVmD4iTXRLE

I don't think people will allow their privacy to be violated like that. If a system like that was being rolled out, the media or bloggers would be all over it so that it could not be missed by regular Joe who doesn't know about digital things like watches.

I think enough people (including myself) would protest against such a systems roll out that it would end up having to be scraped.

I heard about that system years ago. Seems a bit far fetched. Where the hell are they going to store all that data on everyone and how would they protect it. The opposition would have a field day if the government allowed such a system that violates peoples privacy to be introduced IMO.

Run_to_da_hills

brim4brim wrote: »

I don't think people will allow their privacy to be violated like that. If a system like that was being rolled out, the media or bloggers would be all over it so that it could not be missed by regular Joe who doesn't know about digital things like watches.

It already has been rolled out, look at our RFID based passports, If the Irish Government were to insist on them several years ago they would have been voted out, there would have been uproar over privacy issues but no, Sept 11 happened and we were conditioned that this was the way to go to fight global terrorism . Do you know that the HR418 Act is due to be implimented in the USA this May? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REAL_ID_Act THere is uproar in the states at the moment over it, several states alone have voted it illegal.

brim4brim wrote: »

I think enough people (including myself) would protest against such a systems roll out that it would end up having to be scraped.
I heard about that system years ago. Seems a bit far fetched. Where the hell are they going to store all that data on everyone and how would they protect it. The opposition would have a field day if the government allowed such a system that violates peoples privacy to be introduced IMO.

The problem would be that there may be no oposition!

What about all the cameras across the city? It used to be the case that "one was no more than 10' from a rat in Dublin". Now the same could apply about cctv, they are everywhere, on the dart, Luas, streets, petrol stations, car parks, public parks, shopping malls, harbours, recycle ctrs, and there is no uproar about privacy invasion.

John R

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Sept 11 happened and we were conditioned that this was the way to go to fightt Global treeorism.

Damn those Trees, damn them all to hell.

markpb

John R wrote: »

Currently only staff passes and annual bus-only tickets have been issued with chips, they are dual tickets; smartcard and mag stripe. The rest of the range will be available in the coming months.

Monthly bus/luas tickets have been converted from this month onwards too.

pigeonbutler

My Annual Bus/Rail ticket seems to have some sort of RFID chip in it. Whenever I put my ticket near the barriers at Connolly/Docklands a blue light flashes on them. Although I still have to insert the ticket (and get the green light) for the barrier to open.

Of course I discovered this the hard way by stupidly trying to wave my ticket and walk right on through.

astrofool

Can these smart card be "loaded" with pre pay cards, i.e. weekly/monthly travel ticket for bus, luas or dart?

markpb

The ones I've seen are disposable contactless smartcards so the normal weekly/monthly/annual tickets will be sc instead of (or as well as) magstripe. I wonder if there are any plans for stored value / purse cards like the Luas?

monument

markpb wrote: »

Monthly bus/luas tickets have been converted from this month onwards too.

Any idea if the 'smartcard' element of these work on just DB, or on Luas too?

brim4brim wrote: »

I don't think people will allow their privacy to be violated like that. ....

Have a read of this...
http://www.tjmcintyre.com/2008/01/case-against-data-retention.html

John R

monument wrote: »

Any idea if the 'smartcard' element of these work on just DB, or on Luas too?

There is no need to use them on boarding/alighting luas. They are season tickets not stored-value so there is no point in tagging on/off. Inspectors can visually check them the same as before or use their readers to check them.

Run_to_da_hills

John R wrote: »

There is no need to use them on boarding/alighting luas. They are season tickets not stored-value so there is no point in tagging on/off. Inspectors can visually check them the same as before or use their readers to check them.

You can guarantee they will insist on you logging on and off as they do in LRT, this is necessary for them to make an account of "who is on board".

markpb

They've managed okay so far without any validation. Metro North is rumoured to be an honour system as well when it opens.

Run_to_da_hills

markpb wrote: »

They've managed okay so far without any validation. Metro North is rumoured to be an honour system as well when it opens.

If they install "portal scanners" they will know whose on board without having any validation

http://news.thomasnet.com/fullstory/807436

John R

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

You can guarantee they will insist on you logging on and off as they do in LRT, this is necessary for them to make an account of "who is on board".

:rolleyes: The conspiracy theory board is this way > http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=576


By LRT I assume you mean TfL. They do not insist on season ticket on oyster cards being logged on at tram or DLR open stations, that is only for pre-pay cards otherwise there is no way of taking the fare and as I already told you there is no requirement for pre-pay holders to supply ANY personal information.

Run_to_da_hills

John R wrote: »

:rolleyes: The conspiracy theory board is this way > http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=576


By LRT I assume you mean TfL. They do not insist on season ticket on oyster cards being logged on at tram or DLR open stations, that is only for pre-pay cards otherwise there is no way of taking the fare and as I already told you there is no requirement for pre-pay holders to supply ANY personal information.

Not for long, London of all places, the Big Brother capital of the world! http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5015826.stm

monument

John R wrote: »

There is no need to use them on boarding/alighting luas. They are season tickets not stored-value so there is no point in tagging on/off. Inspectors can visually check them the same as before or use their readers to check them.

Yes, I was more so asking is the tech currently readable on both systems.

trellheim

the big question : do the existing LUAS cards work ?

markpb

monument wrote: »

Yes, I was more so asking is the tech currently readable on both systems.

Probably not.

trellheim wrote: »

the big question : do the existing LUAS cards work ?

Probably not.

The two systems are probably completely independent because the govt and RPA screwed up royally. In any event, DB's card stores pre-loaded tickets, the Luas card stores pre-loaded value so there's no way to make them interoperate at the moment.

Michael Collins

John R wrote: »

:rolleyes: The conspiracy theory board is this way > http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=576


By LRT I assume you mean TfL. They do not insist on season ticket on oyster cards being logged on at tram or DLR open stations, that is only for pre-pay cards otherwise there is no way of taking the fare and as I already told you there is no requirement for pre-pay holders to supply ANY personal information.

True, but Dublin Bus don't really operate on an honour system, since in theory you shouldn't be able to board a bus without either paying cash or putting your ticket in the card reader. So if they go to a system where you can just walk on without actively validating your ticket, they'll need to employ a lot more inspectors!

I think most people caught fare evading on Dublin Bus have actually paid something - just no enough for their journey.

Of course they really need to do away with stages and moved to a zone system for integrated ticketing to work, but that's another debate!

Victor

Talking to a 16/a driver about a month ago, he suggested that the smart card readers weren't working as expected and would be removed for the short-term. I think it was failing to talk to the ticket machine (which records the data).

Red Alert

The smart card 'heads' are actually just plastic boxes with identification markings for people using them. The readers are physically there already and are beside the mag stripe reader.

Maybe DB should just sign up to the RPA one quickly - using smart card chips in paper tickets is bad for the environment i'd imagine too.

KC61

The smart card readers are currently being rolled out across Phibsboro Depot's buses having been installed on the Summerhill fleet.

trellheim

yay, bus and luas means carrying two kinds of tickets now whoopee !

Run_to_da_hills

trellheim wrote: »

yay, bus and luas means carrying two kinds of tickets now whoopee !

Not the first time, diring the last transition from the old snip off type single and 10 journey tickets, CIE had a grace period for several months. Eventually there will only be RFID smart cards availible on all public transport and all old ticket machines will be replaced with electronic touch pads and portal scanners that will track your movements :eek:

L1011

RTDH - you've already been directed to the conspiracy theories board, please move any "They'll track your movements!" stuff there...

KC61

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Not the first time, diring the last transition from the old snip off type single and 10 journey tickets, CIE had a grace period for several months. Eventually there will only be RFID smart cards availible on all public transport and all old ticket machines will be replaced with electronic touch pads and portal scanners that will track your movements :eek:

If you're that bothered by it - then just continue paying cash.

All Dublin Bus issued monthly and annual passes can now be read using the smartcard reader (where it's fitted on the bus) by holding the pass up to the reader rather than inserting the card into the validator, which should reduce the amount of faulty tickets.

Run_to_da_hills

KC61 wrote: »

If you're that bothered by it - then just continue paying cash.

I will use cash right up until the time that they phase it out. BTW A motorbike is my prefered form of transport, to-day was the first time on a bus in more than 6 months.

KC61

The smart card readers are now being installed in all depots, across the entire fleet of buses.

Run_to_da_hills

KC61 wrote: »

The smart card readers are now being installed in all depots, across the entire fleet of buses.

:eek:

Polar101

Noticed the smart-card readers were in place and in use in most of the buses I've been on recently.

The reader isn't interested in my IE issued annual short hop ticket, though. I guess I'll have to use the Shredder (tm) until next year.

CodeMonkey

So the DB smartcard is a different smartcard to the Luas one? That's madness when Hong Kong had the Octopus Card for over 10 years. The Octopus Card is what the London Oyster Card is trying to be.

Run_to_da_hills

Smart card readers will be another con.

If you forget to checkout or your ticket accidently fails to register as you pass in or out you will be charged for the FULL fare of that journey just as I was this weekend with my London Oyster card.

paulm17781

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Smart card readers will be another con.

If you forget to checkout or your ticket accidently fails to register as you pass in or out you will be charged for the FULL fare of that journey just as I was this weekend with my London Oyster card.

Would you prefer a system where it automatically tags you off without you having to remember? RFID would do that.

monument

Or the smartcard program could have been dumped before going way above budget, it could still be dumped before costing taxpayers even more.

Run_to_da_hills

paulm17781 wrote: »

Would you prefer a system where it automatically tags you off without you having to remember? RFID would do that.

The only time RFID will automatically tag you off is if the sensor is strong enough to read your card through a portal scanner when you leave the bus/rail station etc. It is entirely up to you to tag out.

Last Sunday I got on a tube at Tottinham Court Road and got off at Liverpool St. The machine was faulty at Tottinham Court Road and did not read my card properly. The attendant let me through and because my card was not properly tagged in I was charged the full rate of the red line on top of the cap of 5.50 which is supposed to be the maximum payable for all journeys made on a Sunday within zones 1 to 5.

At least with conventional tickets you have ink and stamp markings to prove evidence of boarding. With smart cards you are entirely at the mercy of what big brother tells you.

Sarn

I find the smart-card reader quite useful. It certainly gives off a loud enough beep so any fare dodgers are likely to be noticed by the driver.

I never thought of swiping out when I got off, but as I've an annual ticket there's no additional charge to worry about.

Run_to_da_hills

Sarn wrote: »

I find the smart-card reader quite useful. It certainly gives off a loud enough beep so any fare dodgers are likely to be noticed by the driver.

I never thought of swiping out when I got off, but as I've an annual ticket there's no additional charge to worry about.

On busses maybe but I have come across unattended turnstyles at tube & rail stations where the beep has been virtually inaudible. In London one only has to tag in on in city busses, they are charged a flat rate irrespective of the distance they travel. This is obviously a sweetener to get more and more people to change over to this system as with substancially reduced fares over cash on the underground.

armada104

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

On busses maybe but I have come across unattended turnstyles at tube & rail stations where the beep has been virtually inaudible. In London one only has to tag in on in city busses, they are charged a flat rate irrespective of the distance they travel. This is obviously a sweetener to get more and more people to change over to this system as with substancially reduced fares over cash on the underground.

Yes, it is. Openly so.

Your posts on this topic are becoming increasingly painful to read.

Run_to_da_hills

armada104 wrote: »

Yes, it is. Openly so.

Your posts on this topic are becoming increasingly painful to read.

Dont bother reading them if you don't want to know the truth about smart cards.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4800490.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3121652.stm

Inevitably

Yeah this should be the way

AlekSmart

RTDH is quite correct in posting about the potential of RFID technology.

However,in this thread we are focusing on the percieved benefits of it`s use for Public Transport purposes.

Notwithstanding any of the (supposedly) Ring Fenced T21 spending which was necessary to bring our creaking badly planned infrastructure into the 20th Century it is all to apparrent that Major efficiency advances are possible by simple tweaking of the mathodologies currently in use.

The benefits in boarding speed and total dwell time to the Bus service of a non contactless card are potentially huge,BUT.....even now with Bus Atha Cliath on the verge of in-service introduction we have NO clear vision of how its going to work.

As RTDH posts on London`s Oyster card,its worth remembering that it`s introduction was only possible in the aftermath of a TOTAL rethink on BusFare collection.
London had one of the most developed and intricate Bus Fare Stage systems in the world,which naturally was overseen and implimented by Thousands of Bus Conductors and Inspectors daily.
Even with the massive technological advances inherent in Oyster Technology,the ONLY effective workable and commonsense manner to operate Oyster was to totally dispense with Fare/Stage principles and replace it with a FLAT FARE.

There is NO OTHER WAY to EFFECTIVELY operate the Smart Card Technology we are slipping in here in Dublin.
Being Irish,however,entails us collectively trotting off on a crusade to prove otherwise.

Ponder for a moment upon the reality of our present system....
Hi Capacity-Hi Frequency Bus Services operating along semi-effective Bus Corridors,each with only a Single Door and Single Smart Card Reader (SCR).
However the Drivers Ticket Machine has another SCR to deal with those who will be seeking "Personal Services" and which will entail manual keystroking as currently utilized for the abundant Cash Transactions.

It`s hardly surprising that BAC is tepidly trialling its system on Annual of other Periodic tickets as it simply has little idea of how the hell it`s going to overcome the same Barriers that London had to break down.....However...Julie O Neill aint no Ken Livingston....that`s for sure so we continue to stumble blindly along a dark alley in the faint hope that something will come along that we can cobble together as an acceptable compromise.

IF Julie O Neill had been on her game and effectively lobbying the relevant Ministers we would FIRSTLY have had every Dept of Social & Family Affairs Free Transport Scheme Pass replaced by a Smart Card long in advance of the Hardware Installation. (Just look at Translink... :rolleyes: 0

Instead Ms O Neill presided over a sortofa-kindofa introduction whereby the Largest single issuer of Transport Pass holders in the State refused to even consider the Smart Card principle until the 11th hour and in doing so caused further serious delays to the entire project.

Is this evidence of a committed,well informed or even vaguely interested senior Departmental Administration....I suggest not.

Compare however,the deeply intimate and closely monitored interest and attention to detail Ms O Neills Department has lavished upon the attempts of Bus Atha Cliath to improve its own route structure and to cater for a potentially lucrative expanding market....No comparison as Ms O Neills staff display a committment to intricate hair-splitting and even hair-loss over not allowing ANY alterations which may(or may not) conflict with the judgement in a pending EU legal process....

It now also appears inevitable that a serious amount of In-Fighting is about to break out over the putative Dublin Transportation Authority and specifically the "Authority" bit...already Dublin City Councillors have suddenly woken up to its potential to do them out of a few hot-dinners....:o

BUT But but ...to return to Smart Cards (Irish Style)......NO further progress will be possible until the current Bus Fare/Stage structure is scrapped....FLAT FARE is the ONLY FARE.......:eek:

markf909

Now, now go easy on poor Julie

Don't you know she said herself she can't sleep until the integrated ticketing project is complete.

Run_to_da_hills

AlekSmart wrote: »

BUT But but ...to return to Smart Cards (Irish Style)......NO further progress will be possible until the current Bus Fare/Stage structure is scrapped....FLAT FARE is the ONLY FARE.......:eek:

CIE won’t buy flat fares, because it makes too much sense and they will loose too much. They never took to "time based" interchangeable commuter tickets which has been the norm throughout Europe transit systems for decades.

If they were to have a flat fare rate they could split up longer routes so that you will have to get several busses to complete a journey.

Stage fares vary between e1.05 to e2.00 from 1 to 23 stages and then on to 4.30 for outer suberban routes. If they decide to make a flat fare of e2.00 you are going to get alott of locals that use the bus for small hops kicking up stink about a 100% increase in fares. http://www.dublinbus.ie/fares_and_tickets/fares.asp